EPTNomination Mafia
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I found phagga's entry into the game pretty weak (of all the things to talk about he picked out something pretty minor) and his "coaching" of Mocsta very unnatural. What are your thoughts on him? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
If you think he is scum, then lay it out clearly and precisely why. Don't needle him. Don't call him names. If you think he is calling you names a la scum, incorporate that into your case. Because not only does your interaction make the thread harder to read, it allows scum to lurk. Yes - that's right. Lurking is pretty easy when townies are ripping at each other's throats (Right now I read you both on the town side) and like prplhz said, you need to step back and refocus, because the method you are taking isn't the most helpful. So I instead choose to focus on someone like phagga, on whom no one has commented on. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 07 2013 01:41 phagga wrote: Regarding Palmar, I dont like how he throws a vote without explanation and then in his next post he implies: "Guys, I got this really good plan for tomorrow so don't lynch me today even though I might be lurking, mkay?" Sloosh, do you mean me talking about lurkers or about Mocsta/Oats? I'm going to wait on what prplhz thinks before clarifying it to the subject we are talking about. What do you think about Djodref? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote: I see what Sloosh is saying about Phagga, and I agree on some level that his entrance to the thread has been weak, and relatively quiet so far. There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess, however, so what I need from him is some more meaningful contribution on things that aren't setup. That also goes for VE, who was here early spouting setup info, and then dropped off. My strongest mafia read is Mocsta. This game has begun exactly the same way as NMM XXXV where Oats was town and Mocsta the mafia. I think getting a lynch rolling on him is an excellent idea. Any doubters need to go read the game I mentioned and see the similarities, and then read his LIX filter to see the difference between this game and his more amicable town game. Palmar needs to not lynch prplhz. I sense the troll with Palmar on this one, so hopefully he doesn't act the same way he did in LVIII and derail day 1. Prplhz is looking decently townie, I will not jump on lynching him any time soon. The onus is on you to show that he is mafia, not on us to show that he is town. If it is as clear as you indicate, I'm sure it won't be hard to make a case compare and contrasting his play this game to the ones that you cite. Additionally, please expound on the things that make you doubt his scumminess. I've already asked him for a specific contribution, so as we wait you can tell me what sticks out. It helps us get a clearer read on him, but also helps me get a clearer read on you (thinking process etc.) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
What's most concerning for me, is that for you, Phagga should be just as guilty of these tells: Focus on lurkers: On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: He calls out "lurkers" to appear to contribute and care about the town atmosphere, something I readily see as a common trait in his mafia game and this one. On February 06 2013 17:05 phagga wrote: Short on time. I agree with the lurker lynching early as we cannot differentiate between lurkers and scum later on and we have no mechanic to clear lurkers / confirm them town. Will post more later. On February 06 2013 18:09 phagga wrote: I just want to add something shorty in terms of lynching lurkers: D1 lynches are often crapshots, Kitaman analysed in anohter thread that town would be better off RNG the D1 lynch generally than trying to analyse and find scum. Combine this with the beformentioned fact that we have mechanics to differentiate lukers from scum or get rid of them, I therefore embrace a lynch on a lurker on who we cannot get an alignement read, should one be available. And calling out bad play rather than scum play: On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: He's making the same sort of argument about Oats this game that he did about Sn0 in the other game, that their play isn't "optimal" and they are "helping mafia". It's a fabricated read, in my eyes, and a fabricated contribution to say such things. It doesn't matter how a player is playing versus how you think the ideal town player SHOULD play, it matters if that player is playing in a way you know mafia would play. On February 06 2013 18:09 phagga wrote: Regarding you, Mocsta, I don't agree with VE that you tried to establish a good town atmosphere. You are writing calm, but some things you posted like are not helping creating a good town atmosphere. Did you really think Oats would say "oh well, I guess he's right, can I get a replacement GMarshal?" This subtle stabs have a tendency to poison town atmoshpere much more than the shouting of Oats did, and I did not like this at all. Considering that everything else you posted is barely alignement indicative, I'll be interested to see more from you. So it is a huge deal that you, have some things that make you doubt his scumminess when you are oh so certain that Mocsta is mafia. I think you are lying and I want you to put your money where your mouth is. What about Phagga makes you doubt his scumminess? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Also if you could start consolidating your posts that would be great - a huge advantage in this setup is that scum have one less avenue to bury good posts / posts on the right track (by NK the dude). Take away spamming and they have even less to work with, and are forced to confront tough issues / take stances etc. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
In fact, I never said that I think Phagga is mafia. So that's strike two. The topic is "why is yamato calling Mocsta scum and isn't calling Phagga scum when they share the same tells?" On February 07 2013 03:35 slOosh wrote: What's most concerning for me, is that for you, Phagga should be just as guilty of these tells: It doesn't matter how valid the tells are. Even the most stubborn and illogical of townies adhere strictly to their way of thinking. You are displaying a contradiction and the backlash / defensive attacks don't look too good. What about Phagga did you find that made you doubt your scumminess? Until you can adequately answer this, I'm devoting myself for your lynch today. ##Vote: yamato77 | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 07 2013 03:53 VisceraEyes wrote: Lemme go take a look at phagga. I noticed that he was your top read only a few posts ago, now he's "to a lesser degree". Should I assume you're disliking yamato more now? Let's be clear with our language. I never called Phagga scum. Just because I'm interested in a person doesn't mean I think they are scum. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 07 2013 04:10 yamato77 wrote: So, I'm mafia because I won't tell you why I think phagga might be town? Lol. Okay. Sure. Waste today thinking that. Lol dodge more. You are mafia because I called you out on a bs read and you can't back it up. Only scum make b.s. reads because their knowledge precedes that of town and they jump the gun as in your case. If everyone would note yamato's dismissive and condescending attitude in his approach to this topic, that would be great. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Thank you yamato. The clear progression of your thinking process indicates to me that this is indeed a misunderstanding (based on how you treat town / mafia tells). At the time of my post I chose to talk about phagga to: - Get a better read of phagga - Get a read on prplhz - Do something more productive than focus on the messy Mocsta - Oats feud You could say I wanted to pressure him, for I found some blips on the radar. They weren't that big, but they were what I had at the time. If it helps you understand my thinking process, yamato & phagga scum => yamato soft defends ally phagga yamato scum phagga town => yamato is not taking hard stances As you can see in these two scenarios, your alignment isn't wholly dependent on phagga's. I needed to know your "town" tells, because mafia can dish out shallow reads and there's no way to know what they mean unless you call them out on it and make them provide the reasoning behind it. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Oats, I've played more games but I never counted. I started with Newbie Mini III which gives you somewhat of an idea of when I started playing. If you are looking for meta, go for my older games because I've rolled scum / 3rd party for ... 3~5 games now? Additionally, be clear with your language. I don't mind you saying "I want to see more", but don't say "start contributing" as if I haven't done anything. Cause that's total b.s. Reading up on the newer posts concerning Djodref. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Jay, who I'd like to talk to is prplhz, as his opportunity to comment on phagga was lost / buried / whatever. Mocsta: Honestly speaking I think I need to sleep on it before having another crack at it. Which is what I'll be doing since I've procrastinated far too much work and need to get it done. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
That said I was able to do a clean read with the JX flip in mind and I've gotten some pretty strong reads both town and scum from it. I have almost no doubt I'll be up for nomination tomorrow so I'm going to sit on my reads until dawn. Because I'm definite that scum will always put 3 townies up - they won't bother risking putting one of their own into the group unless it is certain that someone else will get lynched. And right now, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen. That said, we don't want to focus the discussion primarily on the candidates tomorrow. Because if three townies go up (probably the case), it is to scum's advantage to focus discussion on them. 1) Because it means attention drawn away from their selves. 2) Gives them ammunition to work off for future lynches. In any case the discussion should also be driven and moderated and lead by the candidates. You know it's gonna be at least 2 townies, so by following their lead we will have good (town motivated) direction. mmm .... for clarity's sake: I am sitting on my reads because I also have the unique advantage of a clean slate. If I give out a wrong town read, they can put one of themselves up and "gang up" on the 3rd townie. Thus with the flip I'd look bad and they can always draw attention away from themselves by pushing it onto me. If you are concerned by my absence, just let me take front and center tomorrow, so that I can have a great showing and (re)convince you otherwise. I think we had a great D1, and I highly encourage everyone to reread it. heh ... sounded like I was running for mayor or something :p | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 08 2013 20:34 Mocsta wrote: Sl0sh pls spell it out for me. Why are u certain u will be up for the lynch? I thought that comment was odd. I'll address this and also the idea of 3 townie nominations, because they are the same issue. In this setup, there are two things that scum want gone. 1) Strong town players (i.e. they are good at catching scum) 2) (Relatively) "Confirmed" town players (i.e. people who are hard to mislynch) The first is obvious, the second is because if they have less people to target, then the only people left to target are themselves. The optimal scum play is to therefore make nominations in a way that can eliminate from this pool of people. For instance, say there were three more JX esque players - townies with much suspicion on them. Scum would be shooting themselves in the foot by putting these three up for nomination because even though it results in a mislynch, it aids town because it means someone who is 1) or 2) didn't get mislynched, which causes headaches for them late game. I assume I'll get put up because I tend to get shot N1 and I guess it's just ingrained into me that scum want me gone soon and fast. If they don't nominate me, that means they have to deal with me for at least 2 more cycles. Especially because they don't know how much on the right track I am, I don't think they'll risk pushing me off (egotistical? maybe. But my track record shows lots of N1 deaths.) That said, if they choose to do so, then that's cool too. I'm comfortable enough with my town play to know I'll do more than enough D2 to erase the suspicion of me not getting nominated. As for the 3 townies idea: I understand the concern that people might treat the two not lynched candidates as "confirmed", but there's two things here. 1) If a scum is put up they are put under incredible pressure and attention, which isn't worth the "town" cred might want to get with it. 2) Even with 1 scum in the pool, there are 3 that aren't. We can hunt those no problem, especially if we follow my plan I outlined before, which puts even more pressure on the scum in the nomination. On February 08 2013 15:19 slOosh wrote: That said, we don't want to focus the discussion primarily on the candidates tomorrow. Because if three townies go up (probably the case), it is to scum's advantage to focus discussion on them. 1) Because it means attention drawn away from their selves. 2) Gives them ammunition to work off for future lynches. In any case the discussion should also be driven and moderated and lead by the candidates. You know it's gonna be at least 2 townies, so by following their lead we will have good (town motivated) direction. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
It's both: "reasons why scum probably won't put one of their own in", and "if they do it's not as big a problem as you think it is". For the second part, refer to the "Survival v. Pushing Your Agenda" in the scum section of Incognito's guide: | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
That said, tomorrow should be a day of scumhunting based primarily on D1 information, not D2 nomination candidacies. By forcing discussion to be centered on the former, we prevent scum from skating by with the latter. Only scum don't have meaningful reads by now. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 08 2013 15:19 slOosh wrote: That said, we don't want to focus the discussion primarily on the candidates tomorrow. Because if three townies go up (probably the case), it is to scum's advantage to focus discussion on them. 1) Because it means attention drawn away from their selves. 2) Gives them ammunition to work off for future lynches. In any case the discussion should also be driven and moderated and lead by the candidates. You know it's gonna be at least 2 townies, so by following their lead we will have good (town motivated) direction. It's like you guys don't even read. The worst outcome of today is time wasted by focusing on the nomination candidates. Let me and Palmar take front wheel and scumhunt into the non-nomination pool, of which we would all agree are at least 3 scum. If we are both town, then our interaction should produce a strong scum lynch list. If one of us isn't, then our interaction should reveal whom to lynch today. Again: D1 information is critical. We can't let scum skate by today pretending to scumhunt by choosing the least towniest of three people, because it is oh so easy for scum to fabricate town reads (no cognitive dissonance and awkwardness of interacting with a teammate naturally). If I sound like I'm repeating myself, it's because some players aren't getting it, and it's letting scum hide. The low hanging fruit in this game is phagga. If you familiarize yourself with his meta (nicely displayed in his profile and devoid of any scum games), it becomes clearer that he is new scum whose play pales to his town play. I've pointed out in my earliest post what I found about phagga to be interesting. On February 07 2013 01:21 slOosh wrote: I found phagga's entry into the game pretty weak (of all the things to talk about he picked out something pretty minor) and his "coaching" of Mocsta very unnatural. What are your thoughts on him? I pointed it out when I distracted myself by latching onto the yamato thing here, but the tells are pretty valid. He has a focus on lurkers, "contributing" statistics and reasoning. His "coaching" is very awkward, as seen: On February 06 2013 18:09 phagga wrote: Regarding you, Mocsta, I don't agree with VE that you tried to establish a good town atmosphere. You are writing calm, but some things you posted like are not helping creating a good town atmosphere. Did you really think Oats would say "oh well, I guess he's right, can I get a replacement GMarshal?" This subtle stabs have a tendency to poison town atmoshpere much more than the shouting of Oats did, and I did not like this at all. Considering that everything else you posted is barely alignement indicative, I'll be interested to see more from you. Awkward checklist: - Talking to Mocsta rather than VE concerning Mocsta's play, over something he disagrees with VE about. - Stating that Mocsta is writing calmly, but then dismissing everything else by saying it is alignment null, i.e. devoid of content - Pointing out to the subject himself the problems with his play rather than convincing / discussing with other people. Compare this to a D1 post (about three quarters into cycle) from Wheel of Fortune Mafia: On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his "really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction. Very straightforward, gives clear thoughts and explanations, talks to town in general rather than the subjects. Another contrast is his fear of taking a hard stance, a common tell among newer scum players. Notice how many scum tells phagga is able to point out, and compare that with his final conclusion: On February 07 2013 06:26 phagga wrote: I was rereading your dialogue with Sloosh, and the other post was already big enough. 1: I don't like how you accused him of making an association case (which he was clearly not), and 2: how you tried to dodge his questions. you not wanting to give town reads is not really alignment indicative. 3: You're case on Mocsta is rather weak, the tone of his posts vs Oats is completely different than what you posted from his scum game. 4: Your reaction to sloosh's questions feel over the top. You seem to bark at him for no good reason instead of just trying to answer his questions. It feels partially like someone who just got caught in the act and tries to hide it. Specially the following two posts stick out: and 5: Afterwards everything else is just you attacking him until prplhz points out to you that it might be beneficial for you to actually answer slooshs question. The way you explained why you thought I was town actually showed that you have reasons to believe so, and it's not because you'd actually know my alignment, which seems townish. Still, due to your reaction I slightly lean scum on you. Regarding Sloosh: Nothing I have read so far indicates that he would be scum. The counterbalance to five points is yamato's town read explanation "which seems townish". There's a clear disconnect here people. phagga's newb scum play is showing: he is afraid of committing to a stance despite being able to list much evidence. And there are the empty promises he often makes, because he can't make actual reads: On February 07 2013 18:55 phagga wrote: Doesn't do so.I will read up on Djo and Snarfs at the next possibility and comment on them. On February 08 2013 02:51 phagga wrote: Doesn't comment on the case at all, and his "grilling of VE" concludes somehow, with this:Snarf I feel unsure about, have to read up fully on his case on VE. I currently think he might be right about VE, so I do not want to lynch him On February 08 2013 09:52 phagga wrote: - VE is not a good lynch today, i do not agree with prplhz there. On February 09 2013 16:21 phagga wrote: I have a small post put together with thoughts/questions on some other players before yesterday but did not post it because I did not want to influence nominations. I will not post it right now, as D2 is fresh and the current vote discussion is more important, but I will put it up later (latest beginning of D3). More excuses not to post reads, because he doesn't have any. For someone who "took my advice" on rereading the thread (seriously why credit me with that), he clearly didn't read anything else I had to say since he is doing the exact opposite. So, yea that's that. We can start there. Palmar I want you to comment your thoughts on VE. Also, a fleshed out read on one of Cheesecake, snarfs or prplhz. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 09 2013 17:15 Mocsta wrote: As an aside: My main problem with sl0osh and what I need him to re-address is "Why did he think he would be up for nomination" I think it is arguable, sl0osh missing 3/4 of Day 1 does cast suspicion on him. This is followed up by "dangling a carrot" of 'clean slate reads'. Something I was not a fan. (We all have reads, why say this?) Using his logic of optimal scum play = 3 townies; it does not make sense for him to be included. I don't understand why me being included contradicts with my idea of 3 townies. The pool of people I referred to were good town players and "town" town players. I consider myself (and Palmar) the former, Mocsta the latter. I don't understand the danging of a carrot - I wasn't acting in a way to get myself nominated. The clean slate comment was an explanation of why I wasn't giving updated reads after a prolonged absence. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Just note that he didn't bother bring up most of those things during the actual day, and his final conclusion is "there is probably 1 scum in this group of three". Lots of questions but no real conclusions. Going to sleep because it's 2:38am and I have to be up at 8am and seriously why am I doing this to myself .... Next post will be around ... 1 or 2pm since that is when I'm free. If you have questions for me, consolidate them in a nice post so I can address each one clearly when I get back. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 09 2013 17:38 yamato77 wrote: We still have to pick someone who dies today, Sloosh. If we don't talk about it, how are we going to come to a good conclusion? It makes no sense to say we should just ignore the nominees. Sure it can: you let me, Palmar and Mocsta scumhunt. Looking at someone's scumhunting is the best way to determine their alignment, and so by what we say you will get a better read on us. We get some effective scumhunting done and the lynch can be decided later on in the day. Unless you really think one of us three is scum, in which case sure, go ahead and push that, but if it is a choice of "who is the least towniest", then I'd say that conversation is short sighted and unhelpful for future cycles. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 09 2013 17:39 yamato77 wrote: Also you seem to think Palmar is actually playing this game, which is obviously not the case. Well if Palmar doesn't do anything today it's obvious he should get lynched, so my procedure is the most effective thing to do since we get scumhunting done as early as possible. Going to sleep now, I invite you do look over / discuss my case / prepare questions for me when I get back. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 09 2013 17:19 slOosh wrote: It's like you guys don't even read. The worst outcome of today is time wasted by focusing on the nomination candidates. Let me and Palmar take front wheel and scumhunt into the non-nomination pool, of which we would all agree are at least 3 scum. If we are both town, then our interaction should produce a strong scum lynch list. If one of us isn't, then our interaction should reveal whom to lynch today. Again: D1 information is critical. We can't let scum skate by today pretending to scumhunt by choosing the least towniest of three people, because it is oh so easy for scum to fabricate town reads (no cognitive dissonance and awkwardness of interacting with a teammate naturally). If I sound like I'm repeating myself, it's because some players aren't getting it, and it's letting scum hide. [phagga case edited out] Palmar I want you to comment your thoughts on VE. Also, a fleshed out read on one of Cheesecake, snarfs or prplhz. On February 10 2013 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah okay, I missed that part about phagga. Then yeah, we're both in agreement. I'm not sure I agree where phagga is concerned, but we'll deal with that tomorrow. Today I'd like more input from the lynch candidates and everyone's thoughts on who they want to lynch today. Hey Palmar, I think we need to seriously discuss VE today, because I'm seeing some clear mafia agenda here, and little blips elsewhere. On February 10 2013 02:19 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm going to do a full reread now and look forward to chatting with the nominees about tomorrow's lynch. On February 10 2013 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not sure I agree where phagga is concerned, but we'll deal with that tomorrow. Today I'd like more input from the lynch candidates and everyone's thoughts on who they want to lynch today. Says he wants to chat with nominees about tomorrow's lynch. Disagrees about phagga, but wants to talk about it tomorrow. Could you focus your attention on him when you can? He is one of the more slippery players and it would be great if we could consolidate / clarify our read on him. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 10 2013 06:11 phagga wrote: I did not bring those things up because they only occured to me after I reread the thread/Filters in the 24 hour dawn phase. And my scum reads are djo, jay, yamato (which I actually forgot in this post after the line because I was in a hurry and didn't check my notes) and one of prplhz / Ve. My read on yamato is older and I will go through his filter now, also I will got through jays filter as he is currently more of a gut read (as written this morning). Mhmm yea, could you please address my actual case rather than my "I'm going to sleep here's a final footnote" post? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I've already stated my case. You said you have problems with it but have provided 0 reasoning, 0 evidence and 0 thought process on why. And then you expect me to extract all relevant information out from you, after stating that you wanted to talk with me. You're full of it and I'm gonna talk it over with Palmar. Now in the meantime why don't you actually do what you say you would do and talk about why you disagree about phagga. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 10 2013 22:32 Mocsta wrote: SlOosh, may I ask who you are planning to lead with on day3? Not sure if I understand this question - if it is who do I lynch first, it's phagga, because it's the clearest and best chance flip. I like Palmar's list as it has good overlaps with mine. After phagga, I'd probably start convincing people that VE is scum, then maybe prplhz. A strong reason for this is that VE and prphlz are objectively experienced / good players and they are focusing on today's lynch and avoiding talking about anything else. Think about it from a townie perspective. If you conclude that the nomination candidates are all town, then why would you bother spending your time and energies choosing which one to lynch? As if making the correct townie lynch will win the game for us? No, if you conclude that all nomination candidates are town, you should be focusing on who you will lynch tomorrow. You should scumhunt. 4 out of 8, I repeat 4 out of 8 players are scum if there are three townies up for nomination. And you seriously spend time looking at the three townies? Total bull. I've been saying this the whole time, and maybe it's more evident now as you've seen how D2 has played out, but there are clearly people who don't want to talk about anything outside the current nomination pool. What's more is that some of these people clearly think that the candidates are all town, so why would they bother waiting for the lynch before they start contributing? If someone thinks we are town, then they must have some degree of respect for Palmar's / my play, or in the very least desire to dialogue with another townie about their scumreads etc. Why wait for one of us to die? Why wait? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
In fact, why wouldn't anyone want to discuss tomorrow's nominations when all the candidates are still here? Do you guys see why I have such a problem with VE??? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I believe him town and really appreciate his efforts, but other than Palmar there is no one left in the playerlist that I have a strong town read on and someone who can help me focus town in getting right lynches. That said I don't want this to be the cause for bad blood, and if you guys think I'm scum for it, I'm fine with being lynched too. ##Vote: Mocsta | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
- in this game phagga writes timidly, fluffily and without conclusions - town phagga is capable of decent analysis, or at least confidence and clarity in his posts It doesn't matter if phagga is having an off game, because that is not the distinction I make. He scummy this game. You could argue about the use of meta but it's at best moot - take out meta and my case still stands just as strong, and it's incredibly scummy to dismiss the entire thing by strawman argument. I'm not drawing any associations from my phagga scum read. This is the exact same thing with yamato. Regardless of phagga's actual alignment, townies should act a certain way given what they have said. VE said he wants to talk to me about tomorrow's nominations. I presented my phagga case. VE did nothing at all in lieu of participating / contributing to the discussion, but all he did was say that he disagreed with the case (and didn't say why until I called him out on it). What VE did is scummy independent of phagga's alignment. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
If I die, just look through my filter (it's nice and condensed 2 pages), and strongly consider what I said. If I was a vig I'd shoot phagga / VE. That's how strong my read is. Then I'd look into prplhz. I haven't looked as much at Snarfs / Cheesecake / yamato but I see where Palmar is coming from (I'm looking at how D1 JX mislynch started / gained traction etc). I'd agree that from this pool alone we can nab at least 3 scum. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
What do you think about the points that I bring up, and his objective play this game? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 11 2013 16:35 Oatsmaster wrote: Snarfs why are you not scum? Also, why is Prp not scum then Snarfs? The first question is loaded and stupid. You tell me us why Snarfs is scum. Second question is already answered. On February 11 2013 16:24 Snarfs wrote: Oats: No reason for town to attempt to discredit prplhz like he did, whether prplhz is town or scum doesn't matter, Oats deliberately attempted to mislead us with his quotes. Anyways, I think we should all be consolidating on VE now. Anyone who disagrees should speak up. He hasn't done crap all game, and I've shown multiple instances where he has misinterpreted / twisted what I have said. Nigh no one has honestly attempted to engage in my discussion about him. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 11 2013 15:18 slOosh wrote: Mr. Cheesecake I want to talk about VE sans your scum reads going after him. What do you think about the points that I bring up, and his objective play this game? Bump. I honestly think we are trying to decide between lynching multiple scum candidates, because the connections just don't make any sense unless there is some degree of bussing going on. For instance, I'm seeing a phagga-yamato bus for one. I still feel like VE is much more scummier than Snarfs, so I want to talk about him. Let's talk. | ||
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On February 10 2013 06:37 slOosh wrote: Hey Palmar, I think we need to seriously discuss VE today, because I'm seeing some clear mafia agenda here, and little blips elsewhere. Says he wants to chat with nominees about tomorrow's lynch. Disagrees about phagga, but wants to talk about it tomorrow. Could you focus your attention on him when you can? He is one of the more slippery players and it would be great if we could consolidate / clarify our read on him. On February 10 2013 08:23 slOosh wrote: Ok VE. Say something scummy and then pass it off as a joke, and then call me scummy whilst doing so. That's cool. I've already stated my case. You said you have problems with it but have provided 0 reasoning, 0 evidence and 0 thought process on why. And then you expect me to extract all relevant information out from you, after stating that you wanted to talk with me. You're full of it and I'm gonna talk it over with Palmar. Now in the meantime why don't you actually do what you say you would do and talk about why you disagree about phagga. On February 11 2013 06:49 slOosh wrote: Not sure if I understand this question - if it is who do I lynch first, it's phagga, because it's the clearest and best chance flip. I like Palmar's list as it has good overlaps with mine. After phagga, I'd probably start convincing people that VE is scum, then maybe prplhz. A strong reason for this is that VE and prphlz are objectively experienced / good players and they are focusing on today's lynch and avoiding talking about anything else. Think about it from a townie perspective. If you conclude that the nomination candidates are all town, then why would you bother spending your time and energies choosing which one to lynch? As if making the correct townie lynch will win the game for us? No, if you conclude that all nomination candidates are town, you should be focusing on who you will lynch tomorrow. You should scumhunt. 4 out of 8, I repeat 4 out of 8 players are scum if there are three townies up for nomination. And you seriously spend time looking at the three townies? Total bull. I've been saying this the whole time, and maybe it's more evident now as you've seen how D2 has played out, but there are clearly people who don't want to talk about anything outside the current nomination pool. What's more is that some of these people clearly think that the candidates are all town, so why would they bother waiting for the lynch before they start contributing? If someone thinks we are town, then they must have some degree of respect for Palmar's / my play, or in the very least desire to dialogue with another townie about their scumreads etc. Why wait for one of us to die? Why wait? On February 11 2013 09:05 slOosh wrote: LOL. Ok, dismiss everything I said by calling it a meta case. Anyone objectively reading the case could see that there is only 1 point in which I draw a meta analysis, which serves to strengthen a point that is already there. - in this game phagga writes timidly, fluffily and without conclusions - town phagga is capable of decent analysis, or at least confidence and clarity in his posts It doesn't matter if phagga is having an off game, because that is not the distinction I make. He scummy this game. You could argue about the use of meta but it's at best moot - take out meta and my case still stands just as strong, and it's incredibly scummy to dismiss the entire thing by strawman argument. I'm not drawing any associations from my phagga scum read. This is the exact same thing with yamato. Regardless of phagga's actual alignment, townies should act a certain way given what they have said. VE said he wants to talk to me about tomorrow's nominations. I presented my phagga case. VE did nothing at all in lieu of participating / contributing to the discussion, but all he did was say that he disagreed with the case (and didn't say why until I called him out on it). What VE did is scummy independent of phagga's alignment. | ||
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Think about it from his perspective: - "I want to talk to candidates about tomorrow's lynch" - slOosh talks about phagga, who is a potential subject of tomorrow's lynch - "I don't like phagga. I want to focus on today's candidates." I'm not saying that he is a great player and not playing to my expectations of him. I'm saying that he is experienced enough to understand these things, i.e. he isn't someone you can dismiss as "oh he is a newbie, it's understandable he would make that mistake". Regardless, meta isn't my main point here. VE isn't overly concerned about defending himself because there hasn't been an actual threat to lynch him yet. This isn't a town trait. For instance how many people defended themselves last cycle? Is the number 4? Nope. Scum don't bother defending themselves when there is no serious threat against them. | ||
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Jay, I think we are just choosing which scum we want to lynch at this point. Many of the initial pool of suspects (including yamato) have ties with VE. By lynching VE it forces more content from the remaining scum as well as helps us get better reads of them if they happen to be town. That is why I prefer lynching VE and would appreciate if you join me. Yamato ain't going nowhere I assure you. | ||
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I think though we have to be careful with the alignment pairings of players. There are an unusually high number of scum, and it's not unreasonable that they would stage interactions with each other. Take each player objectively and use flips as supporting evidence. Given that none of these players have flipped, I think less credence should be given to alignment ties and more to standalone analysis of that player. | ||
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On February 12 2013 14:39 yamato77 wrote: I think his case on VE was just an excuse to do nothing else that day. I think his play day 2 shows a complete lack of interest in town's affairs, because it didn't matter to him who died since they were all town. I think even his play today shows how little he cares about interacting with town and actually hunting scum, because he just comes in, plops down some reads and then AFKs. He SHOULD get flak for this kind of play, because it's scummy. What makes him scum and prplhz town? | ||
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On February 13 2013 07:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: My town read on VE is based on scum like Snarfs wanting to lynch him. VE is weird, I'll give him that. Scummier than Snarfs? No fucking way, not in a million years. Lynch Snarfs, he'll flip scum. SlOosh, I actually think you're town. So tell me why we should lynch VE over Snarfs. Snarfs is 10x scummier by comparison. I'm actually doing a full reread right now to be objective as I can. VE has been actively scum, in the sense that twisting the situation and misinterpretation are actively scummy things to do. As I understand it people view Snarfs scummy for calling out VE and not doing anything else - in essence a lurker type scum. There are much less town explanations for someone actively misconstruing situations etc. than it is for someone who isn't doing as much as you would expect. But yea, I'm doing a reread now and will come back with what I find. The fact is everyone started posting D3 and it is very convoluted, so D1 D2 information will serve as very good sources of evidence, especially given the newer Palmar flip. | ||
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There are things in VE's filter that I really really dislike. I also have a huge problem with phagga's reluctance to vote and prplhz' continued lurking. If you can't tell I'm not that confident so you need to dialogue with me. Convince me, because I'm willing to be convinced. | ||
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A scum team of Snarfs, phagga, prplhz and Oats makes unbelievable sense. For me to believe that, it means I have to read you town. I'm doing the best I can. It's been a long time since I've rolled town, I missed a huge portion of D1 because of real life and I'm not as confident as I normally am. Like ... I dunno! And I'm dead serious about this. If it gives you ease of mind ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Snarfs ##Unvote: Snarfs | ||
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On February 13 2013 08:00 prplhz wrote: I don't particularly care about this lynch though Yes, because town is in such an awesome position that we are choosing between two scum candidates, and scum aren't doing anything about it. By virtue of phagga and prplhz, ##Vote: Snarfs | ||
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On February 13 2013 08:02 Mocsta wrote: that went over my head not even sure who you are responding to Mr. Cheesecake is spearheading this Snarfs lynch HARD. He is putting in tremendous effort into getting this lynch through. The idea is that if he is scum pushing for a mislynch, this will backlash on him hard, and with his flip VE will get nabbed as second scum too. That is what he is talking about in that prior post about giving up his left nut. Not a end all deal, but it weighs in his favor. | ||
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VE, I apologize to you first. I was so immersed in my phagga case and was so disturbed that you totally dismissed it. You are correct in that you have been on Snarfs & prplhz from the beginning. I admit it - I can't read, which led to my misinterpretation of you and then vice versa the cycle. (similar thing happened in ... that WBG game where we nailed scum 3 days in a row ... not that it's relevant but whatever). Mr. Cheesecake, you are a boss. I am wrong and you are right and I'm sheeping you all game because I am not as good as I thought I was. I rescind my town read on jay and my scum read on Oats. Too good. MVP right here. On February 11 2013 11:22 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I'm convinced that at least one or both of Phagga / Snarfs is scum. Prphlz is kinda up there, but I want him to pressure me first so I can see if he's British-Yamato scummy or more town. Jay came off so scummy trying to derail that lynch and deem everyone on the wagon was scummy for voting Palmar. Made me giggle on the inside. Top 4 right thar, 2-3 scum in it. Don't think Yamato / VE be a good lynch today. Yamato I don't see as that scummy, VE I see as more of as ez scum target because he's just not living up to his full potential. He's 'slippery' as SlOosh put it, but my top scumreads all want him dead which irks the fuck out of me. | ||
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Phagga smelt like scum and I didn't like that you waived it, but that's probably because I didn't address your Snarfs case first (I guess I missed it or thought Snarfs was right at the time or something). Also apologies to Oats. You are not daft, I just can't see scum that well. Ahh ... what a game to go down into the annals of TL Mafia~ | ||
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1) Some posts are in direct response to something but don't quote it (so it's a bit more confusing) 2) Most importantly, it allows you to read the flow of the game in chronological order, especially concerning player's interactions with each other 3) Maybe this is psychological, but I felt more objective when reading the doc, which is key. Stepping back to get big picture. Yea ... and not to bias you or anything but I really dig Mr. Cheesecakes' scum team. You can see how they interact with each other. Not that it's valid until you get some flips going, but at this point I've invested enough time into the game for it to click in my head. Oh, and I also could be wrong, so ... yea. Rereading is great! | ||
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On February 13 2013 11:17 Oatsmaster wrote: So you think that Prp is scum slOosh? And what is your read on phagga Yes - I was being sarcastic in that quote. My read on phagga since the earliest beginnings of the game was and is scum. On February 13 2013 07:34 slOosh wrote: phagga and prplhz, what the heck, how is choosing Snarfs vs VE so difficult for you guys when it is so obvious in your filters that you find indefinitely prefer VE over Snarfs? The answer is because they are probably scum. | ||
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phagga is still my top read - observe his vote switch behavior last night: Currently the votes are split between Snarfs and VE. At this point I'm still strongly voting VE and the only potential hint of my change is this post where I say I'm rereading. So, it looks like slOosh is probably gonna stick with VE. Votes are at 4-4 with prplhz voting CC. phagga comes in and waffles so I question his hesitation: On February 13 2013 07:39 phagga wrote: Dude, I might do the deciding vote here, I just want to be sure it's the right pick. That said, snarfs is a lurker, for whatever reason. VE had stuff in his play that just did not make any sense from a town perspective. Let's lynch VE. Ok. The highlighted line shows that he wants to be sure about this choice. Put some consideration into it y'know? ##Vote: VisceraEyes On February 13 2013 07:55 phagga wrote: You know what, fuck it. ##unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Snarfs let's lynch the scummy lurker. Well, so much for careful consideration. He calls Snarfs a lurker in the first quote. Somehow in a span of ~15 minutes Snarf's lurking has become scummy and more deserving of a lynch against someone who "had stuff in his play that just did not make any sense from a town perspective." Not only that, it isn't because he reviewed his notes as he explains later - the 2nd quote is straight up YOLO. There's a mismatch in attitude consistency. A "go with the flow" mentality. And then there is my case from D2 and his subsequent defense. Should still lynch prplhz first. Then when prplhz flips scum I'll come, point at prplhz's filter and say "aha!" then we can lynch phagga. Can't do that with Snarfs' filter cause he barely mentions him - Coinky dink? Maybe. But add enough of them and the more straightforward answer is that he is scum. | ||
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Did you really think the votes were split between 2 scum? | ||
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Everyone should be answering clearly what they think of each nomination candidate as to restrict all potential scum plays for the next cycle. | ||
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Town have very good reason to care about how they look. Ver's guide has #1 priority as establishing your innocence. In my last game (dessert mini), I let stuff slide because I figured that town was smart enough to read between the lines. I was wrong, and it aided in my lynch (as a SK but I was playing as a townie). I'm being very clear with my intentions and not letting people (either maliciously or innocently) misconstrue them. That is true for any alignment. I was sure I'll be put up since I was AFK for the majority of the day, and I perceive myself a decent player. If you (or anyone else) want to consider the "town cred" argument, look at a quote from Ver's guide: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote: III. Mafia Survival v. Pushing Your Agenda Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status. In other words, “town credit” decays over the course of the game. Against a competent town, don’t expect that you can set yourself up for a free win by acting too pro-town early in the game. Many newer players will often erroneously overvalue town credit. In reality, town credit is very fickle and lynches are seldom based solely on someone's town credit. As for my case, clearly you guys are having an issue with meta. Look - I'll take out the meta part. What do you think of it? + Show Spoiler + On February 09 2013 17:19 slOosh wrote: It's like you guys don't even read. The worst outcome of today is time wasted by focusing on the nomination candidates. Let me and Palmar take front wheel and scumhunt into the non-nomination pool, of which we would all agree are at least 3 scum. If we are both town, then our interaction should produce a strong scum lynch list. If one of us isn't, then our interaction should reveal whom to lynch today. Again: D1 information is critical. We can't let scum skate by today pretending to scumhunt by choosing the least towniest of three people, because it is oh so easy for scum to fabricate town reads (no cognitive dissonance and awkwardness of interacting with a teammate naturally). If I sound like I'm repeating myself, it's because some players aren't getting it, and it's letting scum hide. The low hanging fruit in this game is phagga. If you familiarize yourself with his meta (nicely displayed in his profile and devoid of any scum games), it becomes clearer that he is new scum whose play pales to his town play. I've pointed out in my earliest post what I found about phagga to be interesting. I pointed it out when I distracted myself by latching onto the yamato thing here, but the tells are pretty valid. He has a focus on lurkers, "contributing" statistics and reasoning. His "coaching" is very awkward, as seen: Awkward checklist: - Talking to Mocsta rather than VE concerning Mocsta's play, over something he disagrees with VE about. - Stating that Mocsta is writing calmly, but then dismissing everything else by saying it is alignment null, i.e. devoid of content - Pointing out to the subject himself the problems with his play rather than convincing / discussing with other people. Compare this to a D1 post (about three quarters into cycle) from Wheel of Fortune Mafia: On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his "really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction. Very straightforward, gives clear thoughts and explanations, talks to town in general rather than the subjects. Another contrast is his fear of taking a hard stance, a common tell among newer scum players. Notice how many scum tells phagga is able to point out, and compare that with his final conclusion: The counterbalance to five points is yamato's town read explanation "which seems townish". There's a clear disconnect here people. phagga's newb scum play is showing: he is afraid of committing to a stance despite being able to list much evidence. And there are the empty promises he often makes, because he can't make actual reads: Doesn't do so. Doesn't comment on the case at all, and his "grilling of VE" concludes somehow, with this: More excuses not to post reads, because he doesn't have any. For someone who "took my advice" on rereading the thread (seriously why credit me with that), he clearly didn't read anything else I had to say since he is doing the exact opposite. So, yea that's that. We can start there. Palmar I want you to comment your thoughts on VE. Also, a fleshed out read on one of Cheesecake, snarfs or prplhz. As with VE, I thought he was scum and wanted some input from Palmar. You know I'm not just bluffing and getting Palmar to do it for me, because I provide my reasoning (compiled in this post): + Show Spoiler + On February 12 2013 02:27 slOosh wrote: ... You seriously ask me to bump when I have a 2 page filter? Really? You can't do this yourself? As for the last posts, think of it from my perspective. I missed some posts, got some confirmation bias and tunneled VE hard - the wagon that ran against Snarfs. It was a humbling epiphany. If you think it's overdone, then that's just my character. | ||
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I think all nominees are town. | ||
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On February 15 2013 04:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah that looks way too prepared. Im not saying that you shouldnt look like a townie. Its just that no one SAYS that they want to appear as town. It just happens if you play a certain way. Telling people that you am town, even subtly, is not the way that you look like town. Look, we are arguing how to play mafia as the basis of you determining my alignment. If you disagree of how a town player should play and that I am not meeting those criteria, there is de facto no defense. I can argue that your standards need tweaking, but that is an argument on how to play, which we can argue to the end of time with no meaningful results, since it is a topic that we can argue about post game as non-players. I think we should lynch prplhz and phagga. The best criteria for figuring out who is scum or not is figuring out who is scumhunting and who is not (or just pretending). prplhz has not produced any meaningful content since the first cycle. He is very detached from the game and it is difficult to see any investment in his filter in trying to figure stuff out, or pushing for viable lynches. His cheesecake case came in at a time when the discussion is clearly centered VE vs Snarfs - it is totally detached from the game. Mr CC said that he found this a ballzy to make a case on someone who can't get lynched, but I'd repeat the same sentence with a different emphasis. Scum have plenty to gain by making a case on someone who can't get lynched, because they look like they are scumhunting but the backlash of a townie flip isn't there. You have posts like this where he likes Snarf's case but doesn't have any opinions on Snarfs himself (usually when you like a case someone else makes, you would have some degree of town tell on them wouldn't you?) On February 08 2013 03:16 prplhz wrote: I actually like Snarfs case on VisceraEyes. On February 08 2013 08:28 prplhz wrote: You can't mention Snarfs case as reasonable for possibily lynching VisceraEyes when you have said (repeatedly) that it isn't a good case. I can do that, however, since I've always liked Snarfs case. I don't like the looks of VisceraEyes. I'll lynch him over JieXian. On February 08 2013 10:01 prplhz wrote: I gave reasons. Snarfs case and your analysis. I don't know if he is a better lynch, but jaybrundage isn't getting lynched at all. I just don't like the JieXian lynch. On February 10 2013 09:50 prplhz wrote: I'm still leaning scum on VisceraEyes and I don't really know about Snarfs either. I haven't bothered making a case because I would think it is painfully obvious by now, and it's disturbing why we haven't a spoken consensus to lynch him tomorrow. phagga also isn't scumhunting, but it isn't as blindingly obvious as the lurker prplhz. Look at his lines of questioning - they are painfully weak and it's not so much him trying to gather information to make conclusions, but just asking around. The two biggests reads he has had in the game, yamato and VE were dropped when town sentiments were different. He is go-with-the-flow blendy scum. Mocsta, there are a couple of things I dislike in yamato's recent posts, but not to the degree where I would prioritize him over prplhz / phagga. Mr. Cheesecake I'll be reviewing jay now - I guess he isn't as apparent to me but that's probably because I haven't given him a good go yet. | ||
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Concerning jay, I think he is town. For instance, he actually fought against my VE lynch also to push the yamato lynch. On February 12 2013 03:29 jaybrundage wrote: SlOosh I agree with your VE case as I noted last cycle. But I believe that Yamato should be the lynch of choice today. He deflected two cases on him with out giving anything of a response. He did the same thing in Normal Mini Mafia VI when i posted an accusation of him. He legit completely ignored it. SlOosh you haven't given your thoughts on the Yamato case. What do you think about. On February 12 2013 05:55 jaybrundage wrote: SlOosh Why would you say that Yamato isn't happening. Its even with VE and Snarfs is leading by one. It's a bit to soon to say which lynch is gonna happen and which one isn't Yamato also has plenty of content to read over. The way he has hard defended some scummy people (prplhz, VE) Will also help to give a better read of these people. I would even say that Yamato would give way more information then VE. Also I think he's scum. Do you disagree with my case at all? Do you think Palmar was mistaken? Also saying that we are lynching between scum is a big assumption. It makes people care less about the lynch and lets scum get away weak bandwagoning. The biggest part that annoys me is your declaration of Yamato lynch not happening. Why do you say that. If anything Yamato seems like it has quite a bit of resistance. Also given The votes that are being thrown on Snarf I do not want to lynch him today. The people voting him are the same people Palmar noted as being likely scum. I also find prplhz's vote on CC to be rather bad hes dividing the vote for no reason. I don't see him His follow up on yamato is pretty consistent. On February 12 2013 12:18 jaybrundage wrote: @Yamato I don't wanna lynch Snarfs. Who's the next person on your list. On February 12 2013 13:09 jaybrundage wrote: @Oats This is the shit im talking about. You dont have any content in your posts. You make a snide comment, Insert a question/ask for clarification. While not fucking adding any thoughts of your own. You also ask the most easily answered questions. You could legit just think about it for a moment and come up with an answer your self but instead you just ask it anyway to appear to be doing something. Look at my scum team post. See if any of the plays are voting/casting suspicion on each other. Done that's it. Thats bussing. Example: VE calling prplhz scum. Its not hard to read these things for your self. Your complete lack of your own thoughts this game makes you more and more likely scum. @Yamato Yea God forbid I actually follow the best scumhunter on TL shame on me. Im sooo bad QQQQQQQQ Stop trying to discredit my read on you with out actually addressing it. You never responded to Palmar's case either btw. Yet again you make me following Palmar's read so bad. Yet why is this bad Yamato. Do you think Palmar is scum trying to push a mislynch on you. OH WAIT LOL HE'S CONFIRMED TOWN. I forgot about that. Welp why don't you just straight up call Palmar a baddie then and end it there. What happened to your OMGUS im pretty disappointed you dropped it after you figured that lynch with my name on it wouldn't go anywhere. You never responded to my post. I don't wanna lynch Snarfs. Who's next on your list. On February 12 2013 13:23 jaybrundage wrote: 1 Hey last game I was scum I used attacks on Bugs to rile him up and make him not think clearly. Nicely done. 2 Stop using emotional bullshit to try to pull out a response from people. Also you refuse to find a second candidate. WTF is this? If your town then start looking. Snarfs is not gonna be killed today. I have said this like three times and you refuse to answer. WHAT'S YOUR SECOND SCUM READ With respects to Palmar, I think he just really respects Palmar and respects his reads (Student Mafia if anyone remembers was a game where Palmar smurfed and caught jay and his 3 man scum team day 1.) Not too much of a stretch to think this could be townie holding Palmar reads in high regard. Posts like this I really like - I don't think we should lynch him before prplhz and phagga. On February 14 2013 15:34 jaybrundage wrote: Also I would also try to focus the lynch on tmw. If there are actually three townies on the board then we waste time talking about who we want to lynch. Scum can get away with talking about whos the scummiest of the three townies. What we should do is simply pressure our actually scum reads and not whos on the block. Yamato, VE what are your thoughts on Phagga and Prplhz? | ||
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It's not the presence of your CC case that I have issue with but the lack of any meaningful insight into the current issue at hand that everyone was trying to figure out. I also never said that you didn't believe that CC could be lynched, I said that just because someone makes a case on someone who isn't likely to be lynched isn't that useful of a heuristic. In any case you clearly seem to have opinions / reads but don't seem to want to share /expound any of them. I'm willing to listen prplhz - who should we lynch tomorrow? | ||
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I think all the nominees are town. I really do. I'll be defending whoever is alive out of us for tomorrow unless there is a reasonable body of evidence. And no, "that would be a sick scum play" is not a good reason, because possibility =/= reality. If it is what people are speculating it is, there should be evidence for it beyond "these things fit in nicely", because "they are actually town, you are being paranoid and scum is elsewhere" fits just as well, if not better. So less speculating, more research, more evidence, more cases. That said, as much as it sucks, I'm going to vote off Mocsta again. It sucks because he is putting in lots of effort etc. I'm voting him because if he is alive tomorrow, I find him to be a highly potential mislynch candidate (much more so than Mr. Cheesecake), so it's better to "use him up" during these even cycles when a townie has to die. ##Vote: Mocsta prplhz, could I have a bit more detailed explanation on your townish read on phagga? | ||
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slOosh
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Mocsta, I think all three nominees are town. The best we can make out of a 3 townie situation is remove as many mislynch possibilities as possible. From my perspective, seems real easy that scum could use CC flipping town to push your mislynch, or just keep you to push this paranoia case. If you think phagga is responsible for hammering Snarfs then I think you should reread the relevant pages. This is stupid guys. Lynch prplhz. All this talk day 1 about lynching lurkers and here is one on a silver platter, and you guys think "oh that is too easy let's go lynch someone more difficult to find". Seriously. It's not like he is even promising any content this is so stupid. If I end up dying, my scumreads are clear. Prplhz and phagga. Maybe yamato /debears after that. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Like I've been saying forever, I think prplhz and phagga are scum. Let's do some consolidating. p.s. VE you have my full attention to whatever you want my thoughts on. My activity drops on weekends but with time I have we can work on really getting fleshed out reads between us and CC for the future lynches, cause at least 2 can stick around till endgame (due to nomination system). ##Vote: prplhz | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Keep it simple - the most straightforward explanation is usually the correct one. It's more likely that CC / VE are town who caught scum Snarfs, and not some elaborate day 1 bus strategy, and that prplhz is just lurker scum skating by and not a super busy town player who lost all will to play and isn't even making proper reads. No one has made an honest effort case on CC or VE post Snarfs flip - if your fear that they are scum are well founded and not just natural paranoia that comes in a game of mafia, then there should be evidence to support that. No one has provided such evidence so either they are amazing scum players who don't slip (especially when acting with regards to each other and 1 more scum member) OR, they are town, plain and simple. Like ... the only useful discussion is ultimately, who should we lynch? I think it should be prplhz or phagga, and I've outlined why. If you build a serious case on VE / CC that people start wagoning, I'll build a serious defense, but there's no point in preemptively doing that for me - in fact it's probably detrimental as it detracts from scumhunting. If you want a couple of reasons on why I think they are town I can give that too, but it isn't useful for lynching mafia a la prplhz or phagga. @jay - it is kinda weird that out of prplhz phagga and debears you choose debears. Why you do that? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
@VE. If lazy play is a better alternative to his active play, then that is a legitimate way to play scum. Like, if I could pass off lazy scum play I would, because I find it really difficult to play active scum in imitation of my town play. I've definitely considered the possibility of lazy town prplhz, but I'm finding it more akin to scum sandroba or Foolishness - people's whose town play greatly overpower their scum play, so they just lurk about. Besides, he has done a good job cutting ties everywhere he goes in his filter. Consider this following post - he ain't got nothing, and even with threat of lynch he ain't got nothing, so we know that if kept alive he will produce nothing this game. Keep it simple - he is super duper lazy / disinterested / disheartened town, or he is scum pretending to be the former. I think he is scum. On February 15 2013 11:18 prplhz wrote: I don't really want to lynch Oatsmaster, Mocsta, Djodref, you, probably not yamato or jaybrundage or phagga. Guess that leaves me with VisceraEyes and Mr. Cheesecake but for some reason that doesn't seem all too right for a scum team. I mean there's one guy missing then. I'll be spending time on jay to give a more holistic appraisal now. I made a brief comment about him here detailing why I thought he was town / someone who I didn't consider for today's lynch. I also think because of his relation with (I think scum) prplhz from D1 that it is the case, and I am guessing you are thinking potentially the reverse because of it (jay is scum ergo, prplhz is more likely to be town). In any case I'll be going through the cases against him this upcoming cycle (won't have time to do so before deadline), and hopefully by then we can make an endgame lynch list. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
So I have a strong town read on CC and VE. With me we have 3 people, 2 of which I would like to indiscriminately keep till the endgame (I don't care if it means I get lynched if all 3 of us go up, doesn't change the plan). We hit scum tomorrow, and we lynch whoever isn't in the trio (or the more likely case we lynch me since the trio is nominated) and then scum the next day. In the meantime, scum will continue to put townies up, because they know putting themselves up will be suicide, according to this plan. Thereby, we eliminate 2 null reads during the even cycles (well it will be the most towniest outside of the trio but whatever). To be honest I still haven't had a chance to look at jay, but it seems like I'm in the wrong, especially since prplhz flipping town means there's one more scum in the playerlist and that the early interaction with jay is more how VE perceived it, not I. I still want to give it an honest go, but it will probably come tomorrow. Not liking his latest post for the unheeded slight at VE and narrowing of CC / yamato without contribution, nor how he voted debears instead of prplhz given that Palmar thought prplhz was scum - but there is a good chance I'm just trusting the objective reads from VE and CC, so gotta wait for the final verdict. Phagga I've had scum read forever, and I think by this point I've lost the ability to objectively read him without calling him scum at every turn, so I can't really discuss him that well. I just don't think he is scumhunting at all - just popping him to defend himself and ask inane questions, and making up scum reads off the cases of others without any initial contribution. Also I think yamato is town because it would be suicidal to put up someone against my and CC who have very strong town reads on each other (plus behavioral analysis etc.). I also think that scum will never put one of their own up, given my plan will insta lynch whoever isn't in the trio, and that scum won't gambit the one surefire means of eliminating townies for the fickle chance of "town cred". So if I did my planning right, yamato will die today, we lynch phagga / jay, next cycle I can die on behalf of trio, then we lynch the remainder of phagga / jay, then we lynch the remainder of the player pool (it will be VE, CC 1 town 1 scum at this point), lynch the 3rd player nominated and the remainder afterward, and win the longest game ever played of all time. Plan works if you believe VE and CC town, phagga jay is scum. It circumvents need to decipher through debears / Oats & yamato. Given that the only things mounted against VE / CC are paranoid scum bus theories (I think a phagga flip would show how it wasn't a coordinated scum bus, unless you want to argue that was intentional at which point you are scum for trying to stretch the truth that far), and good consensus that phagga and jay are scum, I think this is the way to go. Cool. So discussion on if you think phagga / jay is town and if so, who is scummier than they, or an actual case on why VE / CC is scum, or feedback on my plan. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
The answer is, probably not (even if I check his filter it's kinda hard). @Oats - Snarfs also defended a Palmar lynch D1, - As scum you also fear going against the flow. Aka, his backing off of VE and yamato cases when they weren't getting support. - The posts you quote are almost a week old. What new content has he produced? Does it look like he has any scum reads, or does it look like he is making them as he goes along? In the process of a full reread (yes another one). Will post up huge thoughts hopefully within a couple hours time. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
- VE calls out scum Snarfs but doesn't push the lynch over Palmar's - Oats joins along Snarfs lynch - jay notices phagga missing. wants more info on Snarfs - VE's initial list is palmar, prplhz, snarfs, JX. pushes prplhz for lurking - Phagga said he would talk on Snarfs. Didn't. - Oats switched back onto Snarfs And that's up to page 30. What I've gotten so far is that if anyone is to get "town cred" for pushing Snarfs, it would be Oats, not VE (aside from CC of course, look at his entry post calling out phagga Snarfs Djo he is baws). I recall from D2 him completely dismissing my phagga case by misconstruing it as meta, and his most recent posts where he once again shirks any responsibility for scumhunting, and seems more concerned in lynching "the least contributory townie" instead of finding and lynching scum. Right now by process of elimination coupled with some posts of his (like his "I think prplhz might be town" post out of nowhere) lead me to think he is indeed mafia. I'll be reading more and updating as I go along. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 06:50 jaybrundage wrote: New improved scum team (with help from CC) VE, Phagga, Debears, Snarfs We lynch systematically into them. And win the game. I fully endorse this position and will be willing to vote into any one of these 3 players. So town team of me, CC, yamato, Oats & jay - so at this point it's just convincing you guys that we are town and have to consolidate on them. If me flipping town today helps Oats see better, than I'm fine with that. Oats: I'm going to do this two ways. One is why I'm probably town, and one is why VE is probably scum. D1: I am voted with Mocsta and Palmar. Mocsta is pretty much established town. Palmar has a great reputation as a town player. Why would I put myself up as scum? How could I have known that Palmar would be sick all day? Because if Palmar chose to start contributing, then I would surely be dead. With yamato's case, the issue at hand is that VE is claiming that he is town because of his pushing Snarfs, when in reality, he wasn't really pushing Snarfs, but just pretending to do so. That is what yamato is pointing out. Pushing town over scum isn't the point - pushing town over scum while claiming to be pushing the scum the whole time as justification of his towniness is the issue. If you consequently observe VE's filter, there are 3 things that categorize his play. 1) Setup talk, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 2) Focus on lurkers, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 3) Hunting the "least useful" townie on even days, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing When does VE try to push a scum lynch? You may think Snarfs, but as yamato shows, he really doesn't. VE has been pushing lurkers and least useful townies and that is all that he is interested in. He isn't truly scumhunting. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
- jay, phagga and CC build yamato case - yamato serious lynch possibility. what are VE / phagga / Snarfs doing? - p 58~61: who cares about the lynch, who doesn't? - phagga acknowledges Snarfs case, keeps on yamato, and then soon after drops it when no one else is on it - phagga unvotes, but not to move it!!! There is unusual delay in his followup vote. I really think jay is town at this point. He has been consistently involved in trying to figure out scum. He was one of the first to support the VE lynch and his posts surrounding the deadline felt really genuine (like the one where he was really upset I moved my vote). The biggest thing is that he came to the same conclusion of a scum team that I did before I clearly said anything. It shows real consistency. I highly don't recommend lynching him. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 16:51 Oatsmaster wrote: Wait so why is Phagga and debears scum, and jay town? Without looking at filters, who has been very involved and participating in odd day lynches? Who has been looking at scum outside the nomination pool on even day lynches? I'll pull out some of the phagga cases that I saw rereading - gimme a min, | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
CC's case on phagga. Notice how he looks at different things and also comes to the same conclusion. When town players with different styles agree on scum for different reasons, it is good indicator that they are scum. Mocsta's perspective on phagga. Read the several following posts afterward too. slOosh's case on his voteswitch | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:02 Oatsmaster wrote: So you think my defence of phagga is wrong? Sloosh. Make your own reason and case as to why those 2 dudes are scum and Jay is town. Yes I disagree with your conclusions on phagga, as posted before. On February 20 2013 15:08 slOosh wrote: Without looking, can you tell me what phagga's town reads / scum reads are? The answer is, probably not (even if I check his filter it's kinda hard). @Oats - Snarfs also defended a Palmar lynch D1, - As scum you also fear going against the flow. Aka, his backing off of VE and yamato cases when they weren't getting support. - The posts you quote are almost a week old. What new content has he produced? Does it look like he has any scum reads, or does it look like he is making them as he goes along? In the process of a full reread (yes another one). Will post up huge thoughts hopefully within a couple hours time. The first point is that Snarfs (flipped scum) was also found defending Palmar. Why? Because it's an easy way to look good, and they were gonna get rid of him next cycle anyways. Pretend to contribute, pretend to look good especially when Palmar flips town. I think there are both town and scum motivations for defending Palmar, and therefore saying someone is town because they defended Palmar isn't that good (case in point Snarfs). I agree that as scum don't want to switch. But they also don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. Notice how phagga unvoted yamato when everyone else did, but how he didn't put any effort himself into figuring out if yamato was scum or not? You say "It doesnt look speculative like scum would just try to poke and prod, or sit on the scum read." concerning him going after yamato. Do you think he is giving valid reasons when he unvotes yamato or instead he is just going with the flow (since everyone else unvoted yamato and he doesn't want to stick out). As for the final post, just because scum don't take opportunities doesn't mean that they are scum. Not only that, it concerns an even day lynch, in which scum aren't nearly as scared since they aren't threatened. They can do whatever they want and pretend to look good, since it doesn't really matter which townie dies at the end. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:13 Oatsmaster wrote: Sloosh, those cases are like so old. And you comment on my town tell. Also I dont think the voteswitch is particularly scummy in its own right, I could imagine myself thinking like what if Im wrong, and snarfs is scum, low activity and all that jazz. What do you think about his explaination for it? Jay, why the fuck is Djo/debears and VE scum. Well just because the case is old doesn't make it invalid does it? Given that proper discussion of them weren't done due to other things coming up, I would think they are rehashing. Please comment on the cases and their contents if you could. The voteswitch is disturbing because it is clear from his filter that the decision should be really easy for him. If you open his filter and ctrl+f Snarfs, he mentions his name sure, but he rarely actually talks about what Snarfs' alignment may be. All I found was that Snarfs was a null tell. Contrast to his interaction and ultimate case. So phagga does an unnatural voteswitch off yamato. Why is it so hard for him to decide where to put his vote? There's no reason why he can't just park it on VE, who he built a giant case on and called scum, over Snarfs, who is just a mere null tell lurker. It's not like the vote is final. But he really hesitates. It's unnatural that a townie in his position would do that. You might say that it was because "what if Im wrong, and snarfs is scum, low activity and all that jazz" but his attitude and tone in his voteswitch indicates otherwise. On February 13 2013 07:55 phagga wrote: You know what, fuck it. ##unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Snarfs let's lynch the scummy lurker. If it still isn't clear, could you look into his filter and tally up questions vs. conclusions he makes concerning scum reads. How many scum reads does he have? Do you see someone who is honestly trying to figure out situations and reads, or someone who is just going along with the flow, asking questions to pretend to contribute, but never inputting his own original thoughts? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Things might get busy so in case I can't later: ##Vote yamato. CC let me know how you feel about the situation. I'm considering voting myself today if it means helping Oats come aboard and assuming you guys can agree that jay isn't the lynch for tomorrow. Seriously, please don't lynch jay tomorrow. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:30 Oatsmaster wrote: I am concerned that you have confirmation bias sloosh. OK Real quick 2 scum reads 2-3 line reasoning. OGOOGOGOGO VE - actively misconstrued my case on phagga, doesn't scumhunt but instead worries more about lynching between townies, lies when he says he was on Snarfs and is trying to milk town cred from it. Also keeps pushing doubt on me saying "oh I see red flags in slOosh" while never actually making a real case. phagga - Doesn't scumhunt. End of story. Has backed out of every single scum read he has made. Keeps asking questions but never draws conclusions. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Whichever one of you is town (I think it's Oats but it could be debears), aren't you worried? If you think the nominees are town, then you got 3/5 scum that aren't nominated. You seriously, seriously should think about what is being said and what is being pushed right now. Also note that VE is straight up slinging mud on yamato, even though he has on multiple occasions said that he is a strong town read. Also notice how his reads magically change over time despite no discussion or involvement with the thread On February 12 2013 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I read over Yamato's filter and it's gleaming green. I can't understand what you find scummy about it at all. He's consistently pushing his reads, and he explains his thought process clearly when those reads change. In the last game I played with Yamato he replaced into a prime scum position - a fake miller claim from a respectable town player...and he fucked right off. He did a little pseudo push on me, but he didn't do shit with that claim. If he's scum this game he's done something like the most spectacular turnaround in scum play I've ever seen. On February 17 2013 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote: prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese On February 19 2013 08:08 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll write up something more in-depth during the next cycle, but I'm approximately standing at jaybrundage, phagga, X Where X = one of yamato/slOosh I don't want to lynch either of yamato/slOosh though because I had a town read on them until now and I feel like whichever one is scum is going to help me lynch his buddies (thanks slOosh if it's you - you're a bro.  )On February 19 2013 08:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually Oats is on my todo Yam...and you/slOosh are by far my weakest read. Right now VE is just sweeping this aside because by killing yamato he doesn't have to properly address it. As it is I think this is the strongest way to go about lynching VE. ##Unvote: yamato ##Vote: slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
CC, I really think it is VE / phagga, with debears as the last, given my town read on Oats. So I really want you to push VE or phagga. Work together with yamato. He is town. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 21 2013 10:32 slOosh wrote: Whichever one of you is town (I think it's Oats but it could be debears), aren't you worried? If you think the nominees are town, then you got 3/5 scum that aren't nominated. You seriously, seriously should think about what is being said and what is being pushed right now. Leaving this for posterity. Seriously guys. Seriously. They all holding hands to push a common goal (mislynch). Despite calling each other scum. Seriously. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
And they all want to lynch the 4th player. HMMMMMMMMMMM.......... All sarcasm aside, no townie in their right mind wouldn't give pause in his situation. Lynch VE. Wagon of justice (TM by CC) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Please lynch VE tomorrow. <3 slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Please know with my flip that all my reads are genuine and town motivated. VE phagga debears scum. <3 slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Awesome carry work. Props to being open minded when I couldn't. You are the hero of this game. ![[image loading]](http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/applause.gif) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 24 2013 01:40 GMarshal wrote: I'm interested in seeing what people thought of the setup, how they would improve on it, and general thoughts about how both mafia and town played. Also, how do you guys feel about ObviousOne shadowing? Is it something we want to see more players doing in games (because I suspect it raises the game level even if its work for both player and shadow during the game.) Like it has been said, time is a big factor in this game. A 72 hour period in which you cannot threaten scum with the lynch is incredibly difficult and demotivating, but scum players also have difficulty keeping up the illusion of contribution. I think shortening the cycles somewhat can help improve the overall playability of the game. The smaller player pool version will almost certainly need some shortening as you have even less people to talk about for a greater length of time (I feel like scum would suffer more in this setup). I think mafia played well with what they could. The Snarfs bus was from lack of communication but they did their best with it and had ultimately yamato died instead of me the last cycle, I think scum would easily have won it. The game does seem more town favored though as scum cannot resort to passive play due to the nominations being a pseudo town confirm device, where as town can play regular. Maybe in higher levels of play it would be more balanced, but it definitely seems inherently town favored for that reason (scum require more than town to push their agenda due to setup). For town play it is harder to gauge as I was out for a huge chunk of the first cycle, so thinks were done with reread, and I guess the gut feel isn't quite there as it is when things are in the process of unfolding. I wouldn't say there was really exceptional town play until the final stretch of the game. I pegged phagga and was consequently biased in everything, Palmar was sick so can't blame him, prplhz lost motivation which is understandable and everyone else I'm not too familiar with their play so I can't say. The Snarfs bus however was really a key play this game, as it made so many entangling lines and I know I couldn't think straight when Snarfs flipped scum - although that was a very pivotal moment as well. Had VE died, CC would fall and it would be back to basics scumhunting. It also shows that bussing for town cred cannot be an ends to itself, but only a means for further scum manipulation, otherwise the gain doesn't justify the costs. Shadowing is a cool concept if I understand it correctly, and I wish I could have had some mentor-esque relationship as I was learning. It can help newer players develop in insight and understanding which in turn naturally raises the overall level of gameplay on TL Mafia. However I'm not sure how the shadow affects the shadowed - I'm wondering if the types of questions could get the player to think different perspective. Basically having someone outside the game help you play (even though they might be perceived lower skill level). All in all, a pretty fun game, albeit very slow and prolonged. Also, I could easily see the addition of blue roles on the current setup to create new offshoot setups, currently I'm thinking of roles that revolve around how the nominations are made / interfered with. Could be closed setup, could be semi-open. I dunno. And a final thank you to the hosts GMarshal and BioSC for hosting this game! | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Because as scum, having a shadow point out what they see seems to offer insights to how the town perceives a situation. You are getting an objective viewpoint of a situation. Yea, you can say that you have already considered all viewpoints and that the shadow won't bring up anything new, which is why I'm wondering if it is a skill level thing, but for someone like me who has a poor scum game, this would be valuable information. Proper evaluation of how the self is perceived helps play - either scum or town; as scum because you can pre emptively address problem / issues, town because you can better gauge people's reactions / interactions with you. On the flip side, town get's insights by having another viewpoint. So I guess my final thoughts would be that shadows help the player in either alignment. I think that this is a good thing, and that is a separate point can be discussed, but I think that having a shadow is helpful to the player. I don't think it's an unfair advantage per se, unless a whole side gets shadows and another doesn't, but that's like rolling a setup that favors one side (a la Fruity where town player base was pretty strong I think?). ... I was going to talk about how to limit the influence a shadow has on a player rather than vice versa, but I think that would be losing out on something potentially really good for fear of something that is a relatively minor point. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I don't think I actually ever read the case (I actually agreed with Snarf's D1 case much more but I forget why I dropped that). It was more of what other players were doing (CC, phagga, prplhz) than anything VE did in particular. It's not really that hard to sway me, but when I spearhead a lynch and the people who follow me can't support me when I'm hesitant, I lose even more confidence, which was probably why sheeping CC was so alluring, since he seemed confident. | ||
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