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On February 05 2013 08:43 GMarshal wrote: Game will likely start wednesday. ....how am I supposed to contain my bowels until then? | ||
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On February 06 2013 07:59 Snarfs wrote: Show nested quote + On February 06 2013 07:09 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh and in case I roll scum, I'm changing up my playstyle this game. So...yeah. Expect the unexpected. EXPECT IT!!! /eyeroll Do you still say this every game? E'ery game sir. | ||
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##Vote: wherebugsgo Not in my taon sir. | ||
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You were referring to the "SUPER SECRET" plan we concocted pregame then...the *winkwink* HYPER MODE SCUMHUNTING *nudgenudge* plan. I get ya. | ||
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Regarding the setup: All we ever have to go on, in any game, is what we control - being the lynch. There are no night kills for us to analyze, but the nomination phase gives us information in a similar fashion - everyone scum chooses during the nomination phase was chosen to further the scum agenda. Whether it's to get them lynched or to make town feel a certain way about those who don't get lynched. So all we can do is lynch the scummiest player today. Tomorrow we'll decide who to lynch after scum decide who to nominate. We decide who to lynch today first and decide what to do tomorrow tomorrow. Something I'd like to stress however is that it's going to be very important in this setup to LYNCH LURKERS WITH AN UNHOLY FURY. We have no vigs to hope to clear them out, so it's every townie's DUTY to make sure they're not lynchbait by lurking like a fuck. I don't care how busy you think you are. It doesn't take long to contribute meaningfully. I will lynch you if you lurk. Be warned. @Snarfs I know it seems like I'm omnipresent sometimes, but I'm still human bro. I still have NEEDS. I don't LIVE at work bra, I need to go HOME sometimes too. You know...the place where you hang your hat? What you apparently perceive as dastardly disappearance is nothing more than unlucky timing. We were all joking around when I left, I thought they were cool to play alone together. :/ We're lacking WAY too many people to start throwing fingers around now. If you have some sort of valid reason for thinking I'm scum then cool, whatever let's hear it. If you're really just pissed about me not stopping Mocsta/Oats from "shitting up the thread" as you say, how about you take it up with them instead? I'm not responsible for their posts. | ||
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On February 06 2013 15:02 Oatsmaster wrote: Something I'd like to stress however is that it's going to be very important in this setup to LYNCH LURKERS WITH AN UNHOLY FURY. We have no vigs to hope to clear them out, so it's every townie's DUTY to make sure they're not lynchbait by lurking like a fuck. I don't care how busy you think you are. It doesn't take long to contribute meaningfully. I will lynch you if you lurk. Be warned. You know, the last person I saw that was so adamant about lynching lurkers was scum. I wonder what that makes you :| Was that person scum in a game that has no nightkills and only lynches and no vigs Oats? | ||
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In this setup we're uniquely NOT able to clear out lurkers from the lynch pool (because there are no blues). Therefor we can ONLY lynch them to divine their alignment. | ||
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That goes for everyone, but I singled out Mocsta because I think his posts ARE insightful - I just want to wait on that particular discussion. | ||
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At any rate, I'm not trying to bury anything, or I wouldn't even be engaging you in this conversation. I'm just trying to understand your motives and give reasoning for my stance. | ||
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We're all three of us (you me and Oats) saying the same thing...that everyone needs to contribute. I think the breakdown is that we all seem to have different motives when we actually don't. Oats = Shut up and scumhunt Moc = Improve town atmosphere VE = Kill the lurker. I submit that in the name of moving the game forward, we all recognize that those three conclusions are all means to the same end: finding and eliminating scum. In this way, we can all focus on what matters: the posts of those who haven't contributed yet. What do you say guys? Truce? | ||
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Jeez I guess that wasn't much of a scumtell after all, huh guy? ![]() | ||
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I want to kill Palmar for being a useless...thing...that is useless... | ||
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##Vote: Palmar | ||
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One thing I didn't like about yamato's case on Mocsta doesn't even have to do with the content of the case...it's the lack of a vote attached to it. It's like he's feeling out the lynch before committing. Yamato accuses Mocsta of "fabricating" his read on Oats, but most of what he's accusing Mocsta of is not even alignment indicative. Honestly, I don't even know what "fabricating" a read means. On the whole, I don't like what I've seen from yamato so far. It's reminiscent of his attack on me in the last game we played. Lemme go take a look at phagga. I noticed that he was your top read only a few posts ago, now he's "to a lesser degree". Should I assume you're disliking yamato more now? | ||
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You know yamato for someone who's so against talking about townreads, you seem to be keen on asking people for theirs in the form of seeking arguments against your case. Are you aware of that? | ||
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On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote: Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then. As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. Why don't you look at me closely and ask yourself if I'm trying to find scum. For me being your opening vote, I'm growing a little impatient with you pussy-footing around a case. | ||
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First of all, something I noticed last night. On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote: Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyes As far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game. This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this: On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote: Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then. As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote: All right, so here are my thoughts: 1) On VE: My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that. But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE. **snip** Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained? It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me. Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit. | ||
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*dustkick* | ||
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Djo bringing back up the whole Oats/Mocsta thing is just...confusing. What's the point? I'm not even sure what he's accusing Mocsta of in the first place. @Djo What exactly is your problem with Mocsta? It's like you're suspicious of him because he didn't join your random lynch (which you say that you didn't even really like). As I said earlier, I'm very very interested in clearing out the trash, being players who signed up and aren't playing. Right now that list is: Palmar prplhz Snarfs JX There's no way in hell they're all scum. Here's what I want to do. I think everyone should choose one name off that list that they believe is the most realistic lynch candidate based on what they perceive to be town sentiment. Then I want them to explain why they aren't voting for that person, and explain in detail why their lynch candidate is better. Know this. GM made it clear in the OP that lurkers will ruin this game. You don't even have to take my word for it, it's right in the OP. The worst thing townies can do in this setup is lurk. Therefor, I don't want to lynch someone active today. We can start lynching into active posters with more flip information. I think prplhz is the most realistic lynch candidate, and I'll tell you why (though you probably won't like it.) Palmar apparently wants to lynch prplhz. Is that fucked up or what? But it's true. If Palmar comes back in here and says "Yeah I still want to lynch prplhz" then I believe that prplhz will get lynched. In spite of fucking off for the entire game, Palmar has more say over who gets lynched than I do. But I'm not bitter - all is not lost you see. For I can also get down on a prplhz lynch. I'd still do somersaults over a Palmar lynch or Snarfs lynch, but honestly I just don't think I can make it happen today. ____________________________________________________________________ On the active posters: I'd like to see more from slOosh. Him backing out of his yamato read, while admirable I guess, leaves me wondering just who he thinks is scum. He mentioned phagga as a means of determining prplhz' alignment...somehow? But made it clear that he wasn't really a scumread. Ultimately he wants it to be clear that he's not doing nothing, which generally sets off red flags for me. He started out as a super townread too, which is why this is concerning for me. @slOosh You say "let's work with what we've got". I've got a case on Snarfs that you haven't commented on. I've got a lurker policy that I'd like you to consider. I'd really like to hear who you think is scum. yamato is on my to-do list tomorrow morning. So is Cheesecake. I'm going to bed now. ##Unvote: Palmar ##Vote: prplhz | ||
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##Unvote: prplhz ##Vote: Snarfs WOOOWOOOOOOOOO This is the lynch guys, all aboard. | ||
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##Vote: JieXian It's still true - it was just an observation. I wouldn't say he's been discussed "all day"...he doesn't even have enough content to warrant all-day discussion. And his resurgence into the thread when the threat of lynch is real certainly doesn't speak well for him either. | ||
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If he's town, his play is lynchworthy anyway - but he's not. I would think (or at least hope) that he wouldn't play a game like this as town. | ||
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/facepalm | ||
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Riddle me this phagga: how do you think scumPalmar would say he wants to lynch prplhz, regardless of prplhz alignment KNOWING that he's going to disappear for however long and not participate in the game? I wouldn't expect a townPalmar to even say he wants to lynch anyone in that manner knowing he hasn't read the thread and isn't going to read the thread long enough to warn us about it. | ||
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I'm leaving before I say something horrible. | ||
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And regardless of the second post you quoted, the fact remains that he didn't do shit to actually get prplhz lynched. This is a fact. So you can bitch at me all you want about "voting for my scumread's target", because I know that prplhz was never really a target for Palmar because he's come back since then and hasn't mentioned him again. Not even a "Guys lynch prplhz" like he's wont to do. Nothing. | ||
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slOosh had a really strong showing early. I don't think he necessarily backed off yamato easily, but the problem is that yamato was like his only read and he's fucked off. Generally speaking, I think he's bought a day...but like I said, I'm growing more wary as more time passes. | ||
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On February 08 2013 10:27 Snarfs wrote: Hey guys, I'm here from now until deadline, just working on some homework on the side. I haven't had a time to go back over JX's games, but I'm in the same boat as Palmar. Just from a cursory glance, I don't see anything scum-motivated. I like how you literally just said you're in the same boat as someone who's not even playing the game. | ||
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It gets tricky though if scum are in everyones townreads. We cross that bridge when we see nominations. | ||
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The nomination phases are going to be good for us because they'll leave us a pattern to follow. Not that we should automatically assume that only townies will be nominated, this is not what I'm saying. But I'd be surprised if more than, say, one scum is ever nominated at a time. As a result we can start narrowing down who is scum BASED on the nomination phases. Scum will likely want as few nomination phases as possible. I'm not trying to push this as what will happen. I'm providing my own opinion of how this mechanic is going to play out. I'll be in and out over the course of the day. In a non-perverted sort of way. | ||
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I've been after Snarfs all D1. The reason I was reluctant to agree on prplhz was his lack of the obligatory "scumPrplhz Policy Lynch". However, his ridiculous notion that I'm scum late in the day feels almost scripted. Between Snarfs and prplhz, who would you say has the highest chance of flipping scum Palmar? At this point I'm thinking prplhz based on him basically sheeping Snarfs' "case" on me. The only person who mentioned suspecting me on the panel today is Mocsta, and he actually clearly put some thought into the matter. | ||
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I'm going to do a full reread now and look forward to chatting with the nominees about tomorrow's lynch. | ||
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/sarcasm | ||
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I've been filtering prplhz/Djo/Snarfs and I'll write something up a little later on. | ||
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On February 10 2013 03:19 prplhz wrote: Show nested quote + On February 10 2013 02:43 VisceraEyes wrote: Yes Palmar, what's the benefit of keeping information from scum until after they've acted? I'm eager for this answer too because applying the whole of my brainpower I can't think of a single good thing to come of that. /sarcasm Can't you just not post if you don't have anything useful to say, or if you really want to, answer my question without the attitude? I answered it in the post you quoted. Assuming Palmar is town, he kept it from the thread in an attempt to keep information from scum until after they've acted. In this way if they felt so inclined to risk putting one of their own up, they're more likely to do so. If they feel out of control of the even day lynch (such as if it were RNG'd as Palmar's plan suggests) then they're less likely to put one of their own up. With this field of nominees I reject Palmar's plan...as I feel like all of the nominees are likely town at this point and want to get rid of the most useless one...whcihever one that ends up being. For the record, the sarcasm was meant to be humorous, not inflammatory. The logic is pretty straight-forward in my opinion, I thought if I phrased it that way it would seem obvious and incite laughter. Clearly I was mistaken. Good day sir. | ||
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I think you share my sentiment regarding how to handle the lynch today - we seem to be speaking the same language. I have to ask though - slOosh has already gone to some pretty great lengths to explain his thought process today, while conversely Palmar has done almost no analysis to speak of and has instead only done as he's promised he would, reveal his D2 Plan of Excellence. Are you literally saying that your metric on this lynch is whether the nominee agrees with your scumreads? And if so, does that not open scum up to manipulate you on future nomination days? | ||
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Along with my (foolhearty) belief that he'd come in here and be of use at some point if town, and I wasn't interested in twisting everyone's arm into a Palmar lynch...especially when there are equally bad lurkers in the game who look even worse (JX). At that point I wasn't super convinced he was scum...it wasn't until he later on in the day when I was really conviced. You can't miss it in my post history. | ||
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On February 10 2013 06:16 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: sry phone posting.... both candidates agree with me. sloosh made a case on phagga. Itsno if he agrees, its if he can back it up well. This lynch for me is predicated on who is going to make the most sense. sloosh and palmar seem to have a similar reads as i do. If palmar isnt going to justify substantially, i dont want him around. sloosh has proven moreso that hes A). town and B) cares and will analyze posts and behavior. currently hes more beneficial to towb. depends on palmars next promised post. Yeah okay, I missed that part about phagga. Then yeah, we're both in agreement. I'm not sure I agree where phagga is concerned, but we'll deal with that tomorrow. Today I'd like more input from the lynch candidates and everyone's thoughts on who they want to lynch today. | ||
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On February 07 2013 22:32 prplhz wrote: Something rubs me the wrong way about jaybrundage and his case on Djodref. No one else really reacted strongly to Djodref's silly random vote because everybody knew what it was: some sort of scheme to draw out scum. Pretty rediculous but at least he doing something. jaybrundage also acknowledges this himself here but he still uses it as a reason to vote Djodref. This gives him a place to put his vote and even though he's since gradually recanted this (like here), he hasn't unvoted. It seems like he is trying to keep the Djodref door open while not pushing it and not wanting to actually push anything else. It doesn't seem like a townie thinking "fuck yea, i nailed this cracker and it's so obvious! now i just have to get everybody else to listen to me!", more like "cool, i can just put my vote on him and then chill". How do you guys feel about jaybrundage? This is prplhz' first post with content. I think this post clearly illustrates his scum mindset. My biggest problem with the post is the bolded statement. He already knows Djodref's alignment! Why can't Djodref be scum just putting junk in the thread? He calls it ridiculous himself, it's not going to help anyone find scum...he didn't even put himself in the damn lynch pool when determining the target! So why is it so clear to prplhz that Djodref's nonsense is "some sort of scheme to draw out scum"? On February 08 2013 00:54 prplhz wrote: I didn't want to talk a lot about JieXian because I wanted to see if he showed up on his own. He has posted around this time (actually a couple hours later) before in this game so I thought I'd not comment on him to see if he showed up again. If he didn't then I would be pretty sure that he was actually just not here which doesn't say much about his alignment. Of course this gamble doesn't work if I talk about it in the thread. Anyway, now that he's here he needs to start fending for himself since he apparently has four votes on him. This post is regarding JX on D1...the timeline should be clear by the content. The thing I don't like about this post is that in spite of it going to lengths to explain how he was trying to divine JX' alignment, it's clear to me from this post that he already did. Look at the last line (particularly the italicized bit). It's like he was trying to show disinterest in the lynch while keeping a door open to vote for him if he needed to. The lynch went the way scum wanted apparently because he can be found hard defending JX in the form of his laughable sheep onto Snarfs' "case" on me. On February 08 2013 03:16 prplhz wrote: I'm not sure. I want to lynch jaybrundage but no one else likes that lynch. I want to lynch Palmar but I see no reason to do it right now when we might as well just do it later. I actually like Snarfs case on VisceraEyes. On February 08 2013 08:28 prplhz wrote: Show nested quote + On February 08 2013 08:20 Mocsta wrote: Hmmm this ve stuff phagga in conjunction with snarfs case isnt looking good for ve. [...] You can't mention Snarfs case as reasonable for possibily lynching VisceraEyes when you have said (repeatedly) that it isn't a good case. I can do that, however, since I've always liked Snarfs case. I don't like the looks of VisceraEyes. I'll lynch him over JieXian. It's important to note here that prplhz has, up to this point, had ZERO strong scum reads. Even his jaybrundage read is ambiguous and unclear. This is all I can manage today. I had started describing my adventures through filterland after this, but I'm super pressed for time today and won't be back until after lynch. For todays lynch, it's clear (at least to me) that slOosh is trying to illustrate that he'll be here and active tomorrow. I'm not getting that feeling from Palmar at all - he still feels as distant from the game as he did at this point D1. However. Palmar is apparently reading prplhz the same way I am and slOosh wants me dead. Frankly I don't even get why, but the fact is that I think I'll have a shot at getting prplhz lynched tomorrow with Palmar around. Therefor I'm voting for slOosh. Sorry slOosh, stop reading me as scum when I'm town. Also your phagga read is bad because the main thrust of it is a meta analysis between a post from a different game mostly through D1 and a post in this game from the very beginning of D1. If you'd pull your head out of your ##Vote: slOosh | ||
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Prplhz is still my preference. slOosh can you tell me why you prefer my lynch to prplhz? Is it just because you think I'm scum? Because that's horrible if so. | ||
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##Vote Snarfs Because prplhz just wrote a case and I will read it before I moving forward. | ||
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I'm sorry I couldn't understand what you were asking earlier. I hope this clears that up. | ||
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slOosh is Mafia He keeps insisting that I'm not doing shit. He keeps insisting that I am not scumhunting. He conveniently leaves out the fact that I have not one, but TWO scum suspects whom I have made cases on and pushed for lynch at various points in the game...suspects that I continue to believe in today. Because I believed that the nominations would be all town, I wrote slOosh off as town as soon as the nominations were posted...in spite of red flags being raised when he was certain he would be put up for nomination. Now he's got this fail crusade against me. But he's accusing me of shit that he's just as, if not more, guilty of. He disappeared during D1 when the important shit was going down. And now he's in a unique position of being "soft-confirmed" town. What's he do with it? Continue to ignore everything his "scum suspect" says. If he really thinks I'm scum, why isn't he trying to catch me by making me explain my reads more thoroughly? Because in the name of consistency, he has to pretend they don't exist.. Otherwise he has no fucking case on me. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out a townie motivation for pretending my scumreads don't exist, and aside from "maybe he really thinks I'm town and is trying to infuriate me to confirm his read on me" I can't think of a single one...and that one doesn't make any fucking sense because if he's town and he's wasting all that time on trying to cement a TOWN read on me, he's doing something horribly horribly wrong...therefor, I conclude that he has to be scum. prplhz is Mafia Palmar knew it, I ignored it, now I gotta do something about it. prplhz did nothing over the course of D1 aside from ask Djodref about RNG, tell Mocsta and Oats to stop yelling at each other, and ask people over and over what they think about his "case" on jaybrundage. I put case in quotations there because his case is basically "he feels a little elusive and mild and *shrug*" but apparently that's enough for prplhz. What I find interesting about that is he claims he had no strong scum suspects D1...but apparently I haven't been doing shit all game right? Why wasn't I a suspect to prplhz? Oh that's right, at the end of D1 when the shit was uncertain surrounding the lynch, that is when all of a sudden prplhz would lynch VE over JX. Which begs the question: why didn't he raise me as a lynch candidate before then? If he was opposed to the JX lynch, why didn't he offer me up sooner than a couple hours before the lynch? prplhz is my strongest read by far and I prefer a prplhz lynch today. Snarfs is Mafia Snarfs has rubbed me the wrong way all game. His initial case on me was so bad that it got my attention, and the way he pushed it (or NOT pushed it more accurately) felt scummy all game long. He continues to do nothing, which kinda makes me a little queasy, but overall he's firmly in the red for me. If I can't get a prplhz lynch today, I would lynch Snarfs. ##Unvote ##Vote: prplhz | ||
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Also, this is a minor point, but something that pretty well seals my read of him: On February 08 2013 11:46 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Okay just got back from work... town flip eh... I should have went with my gut srsly. So who the heck are the lynch candidates? It's nightime, so that means we lynch one of the 3 targets scum chose beforehand? And Mocsta, Snarfs wasn't the only one who 'resisted' the JX lynch, prplhz did as well. I just remember his going like "zomg this guy is prolly town wtf r u doin' bruh" when I left. On February 08 2013 11:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Oh nvm there's a 24 hr dawn phase. It occurs to me that scum would have been discussing nominations ALL DURING D1. It just seems a little too crafty of Cheese to fake ignorance of the setup like this if he's scum. Regarding yamato, I'll filter him. I haven't read much on yamato to be honest. | ||
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I looked over Djodref's filter for fun, and I think he's town. There's not much there, as his activity has been pretty spotty even when he was posting, but he doesn't come across as like...diplomatic. When we were scummates in Looney Lynching, one of the things I noted about his play was that he did this thing where he acknowledged scummy behavior people pointed out as scummy...like "I can see why you think that's scummy" or "I understand why you think that" and shit. Diplomatic. I'm not really seeing anything like that in this game, though to be fair it's missing most hallmarks of his town play too. It becomes a question of whether I think his D1 play was scummy, and I have to say no. I said it before, but the thing where he left himself out of the pool of lynches in his RNG speaks volumes of his alignment. I feel like as scum he would either put himself in the pool or at least lie and say that he did. But he told the thread flat out that he left himself out of the pool. That just doesn't seem like a scum move to me. | ||
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Regarding the first part, it's a matter of what's most likely. I'm not saying that it's a town-tell for people to ask others opinions of themselves...but the frequency and consistency that Cheese exhibits that kind of behavior just doesn't seem likely to come from scum. And finally, and least importantly, prplhz now wants to lynch Cheese. Show me how Cheese is pushing any kind of scum agenda and we'll talk about scum Cheese...until then, I prefer to talk about someone I have a scumread on...or at the very least someone I don't have a townread on. | ||
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I'm gonna sleep on it. That IS scummier than I thought at first. :/ @Cheese I'd like a little clarity regarding your lynch preference. Would you rather lynch yamato or Snarfs? Why do you think he makes a better lynch? | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote Snarfs Oats I think Snarfs more likely today...but if that changes I SWEAR I'll be back. My vote is on prolhz in spirit. | ||
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I'll be in my trailer. | ||
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He scum bro. If feel it in my BRAIN. | ||
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At the time of the post in question, it was simply a choice between two lurkers. And as I explained in my post, if Palmar had delurked and said "yeah guys go prplhz" I think that prplhz might have gotten lynched. That observation transcended alignment - I believe that would have happened if Palmar were scum OR town. It was an observation of the typical gamestate here on TL: blind faith in the Leader. Because of that, it didn't matter to me whether Palmar delurked as scum and did that because based on the actions prplhz had taken up to that point (read: soft push on jay and vague "pro-town tidbits") I decided that I was okay with a prplhz lynch. Palmar had shown no interest in Snarfs or I would have voted Snarfs instead - Palmar had only up to that point expressed a desire to kill prplhz. | ||
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Apology accepted though. You're doing the right thing, so I'm not mad. | ||
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Your insights should prove invaluable considering you're on the tail of a full fledged reread. | ||
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Debears better fucking bring the thunder...I thought Djodref was town before, but the silence surrounding the lynch indicates to me that a) scum had no problem lynching Snarfs or b) scum couldn't do anything to prevent it. I'm looking hard at debears as of this moment. | ||
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slOosh... </3 bro. </3. | ||
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I've reread the thread and found some interesting things...I'll post it up tonight after work (being after the nominations are up). | ||
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On February 14 2013 07:55 Mocsta wrote: VE: Wanna give me a preview on what you think the nominations may turn out like this round? 3 T; 2T 1S, 1T 2S; 3S No...and frankly I'm disturbed that you're asking me this question. | ||
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.....doesn't it? IS there any way for scum to manipulate that info? | ||
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If they're feeling saucy, maybe put one in praying to lynch one of the townies...but that's risky. Especially considering we already have one of their panels (from D2). | ||
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While you're here what do you think? Scum gonna risk it? Or do you think they'll do TTT? | ||
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Before you asked I was just operating under the same philosophy as the beginning of the game. Shit's changed mang. | ||
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Which begs the question: have they already? | ||
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On February 14 2013 09:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hey VE, I know I saved your ass from being lynched and all, but it doesn't give you the excuse to jack off and do nothing the rest of the game. So kindly do things my good sir. Love, Mr. Cheesecake P.S. What is with people using the word "waffles" for Phagga and people using the word expounded this game? Like jeeze. It's made this re-skim painful. Also VE, what you think of Mocsta. His filter is like quicksand; I just keep getting sucked deeper and deeper until I can't breathe. I wrote him off as town because nominated D2. (If you want to save the response for apres nominations, it's kewl brah) I'm doing things sir...I'm just waiting until after dawn. You know, like my post said. I'm reading Mocsta as null until after the nominations. Then who knows?! | ||
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On February 14 2013 09:06 Mocsta wrote: Dunno mate. So whose ya best town read at the moment? Im sure that won't hurt nominations. If they in; it becomes a choice of two: so easier And if they are not: you didnt change nomination outcome so doesnt hurt either way to share. The idea is to not get them in Mocsta - if they weren't in before I don't want them in because I said something. The choice isn't EASIER for me to pick someone to lynch among people scum chose because scum chose them. The idea of the nomination phase is to make town choose who to lynch among people they wouldn't normally ordinarily lynch...or at least that's the optimal to play the nomination phase. If we all start tossing out our best town reads then that makes scum's job really really easy. Am I missing something? This all seems pretty straight-forward. | ||
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Mmmmmkay. | ||
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Mocsta trying to play this up as some masterminded scheme DEFINITELY makes him my lynch preference for today. Keep it simple, stupid. ##Vote: Mocsta | ||
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Un fucking real. | ||
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The OP describes this game as difficult, and experienced players were prioritized. Why? It's not because this game has no blues. Vanilla games are fairly common on mafia enthusiast sites and are considered quite normal. You don't see many around here because it's just more fun to play with power roles, but Vanilla games are not the reason this game is special. This game considered difficult because of the lynch mechanic and the lack of a scum NK. And it's for this reason that I'm 100% sure that Cheese is town and that scum did not bus Snarfs until it was absolutely certain that he was going to be lynched, if at all. With nothing but mislynches, scum cannot win the game until at best D5. D1: 9 T v 4 S D2: 8 T v 4 S D3: 7 T v 4 S D4: 6 T v 4 S D5 5 T v 4 S <------MYLO Because of the lack of a scum NK, when a scum member dies the game is prolonged by two cycles. D1: 9 T v 4 S D2: 9 T v 3 S D3: 8 T v 3 S D4: 7 T v 3 S D5 6 T v 3 S D6: 5 T v 3 S D7: 4 T v 3 S <---------MYLO And that's a lot of days and mislynches for scum to slip through. And the more scum that die, the more days the game lasts. Which is hard enough considering the longer a game goes, the better it is for town. But factor in the bolded days in my examples. On even days, scum are forced to nominate who to lynch. "But VE, isn't that just like the scum NK? Shouldn't we just always assume that scum will just nominate townies so the game ends faster?" Nope. That couldn't be further from the truth. Because there are only so many townies in the game, if scum nominate only townies, a pattern begins to emerge the longer the game goes on. One which if not broken will reveal the entire scumteam. Therefor, it is my firm belief that scum did NOT bus Snarfs until it was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Snarfs was going to die, if at all. And the fact that Mocsta is all up in arms crying "Double-Bus! It has to be a scum double-bus trick perpetrated by a known scum trickster!" makes me extremely suspicious that he was the first break in the pattern. I'm home from work now guys, and I'm formatting my notes into cases. This could take a while, but I encourage everyone to seriously consider Mocsta's motives in the meantime. | ||
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On February 07 2013 09:46 Mocsta wrote: hmm just back from a meeting and saw your post VE. What you wrote was interesting, I dont feel the same way you do about the first post + vote. At the time I interpreted it as a pressure vote, standard Day1 banter. Having said that, it left me null: breaking up fights is not alignment indicative. As for the final post you quoted; im at a cross roads too. I dont like he defended Palmar without reason, it was something I noted (internally) before too. But I dont know you enough to know if the meta argument is valid, aside from that, I dont see much from him to support a vote that could carry to a lynch. ====== Im not supporting a Snarfs lynch with the current post interactions. Yes, I need to see more from Snarfs, Yes, he has done a good job of standing in the middle, and Yes when asked to present info, it was not as analytical as I would have hoped. He is actuallyl asking us to look into the filter, instead of present his "finds". While the last point can be seem as scummy, im actually fixated on Yamato currently (I am about to start building a case / retort to his case on me) - its hard building a case at work ![]() What I didn't like about this post at the time was how he seemed to agree with my case, while at the same time not agreeing with Snarfs' lynch? The only town-motivated reasoning I can find for this is that maybe he was more certain of who he was pushing. At this point in time it's Yamato. Let's take a look at his case. On February 07 2013 11:01 Mocsta wrote: (1) Mocsta breakdown on Yamato Case against Mocsta http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=17#335 + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 20 2013 22:18 Mocsta wrote: On January 20 2013 22:11 Djodref wrote: @ Mocsta Sorry, I didn't see your answer. Do you really think yamato is going to be elected today ? I personally don't think so becauset yamato didn't "officially" campaign, and he is not known to have good reads so... If not, I'm curious to know what raised your attention in his posts. It doesnt matter if i think yamato is a candidate with a chance to win, I represent one vote out of 22. I thought yamato campaigned passive-aggressively; just like Toad. Its an approach I am oft in favour of when attempting to look squeaky-clean whilst attempting to manipulate. Having said that, its not pertinent to determining alignment. At least not with the information we have currently. This is from page 1 of Mocsta's filter in LIX, the game he was town. He gives out, in the part I bolded, his rationale in thinking Toad and I might be mafia, but in doing so reveals his own thought process when mafia, that being passive-aggressive is a way to play mafia. Yes, being passive-aggressive is “A” way to play mafia. There are also many other ways. Whats the point of this? You are meant to adapt to the environment at hand. I have given my thought process of how to manipulate staying off the radar; you can do that as town or scum. Your thought process is very lazy Yamato, and the outcome you have specified lacks conviction. In fact the conviction is so NOT present I can not even say you are confirmation biased. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 12 2013 16:38 Mocsta wrote: On January 12 2013 14:22 Sn0_Man wrote: I'm not denying, discussion is good/important and if nobody starts it scum autowin. However, if a scum can get control of town fast, they almost instawin. As a gambit, it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast. @Sn0_Man I appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy. BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid". I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt. When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute. You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention. I ask that you please think about the above. This is the first alignment-indicative post Mocsta made in NMM XXXV, the game he was mafia. What do you notice here? I do not see how this is alignment-indicative. If so, I would have been a scum read to everyone in the game. (P.S. I was a town read at that point). And as others stated, the tone is completely different between the two. Hence as above, lazy heuristics (is starting to become a common theme). Try again. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: Show nested quote + On February 06 2013 15:49 Mocsta wrote: Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph. You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else. I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia. I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town, I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier. He's making the same sort of argument about Oats this game that he did about Sn0 in the other game, that their play isn't "optimal" and they are "helping mafia". It's a fabricated read, in my eyes, and a fabricated contribution to say such things. It doesn't matter how a player is playing versus how you think the ideal town player SHOULD play, it matters if that player is playing in a way you know mafia would play. The argument is completely different. I have said repeatedly, Oats is taking a simplistic view at this game. His motto is “lynch the scummiest player”; which yes, whilst the aim of the game, is not as straight forward as that line. I have pointed out several reasons why that is case. You can read my filter if you have forgotten what they are. And I disagree with your last statement. The game of forum mafia is constantly changing. Meta shifts are constantly occurring. If we know how mafia play and react, and lynch off that; we would never mislynch and the game would be instantly solved. This is obviously not the case. Again, such a blunt statement and lazy heuristics. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 12 2013 22:38 Mocsta wrote: Well im going to bed anyways.. will check in the thread in the morning, and will then be away for at least 6 hrs. *sigh* Please generate some discussions USA shift ! There are still plenty of players who have not even posted yet. zebezt, trust me.. I know the feeling to want some discussion happening, but, as town we don't want to create spam. Unfortunately now its just a waiting game for some activity. [Unless 24hrs has expired.. thats my personal deadline for lurker calling] Show nested quote + On February 06 2013 17:10 Mocsta wrote: Oats, Stop getting over-defensive. Now you have to spell out actions. If you couldnt tell my post was a joke, you have problems. And your comment regarding my intentions is stupid. You admit yourself it is "optimal play'.. well no shit, why you think I am striving for that. Im not trying to re-invent the wheel. Again you are flinging shit at an active participant, and for what purpose? Still, no one is contributing; and the one guy who does, you tell him to "fuck off" whether joke or not. Lay off the juice and give others a chance to input into the thread. Those two posts showcase a trait I see in Mafia Mocsta's play, a preoccupation with "contribution" and "lurking" from other players. Aside from the meta similarity here, the mafia trait is that he's doing exactly what he thinks people give out town reads for, and indeed what some of you have given him a town read for this game, simply post. He calls out "lurkers" to appear to contribute and care about the town atmosphere, something I readily see as a common trait in his mafia game and this one. I already addressed this here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=19#373 TL;DR The mafia trait he is referring to, is actually me emulating my townie trait. Again argument that doesn’t hold up; its obvious the tone between the two quoted posted is different (as the motives are different). Lazy heuristics once again. That’s 4 strikes in a row. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: I highly doubt Mocsta is town. Who is his scum read so far? All I see in his filter is a bunch of arguing with Oats, and then arriving at the conclusion that he's town/null/whatever. It doesn't look to me like he's hunting mafia, it looks like to me that he's just trying to look town. Who is my scum read? Yamato, who has been online whilst I was active? Only Oats; who was constantly trying to argue with me, even when I was asking to walk away. Again, your entire case, each point referenced lacks any conviction – which is highly unusual for your meta known for confirmation bias. On top of this, your case is full of lazy heuristics. All points have been disputed (easily) This lack of care is enough to warrant your vote; but lets give benefit of the doubt and examine your town tells on Phagga, and the pressure that made you release the town tells. ============================== (2) Mocsta breakdown on Yamato read on Phagga + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote: Translation: I doubt Phagga scumminess, read = null to leaning townI see what Sloosh is saying about Phagga, and I agree on some level that his entrance to the thread has been weak, and relatively quiet so far. There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess, however, so what I need from him is some more meaningful contribution on things that aren't setup. That also goes for VE, who was here early spouting setup info, and then dropped off. On February 07 2013 02:34 yamato77 wrote: OK, that’s fine; giving out town tells early is dangerous so agreed. I'll make my case on Mocsta, then. I won't be giving out my town tells, however. On February 07 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote: Complete contradiction. The first post @ 02:00 says you doubt his scumminess.I said I agree with the general scumminess of phagga, in that he has some of the things I think mafia might do in his play so far. What I didn't tell you is why I doubt those, and I'm not going to. You've got to do better than equate phagga to Mocsta to prove he's scum. You're making an association case here, which is incredibly scummy this early in day 1. @ 03:42 you now say, some things are mafia oriented. In the same post you back pedal and say you still doubt it. Which is it, town or scum? You’re doing your best to stay in the middle and not commit. The contradictions are clear. You top off this post, by claiming Sl00sh is making association cases, which is clearly not happening (others already called you out on this) On February 07 2013 03:54 yamato77 wrote: Show nested quote + On February 07 2013 03:53 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh you. Of course I can't consolidate my posts. ^^ I'm not even spamming. One thing I didn't like about yamato's case on Mocsta doesn't even have to do with the content of the case...it's the lack of a vote attached to it. It's like he's feeling out the lynch before committing. Yamato accuses Mocsta of "fabricating" his read on Oats, but most of what he's accusing Mocsta of is not even alignment indicative. Honestly, I don't even know what "fabricating" a read means. On the whole, I don't like what I've seen from yamato so far. It's reminiscent of his attack on me in the last game we played. Lemme go take a look at phagga. I noticed that he was your top read only a few posts ago, now he's "to a lesser degree". Should I assume you're disliking yamato more now? I already have my vote on him. I understand what you're saying, though I don't think this is anything like my attack on you in Normal 4. This is an example of alignment: null post (Yamato). So what if your attack is nothing like Normal 4. Each game is different. That statement does not make you town in any way, shape or form. On February 07 2013 04:36 yamato77 wrote: Furthermore, note that if you don't think anyone could get a read on him at this point, I haven't exactly given my certain read on him either. My references to him have been that I think he's overall scummy, but there are things that make me doubt it, and that I want MORE from him to get a better read. I think this was just a misunderstanding. You thought I had a town read I didn't. Fair enough. Note “He’s” refers to phagga and is overall scummy. Noted 2hrs prior the below: On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote: Phagga …There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess This does not read as the above: I think he is scummy, but some things make me doubt it. Why the change within 2hrs 30? Perhaps the read of Phagga below will expound on the change in read. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: While this is, indeed, similar language to Mocsta and my mafia tell on him, the fact that he points out things about Mocsta in general so far makes me think him more town. Why would one mafia player pick at his mate this early in the game? It's a weak tell, like I've said, but it is one nonetheless. This is indeed weak, at least you admit it. How about this: Why would one town player pick at another town player early this game? How about this: Why would a mafia player pick at a town player early this game? Lazy heuristics again, you treat one example to suit your agenda, and do not consider any other options. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: He reached the same conclusion I did about Prplhz, something I find encouraging for his town alignment. Perhaps this is a little foolhardy, to think someone town for thinking like me, but giving out a quick town read like that is also a towntell to me in general. Check this out (before Phagga posted liking Prplhz) On February 06 2013 23:29 Mocsta wrote: Hi Palomar. Can u please expand on why? I recognise both alignmnets can break up fights. But I thought the way prplhz went about it was fairly constructive. I.e. I didn't get a scum vibe from it. So why is when Phagga does it, you get a town read. When I do the same thing, its not. Your point is moot; and is part of the contradictions Sl00sh noted about you. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: He calls out Palmar, and gives an accurate analysis of what he's done so far. While I know Palmar can, and will, do this as either mafia or town, the fact that he bothers to notice and point it out is somewhat encouraging. Again, I could be wrong about this as people agreeing with my first impressions aren't always town, but it's enough for me to doubt him being mafia, which is what I've said about him so far. Happy now? Do I need to point out the above post? I am asking Palmar to dictate why he made that choice. I take the same action as Phagga (and before him), yet he is town, I am not. ============================== TL;DR Your scum cases are full of lazy heuristics. Your town tells are full of double standards. You points lack conviction, and cant even be read as confirmation biased. Town has no reason to be sitting on the fence his openly; especially after receiving pressure. Incorporating all these points is clear scum motive to me. ##Vote: Yamato77 So he's not interested in lynching It doesn't wash. He doesn't read as any more certain of a Yamato lynch, but made a special effort to debunk my Snarfs lynch before it even took off. He didn't even let any pressure build on Snarfs before stating unequivocally that he would not support the lynch. Let's fast-forward to the Snarfs lynch. During this time, Mocsta's time was spent trying to justify not voting for Snarfs while simultaneously casting suspicion on the two people responsible for him being a candidate in the first place. See the following posts. On February 11 2013 16:34 Mocsta wrote: Show nested quote + On February 11 2013 16:15 Oatsmaster wrote: lol, so you dont think Snarf and Prp are scum? Your reasons for both of them are not cause they are scum, its cause they havent answered all the questions levied at them? Isnt that kinda of a shitty reason to focus on them? I am not saying Snarf/prplhz are not scum at all. I am saying: If you pressure 4-5 guys at the same time, maybe only 2 (if you're lucky 3) respond. Then the remaining 2 guys walk away and get forgotten. Hence, I think it is best to concentrate of 2 (max 3) guys; get the results we need, and then move on to the next target. Acknowledging that Snarfs is being looked at, but asks that people stop looking at him. On February 11 2013 16:55 Mocsta wrote: Show nested quote + On February 11 2013 16:46 Oatsmaster wrote: Um Im posting so no? Like lol k Mocsta. Im struggling to understand how not answering questions makes them your n1 scum read. Dude, don't be a Snarfs...read the thread; I am not going to summarise what has already been stated. Either way; why are you trying to banter with me? If I am a town read of yours; you're cluttering the thread arguing with me; and not providing any benefit for it. I'm not sure what this post is supposed to say about Snarfs' alignment - I think it's saying that Snarfs isn't reading the thread, which I take as a scumtell, but could just as easily be lazy town. It's extremely fence-sitty, something he can be found calling people out for much earlier than this. On February 12 2013 10:11 Mocsta wrote: Show nested quote + On February 12 2013 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah that got nixxed my bad. Cheese multiple times in his filter asks people to make a case on him, or "tunnel me bro"...with the intent to "get a better read on his accusers". That's too attention-whorey to be scummy. Not to mention he's one of like two people who have agreed with me on Snarfs like all game. I'm just not interested in lynching Cheese. Also, this is a minor point, but something that pretty well seals my read of him: I disagree. Asking people to discourse is not a town tell at all. Its an easy way to gain town cred; so i am surprised you have given CC the green light based on this type of justification. Further, people agreeing with your lynch candidates, is not indicative of town alignment either http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon So far, all I have seen are null tells; which you are construing as "sealed" town read. I welcome your read on yamato, hopefully there is more substance than the above. And here is Mocsta trying to discredit my town-read on CC while simultaneously trying to cast suspicion on me. I provided my reasoning, and frankly it doesn't matter to me if Mocsta thinks it's good enough because at this point I'm not interested in lynching Cheese...and from what I'm seeing in the thread, neither is Mocsta. So what's the point of this? It's to shed doubt on both CC and VE simultaneously. And what are CC and VE simultaneously doing? Trying to lynch scum Snarfs. Now, eventually Mocsta does capitulate on the Snarfs lynch. Let's see why. On February 13 2013 09:22 Mocsta wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Snarfs Its actually pretty weird he hasnt been present at all recently; especially now he is vote leader, and cant even make a statement. So rather than vote for his scumread, VE, he's settling on a lurker lynch? Yeeeeeah. I think Mocsta is scum. I think he used his early activity to hide behind 2 scummy lurkers in Nominations for some o dat EZ town cred. | ||
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slOosh now would be a good time to powwow with me...Cheese you too. You guys both seemed sure Mocsta was town, yet neither of you commented on my case. This simultaneously saddens and disturbs me...mainly because this is my list in order of most willing to lynch to least. prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese As you can see, you both share pretty much a free pass from me...I expected more feedback on Mocsta, though I wasn't here to press for it. I hope during this phase we can come to an intelligent decision on who to lynch. In the meantime though, ##Vote: prplhz I'll be around for a little bit, but tonight I'm going out with the wifey (V-day Rain Check). I expect the thread to blow up with thoughts and contributions from everyone, but judging from last phase I wouldn't be surprised to be disappointed. Right now, I'm going to revisit Oatsmaster's case on slOosh. He's my towniest null read (though to be fair he's been sheeping the piss out of me except for this last phase and I might be biased) and I'd like Oats' thoughts on players toward the top of my list. | ||
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I guess I'm wondering why nobody wanted to engage my "weak Mocsta case". I found it to be pretty solid, and was frankly shocked when Mocsta flipped green. I was taking an approach of "people opposing a Snarfs lynch" and thought for sure I found scum. Mocsta answered, but all he said was "it's bad, all your points show clear town motivation" which isn't the case obviously because I viewed them as scum points. It left me at kinda a loss as to where to go when Mocsta flipped town. Regarding today's lynch: I've got like 6 hours until lynch right? I'm going to read some filters and decide who I like most for lynch. Right now it seems like prplhz and jayb are the candidates being discussed the most, so that's where I'm starting. @slOosh It's fine, really. If you're town just help me find scum. phagga seems townier than jayb, and you're still not mentioning jay that I can see. I'm getting this sneaking suspicion that prplhz is just clocking this game in as town - his whole play has been lazy, but it's been consistently lazy...like it seems to me that if he's scum his people will have been like "yo dude do something plx" I've been operating under the assumption that "Hey push VE" was his instruction, but I'm finding that harder and harder to believe. What if prplhz is town? He's among the first pushers of VE, so if I had been lynched he would have been among the first blamed when I flipped. I'm filtering jayb first and I'd like your thoughts on him. In return, I'll revisit your phagga read after I filter jayb. | ||
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On February 17 2013 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh WTF slOosh now would be a good time to powwow with me...Cheese you too. You guys both seemed sure Mocsta was town, yet neither of you commented on my case. This simultaneously saddens and disturbs me...mainly because this is my list in order of most willing to lynch to least. prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese As you can see, you both share pretty much a free pass from me...I expected more feedback on Mocsta, though I wasn't here to press for it. I hope during this phase we can come to an intelligent decision on who to lynch. In the meantime though, ##Vote: prplhz I'll be around for a little bit, but tonight I'm going out with the wifey (V-day Rain Check). I expect the thread to blow up with thoughts and contributions from everyone, but judging from last phase I wouldn't be surprised to be disappointed. Right now, I'm going to revisit Oatsmaster's case on slOosh. He's my towniest null read (though to be fair he's been sheeping the piss out of me except for this last phase and I might be biased) and I'd like Oats' thoughts on players toward the top of my list. This is where I'm standing, but my read on prplhz is wavering based on what I just said. I didn't say I have no scumreads, I said I'm reevaluating my vote on prplhz. You wanna explain why you're misrepresenting my statement so blatantly? | ||
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I'll write up something more in-depth during the next cycle, but I'm approximately standing at jaybrundage, phagga, X Where X = one of yamato/slOosh I don't want to lynch either of yamato/slOosh though because I had a town read on them until now and I feel like whichever one is scum is going to help me lynch his buddies (thanks slOosh if it's you - you're a bro. ![]() I've got a suggestion on how we play the rest of this game out. I suggest that we follow slOosh' suggestion earlier on in the game - that we allow the Nominees to lead discussion on Nomination days. We then lynch the scummiest of the Nominees, and lynch the following day based on the conclusions reached BY the nominees the day before. Rinse, repeat. In this way, scum not only have to avoid led, focused discussion, but also have to insert themselves into the nominations if they hope to have any pull on the days we control the lynch. @Oatsmaster Everyone in the game is responsible for finding scum - not just the strong players. As we've seen over the course of this game, strong players can be wrong too. I thought I found scum in Mocsta and no one contested my case but Mocsta himself. Several people dismissed my case outright, saying they were lynching Mocsta on the assumption that he's town, but no one wanted to engage me on the validity of my case. What I'm trying to say is, go back and reread the game, and you tell me who is scum. I'll tell you if I think you're right or why I think you're wrong. I'll do the same, and that's how you play Mafia! ^^ | ||
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The thing about Oats is that he was here, trying to get discussion in the thread during the last cycle when it would have been so easy for scum to just sit and watch the world burn. That's pretty much the main point in my gut read of him, but like I said he's on my todo. When I filtered over last cycle I completely skipped his filter because he struck me as obvTown based on his interactions with Mocsta. With Mocsta's flip I haven't gone back to revisit those interactions though and that's something I intend to do. | ||
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That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter. If you have any other points that you think make me scum, I'm perfectly willing to pile fact upon fact until your reasoning crumbles beneath you. Sloosh' plan makes sense to me, except that he's operating under the assumption that everyone believes he's town, which simply isn't the case. Nor is it the case that everyone thinks that I'm town. Cheese is pretty much the only player in the game that the whole of the surviving players agrees is town (or at the very least is very unlikely scum.) I'm still waiting to see what Cheese is going to contribute to this cycle, because as it stands he's clearly contributing the least. | ||
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##Vote: yamato77 | ||
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Oatsmaster, Jaybrundage, phagga Here's my theory. Check out jay's post regarding me. Notice how he's pushing this idea that I wasn't Nominated because I'm scum. It seems sound in theory, except that I haven't been at the pinnacle of my game this game - I defended phagga against slOosh, I defended Oatsmaster against Mocsta - I've been inadvertently playing for the scumteam all game. Why would they want to get rid of me? jaybrundage has been crying "best mislynch NA" all game, like he does every game these days...except, if that's the case, then why hasn't scum tried to mislynch him yet? Something to consider. He wanted me gone bad on D3, and like everyone, is (somehow) convinced that the D3 lynch was between 2 scum. You need only look around today at the state of town, two mislynches away from losing the game, to see that this CAN NOT have been the case. I think debears is onto something with his case on jaybrundage. I think jay is scum. Oatsmaster has been a little harder to read, mainly because I'm not familiar with his play. He's taking sheeping to a whole different level this game. Go read his filter - he has asked who he should lynch every cycle. I wrote him off as town early in the game based on his interactions with Mocsta, but if you look through his filter it's apparent that he hasn't done shit this game. And then out of nowhere today, I'm a scumread for him. I'm not buying it. This cycle was planned, and the plan was "discredit/setup VE for mislynch". phagga is the weakest of my reads after rereading - but after rereading I'm also of the opinion that the three Nominees are all town, leaving phagga in the "could be scum" demographic for me. I didn't like slOosh' case on him (for reasons I stated) but he's right in that phagga keeps backing down from his scumreads (though somehow I bet he's just fine with his read on me) and isn't doing any scumhunting. To me, tomorrow's lynch should be jaybrundage>Oatsmaster>phagga VE should not be lynched because VE is town. | ||
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But you know, whatever. | ||
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I mean, I have 48 hours to convince the rest of town - I'm just saying, you're going all-in with rags bro. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: slOosh For what it's worth, I wanted it to be you who won this with me. Yamato killed me last time we were town together, so I wanted you to be the hero with me. | ||
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On February 20 2013 01:41 yamato77 wrote: VE has done shit all this game. He wasn't even responsible for Snarf's lynch. He wanted prplhz to die over him. I think his Snarfs read was just too look good if he got caught and flipped mafia. He never pushed him, as he claimed. He barely pushed anyone. He makes his reasons and then afk's. I think he might be the piece of the puzzle I've been missing. This is the whole of Yamato's case against me. His assertion is that I didn't want Snarfs to die, that I never "pushed" Snarfs. Here is my case on Snarfs. On February 07 2013 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote: I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone. First of all, something I noticed last night. Show nested quote + On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote: On February 06 2013 11:58 Oatsmaster wrote: Also, WHERE DID YOU GO VE? Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyes As far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game. This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this: Show nested quote + On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote: Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then. As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. Show nested quote + On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote: All right, so here are my thoughts: 1) On VE: My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that. But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE. **snip** Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained? It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me. Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit. As you can see, it's clear that Snarfs is a scumread. At this point he's my ONLY scumread. But obviously I'm also pushing for Palmar to die...a townie. I think that's where this whole breakdown is and why yamato is freaking the fuck out. He thinks that I'm pushing Snarfs to the side in favor of trying to kill townies. This is simply not the case, the problem is that I had this idea of how the game should be played (kill lurkers, find scum in process, profit) and I was waiting on input from players I trusted on my Snarfs case. Players like slOosh, Palmar, yamato...players I knew could tell me if I was seeing something where there was nothing or not. But this never came, and the thread moved on. So eventually I just kinda forgot about Snarfs - especially since at some point Palmar delurked and showed that he A) was NOT reading the thread, but B) did NOT want JX lynched. I took this as pretty much a scumclaim from him, because he not only didn't comment on my Snarfs case but he also was trying to derail the lynch OFF a lurker AFTER he'd reached majority. I thought that made him scum 100%. So here is the sequence of D1 events as they happened. 1) Snarfs makes case on VE 2) VE makes case on Snarfs 3) VE decides the lurker is public enemy #1 in this setup 4) VE votes Snarfs in attempt to get wagon going 5) VE realizes after Palmar delurks that he must be scum based on the thread actions he's taken 6) VE votes JX in based on Palmar's delurk and attempt to push wagon off JX So this is D1. I'll continue trying to explain my thought process later, as I have to get ready for work...but know that I'm only doing this because I believe that SOMEONE is willing to listen to reason. It honestly looks like I'm going to get lynched and town is going to lose...I want to believe that this isn't all in vain. Please keep an open mind, because I'm town. :/ | ||
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I took the very strong stance that I thought Snarfs was scum. This is evident in my filter. I also took the strong stance that I thought Palmar was scum. This is also in my filter. I also took the strong stance that Mocsta was scum. This is in my filter. The fact that you don't think I was "pushing my reads" is horseshit because I very clearly explained why I thought all of Snarfs, Palmar and Mocsta were scum. While it's true that I wasn't in here bashing you guys over the head trying to get you to vote with me, that doesn't change the fact that these are all stances I took that you're claiming I didn't take. | ||
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Yes, you do have confirmation bias. All of the points you're saying are "irrefutable" have been refuted - you're just flailing around now going "Just sheep me town I'm right" without even CONSIDERING that you might be wrong. WHICH YOU FUCKING ARE. | ||
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Seriously, I'm done trying to convince you. I'll just convince someone else to vote with me and you'll either have to consolidate or fucking LOSE Yamato. Tired of this. | ||
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If you're so hip to lose why not just concede? I'm down, fucking scum have us pwnzd. | ||
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You win Yamato. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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My final stab at scum are phagga, debears, yamato. That's pretty much the only possible combination that jives with all the facts. Debears just seems too sure that I'm town, in the face of pretty much everyone screaming otherwise. Yamato is pushing this wagon in a really scummy way and basically just confirms that his play to now has been a prelude to this moment. Honestly, who asks town to sheep them at LYLO? Fucking scum, obviously. Anyway, I'm not making a case, it's a waste of time. This game is already decided. I'll see you all in post-game. It truly has been a pleasure failing miserably with you guys. | ||
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Anyway, if town listens to me we'd be lynching scum today instead of me. | ||
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You're not in my scum list anymore because today I had the pleasure of reading one of our previous scum games, BC's Arkham Asylum. I totally spaced that I had played scum with you before, back in the day. The whole of your filter in that game was THREE PAGES, and your average post length was 2 lines. This game ISN'T EVEN CLOSE to your scum meta. | ||
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Debears might be mafia - and like I said I'm thinking so based on his hard defense of me...but frankly phagga is scummier than Debears and is basically absent during this, our most important day in the game. Debears is here, and honestly that buys him life until we flip phagga. Cheese is....well, Cheese definitely isn't scum. I stand by my assessment that scum wouldn't have bussed until the very last moment. It just doesn't make sense in this setup, they couldn't have hoped to win. And Cheese has been in every nomination since. It literally makes no sense to think Cheese is scum. Honestly yamato/Oats are interchangable. I had intended to go through Oats filter today, but Yamato has literally beat the care out of me. And again, townies should be interested in figuring out the game, not punching through a lynch, at LYLO. Oats has shown more flexibility in his mindset, and thus I find him townier than yamato. You say Yamato has been stating that your play in this game wasn't your scum meta. He hasn't shown it though...only asserted it. He never said why. Did that not bother you? | ||
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My read on Yamato is based entirely on his play THIS PHASE. I haven't gone over his filter and I don't intend to. You have a point about the martyr thing, but frankly that doesn't excuse his absolute refusal to acknowledge that he might be lynching a townie. And he is jay. | ||
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What do you want? "Oh, well since you say that, obviously it's Oats/Cheese/whoever the fuck" Nope. That's not how I operate. You have to understand that that martyr post meant NOTHING to me. Literally nothing. Look what it got slOosh! I fucking nailed him for it! I can't abide fucking idiots doing stupid shit because they think they're right when they're not...so I showed slOosh the fucking door hoping I could talk some sense into yamato this phase. And look where it got me! | ||
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VisceraEyes (Lots): All the idiot townies phagga (None): Not nearly enough. Deadline in ~4 hours. Currently VisceraEyes is set to be mislynched. | ||
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Look, I know I'm going to die. For this reason I'm not going to waste time trying to get my scum reads lynched. Instead, I'm going to take an introspective look at my play and try to explain why I've made the decisions I did. Day One - Lynch the Lurker Early on in the day I had a town read on Mocsta and Oats. Their back and forth just smacked of town on town, in spite of Oats screaming otherwise. This interaction however caused me to take my first (yeah first fucking sue me) look at the OP and the mechanics involved in this game. I had an early slight scum read on Palmar based on his inactivity - though I'm well aware of his penchant for fucking off regardless of his alignment. It had to do with prplhz being the target of his suspicions. I was looking specifically for prplhz' entrance into the game, because the last few scum games what I remember of prplhz was his tone was very indicative of his alignment. This game was no different, and he came into the game SOUNDING very town. The problem was that he fucked off early, deigning to bitch about thread atmosphere and do nothing of import else. For this reason, I wanted to pressure him to see what happened and chose him as the subject of my lurker lynch. I had a scum read on Palmar, and because I'd been shot down from lynching Palmar I went after prplhz as a lurker lynch. I also had a scum read on Snarfs, who ended up being the subject of my first case. It was largely ignored - the only person I remember commenting on it was Mocsta, who said that he agreed with my points, but did NOT want to lynch Snarfs. This led to my waiting for further input, and subsequently my pushing of a lurker lynch. Near the end of D1, Palmar had come into the thread and tried to derail the current lynch in favor of….I don't even remember who, maybe prplhz some more. But because of this I was stricken certain that Palmar was mafia. I spent the entirety of the D1>2 Nomination Phase analyzing the previous day with the knowledge that Palmar WAS Mafia. Day 2 - Nomination Day Once the nominations were announced, I was put to my first hard decision. Palmar who had been a serious scum read had gone up for nomination…and based on my analysis of the setup I had determined that scum would likely put up three townies. So, it became a question of what I believed to be more likely: that Palmar was phoning in this game as town, or Palmar was ballsy scum. Based on his inactivity, I ruled out the latter and ultimately decided that Palmar was likely town, along with Mocsta whom I had a town read on from the previous day. slOosh was my only null in this list of 3, and I was leaning SLIGHTLY scum on slOosh at this point, based on him ignoring my Snarfs case. However with the nomination I was forced to rethink this read. D2 also brought slOosh' original case on me, which was a sour pill to swallow considering the fact that I just had to rethink my own scum read on him. Most of D2 for me was spent trying to explain my inexplicable scum read on Palmar, and eventually trying to talk slOosh down from his read on me. All and all, it was pretty much a disaster…because not only did I not get to push my own Snarfs read in the thread (I was presently following slOosh' advice in allowing the nominees to lead the discussions) but I also developed an actual scum read on prplhz based on his incessant inactivity and refusal to do anything other than call me scum for no reason. Not to mention the fact that because slOosh was pushing this case on me for something he was guilty of himself, I had also developed a scum read on him…further taking me away from my original case on Snarfs. Day 3 - Bowel Evacuation Day three was the first time my ass was on the line…and actually the first time I was ready to die to further town's agenda. slOosh had gained quite the following and eventually the lynch was between myself and Snarfs. After repeatedly (and CAPSLOCKLY) attesting my innocence, and after Cheese came with a master-case (or something) slOosh eventually backed off and we were able to bag our first scum. I think this is where my problems actually began though. Based on the Snarfs lynch, I believe that scum had to try something obscure to implicate me - something subtle. I think this is when it was decided that I wouldn't ever be put up for nominations…and Day 4 was just about to start. Day 4 - Mocsta and the Mislynch Day 4 marks the last day I put any effort into this game, and for that I apologize. D4 brought Mocsta and his case against me, featuring none other than the "double-bus" theory everyone seems to be subscribing to today. Laughably bad in context, because of how I had decided the most likely way scum would play in this setup, but ultimately good enough to further exacerbate the doubt already latent in the thread surrounding me. Obviously I was not nominated…but Mocsta was. I found this to be highly suspect, and made my final and fatal error in judgement - deciding that based on all of this, Mocsta HAD to be scum. He flipped town though, and that pretty much decimated my will to continue trying. In Conclusion In my opinion, scum have played a MASTERFUL game. My final guess for scum right now is phagga, debears, yamato …but honestly wouldn't be surprised to be COMPLETELY off. Their agenda is extremely convoluted to me and I have no idea what's actually scummy and what's actually townie stupidity/paranoia/whatever. What I do know is that this is a mislynch, and that the game ends with me dying. As I said, I apologize for not putting more effort into this game. Feel free to lay into me in post-game. I deserve it, though not as much as you probably think. | ||
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I don't suck either, dick. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: phagga | ||
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There, that better? | ||
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I'm not mad at you guys for lynching me anymore. I still would prefer to lynch scum obviously, but I'm not screaming over this anymore. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: jaybrundage | ||
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*hugs* | ||
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On February 23 2013 11:13 yamato77 wrote: I wrote my cases by myself. I asked Prom for feedback after I posted it. No one helped me catch mafia. I got advice on how not to be a terrible tunneling, scummy looking townie for once. I KNOW IT WAS AWESOME ^^ | ||
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</3 | ||
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I THOUGHT I HAD PUSHED SNARFS HARDER THAN I DID. I totally spaced the fact that I actually started pushing prplhz and slOosh as scum HARDER than I pushed Snarfs on D3...so I seriously thought "WTF all I've DONE is push Snarfs the fuck are they talking about?" | ||
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On February 23 2013 11:27 prplhz wrote: Show nested quote + On February 23 2013 11:26 VisceraEyes wrote: prplhz I hope I'm always scum when you're town. <3 ![]() Just work on voicing your thoughts man. Sitting on your ass and being right does nothing. | ||
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On February 23 2013 11:34 GMarshal wrote: Postgame analysis from me in a few days (i won't have reliable internet till monday) I still think scum could have won from this position, but oh well. A few blunders, quite a bit of smart play, and some interesting stuff to talk about. And a poll Poll: Host Nomination II? Yes (8) No (0) 8 total votes Your vote: Host Nomination II? (rebalanced obviously, probably the 9 player version) Voted yes, assuming 9p. ![]() | ||
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That probably goes without saying, but I wanted to say it anyway just because. And now that I've said it, I will say this. I had an unfair advantage in this game due to Obvious' observations. Not because I was picking his brain about things, but simply because Obvious had many observations about the gamestate. It's not his FAULT that I had an advantage, but because of the way I chose to disseminate the information I had to him over the course of the game, coupled with the fact that we both were so enthusiastic about the exercise, I was able to get a constant objective viewpoint on the gamestate. As slOosh keenly pointed out, this is useful information - not to an inexperienced scumplayer but to ANY scum player, or verily any player in general...because ultimately the game is supposed to be played objectively. But as scum I start the game with an informational advantage, and a persistent objective viewpoint is simply more powerful then a townie with presumably the same information his shadow would have. For this reason, I opted to actively take steps to try and lessen his impact on my perception of the game - by slowly feeding him the names of my team over the course of the game. In this way, his viewpoint over the course of the game slowly skewed to a more scum-like information-advantaged viewpoint. For instance, I think he guessed Cheese first early based on the posts he demonstrated and I was so impressed by how he came to the conclusion that I told him he was right. I also told him about Snarfs, but not until Cheese was already swinging the wagon around. My goal was to try and lessen his impact (being his objective viewpoint) on my play by removing his objectivity, but giving him room to improve his play not just as scum, but the game in general. I only say it was unfair because Obvious was so enthusiastic about the arrangement, which in turn caused me to be enthusiastic about it. I could tell he was excited to observe the gamestate and the prospect of improving his play immediately. Because I'm familiar with a few of my fellow players PM habits, I can say with confidence that the exercise of shadowing a player will vary from game to game and from player to mentor. In general however, it is my opinion that if newer players think that they have something to gain by shadowing another player during a game, provided the host doesn't care and the player willing, I say go for it. I had a lot of fun with the exercise and I think Obvious took a lot away from it, which was the goal, and I'm happy to have had a part in it. I apologize if it seems unfair or whatever, but like I said - for my part I tried to lessen its impact on my play in my own way, so I feel it's cool. I'm interested in others' opinion on this too though, because like I said, I think Obvious took a lot from it and for my part I think hosts should allow it in their games but also will respect hosts wishes who do not. Also LOL slOosh was the one who called me out on it. <3 | ||
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I wanted them to flip me green and then 10 minutes later flip me red with our concession. Would that not have been priceless?! | ||
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I was a little salty that Acro didn't have me coach Obvious too, all things considered...but yeah Mocsta kinda gave me a nod in this thread and if there had been observant townie newbies reading, he basically outted himself as scum in that game in this thread. DON'T TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES MOCSTA <3 | ||
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Soon people will listen when I say things on a scumteam. I really need to work on my ability to make fake cases. | ||
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The blandness was an attempt at appearing thoughtful and stoic about the setup, which I tried to portray by speaking so much of the setup and fashing my posts about the setup with the most obvious care. It's subtle, but I'm a subtle player. I've inserted what you call "insane" into other games. Remember my Clarity Vig Case in....what was that you were in it...that was a game I was scum in where I was like "Hmmm I need to look like town VE fast...I KNOW INSANE FUCKING PARANOID CASE ON VIG CLAIM!!!" | ||
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Mafia, I'm fucking coming for you bros. For I. Am. TOWN. and Guys I'm town. Rejoice! ...because I'm not seeing what you apparently think I should see. | ||
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On February 25 2013 02:17 ObviousOne wrote: To be fair, when aren't people crying foul treachery regarding VE? QFT But seriously though, it was my own fault for not putting in the effort required. That late in the game, it's CRUCIAL that you keep up the appearance of caring about finding scum, and at that point in the game I had just lost my spark. It wouldn't have taken much to get it back (for example, if yamato had been lynched instead of slOosh D6 UGH) but everyone's points on my lack of scumhunting and general indifference to town's agenda were perfectly valid and I recognize and acknowledge that fact. | ||
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![]() I think he never actually read my case and when he did he found he agreed with it. At least that was the perception. | ||
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