EPTNomination Mafia - Page 7
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VisceraEyes
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Which begs the question: have they already? | ||
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On February 14 2013 09:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hey VE, I know I saved your ass from being lynched and all, but it doesn't give you the excuse to jack off and do nothing the rest of the game. So kindly do things my good sir. Love, Mr. Cheesecake P.S. What is with people using the word "waffles" for Phagga and people using the word expounded this game? Like jeeze. It's made this re-skim painful. Also VE, what you think of Mocsta. His filter is like quicksand; I just keep getting sucked deeper and deeper until I can't breathe. I wrote him off as town because nominated D2. (If you want to save the response for apres nominations, it's kewl brah) I'm doing things sir...I'm just waiting until after dawn. You know, like my post said. I'm reading Mocsta as null until after the nominations. Then who knows?! | ||
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On February 14 2013 09:06 Mocsta wrote: Dunno mate. So whose ya best town read at the moment? Im sure that won't hurt nominations. If they in; it becomes a choice of two: so easier And if they are not: you didnt change nomination outcome so doesnt hurt either way to share. The idea is to not get them in Mocsta - if they weren't in before I don't want them in because I said something. The choice isn't EASIER for me to pick someone to lynch among people scum chose because scum chose them. The idea of the nomination phase is to make town choose who to lynch among people they wouldn't normally ordinarily lynch...or at least that's the optimal to play the nomination phase. If we all start tossing out our best town reads then that makes scum's job really really easy. Am I missing something? This all seems pretty straight-forward. | ||
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Mmmmmkay. | ||
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Mocsta trying to play this up as some masterminded scheme DEFINITELY makes him my lynch preference for today. Keep it simple, stupid. ##Vote: Mocsta | ||
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Un fucking real. | ||
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The OP describes this game as difficult, and experienced players were prioritized. Why? It's not because this game has no blues. Vanilla games are fairly common on mafia enthusiast sites and are considered quite normal. You don't see many around here because it's just more fun to play with power roles, but Vanilla games are not the reason this game is special. This game considered difficult because of the lynch mechanic and the lack of a scum NK. And it's for this reason that I'm 100% sure that Cheese is town and that scum did not bus Snarfs until it was absolutely certain that he was going to be lynched, if at all. With nothing but mislynches, scum cannot win the game until at best D5. D1: 9 T v 4 S D2: 8 T v 4 S D3: 7 T v 4 S D4: 6 T v 4 S D5 5 T v 4 S <------MYLO Because of the lack of a scum NK, when a scum member dies the game is prolonged by two cycles. D1: 9 T v 4 S D2: 9 T v 3 S D3: 8 T v 3 S D4: 7 T v 3 S D5 6 T v 3 S D6: 5 T v 3 S D7: 4 T v 3 S <---------MYLO And that's a lot of days and mislynches for scum to slip through. And the more scum that die, the more days the game lasts. Which is hard enough considering the longer a game goes, the better it is for town. But factor in the bolded days in my examples. On even days, scum are forced to nominate who to lynch. "But VE, isn't that just like the scum NK? Shouldn't we just always assume that scum will just nominate townies so the game ends faster?" Nope. That couldn't be further from the truth. Because there are only so many townies in the game, if scum nominate only townies, a pattern begins to emerge the longer the game goes on. One which if not broken will reveal the entire scumteam. Therefor, it is my firm belief that scum did NOT bus Snarfs until it was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Snarfs was going to die, if at all. And the fact that Mocsta is all up in arms crying "Double-Bus! It has to be a scum double-bus trick perpetrated by a known scum trickster!" makes me extremely suspicious that he was the first break in the pattern. I'm home from work now guys, and I'm formatting my notes into cases. This could take a while, but I encourage everyone to seriously consider Mocsta's motives in the meantime. | ||
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On February 07 2013 09:46 Mocsta wrote: hmm just back from a meeting and saw your post VE. What you wrote was interesting, I dont feel the same way you do about the first post + vote. At the time I interpreted it as a pressure vote, standard Day1 banter. Having said that, it left me null: breaking up fights is not alignment indicative. As for the final post you quoted; im at a cross roads too. I dont like he defended Palmar without reason, it was something I noted (internally) before too. But I dont know you enough to know if the meta argument is valid, aside from that, I dont see much from him to support a vote that could carry to a lynch. ====== Im not supporting a Snarfs lynch with the current post interactions. Yes, I need to see more from Snarfs, Yes, he has done a good job of standing in the middle, and Yes when asked to present info, it was not as analytical as I would have hoped. He is actuallyl asking us to look into the filter, instead of present his "finds". While the last point can be seem as scummy, im actually fixated on Yamato currently (I am about to start building a case / retort to his case on me) - its hard building a case at work  What I didn't like about this post at the time was how he seemed to agree with my case, while at the same time not agreeing with Snarfs' lynch? The only town-motivated reasoning I can find for this is that maybe he was more certain of who he was pushing. At this point in time it's Yamato. Let's take a look at his case. On February 07 2013 11:01 Mocsta wrote: (1) Mocsta breakdown on Yamato Case against Mocsta http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=17#335 + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: This is from page 1 of Mocsta's filter in LIX, the game he was town. He gives out, in the part I bolded, his rationale in thinking Toad and I might be mafia, but in doing so reveals his own thought process when mafia, that being passive-aggressive is a way to play mafia. Yes, being passive-aggressive is “A” way to play mafia. There are also many other ways. Whats the point of this? You are meant to adapt to the environment at hand. I have given my thought process of how to manipulate staying off the radar; you can do that as town or scum. Your thought process is very lazy Yamato, and the outcome you have specified lacks conviction. In fact the conviction is so NOT present I can not even say you are confirmation biased. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: This is the first alignment-indicative post Mocsta made in NMM XXXV, the game he was mafia. What do you notice here? I do not see how this is alignment-indicative. If so, I would have been a scum read to everyone in the game. (P.S. I was a town read at that point). And as others stated, the tone is completely different between the two. Hence as above, lazy heuristics (is starting to become a common theme). Try again. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: He's making the same sort of argument about Oats this game that he did about Sn0 in the other game, that their play isn't "optimal" and they are "helping mafia". It's a fabricated read, in my eyes, and a fabricated contribution to say such things. It doesn't matter how a player is playing versus how you think the ideal town player SHOULD play, it matters if that player is playing in a way you know mafia would play. The argument is completely different. I have said repeatedly, Oats is taking a simplistic view at this game. His motto is “lynch the scummiest player”; which yes, whilst the aim of the game, is not as straight forward as that line. I have pointed out several reasons why that is case. You can read my filter if you have forgotten what they are. And I disagree with your last statement. The game of forum mafia is constantly changing. Meta shifts are constantly occurring. If we know how mafia play and react, and lynch off that; we would never mislynch and the game would be instantly solved. This is obviously not the case. Again, such a blunt statement and lazy heuristics. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: Those two posts showcase a trait I see in Mafia Mocsta's play, a preoccupation with "contribution" and "lurking" from other players. Aside from the meta similarity here, the mafia trait is that he's doing exactly what he thinks people give out town reads for, and indeed what some of you have given him a town read for this game, simply post. He calls out "lurkers" to appear to contribute and care about the town atmosphere, something I readily see as a common trait in his mafia game and this one. I already addressed this here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=19#373 TL;DR The mafia trait he is referring to, is actually me emulating my townie trait. Again argument that doesn’t hold up; its obvious the tone between the two quoted posted is different (as the motives are different). Lazy heuristics once again. That’s 4 strikes in a row. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote: I highly doubt Mocsta is town. Who is his scum read so far? All I see in his filter is a bunch of arguing with Oats, and then arriving at the conclusion that he's town/null/whatever. It doesn't look to me like he's hunting mafia, it looks like to me that he's just trying to look town. Who is my scum read? Yamato, who has been online whilst I was active? Only Oats; who was constantly trying to argue with me, even when I was asking to walk away. Again, your entire case, each point referenced lacks any conviction – which is highly unusual for your meta known for confirmation bias. On top of this, your case is full of lazy heuristics. All points have been disputed (easily) This lack of care is enough to warrant your vote; but lets give benefit of the doubt and examine your town tells on Phagga, and the pressure that made you release the town tells. ============================== (2) Mocsta breakdown on Yamato read on Phagga + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote: Translation: I doubt Phagga scumminess, read = null to leaning townI see what Sloosh is saying about Phagga, and I agree on some level that his entrance to the thread has been weak, and relatively quiet so far. There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess, however, so what I need from him is some more meaningful contribution on things that aren't setup. That also goes for VE, who was here early spouting setup info, and then dropped off. On February 07 2013 02:34 yamato77 wrote: OK, that’s fine; giving out town tells early is dangerous so agreed. I'll make my case on Mocsta, then. I won't be giving out my town tells, however. On February 07 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote: Complete contradiction. The first post @ 02:00 says you doubt his scumminess.I said I agree with the general scumminess of phagga, in that he has some of the things I think mafia might do in his play so far. What I didn't tell you is why I doubt those, and I'm not going to. You've got to do better than equate phagga to Mocsta to prove he's scum. You're making an association case here, which is incredibly scummy this early in day 1. @ 03:42 you now say, some things are mafia oriented. In the same post you back pedal and say you still doubt it. Which is it, town or scum? You’re doing your best to stay in the middle and not commit. The contradictions are clear. You top off this post, by claiming Sl00sh is making association cases, which is clearly not happening (others already called you out on this) On February 07 2013 03:54 yamato77 wrote: I already have my vote on him. I understand what you're saying, though I don't think this is anything like my attack on you in Normal 4. This is an example of alignment: null post (Yamato). So what if your attack is nothing like Normal 4. Each game is different. That statement does not make you town in any way, shape or form. On February 07 2013 04:36 yamato77 wrote: Furthermore, note that if you don't think anyone could get a read on him at this point, I haven't exactly given my certain read on him either. My references to him have been that I think he's overall scummy, but there are things that make me doubt it, and that I want MORE from him to get a better read. I think this was just a misunderstanding. You thought I had a town read I didn't. Fair enough. Note “He’s” refers to phagga and is overall scummy. Noted 2hrs prior the below: On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote: Phagga …There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess This does not read as the above: I think he is scummy, but some things make me doubt it. Why the change within 2hrs 30? Perhaps the read of Phagga below will expound on the change in read. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: While this is, indeed, similar language to Mocsta and my mafia tell on him, the fact that he points out things about Mocsta in general so far makes me think him more town. Why would one mafia player pick at his mate this early in the game? It's a weak tell, like I've said, but it is one nonetheless. This is indeed weak, at least you admit it. How about this: Why would one town player pick at another town player early this game? How about this: Why would a mafia player pick at a town player early this game? Lazy heuristics again, you treat one example to suit your agenda, and do not consider any other options. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: He reached the same conclusion I did about Prplhz, something I find encouraging for his town alignment. Perhaps this is a little foolhardy, to think someone town for thinking like me, but giving out a quick town read like that is also a towntell to me in general. Check this out (before Phagga posted liking Prplhz) On February 06 2013 23:29 Mocsta wrote: Hi Palomar. Can u please expand on why? I recognise both alignmnets can break up fights. But I thought the way prplhz went about it was fairly constructive. I.e. I didn't get a scum vibe from it. So why is when Phagga does it, you get a town read. When I do the same thing, its not. Your point is moot; and is part of the contradictions Sl00sh noted about you. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote: He calls out Palmar, and gives an accurate analysis of what he's done so far. While I know Palmar can, and will, do this as either mafia or town, the fact that he bothers to notice and point it out is somewhat encouraging. Again, I could be wrong about this as people agreeing with my first impressions aren't always town, but it's enough for me to doubt him being mafia, which is what I've said about him so far. Happy now? Do I need to point out the above post? I am asking Palmar to dictate why he made that choice. I take the same action as Phagga (and before him), yet he is town, I am not. ============================== TL;DR Your scum cases are full of lazy heuristics. Your town tells are full of double standards. You points lack conviction, and cant even be read as confirmation biased. Town has no reason to be sitting on the fence his openly; especially after receiving pressure. Incorporating all these points is clear scum motive to me. ##Vote: Yamato77 So he's not interested in lynching It doesn't wash. He doesn't read as any more certain of a Yamato lynch, but made a special effort to debunk my Snarfs lynch before it even took off. He didn't even let any pressure build on Snarfs before stating unequivocally that he would not support the lynch. Let's fast-forward to the Snarfs lynch. During this time, Mocsta's time was spent trying to justify not voting for Snarfs while simultaneously casting suspicion on the two people responsible for him being a candidate in the first place. See the following posts. On February 11 2013 16:34 Mocsta wrote: I am not saying Snarf/prplhz are not scum at all. I am saying: If you pressure 4-5 guys at the same time, maybe only 2 (if you're lucky 3) respond. Then the remaining 2 guys walk away and get forgotten. Hence, I think it is best to concentrate of 2 (max 3) guys; get the results we need, and then move on to the next target. Acknowledging that Snarfs is being looked at, but asks that people stop looking at him. On February 11 2013 16:55 Mocsta wrote: Dude, don't be a Snarfs...read the thread; I am not going to summarise what has already been stated. Either way; why are you trying to banter with me? If I am a town read of yours; you're cluttering the thread arguing with me; and not providing any benefit for it. I'm not sure what this post is supposed to say about Snarfs' alignment - I think it's saying that Snarfs isn't reading the thread, which I take as a scumtell, but could just as easily be lazy town. It's extremely fence-sitty, something he can be found calling people out for much earlier than this. On February 12 2013 10:11 Mocsta wrote: I disagree. Asking people to discourse is not a town tell at all. Its an easy way to gain town cred; so i am surprised you have given CC the green light based on this type of justification. Further, people agreeing with your lynch candidates, is not indicative of town alignment either http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon So far, all I have seen are null tells; which you are construing as "sealed" town read. I welcome your read on yamato, hopefully there is more substance than the above. And here is Mocsta trying to discredit my town-read on CC while simultaneously trying to cast suspicion on me. I provided my reasoning, and frankly it doesn't matter to me if Mocsta thinks it's good enough because at this point I'm not interested in lynching Cheese...and from what I'm seeing in the thread, neither is Mocsta. So what's the point of this? It's to shed doubt on both CC and VE simultaneously. And what are CC and VE simultaneously doing? Trying to lynch scum Snarfs. Now, eventually Mocsta does capitulate on the Snarfs lynch. Let's see why. On February 13 2013 09:22 Mocsta wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Snarfs Its actually pretty weird he hasnt been present at all recently; especially now he is vote leader, and cant even make a statement. So rather than vote for his scumread, VE, he's settling on a lurker lynch? Yeeeeeah. I think Mocsta is scum. I think he used his early activity to hide behind 2 scummy lurkers in Nominations for some o dat EZ town cred. | ||
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slOosh now would be a good time to powwow with me...Cheese you too. You guys both seemed sure Mocsta was town, yet neither of you commented on my case. This simultaneously saddens and disturbs me...mainly because this is my list in order of most willing to lynch to least. prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese As you can see, you both share pretty much a free pass from me...I expected more feedback on Mocsta, though I wasn't here to press for it. I hope during this phase we can come to an intelligent decision on who to lynch. In the meantime though, ##Vote: prplhz I'll be around for a little bit, but tonight I'm going out with the wifey (V-day Rain Check). I expect the thread to blow up with thoughts and contributions from everyone, but judging from last phase I wouldn't be surprised to be disappointed. Right now, I'm going to revisit Oatsmaster's case on slOosh. He's my towniest null read (though to be fair he's been sheeping the piss out of me except for this last phase and I might be biased) and I'd like Oats' thoughts on players toward the top of my list. | ||
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I guess I'm wondering why nobody wanted to engage my "weak Mocsta case". I found it to be pretty solid, and was frankly shocked when Mocsta flipped green. I was taking an approach of "people opposing a Snarfs lynch" and thought for sure I found scum. Mocsta answered, but all he said was "it's bad, all your points show clear town motivation" which isn't the case obviously because I viewed them as scum points. It left me at kinda a loss as to where to go when Mocsta flipped town. Regarding today's lynch: I've got like 6 hours until lynch right? I'm going to read some filters and decide who I like most for lynch. Right now it seems like prplhz and jayb are the candidates being discussed the most, so that's where I'm starting. @slOosh It's fine, really. If you're town just help me find scum. phagga seems townier than jayb, and you're still not mentioning jay that I can see. I'm getting this sneaking suspicion that prplhz is just clocking this game in as town - his whole play has been lazy, but it's been consistently lazy...like it seems to me that if he's scum his people will have been like "yo dude do something plx" I've been operating under the assumption that "Hey push VE" was his instruction, but I'm finding that harder and harder to believe. What if prplhz is town? He's among the first pushers of VE, so if I had been lynched he would have been among the first blamed when I flipped. I'm filtering jayb first and I'd like your thoughts on him. In return, I'll revisit your phagga read after I filter jayb. | ||
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On February 17 2013 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh WTF slOosh now would be a good time to powwow with me...Cheese you too. You guys both seemed sure Mocsta was town, yet neither of you commented on my case. This simultaneously saddens and disturbs me...mainly because this is my list in order of most willing to lynch to least. prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese As you can see, you both share pretty much a free pass from me...I expected more feedback on Mocsta, though I wasn't here to press for it. I hope during this phase we can come to an intelligent decision on who to lynch. In the meantime though, ##Vote: prplhz I'll be around for a little bit, but tonight I'm going out with the wifey (V-day Rain Check). I expect the thread to blow up with thoughts and contributions from everyone, but judging from last phase I wouldn't be surprised to be disappointed. Right now, I'm going to revisit Oatsmaster's case on slOosh. He's my towniest null read (though to be fair he's been sheeping the piss out of me except for this last phase and I might be biased) and I'd like Oats' thoughts on players toward the top of my list. This is where I'm standing, but my read on prplhz is wavering based on what I just said. I didn't say I have no scumreads, I said I'm reevaluating my vote on prplhz. You wanna explain why you're misrepresenting my statement so blatantly? | ||
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I'll write up something more in-depth during the next cycle, but I'm approximately standing at jaybrundage, phagga, X Where X = one of yamato/slOosh I don't want to lynch either of yamato/slOosh though because I had a town read on them until now and I feel like whichever one is scum is going to help me lynch his buddies (thanks slOosh if it's you - you're a bro.  )I've got a suggestion on how we play the rest of this game out. I suggest that we follow slOosh' suggestion earlier on in the game - that we allow the Nominees to lead discussion on Nomination days. We then lynch the scummiest of the Nominees, and lynch the following day based on the conclusions reached BY the nominees the day before. Rinse, repeat. In this way, scum not only have to avoid led, focused discussion, but also have to insert themselves into the nominations if they hope to have any pull on the days we control the lynch. @Oatsmaster Everyone in the game is responsible for finding scum - not just the strong players. As we've seen over the course of this game, strong players can be wrong too. I thought I found scum in Mocsta and no one contested my case but Mocsta himself. Several people dismissed my case outright, saying they were lynching Mocsta on the assumption that he's town, but no one wanted to engage me on the validity of my case. What I'm trying to say is, go back and reread the game, and you tell me who is scum. I'll tell you if I think you're right or why I think you're wrong. I'll do the same, and that's how you play Mafia! ^^ | ||
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The thing about Oats is that he was here, trying to get discussion in the thread during the last cycle when it would have been so easy for scum to just sit and watch the world burn. That's pretty much the main point in my gut read of him, but like I said he's on my todo. When I filtered over last cycle I completely skipped his filter because he struck me as obvTown based on his interactions with Mocsta. With Mocsta's flip I haven't gone back to revisit those interactions though and that's something I intend to do. | ||
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