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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 16:51 Oatsmaster wrote: Wait so why is Phagga and debears scum, and jay town? Without looking at filters, who has been very involved and participating in odd day lynches? Who has been looking at scum outside the nomination pool on even day lynches? I'll pull out some of the phagga cases that I saw rereading - gimme a min, | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
CC's case on phagga. Notice how he looks at different things and also comes to the same conclusion. When town players with different styles agree on scum for different reasons, it is good indicator that they are scum. Mocsta's perspective on phagga. Read the several following posts afterward too. slOosh's case on his voteswitch | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:02 Oatsmaster wrote: So you think my defence of phagga is wrong? Sloosh. Make your own reason and case as to why those 2 dudes are scum and Jay is town. Yes I disagree with your conclusions on phagga, as posted before. On February 20 2013 15:08 slOosh wrote: Without looking, can you tell me what phagga's town reads / scum reads are? The answer is, probably not (even if I check his filter it's kinda hard). @Oats - Snarfs also defended a Palmar lynch D1, - As scum you also fear going against the flow. Aka, his backing off of VE and yamato cases when they weren't getting support. - The posts you quote are almost a week old. What new content has he produced? Does it look like he has any scum reads, or does it look like he is making them as he goes along? In the process of a full reread (yes another one). Will post up huge thoughts hopefully within a couple hours time. The first point is that Snarfs (flipped scum) was also found defending Palmar. Why? Because it's an easy way to look good, and they were gonna get rid of him next cycle anyways. Pretend to contribute, pretend to look good especially when Palmar flips town. I think there are both town and scum motivations for defending Palmar, and therefore saying someone is town because they defended Palmar isn't that good (case in point Snarfs). I agree that as scum don't want to switch. But they also don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. Notice how phagga unvoted yamato when everyone else did, but how he didn't put any effort himself into figuring out if yamato was scum or not? You say "It doesnt look speculative like scum would just try to poke and prod, or sit on the scum read." concerning him going after yamato. Do you think he is giving valid reasons when he unvotes yamato or instead he is just going with the flow (since everyone else unvoted yamato and he doesn't want to stick out). As for the final post, just because scum don't take opportunities doesn't mean that they are scum. Not only that, it concerns an even day lynch, in which scum aren't nearly as scared since they aren't threatened. They can do whatever they want and pretend to look good, since it doesn't really matter which townie dies at the end. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:13 Oatsmaster wrote: Sloosh, those cases are like so old. And you comment on my town tell. Also I dont think the voteswitch is particularly scummy in its own right, I could imagine myself thinking like what if Im wrong, and snarfs is scum, low activity and all that jazz. What do you think about his explaination for it? Jay, why the fuck is Djo/debears and VE scum. Well just because the case is old doesn't make it invalid does it? Given that proper discussion of them weren't done due to other things coming up, I would think they are rehashing. Please comment on the cases and their contents if you could. The voteswitch is disturbing because it is clear from his filter that the decision should be really easy for him. If you open his filter and ctrl+f Snarfs, he mentions his name sure, but he rarely actually talks about what Snarfs' alignment may be. All I found was that Snarfs was a null tell. Contrast to his interaction and ultimate case. So phagga does an unnatural voteswitch off yamato. Why is it so hard for him to decide where to put his vote? There's no reason why he can't just park it on VE, who he built a giant case on and called scum, over Snarfs, who is just a mere null tell lurker. It's not like the vote is final. But he really hesitates. It's unnatural that a townie in his position would do that. You might say that it was because "what if Im wrong, and snarfs is scum, low activity and all that jazz" but his attitude and tone in his voteswitch indicates otherwise. On February 13 2013 07:55 phagga wrote: You know what, fuck it. ##unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Snarfs let's lynch the scummy lurker. If it still isn't clear, could you look into his filter and tally up questions vs. conclusions he makes concerning scum reads. How many scum reads does he have? Do you see someone who is honestly trying to figure out situations and reads, or someone who is just going along with the flow, asking questions to pretend to contribute, but never inputting his own original thoughts? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Things might get busy so in case I can't later: ##Vote yamato. CC let me know how you feel about the situation. I'm considering voting myself today if it means helping Oats come aboard and assuming you guys can agree that jay isn't the lynch for tomorrow. Seriously, please don't lynch jay tomorrow. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 17:30 Oatsmaster wrote: I am concerned that you have confirmation bias sloosh. OK Real quick 2 scum reads 2-3 line reasoning. OGOOGOGOGO VE - actively misconstrued my case on phagga, doesn't scumhunt but instead worries more about lynching between townies, lies when he says he was on Snarfs and is trying to milk town cred from it. Also keeps pushing doubt on me saying "oh I see red flags in slOosh" while never actually making a real case. phagga - Doesn't scumhunt. End of story. Has backed out of every single scum read he has made. Keeps asking questions but never draws conclusions. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Whichever one of you is town (I think it's Oats but it could be debears), aren't you worried? If you think the nominees are town, then you got 3/5 scum that aren't nominated. You seriously, seriously should think about what is being said and what is being pushed right now. Also note that VE is straight up slinging mud on yamato, even though he has on multiple occasions said that he is a strong town read. Also notice how his reads magically change over time despite no discussion or involvement with the thread On February 12 2013 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I read over Yamato's filter and it's gleaming green. I can't understand what you find scummy about it at all. He's consistently pushing his reads, and he explains his thought process clearly when those reads change. In the last game I played with Yamato he replaced into a prime scum position - a fake miller claim from a respectable town player...and he fucked right off. He did a little pseudo push on me, but he didn't do shit with that claim. If he's scum this game he's done something like the most spectacular turnaround in scum play I've ever seen. On February 17 2013 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote: prplhz Jaybrundage ? phagga ? Djodref/debears ? Oatsmaster yamato slOosh Cheese On February 19 2013 08:08 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll write up something more in-depth during the next cycle, but I'm approximately standing at jaybrundage, phagga, X Where X = one of yamato/slOosh I don't want to lynch either of yamato/slOosh though because I had a town read on them until now and I feel like whichever one is scum is going to help me lynch his buddies (thanks slOosh if it's you - you're a bro.  )On February 19 2013 08:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually Oats is on my todo Yam...and you/slOosh are by far my weakest read. Right now VE is just sweeping this aside because by killing yamato he doesn't have to properly address it. As it is I think this is the strongest way to go about lynching VE. ##Unvote: yamato ##Vote: slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
CC, I really think it is VE / phagga, with debears as the last, given my town read on Oats. So I really want you to push VE or phagga. Work together with yamato. He is town. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 21 2013 10:32 slOosh wrote: Whichever one of you is town (I think it's Oats but it could be debears), aren't you worried? If you think the nominees are town, then you got 3/5 scum that aren't nominated. You seriously, seriously should think about what is being said and what is being pushed right now. Leaving this for posterity. Seriously guys. Seriously. They all holding hands to push a common goal (mislynch). Despite calling each other scum. Seriously. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
And they all want to lynch the 4th player. HMMMMMMMMMMM.......... All sarcasm aside, no townie in their right mind wouldn't give pause in his situation. Lynch VE. Wagon of justice (TM by CC) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Please lynch VE tomorrow. <3 slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Please know with my flip that all my reads are genuine and town motivated. VE phagga debears scum. <3 slOosh | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Awesome carry work. Props to being open minded when I couldn't. You are the hero of this game. ![[image loading]](http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/applause.gif) | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 24 2013 01:40 GMarshal wrote: I'm interested in seeing what people thought of the setup, how they would improve on it, and general thoughts about how both mafia and town played. Also, how do you guys feel about ObviousOne shadowing? Is it something we want to see more players doing in games (because I suspect it raises the game level even if its work for both player and shadow during the game.) Like it has been said, time is a big factor in this game. A 72 hour period in which you cannot threaten scum with the lynch is incredibly difficult and demotivating, but scum players also have difficulty keeping up the illusion of contribution. I think shortening the cycles somewhat can help improve the overall playability of the game. The smaller player pool version will almost certainly need some shortening as you have even less people to talk about for a greater length of time (I feel like scum would suffer more in this setup). I think mafia played well with what they could. The Snarfs bus was from lack of communication but they did their best with it and had ultimately yamato died instead of me the last cycle, I think scum would easily have won it. The game does seem more town favored though as scum cannot resort to passive play due to the nominations being a pseudo town confirm device, where as town can play regular. Maybe in higher levels of play it would be more balanced, but it definitely seems inherently town favored for that reason (scum require more than town to push their agenda due to setup). For town play it is harder to gauge as I was out for a huge chunk of the first cycle, so thinks were done with reread, and I guess the gut feel isn't quite there as it is when things are in the process of unfolding. I wouldn't say there was really exceptional town play until the final stretch of the game. I pegged phagga and was consequently biased in everything, Palmar was sick so can't blame him, prplhz lost motivation which is understandable and everyone else I'm not too familiar with their play so I can't say. The Snarfs bus however was really a key play this game, as it made so many entangling lines and I know I couldn't think straight when Snarfs flipped scum - although that was a very pivotal moment as well. Had VE died, CC would fall and it would be back to basics scumhunting. It also shows that bussing for town cred cannot be an ends to itself, but only a means for further scum manipulation, otherwise the gain doesn't justify the costs. Shadowing is a cool concept if I understand it correctly, and I wish I could have had some mentor-esque relationship as I was learning. It can help newer players develop in insight and understanding which in turn naturally raises the overall level of gameplay on TL Mafia. However I'm not sure how the shadow affects the shadowed - I'm wondering if the types of questions could get the player to think different perspective. Basically having someone outside the game help you play (even though they might be perceived lower skill level). All in all, a pretty fun game, albeit very slow and prolonged. Also, I could easily see the addition of blue roles on the current setup to create new offshoot setups, currently I'm thinking of roles that revolve around how the nominations are made / interfered with. Could be closed setup, could be semi-open. I dunno. And a final thank you to the hosts GMarshal and BioSC for hosting this game! | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Because as scum, having a shadow point out what they see seems to offer insights to how the town perceives a situation. You are getting an objective viewpoint of a situation. Yea, you can say that you have already considered all viewpoints and that the shadow won't bring up anything new, which is why I'm wondering if it is a skill level thing, but for someone like me who has a poor scum game, this would be valuable information. Proper evaluation of how the self is perceived helps play - either scum or town; as scum because you can pre emptively address problem / issues, town because you can better gauge people's reactions / interactions with you. On the flip side, town get's insights by having another viewpoint. So I guess my final thoughts would be that shadows help the player in either alignment. I think that this is a good thing, and that is a separate point can be discussed, but I think that having a shadow is helpful to the player. I don't think it's an unfair advantage per se, unless a whole side gets shadows and another doesn't, but that's like rolling a setup that favors one side (a la Fruity where town player base was pretty strong I think?). ... I was going to talk about how to limit the influence a shadow has on a player rather than vice versa, but I think that would be losing out on something potentially really good for fear of something that is a relatively minor point. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I don't think I actually ever read the case (I actually agreed with Snarf's D1 case much more but I forget why I dropped that). It was more of what other players were doing (CC, phagga, prplhz) than anything VE did in particular. It's not really that hard to sway me, but when I spearhead a lynch and the people who follow me can't support me when I'm hesitant, I lose even more confidence, which was probably why sheeping CC was so alluring, since he seemed confident. | ||
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