EPTNomination Mafia - Page 4
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
phagga is still my top read - observe his vote switch behavior last night: Currently the votes are split between Snarfs and VE. At this point I'm still strongly voting VE and the only potential hint of my change is this post where I say I'm rereading. So, it looks like slOosh is probably gonna stick with VE. Votes are at 4-4 with prplhz voting CC. phagga comes in and waffles so I question his hesitation: On February 13 2013 07:39 phagga wrote: Dude, I might do the deciding vote here, I just want to be sure it's the right pick. That said, snarfs is a lurker, for whatever reason. VE had stuff in his play that just did not make any sense from a town perspective. Let's lynch VE. Ok. The highlighted line shows that he wants to be sure about this choice. Put some consideration into it y'know? ##Vote: VisceraEyes On February 13 2013 07:55 phagga wrote: You know what, fuck it. ##unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Snarfs let's lynch the scummy lurker. Well, so much for careful consideration. He calls Snarfs a lurker in the first quote. Somehow in a span of ~15 minutes Snarf's lurking has become scummy and more deserving of a lynch against someone who "had stuff in his play that just did not make any sense from a town perspective." Not only that, it isn't because he reviewed his notes as he explains later - the 2nd quote is straight up YOLO. There's a mismatch in attitude consistency. A "go with the flow" mentality. And then there is my case from D2 and his subsequent defense. Should still lynch prplhz first. Then when prplhz flips scum I'll come, point at prplhz's filter and say "aha!" then we can lynch phagga. Can't do that with Snarfs' filter cause he barely mentions him - Coinky dink? Maybe. But add enough of them and the more straightforward answer is that he is scum. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Did you really think the votes were split between 2 scum? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Everyone should be answering clearly what they think of each nomination candidate as to restrict all potential scum plays for the next cycle. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Town have very good reason to care about how they look. Ver's guide has #1 priority as establishing your innocence. In my last game (dessert mini), I let stuff slide because I figured that town was smart enough to read between the lines. I was wrong, and it aided in my lynch (as a SK but I was playing as a townie). I'm being very clear with my intentions and not letting people (either maliciously or innocently) misconstrue them. That is true for any alignment. I was sure I'll be put up since I was AFK for the majority of the day, and I perceive myself a decent player. If you (or anyone else) want to consider the "town cred" argument, look at a quote from Ver's guide: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote: III. Mafia Survival v. Pushing Your Agenda Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status. In other words, “town credit” decays over the course of the game. Against a competent town, don’t expect that you can set yourself up for a free win by acting too pro-town early in the game. Many newer players will often erroneously overvalue town credit. In reality, town credit is very fickle and lynches are seldom based solely on someone's town credit. As for my case, clearly you guys are having an issue with meta. Look - I'll take out the meta part. What do you think of it? + Show Spoiler + On February 09 2013 17:19 slOosh wrote: It's like you guys don't even read. The worst outcome of today is time wasted by focusing on the nomination candidates. Let me and Palmar take front wheel and scumhunt into the non-nomination pool, of which we would all agree are at least 3 scum. If we are both town, then our interaction should produce a strong scum lynch list. If one of us isn't, then our interaction should reveal whom to lynch today. Again: D1 information is critical. We can't let scum skate by today pretending to scumhunt by choosing the least towniest of three people, because it is oh so easy for scum to fabricate town reads (no cognitive dissonance and awkwardness of interacting with a teammate naturally). If I sound like I'm repeating myself, it's because some players aren't getting it, and it's letting scum hide. The low hanging fruit in this game is phagga. If you familiarize yourself with his meta (nicely displayed in his profile and devoid of any scum games), it becomes clearer that he is new scum whose play pales to his town play. I've pointed out in my earliest post what I found about phagga to be interesting. I pointed it out when I distracted myself by latching onto the yamato thing here, but the tells are pretty valid. He has a focus on lurkers, "contributing" statistics and reasoning. His "coaching" is very awkward, as seen: Awkward checklist: - Talking to Mocsta rather than VE concerning Mocsta's play, over something he disagrees with VE about. - Stating that Mocsta is writing calmly, but then dismissing everything else by saying it is alignment null, i.e. devoid of content - Pointing out to the subject himself the problems with his play rather than convincing / discussing with other people. Compare this to a D1 post (about three quarters into cycle) from Wheel of Fortune Mafia: On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his "really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction. Very straightforward, gives clear thoughts and explanations, talks to town in general rather than the subjects. Another contrast is his fear of taking a hard stance, a common tell among newer scum players. Notice how many scum tells phagga is able to point out, and compare that with his final conclusion: The counterbalance to five points is yamato's town read explanation "which seems townish". There's a clear disconnect here people. phagga's newb scum play is showing: he is afraid of committing to a stance despite being able to list much evidence. And there are the empty promises he often makes, because he can't make actual reads: Doesn't do so. Doesn't comment on the case at all, and his "grilling of VE" concludes somehow, with this: More excuses not to post reads, because he doesn't have any. For someone who "took my advice" on rereading the thread (seriously why credit me with that), he clearly didn't read anything else I had to say since he is doing the exact opposite. So, yea that's that. We can start there. Palmar I want you to comment your thoughts on VE. Also, a fleshed out read on one of Cheesecake, snarfs or prplhz. As with VE, I thought he was scum and wanted some input from Palmar. You know I'm not just bluffing and getting Palmar to do it for me, because I provide my reasoning (compiled in this post): + Show Spoiler + On February 12 2013 02:27 slOosh wrote: ... You seriously ask me to bump when I have a 2 page filter? Really? You can't do this yourself? As for the last posts, think of it from my perspective. I missed some posts, got some confirmation bias and tunneled VE hard - the wagon that ran against Snarfs. It was a humbling epiphany. If you think it's overdone, then that's just my character. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I think all nominees are town. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 15 2013 04:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah that looks way too prepared. Im not saying that you shouldnt look like a townie. Its just that no one SAYS that they want to appear as town. It just happens if you play a certain way. Telling people that you am town, even subtly, is not the way that you look like town. Look, we are arguing how to play mafia as the basis of you determining my alignment. If you disagree of how a town player should play and that I am not meeting those criteria, there is de facto no defense. I can argue that your standards need tweaking, but that is an argument on how to play, which we can argue to the end of time with no meaningful results, since it is a topic that we can argue about post game as non-players. I think we should lynch prplhz and phagga. The best criteria for figuring out who is scum or not is figuring out who is scumhunting and who is not (or just pretending). prplhz has not produced any meaningful content since the first cycle. He is very detached from the game and it is difficult to see any investment in his filter in trying to figure stuff out, or pushing for viable lynches. His cheesecake case came in at a time when the discussion is clearly centered VE vs Snarfs - it is totally detached from the game. Mr CC said that he found this a ballzy to make a case on someone who can't get lynched, but I'd repeat the same sentence with a different emphasis. Scum have plenty to gain by making a case on someone who can't get lynched, because they look like they are scumhunting but the backlash of a townie flip isn't there. You have posts like this where he likes Snarf's case but doesn't have any opinions on Snarfs himself (usually when you like a case someone else makes, you would have some degree of town tell on them wouldn't you?) On February 08 2013 03:16 prplhz wrote: I actually like Snarfs case on VisceraEyes. On February 08 2013 08:28 prplhz wrote: You can't mention Snarfs case as reasonable for possibily lynching VisceraEyes when you have said (repeatedly) that it isn't a good case. I can do that, however, since I've always liked Snarfs case. I don't like the looks of VisceraEyes. I'll lynch him over JieXian. On February 08 2013 10:01 prplhz wrote: I gave reasons. Snarfs case and your analysis. I don't know if he is a better lynch, but jaybrundage isn't getting lynched at all. I just don't like the JieXian lynch. On February 10 2013 09:50 prplhz wrote: I'm still leaning scum on VisceraEyes and I don't really know about Snarfs either. I haven't bothered making a case because I would think it is painfully obvious by now, and it's disturbing why we haven't a spoken consensus to lynch him tomorrow. phagga also isn't scumhunting, but it isn't as blindingly obvious as the lurker prplhz. Look at his lines of questioning - they are painfully weak and it's not so much him trying to gather information to make conclusions, but just asking around. The two biggests reads he has had in the game, yamato and VE were dropped when town sentiments were different. He is go-with-the-flow blendy scum. Mocsta, there are a couple of things I dislike in yamato's recent posts, but not to the degree where I would prioritize him over prplhz / phagga. Mr. Cheesecake I'll be reviewing jay now - I guess he isn't as apparent to me but that's probably because I haven't given him a good go yet. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Concerning jay, I think he is town. For instance, he actually fought against my VE lynch also to push the yamato lynch. On February 12 2013 03:29 jaybrundage wrote: SlOosh I agree with your VE case as I noted last cycle. But I believe that Yamato should be the lynch of choice today. He deflected two cases on him with out giving anything of a response. He did the same thing in Normal Mini Mafia VI when i posted an accusation of him. He legit completely ignored it. SlOosh you haven't given your thoughts on the Yamato case. What do you think about. On February 12 2013 05:55 jaybrundage wrote: SlOosh Why would you say that Yamato isn't happening. Its even with VE and Snarfs is leading by one. It's a bit to soon to say which lynch is gonna happen and which one isn't Yamato also has plenty of content to read over. The way he has hard defended some scummy people (prplhz, VE) Will also help to give a better read of these people. I would even say that Yamato would give way more information then VE. Also I think he's scum. Do you disagree with my case at all? Do you think Palmar was mistaken? Also saying that we are lynching between scum is a big assumption. It makes people care less about the lynch and lets scum get away weak bandwagoning. The biggest part that annoys me is your declaration of Yamato lynch not happening. Why do you say that. If anything Yamato seems like it has quite a bit of resistance. Also given The votes that are being thrown on Snarf I do not want to lynch him today. The people voting him are the same people Palmar noted as being likely scum. I also find prplhz's vote on CC to be rather bad hes dividing the vote for no reason. I don't see him His follow up on yamato is pretty consistent. On February 12 2013 12:18 jaybrundage wrote: @Yamato I don't wanna lynch Snarfs. Who's the next person on your list. On February 12 2013 13:09 jaybrundage wrote: @Oats This is the shit im talking about. You dont have any content in your posts. You make a snide comment, Insert a question/ask for clarification. While not fucking adding any thoughts of your own. You also ask the most easily answered questions. You could legit just think about it for a moment and come up with an answer your self but instead you just ask it anyway to appear to be doing something. Look at my scum team post. See if any of the plays are voting/casting suspicion on each other. Done that's it. Thats bussing. Example: VE calling prplhz scum. Its not hard to read these things for your self. Your complete lack of your own thoughts this game makes you more and more likely scum. @Yamato Yea God forbid I actually follow the best scumhunter on TL shame on me. Im sooo bad QQQQQQQQ Stop trying to discredit my read on you with out actually addressing it. You never responded to Palmar's case either btw. Yet again you make me following Palmar's read so bad. Yet why is this bad Yamato. Do you think Palmar is scum trying to push a mislynch on you. OH WAIT LOL HE'S CONFIRMED TOWN. I forgot about that. Welp why don't you just straight up call Palmar a baddie then and end it there. What happened to your OMGUS im pretty disappointed you dropped it after you figured that lynch with my name on it wouldn't go anywhere. You never responded to my post. I don't wanna lynch Snarfs. Who's next on your list. On February 12 2013 13:23 jaybrundage wrote: 1 Hey last game I was scum I used attacks on Bugs to rile him up and make him not think clearly. Nicely done. 2 Stop using emotional bullshit to try to pull out a response from people. Also you refuse to find a second candidate. WTF is this? If your town then start looking. Snarfs is not gonna be killed today. I have said this like three times and you refuse to answer. WHAT'S YOUR SECOND SCUM READ With respects to Palmar, I think he just really respects Palmar and respects his reads (Student Mafia if anyone remembers was a game where Palmar smurfed and caught jay and his 3 man scum team day 1.) Not too much of a stretch to think this could be townie holding Palmar reads in high regard. Posts like this I really like - I don't think we should lynch him before prplhz and phagga. On February 14 2013 15:34 jaybrundage wrote: Also I would also try to focus the lynch on tmw. If there are actually three townies on the board then we waste time talking about who we want to lynch. Scum can get away with talking about whos the scummiest of the three townies. What we should do is simply pressure our actually scum reads and not whos on the block. Yamato, VE what are your thoughts on Phagga and Prplhz? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
It's not the presence of your CC case that I have issue with but the lack of any meaningful insight into the current issue at hand that everyone was trying to figure out. I also never said that you didn't believe that CC could be lynched, I said that just because someone makes a case on someone who isn't likely to be lynched isn't that useful of a heuristic. In any case you clearly seem to have opinions / reads but don't seem to want to share /expound any of them. I'm willing to listen prplhz - who should we lynch tomorrow? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
I think all the nominees are town. I really do. I'll be defending whoever is alive out of us for tomorrow unless there is a reasonable body of evidence. And no, "that would be a sick scum play" is not a good reason, because possibility =/= reality. If it is what people are speculating it is, there should be evidence for it beyond "these things fit in nicely", because "they are actually town, you are being paranoid and scum is elsewhere" fits just as well, if not better. So less speculating, more research, more evidence, more cases. That said, as much as it sucks, I'm going to vote off Mocsta again. It sucks because he is putting in lots of effort etc. I'm voting him because if he is alive tomorrow, I find him to be a highly potential mislynch candidate (much more so than Mr. Cheesecake), so it's better to "use him up" during these even cycles when a townie has to die. ##Vote: Mocsta prplhz, could I have a bit more detailed explanation on your townish read on phagga? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Mocsta, I think all three nominees are town. The best we can make out of a 3 townie situation is remove as many mislynch possibilities as possible. From my perspective, seems real easy that scum could use CC flipping town to push your mislynch, or just keep you to push this paranoia case. If you think phagga is responsible for hammering Snarfs then I think you should reread the relevant pages. This is stupid guys. Lynch prplhz. All this talk day 1 about lynching lurkers and here is one on a silver platter, and you guys think "oh that is too easy let's go lynch someone more difficult to find". Seriously. It's not like he is even promising any content this is so stupid. If I end up dying, my scumreads are clear. Prplhz and phagga. Maybe yamato /debears after that. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Like I've been saying forever, I think prplhz and phagga are scum. Let's do some consolidating. p.s. VE you have my full attention to whatever you want my thoughts on. My activity drops on weekends but with time I have we can work on really getting fleshed out reads between us and CC for the future lynches, cause at least 2 can stick around till endgame (due to nomination system). ##Vote: prplhz | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Keep it simple - the most straightforward explanation is usually the correct one. It's more likely that CC / VE are town who caught scum Snarfs, and not some elaborate day 1 bus strategy, and that prplhz is just lurker scum skating by and not a super busy town player who lost all will to play and isn't even making proper reads. No one has made an honest effort case on CC or VE post Snarfs flip - if your fear that they are scum are well founded and not just natural paranoia that comes in a game of mafia, then there should be evidence to support that. No one has provided such evidence so either they are amazing scum players who don't slip (especially when acting with regards to each other and 1 more scum member) OR, they are town, plain and simple. Like ... the only useful discussion is ultimately, who should we lynch? I think it should be prplhz or phagga, and I've outlined why. If you build a serious case on VE / CC that people start wagoning, I'll build a serious defense, but there's no point in preemptively doing that for me - in fact it's probably detrimental as it detracts from scumhunting. If you want a couple of reasons on why I think they are town I can give that too, but it isn't useful for lynching mafia a la prplhz or phagga. @jay - it is kinda weird that out of prplhz phagga and debears you choose debears. Why you do that? | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
@VE. If lazy play is a better alternative to his active play, then that is a legitimate way to play scum. Like, if I could pass off lazy scum play I would, because I find it really difficult to play active scum in imitation of my town play. I've definitely considered the possibility of lazy town prplhz, but I'm finding it more akin to scum sandroba or Foolishness - people's whose town play greatly overpower their scum play, so they just lurk about. Besides, he has done a good job cutting ties everywhere he goes in his filter. Consider this following post - he ain't got nothing, and even with threat of lynch he ain't got nothing, so we know that if kept alive he will produce nothing this game. Keep it simple - he is super duper lazy / disinterested / disheartened town, or he is scum pretending to be the former. I think he is scum. On February 15 2013 11:18 prplhz wrote: I don't really want to lynch Oatsmaster, Mocsta, Djodref, you, probably not yamato or jaybrundage or phagga. Guess that leaves me with VisceraEyes and Mr. Cheesecake but for some reason that doesn't seem all too right for a scum team. I mean there's one guy missing then. I'll be spending time on jay to give a more holistic appraisal now. I made a brief comment about him here detailing why I thought he was town / someone who I didn't consider for today's lynch. I also think because of his relation with (I think scum) prplhz from D1 that it is the case, and I am guessing you are thinking potentially the reverse because of it (jay is scum ergo, prplhz is more likely to be town). In any case I'll be going through the cases against him this upcoming cycle (won't have time to do so before deadline), and hopefully by then we can make an endgame lynch list. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
So I have a strong town read on CC and VE. With me we have 3 people, 2 of which I would like to indiscriminately keep till the endgame (I don't care if it means I get lynched if all 3 of us go up, doesn't change the plan). We hit scum tomorrow, and we lynch whoever isn't in the trio (or the more likely case we lynch me since the trio is nominated) and then scum the next day. In the meantime, scum will continue to put townies up, because they know putting themselves up will be suicide, according to this plan. Thereby, we eliminate 2 null reads during the even cycles (well it will be the most towniest outside of the trio but whatever). To be honest I still haven't had a chance to look at jay, but it seems like I'm in the wrong, especially since prplhz flipping town means there's one more scum in the playerlist and that the early interaction with jay is more how VE perceived it, not I. I still want to give it an honest go, but it will probably come tomorrow. Not liking his latest post for the unheeded slight at VE and narrowing of CC / yamato without contribution, nor how he voted debears instead of prplhz given that Palmar thought prplhz was scum - but there is a good chance I'm just trusting the objective reads from VE and CC, so gotta wait for the final verdict. Phagga I've had scum read forever, and I think by this point I've lost the ability to objectively read him without calling him scum at every turn, so I can't really discuss him that well. I just don't think he is scumhunting at all - just popping him to defend himself and ask inane questions, and making up scum reads off the cases of others without any initial contribution. Also I think yamato is town because it would be suicidal to put up someone against my and CC who have very strong town reads on each other (plus behavioral analysis etc.). I also think that scum will never put one of their own up, given my plan will insta lynch whoever isn't in the trio, and that scum won't gambit the one surefire means of eliminating townies for the fickle chance of "town cred". So if I did my planning right, yamato will die today, we lynch phagga / jay, next cycle I can die on behalf of trio, then we lynch the remainder of phagga / jay, then we lynch the remainder of the player pool (it will be VE, CC 1 town 1 scum at this point), lynch the 3rd player nominated and the remainder afterward, and win the longest game ever played of all time. Plan works if you believe VE and CC town, phagga jay is scum. It circumvents need to decipher through debears / Oats & yamato. Given that the only things mounted against VE / CC are paranoid scum bus theories (I think a phagga flip would show how it wasn't a coordinated scum bus, unless you want to argue that was intentional at which point you are scum for trying to stretch the truth that far), and good consensus that phagga and jay are scum, I think this is the way to go. Cool. So discussion on if you think phagga / jay is town and if so, who is scummier than they, or an actual case on why VE / CC is scum, or feedback on my plan. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
The answer is, probably not (even if I check his filter it's kinda hard). @Oats - Snarfs also defended a Palmar lynch D1, - As scum you also fear going against the flow. Aka, his backing off of VE and yamato cases when they weren't getting support. - The posts you quote are almost a week old. What new content has he produced? Does it look like he has any scum reads, or does it look like he is making them as he goes along? In the process of a full reread (yes another one). Will post up huge thoughts hopefully within a couple hours time. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
- VE calls out scum Snarfs but doesn't push the lynch over Palmar's - Oats joins along Snarfs lynch - jay notices phagga missing. wants more info on Snarfs - VE's initial list is palmar, prplhz, snarfs, JX. pushes prplhz for lurking - Phagga said he would talk on Snarfs. Didn't. - Oats switched back onto Snarfs And that's up to page 30. What I've gotten so far is that if anyone is to get "town cred" for pushing Snarfs, it would be Oats, not VE (aside from CC of course, look at his entry post calling out phagga Snarfs Djo he is baws). I recall from D2 him completely dismissing my phagga case by misconstruing it as meta, and his most recent posts where he once again shirks any responsibility for scumhunting, and seems more concerned in lynching "the least contributory townie" instead of finding and lynching scum. Right now by process of elimination coupled with some posts of his (like his "I think prplhz might be town" post out of nowhere) lead me to think he is indeed mafia. I'll be reading more and updating as I go along. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On February 20 2013 06:50 jaybrundage wrote: New improved scum team (with help from CC) VE, Phagga, Debears, Snarfs We lynch systematically into them. And win the game. I fully endorse this position and will be willing to vote into any one of these 3 players. So town team of me, CC, yamato, Oats & jay - so at this point it's just convincing you guys that we are town and have to consolidate on them. If me flipping town today helps Oats see better, than I'm fine with that. Oats: I'm going to do this two ways. One is why I'm probably town, and one is why VE is probably scum. D1: I am voted with Mocsta and Palmar. Mocsta is pretty much established town. Palmar has a great reputation as a town player. Why would I put myself up as scum? How could I have known that Palmar would be sick all day? Because if Palmar chose to start contributing, then I would surely be dead. With yamato's case, the issue at hand is that VE is claiming that he is town because of his pushing Snarfs, when in reality, he wasn't really pushing Snarfs, but just pretending to do so. That is what yamato is pointing out. Pushing town over scum isn't the point - pushing town over scum while claiming to be pushing the scum the whole time as justification of his towniness is the issue. If you consequently observe VE's filter, there are 3 things that categorize his play. 1) Setup talk, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 2) Focus on lurkers, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing 3) Hunting the "least useful" townie on even days, which is an easy way for scum to look like they are contributing When does VE try to push a scum lynch? You may think Snarfs, but as yamato shows, he really doesn't. VE has been pushing lurkers and least useful townies and that is all that he is interested in. He isn't truly scumhunting. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
- jay, phagga and CC build yamato case - yamato serious lynch possibility. what are VE / phagga / Snarfs doing? - p 58~61: who cares about the lynch, who doesn't? - phagga acknowledges Snarfs case, keeps on yamato, and then soon after drops it when no one else is on it - phagga unvotes, but not to move it!!! There is unusual delay in his followup vote. I really think jay is town at this point. He has been consistently involved in trying to figure out scum. He was one of the first to support the VE lynch and his posts surrounding the deadline felt really genuine (like the one where he was really upset I moved my vote). The biggest thing is that he came to the same conclusion of a scum team that I did before I clearly said anything. It shows real consistency. I highly don't recommend lynching him. | ||
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