EPTSadly I cannot eat anything that is listed in the op for another few days at least
Dessert Mini Mafia
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wherebugsgo
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Sadly I cannot eat anything that is listed in the op for another few days at least | ||
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I will be doing the readings in a second. | ||
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three of four Hopeless Xatalos Zentor Promethelax | ||
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##vote kushm4sta Beyond what has been said by other people about kush, note one important thing; he's been called scummy a hell of a lot but no one has actually put a vote on him. I don't recall anyone finding anything that really points in his favor either, and as I couldn't find anything on that front myself, I think that makes him a great lynch today. In addition, there are very many reasons to call him scum, and different players have said different things. Indeed, what I noticed was different from all of them, in fact. If you would like to see for yourself, filter kush and go back into his posts. Note the number of times he comments on his own appearance. Note how he asks someone how his entrance into the thread was scummy. Note how he actually bothers to explain himself for even the tiniest accusations; things in previous games I would have expected him to either ignore or indignantly call someone stupid over. Lastly, note how he never follows up on his reads, pushes his reads, or gives the impression that he is trying to strengthen or rationalize his reads. He certainly doesn't seem to care who scum are. | ||
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You haven't voted, you're clearly actively lurking, and you certainly haven't bothered to try to comment on any of the numerous accusations that have been put forth in the thread already. | ||
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Can anyone tell me the last time they caught a scum through calling them out on OMGUS? How is it at all alignment indicative? In fact I would argue that I've seen a lot more townies than scum accuse their accuser. | ||
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Slosh hasn't been around much but he's one of the few players who put effort into pushing a scumread. | ||
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On January 13 2013 15:28 slOosh wrote: I think the post you are thinking of is directed at kush (based on the next post in his filter). Do you think a scum sloosh would bother to point this out/have this conversation? About kush: do you notice what I noticed between these two posts? On January 13 2013 14:01 kushm4sta wrote: second person you defended without cause to. back on my scum list. ATM i woudl lynch. On January 14 2013 03:53 kushm4sta wrote: wbg that sounds like d1 of every town game i play. i sheep a lot and throw my vote around a lot. I need to reread or look at filters before I can have anything useful to say honestly. | ||
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On January 14 2013 05:04 MrZentor wrote: As town he throws his vote around a lot, but this game he hasn't? Is that it? Not very convincing.. Nope. Try again. | ||
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That's annoying. I'll be back in a few hours. | ||
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On January 14 2013 06:59 Promethelax wrote: Well Zentor, I don't disagree that you have been helpful but I remember you saying at the end of British (which I only followed somewhat peripherally) that you didn't want to have to play like a good townie who contributes ever again. I was trying to get some confirmation that this was not true and that you were indeed going to do your best to play a good game instead of trolling. SloOsh's points on you super are exactly why I am reluctant to vote him, he has accurately expressed the thought I have with your play. It is useless bullshit. While his case was weak it had some merit, even though I won't be voting X today. It had some merit means that he clearly was trying to actively push his lynch and, based on the post Bugs pulled up regarding his interaction with Hapa, was clearly involved with the thread while present. Attention Thrawn. Bugs is actually an asshole. I don't think he is scum based on his play yet and I don't plan on voting him today. Bugs, please answer my question. Was your four person list something you, yourself, believe or believed? What has Supersoft done to get off that list? His play thus far has been incredibly anti-town. He posted a huge list full of nothing (seriously has reads based on if people will call themselves town) and is trying to get vets lynched day one. Something he said he would never do as town. Along with that Super has gotten ultra defensive when Sloosh called his posting bullshit and he has continued to fling shit around the thread. I find SS scummiest and plan on voting him today. In fact ##Vote: Supersoft My four person thing was just my first impression upon reading the thread. All four of those names seemed to be playing differently to what I expected (some of them still are) | ||
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As for kush, I don't feel comfortable lynching someone who was just replaced. It's unfortunate if he actually was scum, but I think the replacement should get some time to establish himself as well. | ||
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I need to do more rereading since I really wanted to kill kush today. Tentatively I'd put Hopeless and Xatalos up there, followed by Zentor. | ||
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Basically he did nothing between when he posted that first post until I called him out. He apparently had a scumread on you; he could have tried to explain it, vote you, get more information, do whatever, but he simply afked. He was clearly watching and reading the thread, because as soon as I made that accusation and votepost he delurked and made a defense of himself. Also notable is the fact that he said he was going to reread filters and whatnot but came back 8 minutes with absolutely nothing new; just a revote on you. It didn't even seem like he reread anything at all. | ||
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On January 14 2013 07:36 supersoft wrote: We do it like that: I will leave defending me completely to you wbg. if he fails to defend me and I die, you better lynch him tomorrow. Nah you can defend yourself. I have better things to do than waste my time defending someone who is capable of defending himself. I have no interest in lynching you right now but that doesn't mean I necessarily think you are very townie. No one so far in this game has been worth defending. | ||
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I don't agree with lynching super, so whoever is on him should probably consider moving their votes. On reread Hopeless doesn't seem that bad, just really lazy. I want him to actually do something though, or I may consider pushing him tomorrow, assuming I'm alive. Ruuch: play the game or I'll stop giving you the newbie free card. ##vote Xatalos | ||
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On January 14 2013 11:10 Hopeless1der wrote: @bugs, does SS's response to youbelow, especially regarding Prom, make sense in the context of what you'd asked him at the time? supersoft generally looks at scum in different ways than I do. I can see some of his points but I disagreed with him on xatalos. I agreed with both of his sentiments about you and Prom, but honestly neither of you have done much scummy since, you just both seem to be playing a bit weird. Xatalos, on the other hand, seems way too passive to be town. | ||
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why wait till tomorrow? | ||
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His play has seemed somehow different this game, and he seems to be inconsistent. I am more confident in Xatalos, though. | ||
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I'm tired of people defending others randomly in games for no reason. I'm tired of people afking or not defending themselves and making themselves look scummy. I'm tired of shitty games. If someone is capable of defending themselves then I'm going to let them defend themselves unless I think we are about to do something seriously stupid. At this point I don't think you have a strong chance of being lynched (no one really has any strong chance of being lynched) and so I'm not worrying about having to defend you. And for the record I have no interest in lynching you day 1 because I do not think that if you are scum I will have the time to get a good read on you. I already explained in the previous game how there are some tells (i.e your willingness to lynch vets early) that would strongly indicate that you are scum, but no such thing will happen this game. | ||
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I just mentioned that because supersoft seems to have the idea that I can easily determine his alignment and that's not always true. It's only true if there are certain tells (like that) available. @jay I've already answered at least half a dozen times why I do not want to lynch super. Also, I do not think he has played scummy. No one has really given forth good reasons to call super scum in the first place. Remember, if you want to lynch someone then the burden of proof is on you, not me. If there is no case on someone there's nothing to respond to. Xatalos on the other hand has posts like these: On January 13 2013 11:17 Xatalos wrote: Well, I haven't seen anything really scummy yet. Mostly I'm concerned with your entrance to the thread and thrawn's lack of engagement. And Kushm4sta's attitude, although it's not actually scummy, but it's still anti-town. On January 13 2013 11:30 Xatalos wrote: What are you saying? You agree with hopeless so he's more scummy than grush whom you think is scummy with the same reasons as hopeless? Yeah, supersoft's focus on a single smilie was very overdone. But I think he looked pretty convinced about the matter. Why was it fake? Maybe he just wanted to pressure and get a reaction? On January 13 2013 11:43 Xatalos wrote: Just trying to make sense of your post. I didn't get the point you were making in your chain of logic about hopeless being scum over grush. On January 13 2013 13:53 Xatalos wrote: Let me get this straight. You almost instantly leave the wagon after having voted, not because you see anything wrong in the wagon at all, but because it doesn't gain enough support for your liking. Then you proceed to throw some dirt on several additional players. It just fits a Mafia agenda too well and doesn't make any sense as town. Then again, your entrance to the thread was pretty suicidal from a Mafia perspective. But if I look at the recent pages (or even just this one post), Occam's razor says you're Mafia. Can you explain your behaviour? He comes across as incredibly diplomatic and he seems very unwilling to take a concrete stance on his reads. In most of Xatalos's posts I feel like he's trying to gauge sentiment and momentum before taking a stance so that he can be on the "right side," as opposed to trying to figure out for himself who scum are. Indeed in the last post I just quoted he summarizes what kush has done so far, implies that it is scummy, says that Occam's Razor would suggest that he is scum, but doesn't actually call him scum-he doesn't vote him, instead, he talks to him like a townie and asks for an explanation. Kush gave a pretty shitty explanation (IMO) and there was no followup by Xatalos. It's only after Xatalos was called out for not doing anything that he makes a "case", on jaybrundage of all people. I like to call jaybrundage lynchbait, since he usually is the go-to mislynch of choice early on in most games he plays. | ||
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Secondly, there are 6 hours left in the day and we need to consolidate. I would very much like that we consolidate on Xatalos or Zentor. We have 3 nonvoters, one of whom has done nothing (Ruuch) one of whom should have actually done something already (supersoft) and one of whom very well might be scum (Zentor) | ||
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On January 14 2013 15:00 thrawn2112 wrote: the part in bold is a lie the second quote (which came first) suggests that sloosh is completely unfamiliar with xatalos' play, while the first quote suggests that he'd done extensive meta research before making his big xatalos case. the second quote suggests that slOosh's "second guessing" was due to him trying to decide if xata is scum or weird town, and the first quote suggests that slOosh's "second guessing" was due to meta arguments. ##unvote ##Vote:slOosh fuck, i don't know which scum i should vote for lol you're fucking stupid. | ||
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Add LM to my list, I guess. I still think Xatalos needs to die, and Zentor is still missing. On January 15 2013 03:26 thrawn2112 wrote: wbg, why does your play seem so half-assed compared to your usual standard? "Secondly, there are 6 hours left in the day and we need to consolidate. I would very much like that we consolidate on Xatalos or Zentor. We have 3 nonvoters, one of whom has done nothing (Ruuch) one of whom should have actually done something already (supersoft) and one of whom very well might be scum (Zentor)" this is like the weakest push i've ever seen from you when you have as much confidence in the forum as I do right now, you probably wouldn't give a shit either. | ||
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##vote LazerMonkey | ||
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In fact, it's been hard for the last several games, the easiest being LVIII. | ||
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On January 15 2013 03:44 Xatalos wrote: What do you mean LVIII? I haven't played in such game. I meant players in general, not just you. | ||
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On January 15 2013 04:03 Xatalos wrote: Right... But if I'm so hard to read, why are you so willing to lynch me? Even though you're giving Jay a free pass for the exact same reason? The more I think about, the more I'm starting to lean scum on you. because everyone in this game is like that. Also, at the very least I have several games played with jay, and so far (crosses fingers) I have not been incorrect about him. Also, from what I remember your play as town is not like this. | ||
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On January 15 2013 04:06 Lazermonkey wrote: Do explain, you haven't even mentioned me prior to this... after replacing kush you haven't really done anything to convince me you are town. | ||
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Suppose we lynch him, he flips town. Who would you kill then? Suppose we lynch him and he flips scum. Same question. | ||
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Read these posts: + Show Spoiler + On December 10 2012 14:16 jaybrundage wrote: Glad someone is reading my posts. I felt like i wasnt get any feedback from them. Ok Clarity ill lay out my thinking for you. First off I have had a scum tell on Thrawn for quite a while now. However I was hoping giving him the benefit of the doubt would prompt him to come out and explain him self. Sadly he hasn't done so. I have also had some bad experiances with me as town going off on easy band wagons and ending up killing a townie day one. This has happened multiple times for me. It may not be so with vets. As we have had some good conversation going on. But i have had games, like i stated before that people all decide to vote someone. And it kills the discussion of the town. Also I dont feel like its necessary to have to vote someone each time my scum reads change. I believe that me saying who i am suspicious of and explaining my reads and voting closer to deadline is fine. i dont know why people make a big deal about that. So in conclusion, Yes i think that thrawn is likely scum. No I have not switched my stance on him, But i have been persistently saying i want him to explain his actions And No i don't feel i need to vote now if my reads are out there. On December 10 2012 10:23 jaybrundage wrote: Hey guys just finished work ten hour shift zzzz. Reading up so far. It appears. That thrawn either made a pretty big scum slip. Or maybe he just made a big mistake as town. There wasn't any point to claiming miller. As if anyone read the OP (as they should it) they would know millers arent self aware. So first your lying. I only seeing this make sense as scum. If you didnt know that miller was self aware. Then your thought process is that you self claim miller. A you can waste a DT check. Or make DT's ineffective against you. As town i see no reason to lie about your role. Please give your reasoning. Because as far it doesn't make any sense. Also I thought the point about debears. Posting a video to not enage in conversation was interesting. Not a scum tell or anything. But a video wont help us find scum some good solid conversation will. On December 11 2012 04:43 jaybrundage wrote: I didnt mean you specifically but some people in TL mafia do. I actually am starting to lean more neutral on Thrawn. In my early mind set I just couldnt see someone misclaiming as a joke, or risk getting them selves lynched. Im a little worried about our lurkers. And i would prefer to see more posts out of ZBoston. Specifically ZBoston what do you think about Claritys case on me and some people soft defending me. Also MunkE has had like 3 posts since his /in and every single one of them is mostly about WBG statistic. Do we really have to nitpick over something like that. WBG was mostly trying to bait Palmar out. Lets hear your thoughts on some cases On Vivax its odd. He seems really interested in going after Thrawns claim and saying that Ve defended it as a joke. When its not a joke. Even when thrawn said his self it was just a joke. That he stubbornly. Refused to explain to generate discussion. I think he is concentrating on thrawns little joke to much to the exclusion of everything else. I can see him being scum. ##Vote Vivax (Because some people get SOOOOO antsy if you dont follow your argument with your vote.) And tell me how they are any different from jay's posts this game. | ||
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Why would he care so much about my opinion, to continue asking me for over 3 hours, as scum? Do you really think he would put forth that kind of effort to blend in as scum? | ||
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Also I just noticed you went to school in MI :p cool, I'm a MI native haha. | ||
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well, I'm going to continue asking people that way anyway :p One thing I want to mention right away about Promethelax is that I found his interactions with sloosh very weird. Basically he was voted by sloosh at some point iirc, but he didn't respond in a way I expected a townie to respond to someone who was voting him. He treated sloosh as town immediately, I felt. However sloosh's behavior on the other side of the coin has also been weird, but a little bit less so. At first I thought maybe it's just sloosh trying to solidify his reads but I can't reconcile why he seems to be so diplomatic. | ||
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I think it's very possible that most of our main targets today are town. | ||
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There is almost no resistance to either Lazer or Prom. Having to pick one isn't resistance. | ||
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On January 15 2013 06:16 Promethelax wrote: good luck guys, do try to lynch scum instead of me. I thought you were "gone for good"? | ||
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On January 15 2013 06:21 Hapahauli wrote: Damnit SuperSoft, will you answer me? @ WBG The Lazer counter-wagon is pretty "resistance-y". But again, who would be an alternative lynch target? You've pushed Xatalos a lot this game, but that stopped when you sheeped the lazer wagon. I haven't heard much from you at all since in terms of scumreads. wtf? How is Lazer a counterwagon to Prom when the votes on Lazer CAME FIRST? Jesus, this is why I call all of you people stupid all the time. | ||
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He wasn't considered a lynch candidate today. | ||
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If Promethelax had more votes and then Lazer caught up, THEN Lazer would be the counterwagon. The third and fourth votes that caught Prom up to Lazer only came very recently. | ||
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##unvote ##vote MrZentor | ||
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On January 15 2013 06:53 MrZentor wrote: In other news, why have you been hard defending Prom all game, WBG? if I was defending prom you think I would take my vote of Lazer to ensure he gets lynched? The fuck? | ||
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It's 5-3 now given that my vote is on Zentor | ||
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On January 15 2013 07:13 supersoft wrote: haha, wbg, thats surpsing news right now... please write up a case. it's basically this: he's being far dumber/useless than I would expect from even the town version of Zentor, and he seems to be calling people town for no particular reason quite a lot. He's also clearly not reading, though I guess town Zentor doesn't read either. First of all, he asked someone where his vote should go, which in of itself is bad, but when given the obvious answer (where the guy's vote was) he responded with, "but just because your vote is on him doesn't mean you'd want my vote to be on him too!) which is incredibly stupid even by Zentor standards. Secondly, he found the need to call himself terrible first day despite the fact that there was no attention on him at the time he joined the wagon on Promethelax. Why? Lastly, he has done nothing but call people town. He has had no real scumreads all game-he named a few things about you that he thought were scummy then called you town. He called jay town within the first hour of the game. He said this: On January 14 2013 11:51 MrZentor wrote: Idk, WBG, Hopeless, Xata, and Hapa are all kind of shady. I'll try to narrow it down to one or two suspects tomorrow. and then two posts later he says this: On January 15 2013 06:22 MrZentor wrote: Hi Hapa, who do you think I should vote for? which indicates he basically assumed Hapa is town. Either he knows something or something changed, and I really doubt Zentor read the thread to change his mind given his opinions/actions so far. | ||
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On January 15 2013 07:24 MrZentor wrote: Hey WBG, you talked about nobody being worthy enough to be defended by you, but you've been defending Prom pretty hard all game. Can you explain? given that you haven't read the thread, this is a pretty empty accusation. Find an instance where I called Prom town. I can guarantee you that you will not find it even without going back into my filter. The only two players that I have really defended this game (if you can even call it that) are jay and super. | ||
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You guys can lynch who you want. Also lol @ hopeless. sadly I can't tell whether you're scum trying to appear reasonable or whether you're simply town. Sigh. | ||
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This whole thing bothers me | ||
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On January 15 2013 08:42 Lazermonkey wrote: ##Vote: WBG It's never too late... ![[image loading]](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luoz314rbM1r6aoq4o1_250.gif) | ||
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So, let's treat him like anyone else LOL ##unvote ##vote Ruuch | ||
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On January 15 2013 09:00 supersoft wrote: No last minute voteswitch to a random newb who gives me no information!!! since when do we lynch for info? Kill this guy, he should have been replaced/modkilled. It seems as if his scumteam told him to vote to avoid modkill. You think it's complete coincidence that he showed up 3 minutes before lynch to vote someone random? | ||
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Oh right, cause you nubflakes don't know how to play the game. | ||
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On January 15 2013 09:53 MrZentor wrote: This also applies to you, WBG, especially considering you voted for me. no one in this game is very good, which means that we're forced to do the hardest thing in mafia, sift through the players and determine whether or not their stupidity is alignment indicative. Barring maybe 2-3 players in this game, one of whom we just lynched, stupidity is not alignment indicative, which means that when they roll scum it's gonna be hard as fuck to tell. | ||
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Activity differences aren't everything. Also, I'm tired of you playing like shit every game regardless of your alignment. Sometimes you even play like shit on purpose. | ||
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the two who escaped lynch yesterday through that prom debacle were Lazer and Xatalos. I am more suspicious of Xatalos, considering that he wasn't around as much during lynch time. He just kinda slinked away, while Lazer at the very least was around and doing stuff. His only contributions really were asking slOosh why his opinion changed on him-very self-centric. Hapa, thrawn, and slOosh I basically have auto-town reads on. I hope they don't turn into the sciberbias of this game. (I had an auto-town read on Prom too) Xatalos (1): jaybrundage Promethelax (7): slOosh, thrawn2112, grush57, MrZentor, Xatalos, Ruuch, Supersoft Lazermonkey (1): Promethelax Ruuch (4): Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo, Hapahauli, Hopeless1der The bolded votes are shady. Ruuch avoided a modkill/replacement by voting right before the deadline. I think that's too close to consider that coincidence. We will have to kill him at some point and there's almost no way scum will shoot him, ever. I suppose we can push him off till later, but I know the game will come down to it at some point. Jay, don't waste your vote tomorrow if you are town. If I die tonight and jay gets away without contributing much, please someone tunnel the fuck out of him. Secondly, the late votes on Prom: Ruuch's is the worst. Xatalos's is also pretty bad, considering that I never actually felt that he cared about the lynch. His argument was that he preferred Prom over Lazer. Whatever. Zentor and Grush are basically either trolls or scum, and grush's contributions this game err on the side of scum for me. In addition to all of these players we have Hopeless, who seems to be feigning reasonability to live. He doesn't seem to be very interested in finding scum, either. So, we have at least 4-5 players who I would confidently label "antitown" and not all of them can be scum. Wonderful. | ||
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On January 15 2013 11:24 jaybrundage wrote: @WBG I wasnt here for the a good couple hours in the night as i had to go to work. Guess you missed that post Xatalos was my scum read at that moment so i voted him you're right, I did miss that, that's my bad. | ||
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On January 15 2013 12:10 slOosh wrote: What do you think of supersoft's playstyle? He set up two hypothetical scum teams and is now using a town flip in one to push the other. It is something scum can pull off and requires at least two mislynches before getting called out on. I can understand some of his perspectives, not that I agree with all of them. He's been okay so far. | ||
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I looked through jubjub and if I remember correctly he did it a bit in that game as scum, but I'm not entirely sure whether he would post this much content as scum (he didn't there) Anyway, if I'm not back before deadline, and I die, for tomorrow: 1. Either force Ruuch to play the game, or kill him. 2. Keep an eye on Xatalos, grush, Hopeless, at least one of them is likely scum IMO. 3. It's fairly likely that there's a scum between the more active/towny looking players, there almost always is. Between super and slOosh, if they at any point stop making sense or lead bad lynches, or have reads that are terrible, kill them. I can't necessarily say the same about the other players since they are more likely to do stupid shit as town. If you end up having an "auto-town" read on one of these players and the game goes to lylo, and they have not been under suspicion all game, consider killing them at that point. This is what I meant about the sciberbia thing, in Yet Another Mini I had an auto-town read and occasional niggling suspicion about sciberbia but it never was fleshed out into any sort of read and I perpetually procrastinated on fully reading his posts because I didn't view them as that important. I basically didn't pay attention to him. Don't make that same mistake. 4. If there are two kills at any point in the game, strongly consider the possibility of SK. | ||
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It's that simple. | ||
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On January 16 2013 07:59 thrawn2112 wrote: it's not a scumslip. what happened is that LM thought that he had been caught in a scumslip, and then lied to try and make the 'scumslip' not seem like a scumslip. his attitude towards super doesn't make sense either [image blocked] | ||
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"derp derp derp my name is thrawnbunchofnumbers and I think lazermonkey is scum for a singular reason that is not actually a scumslip but I'll call it one and then later say I don't think it's one and then say lazer thought it was a scumslip derp because X because derp so therefore he is scum derp and then completely ignore context and everything else in the thread that could explain things because derp it's a scumslip oh wait it's not a scumslip he just thought it was a scumslip oh wait something about jay yes that's right he's scum jay is scum because super yes indeed derp" | ||
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Whether or not you call it that is completely irrelevant, given that the fact you ignore any plausible town explanation for what he said. You think it's a scumslip. It's not. It's almost completely alignment null and whether or not he is scum should be determined from stuff that actually is relevant. | ||
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thrawn afaik simply jumped on him after the SK thing, he didn't really call him scum at any point before that. | ||
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This vote is not moving until you give me your scumreads and reasons. If I do not believe you, then you will die today. | ||
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One thing I kept in my head about slOosh was that he had two pushes, Prom and Xatalos. He dropped Xatalos rather quickly and outside of those two players he has had no comments on anything. His push on Prom was also pretty bad. There has to be a reason super died. Super was the only person who had a public scumread on slOosh. Outside of that he called Lazer scum and he called Zentor scum. I think slOosh needs to do something though, because if you haven't noticed, he's been laying a bit lower than what I'd feel if he were town. | ||
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On January 16 2013 10:11 slOosh wrote: I think he is town. One is his constant needling of me when I stopped paying attention to him. Scum prefer to lay low and this works directly against it, because it draws my attention. Second is his wbg case. Of all the people to build such a case on, I don't think scum Xatalos would try drawing town WBG's attention to himself like that. how do you know I'm town? | ||
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I call you scum, vote you, and say that I will tunnel the fuck out of you unless you give reads. You see it, panic, and take lots of time to post a half-assed read of someone who you haven't mentioned all game, but happens to be one of my scumreads too, perhaps in the hope that you will get me to agree with you, drop you as a target, and lynch the other guy instead. I think you're both scum, and that post was made as a calculated risk. Too bad your execution was shit. You die today. Hopeless dies tomorrow. | ||
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Why is it taking slOosh almost an hour to come up with these posts, but when he does, there's nothing in them? | ||
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On January 16 2013 12:05 slOosh wrote: This is scummy too and you have to read carefully so he doesn't pull a fast one on you. The first sentence says my push on Prom was pretty bad. Well if it was really clear that Prom was town, why didn't he care that he was being lynched? Why did he put no effort in taking people off the mislynch? In fact, MrZentor accused him from defending Prom, and WBG retorted with confidence he had never called Prom town. No where does he ever explain his town read on Prom, nor did he indicate that he had one. But he wants to pin this mislynch on me, even though he did nothing at the time when it was happening. The second sentence is total WIFOM. Only scum know why they shot super, and an equally plausible explanation is that scum shot super in order to push a slOosh mislynch. It is a terrible reason to lynch someone as scum can use it for that exact reason. No actual reasons for lynching me. your push on Prom WAS bad. I left Prom alone because I wanted him to defend himself. I even said myself that I didn't plan on defending anyone. That's why I said it was bothersome that Prom wasn't defending himself. I found it strange in light of the fact that I had a town read of him-it made my confidence waver. The whole Zentor crap was simply me stopping him from misrepresenting my play. If I wanted to defend Prom I would have, but I wanted to see his response to the case, and I wanted to see what others would do without me stepping in. | ||
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Look at the timestamps. If he was town and actually putting forth proper effort into this game, he would be able to refute all my points, he would be proactive about creating his reads, and he would definitely have said something pre-deadline in the case that he was going to get shot. Post-deadline, when I accuse him of being scum and vote him, he is clearly around. Look at the timestamps: On January 16 2013 09:06 wherebugsgo wrote: ##vote slOosh This vote is not moving until you give me your scumreads and reasons. If I do not believe you, then you will die today. On January 16 2013 10:11 slOosh wrote: I think he is town. One is his constant needling of me when I stopped paying attention to him. Scum prefer to lay low and this works directly against it, because it draws my attention. Second is his wbg case. Of all the people to build such a case on, I don't think scum Xatalos would try drawing town WBG's attention to himself like that. On January 16 2013 10:21 slOosh wrote: Anyways I think hopeless is scum. Biggest tip off was how he didn't care at all about the lynch, especially given that I called him out for it, and his response: Absolutely nothing showed an effort to defend Prom or push someone else harder. He just didn't care about the lynch. Other stuff in his filter gives off wanting to be seen as useful / doing stuff. Like, was this really necessary? He wasn't in danger of being lynched, and he said in the post before that he might "be talking out of my ass". The meticulous follow up certainly does not match up with his previous uncertainty. Hapa's case covers the rest. On January 16 2013 10:23 slOosh wrote: Huh ... I guess I tipped my hand. I think you are scum. (why does he respond to this but not my votepost? Why does he find it necessary to respond to this post at all?) On January 16 2013 10:58 slOosh wrote: Might as well come out with it all. I planned on testing out my read of WBG by presenting my read on hopeless. I think hopeless is scum, and wanted to push him today and gauge WBG's reactions accordingly, especially since it seemed WBG was showing, what I perceive as, some unwarranted leniency to hopeless. Of course this is something characterized under tone, feel etc. which is why I wanted to see his response to better gauge it. I will now field any and all questions. Note how this doesn't explain anything, and he has had PLENTY of time to respond to my accusation of him. Yet, he's still searching. He still posts, but his posts still have absolutely nothing in them. On January 16 2013 11:50 slOosh wrote: Ok I'll slowly visit WBG's posts to show the subtle moves he makes in each one, starting from the ones he made today. In fact, I think the reality is that WBG saw Hapa's case on hopeless and is using my mislynch as a diversion. He is straight out lying about calling hopeless a scumread. Seems like preferential treatment of hopeless. Why does he get a bye when everyone else doesn't? What the crap does the first post mean? "I want this guy to do something, or I'll push him. Tomorrow. After I might die". Do you think WBG is a guy who tolerates crappy play? Then why let hopeless get away with it? WBG is incredibly on the fence with so many people without actually seeming to be wishy washy. He could call anyone a town read and find reason to reverse it, me being a great example. Tricky right? He is misinterpreting the situation. He takes another whole hour simply to quote mine me 3 times and then make some very half-assed comments about me apparently misrepresenting him. This is incredibly shaky. The best part is that he doesn't accompany his now-apparent scumread of me with a vote. He doesn't have the balls to do it, because he's scum and not town. Again, note the timestamps. A town player would not take this long to respond to a serious accusation, and they would not take that long inbetween posts just to post one or two lines of general commentary about quotes that were cherrypicked from my filter. | ||
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Given that he flipped town, I had to reevaluate in light of that knowledge. Not doing that is stupid. As for the rest of this shit, notice slOosh has still not voted. He seems to be gauging the thread to see whether he's going to be able to get support to lynch me, or if he's going to have to swap over to Hopeless. If I am right, and I have a 95% confidence that slOosh is scum and maybe about 70-80% that he is scum with Hopeless, he's doing this because if there is no support to lynch me then he is going to be forced to bus. This explains the lack of vote completely. Any townie in this situation would have picked one or the other-the stronger read, and would have gone with it. He's worrying about having to change his opinion, something townies don't worry about. Anyway, I'm gonna be watching Rounders so I'll be back later (I'm actually probably out for the night). Thanks for playing slOosh, better luck when you roll scum next time. | ||
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alright, fair enough. Let's bring out Hopeless and then we can move onto this slOosh business later. ##unvote ##vote Hopeless1der | ||
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Would you be down to lynch slOosh? For the record I'd be willing to lynch into any of slOosh/LM/grush/Zentor, my priority being that order. | ||
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slOosh, on the other hand, is still scum. ##unvote ##vote slOosh | ||
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On January 17 2013 01:44 Xatalos wrote: Don't you have anything to say about the several reasons for you to be scum? And for the record, when and why did your scumread on me disappear? nope, there are no reasons to call me scum. This is the last time I'll address this: it's not worth my time to reply to things like this. Read Ver's guide. | ||
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No one does any work around here. | ||
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On January 17 2013 03:13 Hapahauli wrote: Apparently no one does any thinking either, if we're going to lynch someone over Hopeless today. I'd agree with that too, given that both thrawn and zentor simply swapped their votes over to slOosh as soon as I did. I think both slOosh and Hopeless are good lynches for today. If they are both scum, and it's certainly possible, who does that leave us with for a third scum? Grush? If one of them is not? | ||
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You seem to be "not convinced" that slOosh is scum. Then, we are looking at TWO additional scum, not just one. So, who? I don't want to lynch Hopeless just to have him flip town and then have to start all over again like we had to do today. Chances are strong that if we don't talk now about these types of possibilities we won't be able to later. ignoring Zentor's activity, what makes him town? What's your opinion on grush? Lazer? | ||
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Correct? | ||
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I'm feeling lazy so let's just kill Hopeless. I don't think anything is going to happen in the near future to make either read stronger and so it's just best to consolidate our votes rather than continue to inflate the thread with further pointless back-and-forths. ##unvote ##vote Hopeless1der | ||
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On January 17 2013 04:27 Xatalos wrote: So WBG gets a pass for being active? Did you even read my case? Where do you see him being "concerned" really? He was pretty unbelievably indifferent about the D1 lynch, and now he's open to several different lynches depending on how the thread goes... I think the case on Hopeless is decent, but most of those points - indifference about the lynch, weak attitude to pushing scumreads, flinging suspicion at people without pushing them - apply to WBG as well (especially during D1). Actually even MrZentor has done similar stuff - and he's most likely town. I do think that Hopeless has done scummy things but he's not our best lynch. Congratulations, you just proved that indifference and uncertainty is not always scum indicative. Now please pay attention to the thread and take off your fucking confirmation bias goggles. | ||
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On January 17 2013 04:33 slOosh wrote: Three scum? Where does it say that? nice attempt at acting dumb. Man, your effort as scum really needs to be better. | ||
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You kill 3 and then the game's not over, clearly there's someone left to kill. What a stupid argument, slOosh is just saying this to throw dirt on legitimate and well-reasoned assumptions on the setup. Indeed, he has nothing else to say, because he's scum. On January 17 2013 05:03 Xatalos wrote: Not always, but more often than not. Why would town be indifferent towards their win condition (lynching scum)? Scum, on the other hand, would be playing towards their win condition by leaving their options open. MrZentor is a special case and doesn't count. You have no such excuse. lol wut I'm not indifferent to lynching scum, I'm indifferent to having to talk repeatedly to people like you. | ||
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Instead, let's do what slOosh is doing: let's sow doubt, not actually scumhunt, and come back into the thread every few hours to whine about something minor/irrelevant. | ||
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On January 17 2013 05:21 Xatalos wrote: If you're not indifferent, how do you explain your constant sheeping of the thread and switching your votes for the pettiest of reasons? I'm not sheeping the thread you moron, I'm pushing both Hopeless AND slOosh. Which one dies I don't actually care because I think they're both scum. I'm definitely indifferent to that, so you can suck on your indifference there. The votes aren't going to make sense until they flip, and if and only if one of them flips town-right now the votes are incredibly even. If one of them ends up flipping town we'll know that scum were likely more behind it. On January 17 2013 05:27 Hapahauli wrote: Votes Ruuch, afks for the entire night cycle, comes back and says he thinks iamperfection is town for no reasoning, then proceeds to make arguments against me based on the "assumption" of iamp being town. Furthermore, he stated that he didn't understand my reasoning for voting Ruuch, which is incredibly scummy considering that he voted Ruuch himself. This is actually an excellent point and probably the strongest reason I've seen yet for voting Hopeless. | ||
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It doesn't matter what their appearance was before that, because a lurker who has never played before can either be town OR scum. They are only more likely to be town by virtue of chance. | ||
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It was a much better lynch than Prom at the time. The only reason iamp is even arguing against it is because he replaced in for the guy and self-preservation is how mafia works. | ||
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It deters scum from doing shit like this. Lynch all liars deters scum from lying. Lurker lynch policy deters scum from lurking. Last minute vote policy prevents scum from lurking and then placing a last minute vote to escape modkill. A year ago, the number of scum who would lurk or do nothing in a game of 30 (out of 6 scum) would be maybe 1, 2, 3 at the very most and very very rarely. In a game like this it would maybe be 1 or none at all. A year ago any such action by any player would have been met with a policy lynch. Look at Storm Mafia, and see what happened to RoL in that game for doing the exact same thing that Ruuch did in this game. Nowadays you could feasibly have a whole team doing absolutely nothing at all, and the problem is that there will be just as many townies doing the exact same thing, so you have to somehow discriminate between them. That's when you get to lylo and realize that one of the consistently towniest looking players has actually been scum this entire time, and it's too late since everyone with a brain died in the first couple cycles. | ||
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On January 17 2013 14:08 jaybrundage wrote: Eh obviously doing what Ruunch did should be discouraged. But you have to look at the context too. This guy was completely new to the game. I dont think any scum would do that because its stupid and scummy as hell if they have any idea to play the game. Policy lynches are guidelines to prevent good play across games. But also if Ruunch isn't scum then he's a waste of a lynch. Regardless the town didn't policy lynch him. I guess i can take the people switching as a non alignment indicative tell. As I understand a bit more why people did it. But I still maintain that it was a dumb wagon. If there isn't a high chance of someone flipping scum then don't lynch them think about what you are saying. His behavior would have been almost exactly the same regardless of his alignment, because here's a shocker: people who have done what he did in the past have flipped scum. it's stupid BUT SCUM STILL DO IT. | ||
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Anyway: On January 17 2013 17:34 jaybrundage wrote: Yea thats why i asked about his lynch tomorrow I didn't notice the tmw, my brain must've simply skipped over that part. I wouldn't say I'd lynch him tomorrow either, surprisingly enough there are still better targets regardless of whether hopeless/slOosh flip town or scum today. For one, there's LazerMonkey, who, given the opportunity to lurk, has taken it to say absolutely nothing at all. | ||
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You're not going to lynch me today, or probably ever. Pick between slOosh and Hopeless. | ||
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LOL. I wish scum always made it this easy | ||
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I'm not buying that, try putting in more effort next time, scum. | ||
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He said some true things; i.e. there are like 4-5 players who are getting away with doing nothing, and certainly it's possible that the scum are within them. Do you think slOosh is genuinely frustrated as town, or is he faking? | ||
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On January 18 2013 03:17 Lazermonkey wrote: My main scum read died N1 you know. I had to reevaluate my reads alot after that. and you have been "intensely reading the thread" for 2 days but still you haven't been able to reevaluate yet, despite it having been over 30 hours since that guy died, and there being plenty in the thread to talk about since. Right... | ||
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On January 18 2013 04:05 thrawn2112 wrote: then why are you voting for hopeless other than sloosh or lazer? Lazer's not getting lynched today, and I want to keep the votes close. | ||
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that's literally the only downside to killing him, it seemed like the wagon appeared too fast. | ||
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I do also recall that Hopeless played somewhat similarly to this in another game as well, but I'm not quite sure what to think of it, given that I think he was playing like that because of lack of time. He seemed to not be willing to comment on much and he wasn't around at all, but he was town. LM what do you think of Xatalos attacking me? | ||
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On January 18 2013 05:25 grush57 wrote: I'm tired of constantly lynching town players that play scumlike :'( you mean like yourself? | ||
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On January 18 2013 05:27 grush57 wrote: wbg why are u scum this game and everyone is sheeping you. says the guy sheeping me right now | ||
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 Try reading the thread the next time your role PM is red | ||
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On January 18 2013 05:43 grush57 wrote: And wbg you called 8 people scum so far I have no problem with that, maybe people should play less like scum. | ||
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tell me, who was the person who started the slOosh wagon, which you are on right now? Oh right, me. | ||
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On January 18 2013 05:51 grush57 wrote: So that automatically means I sheeped you? you certainly haven't done jack shit that is original. On January 18 2013 05:52 grush57 wrote: And if you truly think sl0osh is scum then why do u call me scum for voting him when hopeless was leading? I call you scum for doing fuck all. | ||
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On January 18 2013 06:54 grush57 wrote: hmm WBG hopeywopey or yummuslooshieslushy? so according to you, I am scum, but you are asking me this in order to place your vote? | ||
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Around lynch day 1 he claimed to have a town read on Prom but didn't do anything to save him other than join the last minute Ruuch bandwagon. | ||
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I know Prom wasn't around either but he actually said in thread that he'd be at work before leaving. (something I had missed earlier) Neither slOosh nor Hopeless have taken an active role in either a.) defending themselves or b.) trying to find scum. This is, IMO, pretty uncharacteristic of BOTH of their town games. slOosh as town is one of the better players in the game, and I know from cohosting with Hopeless and playing with him in past games that he sometimes has similar ideas to me when it comes to scumhunting and playing. So why are they both playing so out of character? I AM glad, though, that we were able to get the vote so close. Even if we lynch wrongly today the votes and the changes should at least give a better idea of how to proceed. | ||
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rofl what's with players this game and insta-delurking when called out? | ||
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let's see what happens if I do this: ##unvote ##vote slOosh | ||
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On January 18 2013 07:50 iamperfection wrote: The guy that is set to die still dies nope. I'm pretty sure it puts slOosh in the lead because it's a net 2 vote swing. minus 1 on H he goes from 5 to 4 and then slOosh goes from 4 to 5 | ||
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Take about 10-12 minutes if you're curious, skim through them both. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826&user=53783¤tpage=All http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=53783¤tpage=All | ||
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no read on hopeless. rofl | ||
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Whatever, it's still bollocks (I am not scum, for example, and who the fuck would out a blue as a townie?) | ||
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On January 18 2013 08:39 Hopeless1der wrote: its in there, just not outlined. It basically says I'm a lazy piece of shit and need to step up my game if he flips town and I'm also town. that's not a read, it's a conditional. | ||
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I couldn't actually determine whether he was the SK or mafia, but I didn't want to speculate. My gut said he was SK but I simply argued that he was scum because it was simpler. At least I know now I'm not shit at metaing people. Let's kill Hopeless tomorrow. | ||
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Deal with it. I may decide to lynch Mr. Lazerscum instead, but who knows, there's probably about 24 hours before I get shot in the face anyway. | ||
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people who were willing to lynch slOosh early on (why the bandwagon moved so quickly, basically) are more likely to be scum because 1. scum would not know there is an SK unless their shot was blocked. That actually is certainly possible given that super was convinced slOosh was scum. Since super died n1 and no one else died, it's possible that scum knew there was an SK if and only if their shot was blocked. 2. If scum also shot super, (and either the SK stacked or chose not to shoot) then everyone who was more willing to lynch slOosh early on is likely to be scum. The hardest part about being scum is predicting town's sentiment, and they need to do it in order to blend in. I tried to be as unpredictable as possible in order to force scum to make tough decisions. I don't know if it worked, but because the vote was so close, d2 is a goldmine of information. Names that stand out without me even going back to reread are grush, Zentor, Hopeless, and Lazer. 3. Anyone who stayed away from slOosh and Hopeless completely, but still had reasons for doing so is a bit more likely to be town. I'm not sure how to read players like this (i.e. Xatalos) but I think rereading should help here. Everyone's job now for the night should be to go back and reread. If you find something interesting, report it. I'll try to post stuff before the deadline tomorrow but there's a strong chance I won't be here at that time. Tomorrow is Friday, I fly back to school on the weekend, and I'll be going out. | ||
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this makes the double insta-delurk make much more sense now. When I was thinking about it, I was convinced that both of them couldn't be scum because of it. If they were both scum they certainly both wouldn't reenter at the same time. However, I expected either of them as town to be active BEFORE being called out. It makes far more sense now in retrospect for one of them to be SK and the other to be mafia. I don't think I am incorrect about Hopeless being mafia. slOosh's reads at the very least would be partially motivated by trying to find scum. He, as third party, has almost as much of an interest in finding scum as we do. Indeed, if he got Hopeless lynched, he would have either looked far better or far worse (if Hopeless flipped scum/town respectively, obviously). The other thing I noticed was that I liked Hopeless's list of voters more than slOosh's. This is consistent in retrospect, seeing slOosh flip SK. | ||
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On January 18 2013 09:33 thrawn2112 wrote: WBG: why were you trying to lynch someone you thought was sk instead of 2 other people (hope/lazer) you had scumreads on? I'm not going to assume a guy is SK just because I think his meta matches it. There was no evidence that an SK even existed. Partly the reason I thought he might possibly be SK is because hopeless and slOosh were both doing things that made no sense if they were both scum. Initially my reaction was maybe one of them is just playing like shit town, so I preferred slOosh over hopeless for that (and that read kind of waffled over time as people kept pointing out good reasons to lynch both of them) In particular the double delurk made me really question what was going on. That's when I went back and looked in slOosh's past games and found two games where I thought his play was similar to this one. I didn't check his alignment till I had completed reading the filters and come to the conclusion that he was some kind of scum in both. There was some sort of difference I couldn't really pin down, and then when I read the alignments, the first one was assassin and the second one was scum. I had a feeling his play was more similar to the first game but I really wasn't that confident to simply call him SK. | ||
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Zentor has incredibly minimal interaction with Hopeless, but at one point chose to call Hopeless shady. There is one other mention of Hopeless where Zentor says Hopeless was subtly defending some people, but other than that there's nothing. Something to keep in mind for the future (also, this entire past cycle he did absolutely nothing. He chose to vote slOosh and lurked the day away, something I'd expect scum to do, given that scum tend to start the game off more active and drop off as it drags on) | ||
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Assuming 3 scum, and assuming both Lazer and Hopeless are scum, the last one is between grush/zentor/Xata and my order of preference is that order. There are lots of good things going for a town-view of Xata, so force him to contribute as long as he is alive and as long as things make sense he should be fine. Zentor and grush are somewhat similar-looking to me and I keep waffling between them, but they both look terrible. If one of them dies and flips town just kill the other one. Chances are strong that if one of Lazer/Hopeless is town then they are both scum IMO. Kill Lazer and Hopeless first. Reevaluate after each death, after every flip, and MAKE SURE you read the comments of confirmed townies such as SS, myself, etc. after we are dead. Do not forget them. Game shouldn't be that hard IMO unless someone like Hapa or Jay has snuck scum. | ||
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On January 19 2013 12:05 Hopeless1der wrote: Yeah I'm going to make a case on Hapa tomorrow morning, tired right now This guy getting lynched... (•_•) Guess you're pretty ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) hopeless | ||
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The scum pretty much have to be between grush, Lazer, Hopeless, and jay. I really don't think they anticipated shooting a mason. | ||
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Here's a fact: if you are a town RB, I expect you to claim right the fuck now. It's far likelier that scum have RB, not town. The RBs in this context make much more sense, particularly given that a confirmed SK called Xata blue. If any town RBed Xata following that then they are incredibly retarded. Hopeless is stupid for missing this in the first place, and IMO it cements the notion that he is scum. | ||
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I still want to hear from Hapa, but Hopeless in the meantime is not making himself look any better. | ||
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Anyway some of my reasons to switch votes were lazy or waffly (or deceptive even) but I did want both slOosh and Hopeless to stay relevant lynches. I could have said nothing at all and I would have done the vote switches anyway. That's why, for example, my vote was on Hopeless for the majority of the time. He was consistently behind in votes. If I swapped over to slOosh at a bad time then it would make a Hopeless lynch less likely, because a net 2 vote switch is likely to scare off all the noobs into making real stances. If you're town and can't understand why I would want a close lynch, and why I would be interested in forcing scum to take sides like that, then I'd suggest you reread Ver's town guide. | ||
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Hopeless passing off the town RB as if he meant jailkeeper is hilarious. If he was town and was really trying to figure out the roleblocks he would have mentioned both the town RB and JK possibilities. However, his intention becomes clear when you look at how he phrased his argument. He attacked the RB claims specifically to make Hapa and Xata look bad. If he had doubt about the claims then he's have considered all angles. I personally didn't doubt the claims, and I almost fell for the false dichotomy that Hopeless posed; it was scum or town RB (but in reality there are THREE possibilities, not two). I don't think he did this intentionally, but the omission makes far more sense from a scum standpoint because as town I really don't think he's that dumb to blindly tunnel someone so hard he has to resort to bad logic to call them scum. As for whatever Lazer said, if you really are town and you think me doing something slightly deceptive to get the vote counts in a FAVORABLE POSITION FOR TOWN is scummy, then again, you need to reread Ver's guide. I needed to be crafty with my vote in order to get the most influence out of it, because no one else seems to actually care about the game. | ||
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I'll feel a bit bad if Hopeless is indeed town, but I doubt it. I'm also saddened by the fact that the overall trend of these games still hasn't changed. Still there are always so many deadweight players. Why do you all sign up for games if you're going to be such a detriment to your own faction? | ||
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The vote separation is really quite interesting. If Hopeless and Lazer are both town then it means nothing, but I don't think that's likely. Seeing as Lazer is the counterwgon to Hopeless it seems unlikely they are both scum too, unless Lazer is goon and Hopeless is RB or something stupid like that. And if only one of them is scum, the votecounts tell the story! Hapa, Xata, Jay: thoughts on killing Lazer? | ||
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Lol there's pros and cons to lynching them both. Convince me to vote. Most swaying arguments for either side will get my vote. I'll be around till deadline. | ||
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##vote Hopeless1der | ||
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Lazer very well could be scum with him, but let's wait for the flip I guess. | ||
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As for grush, I don't think his vote is necessarily where his mouth is, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. | ||
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Jay is still afk, I recall him saying something about his Internet being fixed tmrw but that's pretty annoying too. Meh. Let's just hope that hopeless flips scum, or then maybe we'll be looking a little bit hopeless :p | ||
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Good news though is that, though we have to lynch correctly tomorrow, it's actually quite a bit easier now. We basically have a free lynch in grush IMO and Lazer is still quite likely to flip scum too. | ||
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I'm not convinced Hapa is scum just based on Hopeless flipping town. Townies tunnel each other all the time. I'll reevaluate him but his arguments have been good and he has noticed things I would not expect scum to notice, so I doubt my read will change. Zentor is 100% town unless someone decided to do something incredibly retarded, and iamp is pretty clearly town I think. That leaves grush and the non-Hapa Hopeless voters. I am town, that leaves you two and jay. | ||
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On January 13 2013 10:13 Hapahauli wrote: Of course I'm serious - there's something illogical and scummy about his play and I'm going to get answers for it whether you like it or not. As for the bolded point, that's an incredibly short-sighted views on things. There are many many ways he can respond to my question in terms of activity, tone, frequency, etc. I'm interested in much more than the answer itself. On January 17 2013 03:48 Hapahauli wrote: If I had to pick two right now, I'd say SloOsh/Grush I have reasons to think everyone else is town. Iamperfection is being active and open, which is indicative of his town-play (especially this early after replacing in). Whether or not he sustains this activity will be how I ultimately read him, but so far he's being townie. Jay is also more active than I'd expect from his scum-play. MrZ is also being active and open. The things that people find "scummy" about him (early town reads, lack of pushing reads) are completely normal for his town-play. It's the attention-grabbing in the early-game that really makes me think he's town. The early town-reads, him drawing attention to himself through his activity... these aren't things that scum MrZ does. Xata is gunning for you WBG, and I find that horrendously brave for a scum to do. Especially for him. Lazer was pushed by Hopeless for most of the game. Outside his "slip" or whatever, I can't find any reasons that he's scum. Thrawn's early game voting and attention grabbing is indicative of his town play. And you WBG have been one of the more active and concerned players in recent days. that I do not see mafia making. Why would Hapa point out that you were attacking me, which makes you likelier to be town? I'm not seeing it unless you are both scum together or something weird like that. If he is scum, he's played well, he's played very actively, and quite honestly I'd be hard pressed lynching someone like that when literally everyone else in the game looks worse than him. Hell, just look at Zentor. He's confirmed town and if it weren't for the mason claim and his early day 1 play I'd probably be calling him scum too. | ||
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On January 21 2013 11:15 Hapahauli wrote: @ WBG How did you go from this on grush: To this: I went back and reread after the flip, grush looks bad regardless of the flip. At first I thought that perhaps he might look worse for defending a scum Hopeless, but he looks worse either way; the timing was too convenient. | ||
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That's almost never true. I can't see any of the Hopeless voters being scum. That leaves grush plus whoever was on Lazer. | ||
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My talk about whether my town reads were wrong or not was me doubting Hopeless being scum over the fact that I found the voters on Lazer to be townier than the voters on Hopeless. Tell me, how are you going to judge players this game by content when literally half the player base has done nothing? Can you name something that grush has done? Or Zentor? Or Xatalos? Or jay? Or Lazer? Their contributions are nonexistent, there are only small things that you can come up with and they are pretty waffly either way. The only reason Zentor is town is because he is mason. The other 3? Who knows what they are. The votecounts are quite useful in this type of situation and far more useful than you make them out to be. | ||
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I'm not going to get shot tonight either since Zentor is confirmed town. | ||
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Confirmed town > anything at lylo. That's one person you can't lynch. | ||
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Let's kill grush today. we have: myself iamp Xata Jay Hapa Lazer grush In rough order of towniness, though I honestly have no idea where to put Hapa. He didn't come back with reads despite promising to do so and that degrades him considerably. ##vote grush57 | ||
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On January 22 2013 10:42 iamperfection wrote: any ideas on how we can spur activity. not really, this has been a problem for me 3 games in a row. Around this point in the game the town just becomes void of everything because anyone who would have talked is already dead. | ||
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On January 22 2013 10:45 iamperfection wrote: and yet here we stand bugs. I was going through your games bugs and unless the database is wrong you haven't played a scum game in quite some time. yup, not since Space Station Mafia. I don't actually like playing mafia all that much. On January 22 2013 10:50 jaybrundage wrote: I have a great fucking idea. How about we spam shit up while im here. WBG thoughts on Iamps suspicious of hapa? I think it's fairly warranted but I'm not sure how much to suspect him simply based on the Hopeless flip. He hasn't done anything outside of push Hopeless, and it's very weird that he isn't around now, that his activity has dropped immensely, and that he didn't do his promised read-dump. On January 22 2013 10:50 jaybrundage wrote: Both of you whats your guess for the scum team? 3 of grush, Hapa, Xatalos, Lazer. In that order from scummiest to towniest. Grush I think is almost 100% scum. On January 22 2013 10:50 jaybrundage wrote: WBG and Lamp what are you thoughts on Lazer? He's been fairly scummy all game but there are certain things that I found odd for scum to say. I was suspicious of kush too...but some things don't add up. On January 22 2013 10:50 jaybrundage wrote: And lol on Lamps comment thats a good point. Hapa WBG and Lamp all are decent players. Also WBG do you want to lynch Lamp or Lamp2 I I think one of them could be scum the other guys is just an asshole. Not really interested in lynching iamp, no. He COULD be scum, but I just don't see it. I've been fooled well if he is. | ||
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##unvote ##vote Hapahauli | ||
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that's pretty ironic, coming from you. | ||
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Thrawn might have died because he was suspicious of both lazer and hapa. If he was right about both it makes far more sense why he was shot over me, since I was suspicious of Hopeless over lazer and hapa wasn't even a scumread for me. Thrawn's death makes Lazer and Hapa both look worse. No one has really suspected Xata, and grush is grush. So it's pick your poison, really. | ||
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On January 22 2013 11:07 grush57 wrote: WBG, I'm not scum. You think I am but lets say that you know I'm not. Who is the other 3rd scum? if you're not scum then it has to be xata + lazer + hapa. There's pretty much no other choices. | ||
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If Xata is claiming the RB again that means it CERTAINLY wasn't a JK. Even a moron would have targetted Zentor last night, and any non-JK town RB would have claimed by now. In order for Hapa to be scum then either scum roleblocked super, they roleblocked slOosh (not buying it, as there would have been a CC from slOosh and he would've just gotten hapa killed) or they held it. I can't see them holding the RB and it's certainly possible they RBed super, so not much to go on there, but okay. Xata has claimed roleblock twice in a row. I think that makes him town, as I don't see why mafia would hold their roleblock twice in a row. This means that xata should be crossed off the scum lists IMO. | ||
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Would a scum really suicidally push a townie that hard? I'm not getting that part at all. sure, some of his reads look strange in hindsight, after knowing that Hopeless flipped town, but I think you can find town motivation behind most, if not all, of the things that he did. I'm super confused at why a scum, who knows Hopeless is town (and that Hopeless is one of the better players in the game) would just push him so hard for two days straight with not even an ounce of hesitation. Tunnel-syndrome is almost exclusive to townies. If anyone has seen Hapa play a scum game before in this style I'd love to see it, It is troubling that he didn't do a read-dump and that he's afk now but this is mind boggling to me. | ||
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I'm not going to bother defending someone who doesn't even want to defend themselves, so if he's town then the loss is on him. | ||
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On January 23 2013 07:07 Xatalos wrote: WBG, do you think that grush is town if Hapa flips scum? It feels pretty drastic to start heavily bussing Hapa during D3 (when he wasn't yet suspected by almost anyone). wait, when was that? I don't remember grush attacking him like that. I remember him switching off Hopeless and onto Hapa. There is nothing particularly alignment indicative about anything grush has done. If grush is not scum, then I take it you argue that Lazer + jay are? Is Lazer 100% scum then? I don't see grush not being scum, tbh. | ||
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Anyone who has read the game can tell you that I am one of the few players interested in actually killing scum. I already killed one. | ||
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Well, I got fooled pretty hard d1 and 2 :p | ||
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 + Show Spoiler + jk Hapa, you played well despite being red, I will hate you for it but it's not personal :p I can see good reasons for lynching Lazer too, the narrow escapes being the best. Where is iamp? | ||
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If one of them is not scum then who is? | ||
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It pretty much has to be lazer + grush I think. Let's start with the votecounts, starting with day 1. Day 1: Xatalos (1): jaybrundage Promethelax (7): slOosh, thrawn2112, grush57, MrZentor, Xatalos, Ruuch, Supersoft Lazermonkey (1): Promethelax Ruuch (4): Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo, Hapahauli, Hopeless1der Hapa votes Ruuch, which makes it almost impossible for Ruuch to be mafia. It was a latecycle switch and I don't see a scum hapa being willing to switch on his own teammate, since mafia cannot accurately predict what town will do in that type of a situation. Lazer also happened to vote Ruuch. (and yes, my vote is there too) This makes iamp surely town. d2 votecount doesn't really mean much, since from a mafia perspective the lynch was between two townies. d3 we have Hopeless dying and here's where things are interesting. Hopeless1der (5): Hapahauli, Xatalos, jaybrundage, Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo Lazermonkey (3): Hopeless1der, MrZentor, iamperfection Hapahauli (1): grush57 There are three townies on lazer. That means the three scum have to be between grush and everyone on Hopeless. Grush at some point was on Hopeless, but didn't like the hopeless lynch. Grush is not stupid-he trolls, but he is smart enough to know that voting Hapa randomly in the middle of a divided wagon like that is not going to get hapa lynched. He wasted his vote here. If he had simply placed it on Lazer then lazer would have had 4 votes, meaning that any one townie who switched off Hopeless onto lazer would've killed lazer over hopeless. Also, it fits with this really weird tendency by scum to stay off the same wagon. I've only once ever seen all the mafia on a team place their votes on the same wagon. It almost never happens, they are generally aware enough to not make that kind of trend pop out even though ultimately no one looks for it that much. Now, do one thing: take the word "grush", and open Hapa's filter in a new tab. ctrl-f, paste. Notice the difference between how Hapa talks about grush and how he talks about pretty much every other player in the game. Notice how he questions people about grush but almost never talks to him, makes a read of his own about him, or in general really takes a stance either way about him. Note how when he is asked to make reads, he makes a singular, relatively weak post about grush, and then, unlike all of the other players he talks about, chooses to quote himself in order to reiterate what he said previously. Scum HATE to make opinions on players, especially their own teammates. They'll do a lot of different things to avoid talking about scumbuddies, and avoidance is the keyword when it comes to hapa regarding grush. He also asks several times, with other players, notably myself and Hopeless, why we think grush is scum. He didn't seem to care all that much about us calling other players scum, so why did he care so much about grush despite not really providing a read of his own there? This is reinforced in the other direction by the incredibly strange stance change that grush took. He was voting Hopeless and then suddenly randomly he simply dumped his vote onto Hapa. It made no sense except as a distance attempt, knowing that Hopeless would flip town. The second thing I'd like you all to do while the Hapa filter is open, is ctrl-f kush. At some point you will run into the phrase "kush is being kush". This phrase is only used twice by Hapa. Once, saying "grush is being grush", and once, "kush is being kush." Coincidence? I don't think so. Remember, kush got replaced by lazer. I was suspicious of kush d1. Now, look again at how Hapa interacts with kush. He calls him useless, says he's being scummy, and in general gives vibes that he actually thinks kush is scum when he interacts directly with kush. However, with other players, he refuses to put a read on kush! He refuses to say either way what he thinks of kush. The last thing to do here is to search lazer, obviously. This is better, but ONLY because Lazer was a replacement. Hapa uses the replacement as an excuse to push off his read of lazer, and he talks about lazer the most but really doesn't ultimately say anything about his alignment if you read carefully. Sorry for the shitty formatting but I wanted to get this all out before I went to bed. | ||
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That's why rereading is really key and if none of you are currently doing that, then you need to. Hapa dying and flipping scum is a treasure trove of information precisely because he was so active. He would have been forced to make opinions on his teammates. | ||
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He mentions Crossfire maybe...3 times, and all he does is ask people if he's a smurf or what, and then doesn't try to further a read on him. Then, he makes an offhand remark later in the game about something Crossfire did or said. Nothing there. He doesn't mention his second teammate at all from what I could tell. His biggest concerns were debears, talking to marv, Z-Boson, and some others (yes, he was only alive d1, but still). I was curious to see who his other teammate was, so I went into the endgame and saw djodref. Having read Hapa's filter and small bits and pieces in context of his posts I would never have even guessed djo was playing that game. I'm pretty confident in light of this that grush is hapa's scumbuddy. | ||
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On January 24 2013 05:29 grush57 wrote: I suggest we lynch either between me or wbg tommorow because if I get lynched we won't waste time lynching lazer than me causing town loss, plus if we lynch wbg then lazer will probably surrender. soooo if you are town what interest do you have in lynching me before lazer? You just basically said lazer is 100% scum, but that you'd rather lynch between us over him. If you were actually town and actually believed I was scum with Lazer then you'd know that lynching between me and you is 50/50, whereas lynching Lazer is 100%. Nice scumclaim. | ||
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Town loses if we lynch wrong tomorrow. it's what, 4v3 now? hapa scum, townie dies = 3v2 tomorrow. Town LOSES if we lynch wrong. This is a fucking scum claim by grush. | ||
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also, no matter what you say, you cannot call me scum for simply being alive, that's ignoring literally everything else I've done this game. You're not this dumb as town. Quite frankly, I would be so incredibly mad if you flipped town this game that I'd probably quit for a while. I'm not even kidding, because if you are town your play will literally be the worst I have ever seen on this forum. As town, you have no interest in considering other possibilities? I don't find that likely. You have simply suddenly jumped to the conclusion that I am scum, you've basically ignored all other possibilities, and you certainly don't seem to have been interested in actually figuring out the game. If you are town that is quite honestly pathetic. If you are town why wouldn't you have asked yourself if Xata or jay could be scum? Lastly, and this is the important part: if you are town, and you really thought it would come down to me and you, you'd support lynching lazer first. That gives town MUCH more time to discuss and actually deliberate. Those who want to end the game as quickly as possible before town can think about it are scum. Scum don't want to drag the game out, it's too painful and hard. You're under scrutiny for much longer. I'd much rather take you to 2v1 and then argue it out, and I can guarantee you that you will lose. Not willing to do that? Too lazy? You're not town. | ||
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rofl, you really didn't think this through, did you? | ||
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My posts with Hapa: I call him stupid because I had a town read on him at the time! My posts asking super about reads, I was wrong. Wrong = scum? Since when? Also, grush says I wanted an easy mislynch on Ruuch. If I was looking for an easy mislynch then why wouldn't i have simply voted Prom? He also misrepresents my opinion about Prom in that post. I said I had a bad feeling about Prom when he didn't defend himself because I had a townread on Prom. When a townread disappears. you doubt that townread. grush says I didn't defend him and that's scummy. The fuck? I stated that because Prom's disappearance made me doubt my townread on him. Nothing weird there, it's just grush grasping at straws. | ||
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On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote: Also to respond to your case becasue I pulled a wbg with my earlier respone... A strong town vet surviving to lylo is suspicious. Hell people policy lynch marv just if he survives. I survived almost to lylo in the very last mini I played. In fact, in the last 2-3 minis I've played scum have avoided shooting me over shooting other players. It's simply because I have been wrong. This is not any different this game, I was right about slOosh but slOosh wasn't on the scumteam. I was wrong about Hapa and he was. Not alignment indicative. On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote: Yea there is a possibility of Jay being scum. Hey grush make a case or if you don't I'll lynch you! But I won't do anything myself........ Yet you never considered it. You never deliberated it, you never gave a reason for considering jay town. You've basically just assumed it and you've done fuck all throughout the game until now when you are in danger of dying. And what you're saying makes no sense. Me calling you out on your lack of transparency has nothing to do with you not making a case on jay, and quite frankly your misinterpretation is what makes this hilarious. As scum you think all you need to do is make cases to survive. rofl. Part of the job as town in lylo is to examine all possibilities and you've ignored 4 out of 6 of them. On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote: Yea I know me wanting to end the game quick sounds extremely scummy, but I was honest that I just wanted to save time. Going through your filter has changed my mind tho, I can lynch LZ first :D. going through my filter has changed your mind? Doesn't sound like it. This is a lie. | ||
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On January 24 2013 06:48 grush57 wrote: What would be easier to explain someone voting at the last minute or prome. ??? this is not even a complete question | ||
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On January 24 2013 06:52 grush57 wrote: Alright compeltely throwout what I said about jay and reading filters because I'm in danger of dying. ##Unvote ##Vote: WhereBugsGo Hapa has declared scum! GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET WBG rofl. that's what I thought. Scum want to win ASAP. Honestly if my alignment was reversed with Hapa's I would have gone for broke and tried to get a townie lynched today, but I'm greedy like that and my #1 interest as scum is to end the game without a single scum dying. It's hard to win after one of you has flipped when you are playing an active game, because there are connections and problems everywhere, even if you led the game for a long time before that. Also, when your teammates are more inactive than you, they become demoralized after the most active guy dies and will often give up. grush wants to end the game ASAP. He doesn't want to read filters, he doesn't want to figure out the game, and because of all of these things he doesn't want town to win. He also accuses me of contradicting myself when I haven't done so at all, but he contradicts himself here. He says screw what I said about the filters and jay (and I suspected it was a lie to begin with-he claimed he would support me in killing lazer because of reading my filter but it didn't sound like he read it at all, just went back and cherry picked everything he could, as lazily as he could) | ||
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On January 24 2013 07:00 grush57 wrote: you really think scum would actually do that? lol It's lylo with 3 scum left, and I would suicide? I wanted to get a reaction out of you. I can't believe you just put all that bullshit about how the game is over, im actually scum and giving the game up. btw I meant that as what you said about completely throwing out what I said. Anyways becasue I hate dealing with wbg and he had some pretty townie stuff, iamperfection I am going to pull a jay and get you to do a case for me. In the meantime, ##Unvote ##Hapahauli I'll be looking at jay baby :D no, this is me calling your shitty bluff. You're not going to read jay and you certainly didn't read shit from my filter, you just copy + pasted it and summarized it in the shittiest manner possible. | ||
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On January 24 2013 07:03 grush57 wrote: that language is why no one wants to talk to you :'( and your playstyle is why I hate playing with you. seriously, if you flip town I'm quitting mafia for a good 3-4 months. | ||
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Sometimes you're more of an asset to mafia as town than as mafia! Seriously, what the fuck?! I don't understand what the motivation is behind playing the way you do. You sign up for multiple games and afk through them all, forcing townies to question whether or not you're scum or town lurking it away. It's not fun to have to deal with players like you, it makes the game almost impossible to win. | ||
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grush if you're town, it's not personal, I just really despise having to read players who do not post and do not do anything for the majority of the game. lylo situations are always frustrating because I feel like it's always a crapshoot between lots of players who simply have not put in very much effort into the game. If scum have put in effort (like Hapa) over the townies, then how are you to tell the difference between a lurking scum and a townie? Its one of the hardest things to do in mafia, and to be asked to do that multiple times is just mentally exhausting. | ||
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hapa's main push on d1 of that game was debears. He voted thrawn once and then promptly unvoted him and tunneled debears the rest of d1. His vote ended on Z-Bos and from what I could tell it spent the least time on thrawn. He might have voted thrawn, but he didn't push him. He definitely pushed debears, and one could argue he tried to push DP and Z-Bo, too. The situations are also quite different-in this game, Hapa was under almost no pressure until yesterday, whereas in that game he was under pressure since day 1. The only alternative to grush really is jay and remotely Xata, if we believe scum have been holding RB. It's rather ambiguous though, whether they held RB or used it on the night Hapa claimed it. If Xata is scum then slOosh's claim of Xata being blue is the perfect excuse to hold RB, but still, I'm not that sure. Unfortunately none of these players are very easy to read. grush's back and forth with me seemed motivated but then what do we do with the rest of his play? Just ignore it? Do we just ignore jay's/xata's lack of contributions? How do we read these guys? You don't seem to want to do anything to help me out either, which is bothersome. You are most definitely town, don't you want to win this game? Why are you guys so passive in this type of situation when you know that a single mislynch will cause us to lose?! | ||
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On January 24 2013 09:34 iamperfection wrote: like bugs i think hapa even said in the obs of that thread that his play that game was designed to be wifom mind traps. Hapa knows that he has to be somewhat of a leader as scum so he almost always comments on everything regardless of him being scum. that just my perspective on the issue. --------------------------------------------------- Tell me bugs are you surprised at all that lazer didn't vote for hapa sooner? you mean like jay and xata? | ||
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On January 24 2013 09:46 iamperfection wrote: hapa gave up. scum wold have easily jumped on him but lazer seemed more cautious in his approach to me. why the doubt from him let me reread. I don't recall doubt, I just recall him being afk. | ||
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Was it actually clear hapa would die at the beginning of the day? He didn't troll until some time into the day. He was afk that entire time. though, unfortunately, so were most of the other players, IIRC it was really only me and you in the thread early on | ||
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He also magically went from considering xata as the third scum over lazer back to lazer. Look: On January 22 2013 08:28 grush57 wrote: Xata, I think your the 3rd scum and not lazermonkey or you don't know what your talking about. Hopeless was actively trying to promote discussion and was the only one active. I realized this so I went on lazermonkey. Those were 2 days apart. I don't know how you think I did it for town cred when lazermonkey could of been lynched too at that point. those were like 3 posts apart, with no intermediate explanation at all. | ||
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It's a common scum tactic to kill off all the vets except the one that is "most wrong" and in this case really there weren't many vets to shoot in the first place. This is because if you have an active on the scumteam they will have a much better chance of staying alive if there are other vets who are also alive. It's how Radfield, myself, Ace, etc. often operate as scum. We shoot the scariest vets, and then leave alive some who we feel we can manipulate or lead off the wrong path, regardless of how right their reads are at any given time. Sometimes we do it to players who are somewhat right, just to throw them off, or to players who are wrong, since we have no fear of them. In my case I basically did a lot of the work for scum. I went along and killed slOosh, and I would have definitely policy lynched Ruuch day 1 if enough votes had come my way. d3 I sided for Hopeless over Hapa. That's two mislynches (and I feel perhaps I should have done more to defend Prom) and a free SK lynch. So if I die and Hapa is left alive then it puts a looot of pressure on him when his main target (Hopeless) flips town. However if we are both alive then some of the pressure is shared by me. The only other player who has attacked me is Xata really, but that was earlier on, and it was perhaps even quite ballsy of him to do that. You say lazer attacked me? I don't recall. | ||
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On January 24 2013 09:58 iamperfection wrote: he actually switched to lazer first hopeless was looking townie to me towards the end. yes, to me as well, but when he switched that was before the key things Hopeless said. At the time he switched Hopeless was simply arguing as he had done before. | ||
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It made me actually question my scumread of him though, because it seemed like he put so much effort into that. | ||
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The upsides to a lazer lynch: he's escaped close lynches already downsides: there are plenty of sort of vague heuristics that we can apply to his play to call him town. Why is jay town? Can we answer that question? What has he done? | ||
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Lazer's still not here, and neither is xata. Let's go back to the simplest explanation I had, and that was in my votecount analysis before my seeding the thread with reads pulled grush out of his inactivity. if grush left his vote on Lazer over Hopeless on d2 it could have meant Lazer would have died. If grush is scum with Lazer this is a really scary thing to do. Certainly if he places his vote and then moves it inexplicably it doesn't matter, since he's planning on squandering it anyway (as scum.) It makes no sense as town to waste your vote like that EVEN IF you have suddenly changed your mind about Hapa/Hopeless. It only makes sense if you intend on pushing your read to a lynch, but grush was not intending that. He was intending to afk, to leave his vote there, to waste it. At that point even if one of us wanted to switch off Hopeless onto lazer, Hopeless still would've died because he reached 4 votes first. (it was 5-3-1 at that point) The only way this makes sense from a town grush perspective is if he thought both Hopeless and Lazer were town, but it's clear by both his votes and his talk that he did not view lazer as town. He's not dumb, he knew the vote was between those 2. It's simply a scum move to waste it by putting it on Hapa, regardless of what we know now about Hapa's alignment. I'm very tempted to simply go with Occam's Razor here and simply say we should lynch grush and then lazer. | ||
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On January 24 2013 10:30 grush57 wrote: WBG, you forgot one thing. STARSENSES! Also you're over thinking the vote I thought hopeless was dead and wanted to show my vote on Hapa. And Lazermonkey is lurking so lynch him? yeah, maybe the simplest explanation in reality is that you weren't thinking. lol. iamp, when you're back: do you think scum could have chosen to hold their roleblock after slOosh claimed that Xata is blue? (i.e. Xata is scum) Right now the two players notably absent from this conversation are Xata and Lazer. Jay was around earlier. | ||
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Suppose thrawn was a blue snipe, it's pretty plausible, and they possibly even avoided shooting me because they might have thought I was protted or something, then holding RB is a potential. My problem with that though is that n2 is when thrawn died and prior to that, scum knew there had to be at least another blue role outside of super, because of the SK flip. Lazer was speculating about it, so either he's scum who simply copied in what his team was talking about or he was trying to figure it out himself. I don't actually see what conclusions he drew from it so it's certainly plausible that he simply copied and pasted what his team was talking about. Normally if you setup-speculate you at least have a reason for doing it, lazer didn't seem to have one. | ||
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The problem is whether we consider Lazer coming close to being lynched being a product of him being scum or just being easily lynchable. zzz :/ It's almost like a coinflip between lazer and jay. | ||
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On January 25 2013 07:38 iamperfection wrote: which would lead to the conclusion of lazer grush scum team. yep, I keep constantly coming back to that too. With jay his votes are weird and his interactions with hapa are kinda weird but other than that...I can't really tell the difference between his play this game and his play in any game where he is town. When he is around he is at least giving forth the feeling that he actually cares about winning and killing scum. | ||
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As scum he'd probably suspect or even know that hapa was going to simply die. The way hapa played it out it seemed as if he had assumed he was dead. I don't think jay as scum (no offense) would have the foresight to ask hapa for his reads. It makes more sense from a town perspective, where jay has had a town read on hapa all game, and is confused at his absence, and wants hapa to give reads simply in the case that he might be town, to get a better read on the situation. I'd expect scum to do what grush did, i.e. insta-bus hapa. | ||
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I'll be completely honest, I saw grush vote at the top of the page and I was like why the fuck is grush voting at night? I thought my post on the previous post caused the new page to come up, meaning I missed the daypost and Lazer's ninjavote. LOL. Anyway, let's kill grush today. ##vote grush57 | ||
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This is just misrepresentation. If you want to make me look bad at least read the thread first. | ||
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He was so sure Hapa was scum well before Hopeless even fucking flipped. I don't understand how as town in your situation you can even consider anyone other than grush the best lynch today. | ||
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Like, in his last post he basically says jay and grush are scum together. However he's questioning jay as if he's not so sure about jay. If he's not sure about jay but is sure about grush then it makes no sense for the vote to be on jay, since a single mislynch loses us the game. | ||
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I actually think I agree with that. Both grush and jay are afk currently, if they don't want to pull their weight on this then they're both the scum. | ||
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It banks on us assuming that grush wouldn't try to push jay as a lynch at this point. It's kind of wifomy; the question is whether scum would try to win today, or whether scum would try to win tomorrow. I think it's easier for them to try to win tomorrow if they bus today. So, perhaps jay + grush is the team after all. | ||
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I'm simply more confident that grush is scum. If grush + jay is the team then it truly doesn't matter who we try to lynch first, but I'd rather play safer. | ||
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I'm not that bad of a scum player that I would encourage my own teammate to suicide. | ||
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Like, going all game by doing absolutely shit all is just really aggravating to me. Hey Xata, are you still around? I want to ask you something. | ||
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Xata I want to know if you think jay + lazer is more likely than jay + grush. I'm pretty much gonna rule out grush + lazer, I think that might be too simple. | ||
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Yeah if jay was truly inactive because of internet problems that says nothing about his activity. All three of these guys were virtually useless the entire game. | ||
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I do now think it's grush + Lazer again, because when I said that, Lazer swapped to you. He's ultra willing to kill you (as is grush) Grush is seemingly not really willing to kill Lazer though, and vice versa too. It seems if they are presented with alternatives, they go for those alternatives. Lazer definitely seems the most opportunistic right now. | ||
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On January 27 2013 03:24 jaybrundage wrote: WBG why did you switch your read one me? What makes Grush and Lazer unlikely? I literally do not have a read on any of you, it might as well be day 1, 1 hour into the game. None of you have done anything all game that is significantly alignment indicative to me. | ||
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I really do not think his death on n2 was mere coincidence. He had at some point stated he had a scumread on grush, and pushed Lazer super hard. He urged us to lynch Lazer over hopeless the next day. And he died, and I really doubt he was a blue snipe; I don't remember him feeling blue at all. Based on this Lazer may be a better option than grush today. Thoughts Xata? | ||
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I'm gonna do that in a few when I'm on a comp | ||
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He looks really bad because of the Hapa/hopeless thing. I just have cold feet I suppose. | ||
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I got a good reaction out of you though | ||
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You also make no effort at figuring out who is scum. At this point I think I'm the only one who has entertained the possibility that you are town, grush, and quite honestly given your play I feel pretty stupid for it. | ||
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On January 27 2013 04:18 grush57 wrote: COMMAN JAY OR LAZER WHO WE GOING FOR WBG rofl is this a ploy to make me think you are too dumb to ask me that when you apparently think I am scum? | ||
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You should be embarrassed if you are town, really. | ||
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everyone keeps saying grush is trollier as scum. These are literally the only 2 reasons I can find for considering grush scum. Neither of them seem that compelling but I really don't understand why any of these 3 players are playing the way they are playing. grush does this every game, Lazer normally isn't this bad, and jay has been afk half the game for apparent RL reasons. Xata do you want to switch to Lazer? I will if you do. | ||
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I'm gonna try and find the game where I caught him as scum and he basically just trolled me the entire time. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344514&user=165092¤tpage=All look at that, THAT is trolling. I am NoSmurfHere btw, look at my filter and comments on grush. He is definitely not trolly here. I don't think he is scum anymore tbh. lazer, let's go. ##unvote ##vote Lazermonkey | ||
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I was tunneled because of his fucking terrible case on me, I literally could not see the town motivation behind that. However, there is one: it's effort. At the time I rationalized it with "too little, too late" but that's the exact same rationalization I used for Hopeless, and he was town too. jay and lazer attacked each other at the beginning of today. You agree that scum, in order to win, would probably bus today, right? They just have to kill one townie to win, and I think they'd feel more comfortable with lynching the townie tomorrow. If jay and lazer are scum together it makes sense that they would attack each other early today to throw us off. | ||
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I just cannot make sense of this given how worthless these 3 have been all game. | ||
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lazer has escaped lynch like 3 times now. | ||
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On January 27 2013 05:55 Xatalos wrote: It's all relative. He has sheeped his scumreads, posted contradicting statements right after each other and done other things that can't be considered not trolling. It's not as senseless in that other game, but it's far worse than anything I've seen before. That's bothering me about Lazer too, but there are other things that make Lazer look more townish (Kush's play, Lazer's positive participation today..). And last moment vote switches rarely end well. you never qualified why kush's play made lazer look better. In fact, I disagreed with you and never got an answer on that. you haven't qualified how grush playing here is "worse" relative to anything, because you haven't provided a game where grush played town in which he was more helpful than this. | ||
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He's not an asset as town, ever. I can't remember a game in which I said, wow, I really wish grush would play like that more often. Lazer IS normally an asset to town and he's done fuck all this game. He only became active when it was clear he was going to die. He's only really focused on defending himself prior to lylo. iunno, maybe I'm confusing myself and running myself in circles but the meta leads me to believe grush might not be scum after all. | ||
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On January 27 2013 05:59 Xatalos wrote: That's because Kush and Lazer share the same alignment....... You need to ask that? grush's play here is worse and more useless than anything I've seen from any other player. It's not as bad as that previous game where he was scum, but it's not like he needs to just go 100% troll once he gets under pressure. It's stupid to assume something like that. no, because I don't think kush's play was townish! | ||
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I've never seen someone drastically change their meta, and this is fucking grush we're talking about. iamp might have agreed but I'm going to go check that newbie game that kush smurfed in. From what I recall his play was somewhat like what he did here. | ||
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On January 27 2013 06:25 jaybrundage wrote: Because your assuming Grush cant change a fucking bit. If he's scum then all he has to do is play useless and get away scot free occam's razor is that he didn't change, because people don't voluntarily change their meta. it's not that easy to change your meta, and I seriously doubt a player like grush would have the foresight to do so. | ||
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have you ever had a preference this game? | ||
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why have you not moved your vote? | ||
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On January 27 2013 07:15 Xatalos wrote: Scum -.- Take this seriously please. Don't you see the difference in Kush's play? I'm not understanding what the difference is. The two games are completely different, this game he was gone before d1 even ended. He has a scum read on Hapa in this game but didn't vote him! He fucking voted MrZ instead. | ||
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fucking hell, what do you not understand about what I just said? I'm ready to just afk cause this game sucks. You're all fucking idiots and I hope I never have to play a game like this again. | ||
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kush's play is a big blank in this game apart from what he said and did regarding hapa, a flipped scum. You can draw conclusions based on lazer's play, literally everyone who died this game called lazer scum, they tried lynching him, we failed 3 times (although the second time we killed the SK so w/e) between grush and jay it's a complete coin flip, there's almost no way I can foresee being able to tell the difference between them. At this point your stubbornness on this matter is making me rethink that there might actually be two town among the fucktards that decided to do nothing all game, and that the RB claim on you is worth shit. | ||
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I'm not seeing that, you're just saying it without even fucking backing it up. | ||
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On January 27 2013 07:26 Xatalos wrote: Are you even reading? I said there's a difference, not playing like before. Sigh, this is just too frustrating. You even admitted that you didn't really read Witchraft by not knowing if Kush was scum or not in there. And now you're mispresenting. What the heck.... YOU ARE NOT SUBSTANTIATING YOUR READ fuck give me two posts that exemplify the difference and I will get my vote off lazer, otherwise I will get you lynched instead. | ||
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I never got the feeling that kush trolled. | ||
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gg scum this is pathetic and really fucking frustrating. If I see anyone of you in a future game and you play like this I will tunnel the fuck out of you all, and I quite honestly don't care what anyone else says, I will get you policy lynched for being so fucking useless | ||
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if the game ends because grush is town then I'll probably just take a break before I flame you all in postgame. ##unvote ##vote grush57 | ||
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I feel like I'm getting trolled right now, wtf? Are you scum? | ||
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jesus christ | ||
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man, the fact that you're calling him a troll is making me think you're actually scum and not town. | ||
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you are scum aren't you? wtf? | ||
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##vote LazerMonkey | ||
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In fact, it was so bad that I was forced to consider that you might be scum. The problem is that with these other 3, they are constantly afk. Even in this situation AT LEAST one of them is town, which is still mindblowing to me. | ||
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I thought deadline was 15:00 PST :O well that makes me feel better | ||
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On January 27 2013 07:55 jaybrundage wrote: I already switched onto LM. And here's a tip be less of a dick If you pull the stick out of your ass maybe you can play better. Also I found out we leaving about 640 so about 20 mins before the dead line. So we have more time then i thought we did. Also why the switch on Xatalos I have a town read on him whats with the sudden switch here's a tip, if you're town don't be such a useless asshole and we won't have situations like this. I've been telling this to you since you first started playing the game and still you haven't changed | ||
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come on wtf | ||
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GET REPLACED | ||
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That's why I'm so bad at this game compared to you. | ||
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On January 27 2013 08:07 Lazermonkey wrote: WBG, can you please make a short summary of shit I have done that makes me scummy and not just ''every person who died said I was scum''. no. | ||
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there's 50 minutes left, I'm leaving. for real this time. Bye. | ||
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I put weight on the roleblocks because I had already assumed that I was wrong. It was a coinflip on the RBs because on the night scum shot thrawn they could not have known there were no other blues. wp jay and xata. I am actually serious about the break, I'm probably gonna focus on school and maybe check the forum now and again, smurf or hydra or whatever but I've lost my interest in the game when we have so many townies who play like this. | ||
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At the current level of play on the forum you can't policy lynch someone for being useless because you'll lose the game with straight mislynches. Apart from being mason what did Zentor do? Ruuch was a completely new player, if we had policy lynched him for doing exactly what scum do, we would've lost a townie. Hopeless only played the game when he was under heavy attack, otherwise he was a lazy bastard the rest of the time. Prom was unfortunately afk right when the wagon swapped on him; not his fault, but one of the best townies in the game gets mislynched d1 because people can't think for themselves. Look at this votecount: Xatalos (1): jaybrundage Promethelax (7): slOosh, thrawn2112, grush57, MrZentor, Xatalos, Ruuch, Supersoft Lazermonkey (1): Promethelax Ruuch (4): Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo, Hapahauli, Hopeless1der You have ONE person from the scumteam who voted Prom, and an SK. Come on, really?! I didn't defend Prom on the basis that I didn't want to defend people who were capable of defending themselves. Yet, Prom got mislynched on the basis of some of the shittiest reasoning I've seen. It's been happening time and again in these minis. I wonder how the game would have been different if we left slOosh alive and if he had gotten shots off, but w/e. It doesn't matter, nothing more to say than town never actually played the game apart from a few players. | ||
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On January 27 2013 09:50 Xatalos wrote: That's sad but yeah, it really makes it harder for town :/ I'll have to improve my towngame considerably now too, since nobody suspected me here in the end and I'm going to be under a lot of scrutiny in the future. I don't know what I'm going to do as scum though, haha... Insta-death? :D your characterization of kush's play as troll really almost made me vote you, but I knew no one was going to vote you with me. There was no chance in hell you were ever getting lynched after the double RB and everyone calling you town d1. There was just really no way. In fact, I find it more likely that I would have died if I attacked you. | ||
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On January 27 2013 09:54 Promethelax wrote: Yeah they did. Bugs: I know I said this in pm land but you saying that I M a good player means a lot to me and as unhappy as this game made me in a lot of ways you and super both made my day by calling my play good. Getting that recognition from good players means a lot to me. Thanks. I'd much rather have 20 of you than 1 of grush on my team I don't think I would have lynched him given that I kept having to remind myself of his meta, but I was just so frazzled and confused at how I could have been wrong about Xata, how both jay and lazer could have done nothing, that I "knew" two of jay + lazer + grush had to be scum. I don't understand what you're supposed to do as a player when no one has confidence in you that you are right, so when you are right, you don't have confidence in yourself that you are right. Do you just say fuck you all, I'm right and then destroy the town until they agree with you? It's like pulling teeth, even in BC's game I had correct early reads but 10 or 15 townies pulling me away from them. | ||
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Sure, I'd love to go into a game and just wreck it but you can't exactly do that when 80% of the town faction basically just does nothing the entire game. Imagine Zentor wasn't a mason, or iamp hadn't replaced in, or whatever. Would we have had a town modkill? Would we have lynched Zentor? Imagine scum and SK shot two different targets n1, let's say myself and super. We had no medic protection, so that would have been two correct shots. Would we even have lynched the SK d2? The game was winnable despite the fact that I would place 7-8/13 of the players in the game strongly in the antitown column, even though only 4/13 were actually part of an antitown faction. Imagine if those players pulled their own weight. If you're going to sit around in a game and do nothing at all then of course your votes are going to be worthless. Lurkers are lynched on policy so that when someone rolls scum they can't do what jay did. Jay played very well to his strengths to be able to get away with what he got away with, but if town was proactive that would never in a million years happen. Jay would have been lynched in a heartbeat. | ||
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one, your vote didn't ever move. If you had doubts like I thought you did, I expected your vote to move. That was relatively minor but it had been nagging at me and I never actually expressed that because I had assumed you were town the entire time. Bad assumption to make on my part. second, the argument for kush being town made no sense in the context of any of the three games, and the fact that you kept telling me to read the game despite the fact that you had no actual evidence to support your meta argument suggested to me you either had confirmation bias or you were bullshitting me. Either some sort of trap (to see whether I was scum) or that you were scum. When I asked you for the explanation and you never gave one, I became more suspicious. When you finally gave those 4 posts and still called kush trollish in this game, I knew there was something wrong. There was no reason to believe kush was trollish this game, and the two posts you cited in support of calling him trollish weren't indicative of anything at all. Truly though, even though I rationalized my read on you with the RBs that was more me trying to come up with some reason as to why I would be wrong about you. I never actually thought you were town from your posts, I only thought you were town because everyone else said so and because there had to be a reason they thought so. I simply assumed it after the n2 roleblock where I thought that scum might not risk it knowing there are more blues. Having seen Hapa claim the RB I should have been more suspicious. I was at some point questioning that but again I didn't think you would waste your RB the entire game (unless you didn't have one and were faking it) | ||
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Sign up when you can read the thread, make quality posts, and make the game enjoyable. Forcing your fellow townies to pull your dead weight for you is quite disrespectful to them, IMO. | ||
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On January 27 2013 11:57 Dandel Ion wrote: btw, I lol'd IRL when Xata tried to justify his meta read with kush's witchcraft filter, but quoted posts that were not from witchcraft, but from the chinese grammar micro mafia. And nobody checked. I didn't check cause I straight up disagreed lol | ||
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On January 27 2013 12:07 Xatalos wrote: Hmm. Could you explain the first part? Wasn't it logical to keep my vote on grush as he was my "strongest scumread"? Wouldn't it have been instead scummy to move my vote to a lesser scumread like Lazer or Jay? It was mostly a feel thing... Granted, I knew his alignment which made me look more convinced than I really should have shown, but it's true that Kush was more diplomatic there (especially in the beginning) and not diplomatic at all in this game (even though he only played in the beginning). I just thought I'd go with that feeling and try to make myself more townie by showing that I "cared" about the lynch. I obviously took it too far, but I think it was better than to sheep. by itself it didn't mean much but as a townie in this type of situation I would expect doubt more than assuredness. grush exemplified that, and I could actually understand that if he were town why he would be saying the things he would be saying. So, even though I was really frustrated at what he had done all game and why basically most players in his situation would have to be lynched for what he did, his play made sense from a town perspective. From a logical perspective (since you asked about what it would have been logical to do) I think it varies slightly from player to player depending on their own biases toward the game and whatnot, but from my own experience, your job as town is to try and make sense of things. There were very many reasons to be confused in this situation and I wasn't convinced you were actually questioning the same things I was. I couldn't pin that on you simply not understanding the situation as town or whether you were scum at first, but as time went on closer to deadline I was becoming more and more suspicious. Partly the reason I just flat out afked an hour before deadline was because I was mad, but also because I knew that if you were scum there was absolutely nothing I could do. There were strong signs you were and I just didn't have the drive, I was mentally exhausted at that point. I was simply broken, I couldn't bring myself to think logically and I needed to stop myself from raging so hard I'd do something much stupider than I had already. I was mostly mad at myself for not trusting my earlier reads, what jay was saying didn't really have that much of an impact (though that was a pretty neat strategy ^^) I'll have to work on that in the future; I've been working on it for several months now and sometimes I can stay calm and sometimes I just can't. I'm not really sure what triggers it, tbh. As for the meta stuff, here's what I'll say about it, with a short prelude and some other explanation, if anyone really cares, you can read it, if not, don't. I'm going to say this now since I don't plan on doing this in the future and so I don't think this will affect my games. Ever since Space Station Mafia (if anyone here remembers that) in April I've been requesting town. I actually requested town a couple times before that too but not as regularly as I have been since. So for the last ~9 months I've been rolling town partly because of luck (some hosts have denied my requests) and mostly because I've been requesting it. I wanted to get better at scumhunting, and I think I am better at using meta now than I was before. I think it's a crucial tool and I am very very confident that players like Foolishness, sandro, Radfield, syllo, etc. would agree with me that correct use of meta often helps you catch mafia and separate townies from mafia much more quickly than otherwise. I had a short conversation with GMarshal once during one of my earliest games, maybe my third or fourth here on the forum, something like a year and a half or more ago. I asked him why he was smurfing, as I had seen him smurf in several games at the time, and IIRC he asked me if I could guess. I said well, if you're smurfing then no one really knows who you are and they can't use past games to determine your alignment. He said exactly, meta matters. We had some sort of conversation about how meta is used or misused and whatnot (I don't really remember the details) but that phrase stuck with me ever since; meta matters. Well, with kush here I think our conversation about his meta exemplified that you, for whatever reason, did not understand why the situation did not make kush (and by extension Lazer) town or scum based on meta alone. I ignored meta with regards to kush (I could have used it more specifically with Lazer but I wasn't feeling comfortable with his meta tbh) because I did not feel like the context of this game allowed for an adequate comparison between this game and Witchcraft. It didn't even provide an adequate comparison between this game and the newbie game, though it was a slightly better comparison. It was still bad, but I thought it might make kush slightly more likely to be scum. My read on kush/Lazer wasn't based on meta though, and that's the problem. When you tried arguing that kush was trolling in this game and he wasn't in Witchcraft I sought your interpretation based on specifics, because simply making an assertion doesn't mean you've properly read into someone's past game history. When I didn't receive specifics I became suspicious. Either you were blinded, or you were scum. I became very suspicious when I saw you grasp at straws with those 4 posts you quoted, because I felt any reasonable townie would not characterized the two posts you quoted as trollish. I have tried "metaing" people as scum and it can work pretty effectively, though in this case you didn't really have any consequence to the flip because there wouldn't be one. If you want an example, I believe in Mini X I might have metaed a couple people, where I was scum. I think I did in Couple's Therapy as well (against chaoser). Obviously these are fake and you can find holes in them but if you're looking for a convincing way to "look town" I think you can find those types of plays in the scum games of players like BC and Ace. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2013 14:08 jaybrundage wrote: @WBG I would like your opinion on my play as well as anyone else that would care to comment. Imma start checking out the obs QT I feel like i couldnt accurately convey how i wanted to play with my limited once a day at mcdonalds internet. Also WBG also while it was fun to insult you and such. I didn't mean anything by it. I could see you off your game and i saw the opportunity to get you @Keirathi I think this one was much better. Usually i just end up getting mislynched lol. I think your play was good but it will only work once I think lol :p I have no problem with what strategy you used, I think it's legitimate and it doesn't break any rules, so it's all good. Whatever happens in-game stays in-game, IMO. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2013 22:19 GMarshal wrote: Welcome to being good. Now even when you are the greenest green everyone will ask you if you are mafia. :-P just smurf bro | ||
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