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On January 23 2013 07:07 Xatalos wrote:
WBG, do you think that grush is town if Hapa flips scum? It feels pretty drastic to start heavily bussing Hapa during D3 (when he wasn't yet suspected by almost anyone).
wait, when was that?
I don't remember grush attacking him like that. I remember him switching off Hopeless and onto Hapa. There is nothing particularly alignment indicative about anything grush has done.
If grush is not scum, then I take it you argue that Lazer + jay are?
Is Lazer 100% scum then?
I don't see grush not being scum, tbh.
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It makes perfect sense for scum to try to lynch me on the basis that "I should have been shot" at this point.
Anyone who has read the game can tell you that I am one of the few players interested in actually killing scum. I already killed one.
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grush is too bad to have a case. He doesn't have one other than "derp wbg is still alive" which is fucking retarded.
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rofl I can't believe I even tried to deliberate while he was gone.
Well, I got fooled pretty hard d1 and 2 :p
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once Hapa flips I think we should just kill grush. At this point Hapa is 99.5% scum, and 100% douchebag 
+ Show Spoiler +jk Hapa, you played well despite being red, I will hate you for it but it's not personal :p
I can see good reasons for lynching Lazer too, the narrow escapes being the best. Where is iamp?
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right so the problem is that if we consider picking between lazer and grush, we have to then consider if one of them is not scum.
If one of them is not scum then who is?
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I think the votecounts and Hapa's interactions with other players solve the game.
It pretty much has to be lazer + grush I think.
Let's start with the votecounts, starting with day 1.
Day 1:
Xatalos (1): jaybrundage
Promethelax (7): slOosh, thrawn2112, grush57, MrZentor, Xatalos, Ruuch, Supersoft
Lazermonkey (1): Promethelax
Ruuch (4): Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo, Hapahauli, Hopeless1der
Hapa votes Ruuch, which makes it almost impossible for Ruuch to be mafia. It was a latecycle switch and I don't see a scum hapa being willing to switch on his own teammate, since mafia cannot accurately predict what town will do in that type of a situation. Lazer also happened to vote Ruuch. (and yes, my vote is there too)
This makes iamp surely town.
d2 votecount doesn't really mean much, since from a mafia perspective the lynch was between two townies.
d3 we have Hopeless dying and here's where things are interesting.
Hopeless1der (5): Hapahauli, Xatalos, jaybrundage, Lazermonkey, wherebugsgo
Lazermonkey (3): Hopeless1der, MrZentor, iamperfection
Hapahauli (1): grush57
There are three townies on lazer. That means the three scum have to be between grush and everyone on Hopeless.
Grush at some point was on Hopeless, but didn't like the hopeless lynch. Grush is not stupid-he trolls, but he is smart enough to know that voting Hapa randomly in the middle of a divided wagon like that is not going to get hapa lynched. He wasted his vote here. If he had simply placed it on Lazer then lazer would have had 4 votes, meaning that any one townie who switched off Hopeless onto lazer would've killed lazer over hopeless.
Also, it fits with this really weird tendency by scum to stay off the same wagon. I've only once ever seen all the mafia on a team place their votes on the same wagon. It almost never happens, they are generally aware enough to not make that kind of trend pop out even though ultimately no one looks for it that much.
Now, do one thing:
take the word "grush", and open Hapa's filter in a new tab. ctrl-f, paste.
Notice the difference between how Hapa talks about grush and how he talks about pretty much every other player in the game. Notice how he questions people about grush but almost never talks to him, makes a read of his own about him, or in general really takes a stance either way about him.
Note how when he is asked to make reads, he makes a singular, relatively weak post about grush, and then, unlike all of the other players he talks about, chooses to quote himself in order to reiterate what he said previously.
Scum HATE to make opinions on players, especially their own teammates. They'll do a lot of different things to avoid talking about scumbuddies, and avoidance is the keyword when it comes to hapa regarding grush. He also asks several times, with other players, notably myself and Hopeless, why we think grush is scum. He didn't seem to care all that much about us calling other players scum, so why did he care so much about grush despite not really providing a read of his own there?
This is reinforced in the other direction by the incredibly strange stance change that grush took. He was voting Hopeless and then suddenly randomly he simply dumped his vote onto Hapa. It made no sense except as a distance attempt, knowing that Hopeless would flip town.
The second thing I'd like you all to do while the Hapa filter is open, is ctrl-f kush. At some point you will run into the phrase "kush is being kush". This phrase is only used twice by Hapa. Once, saying "grush is being grush", and once, "kush is being kush." Coincidence? I don't think so. Remember, kush got replaced by lazer. I was suspicious of kush d1.
Now, look again at how Hapa interacts with kush. He calls him useless, says he's being scummy, and in general gives vibes that he actually thinks kush is scum when he interacts directly with kush. However, with other players, he refuses to put a read on kush! He refuses to say either way what he thinks of kush.
The last thing to do here is to search lazer, obviously. This is better, but ONLY because Lazer was a replacement. Hapa uses the replacement as an excuse to push off his read of lazer, and he talks about lazer the most but really doesn't ultimately say anything about his alignment if you read carefully.
Sorry for the shitty formatting but I wanted to get this all out before I went to bed.
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No, but I'll check it out. Also I never said he simply avoided talking about them, I think he simply avoided providing reads. He mentions every player in the game and at no point does he seem like he's specifically avoiding anyone in particular. That's how good scum play-often they still avoid incriminating their buddies when it isn't necessary, but at the very least they are able to charade well enough that their lack of reads on these players goes relatively unnoticed.
That's why rereading is really key and if none of you are currently doing that, then you need to. Hapa dying and flipping scum is a treasure trove of information precisely because he was so active. He would have been forced to make opinions on his teammates.
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I went and read Hapa's filter from Mario Mini, and quite honestly iamp I can confidently say you are completely wrong.
He mentions Crossfire maybe...3 times, and all he does is ask people if he's a smurf or what, and then doesn't try to further a read on him. Then, he makes an offhand remark later in the game about something Crossfire did or said. Nothing there.
He doesn't mention his second teammate at all from what I could tell. His biggest concerns were debears, talking to marv, Z-Boson, and some others (yes, he was only alive d1, but still). I was curious to see who his other teammate was, so I went into the endgame and saw djodref. Having read Hapa's filter and small bits and pieces in context of his posts I would never have even guessed djo was playing that game.
I'm pretty confident in light of this that grush is hapa's scumbuddy.
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On January 24 2013 05:29 grush57 wrote:
I suggest we lynch either between me or wbg tommorow because if I get lynched we won't waste time lynching lazer than me causing town loss, plus if we lynch wbg then lazer will probably surrender.
soooo if you are town what interest do you have in lynching me before lazer?
You just basically said lazer is 100% scum, but that you'd rather lynch between us over him. If you were actually town and actually believed I was scum with Lazer then you'd know that lynching between me and you is 50/50, whereas lynching Lazer is 100%.
Nice scumclaim.
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so you're saying you'd be willing to vote with me to kill lazer?
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nope, actually it wouldn't.
Town loses if we lynch wrong tomorrow.
it's what, 4v3 now? hapa scum, townie dies = 3v2 tomorrow. Town LOSES if we lynch wrong.
This is a fucking scum claim by grush.
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so you're saying you know who scum will shoot, too?
LOL
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there's a big difference if, for example, jay dies over iamp. that would be really fucking strange.
also, no matter what you say, you cannot call me scum for simply being alive, that's ignoring literally everything else I've done this game. You're not this dumb as town. Quite frankly, I would be so incredibly mad if you flipped town this game that I'd probably quit for a while. I'm not even kidding, because if you are town your play will literally be the worst I have ever seen on this forum.
As town, you have no interest in considering other possibilities? I don't find that likely. You have simply suddenly jumped to the conclusion that I am scum, you've basically ignored all other possibilities, and you certainly don't seem to have been interested in actually figuring out the game. If you are town that is quite honestly pathetic. If you are town why wouldn't you have asked yourself if Xata or jay could be scum?
Lastly, and this is the important part: if you are town, and you really thought it would come down to me and you, you'd support lynching lazer first. That gives town MUCH more time to discuss and actually deliberate. Those who want to end the game as quickly as possible before town can think about it are scum. Scum don't want to drag the game out, it's too painful and hard. You're under scrutiny for much longer. I'd much rather take you to 2v1 and then argue it out, and I can guarantee you that you will lose. Not willing to do that? Too lazy? You're not town.
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THAT's your response?
rofl, you really didn't think this through, did you?
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says I contradicted myself, didn't show any contradictions. He says because I said I might be shot and then because I said I don't get shot that's a contradiction. The fuck?
My posts with Hapa: I call him stupid because I had a town read on him at the time!
My posts asking super about reads, I was wrong. Wrong = scum? Since when?
Also, grush says I wanted an easy mislynch on Ruuch. If I was looking for an easy mislynch then why wouldn't i have simply voted Prom?
He also misrepresents my opinion about Prom in that post. I said I had a bad feeling about Prom when he didn't defend himself because I had a townread on Prom. When a townread disappears. you doubt that townread. grush says I didn't defend him and that's scummy. The fuck? I stated that because Prom's disappearance made me doubt my townread on him. Nothing weird there, it's just grush grasping at straws.
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On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:
there's a big difference if, for example, jay dies over iamp. that would be really fucking strange.
also, no matter what you say, you cannot call me scum for simply being alive, that's ignoring literally everything else I've done this game. You're not this dumb as town. Quite frankly, I would be so incredibly mad if you flipped town this game that I'd probably quit for a while. I'm not even kidding, because if you are town your play will literally be the worst I have ever seen on this forum.
As town, you have no interest in considering other possibilities? I don't find that likely. You have simply suddenly jumped to the conclusion that I am scum, you've basically ignored all other possibilities, and you certainly don't seem to have been interested in actually figuring out the game. If you are town that is quite honestly pathetic. If you are town why wouldn't you have asked yourself if Xata or jay could be scum?
Lastly, and this is the important part: if you are town, and you really thought it would come down to me and you, you'd support lynching lazer first. That gives town MUCH more time to discuss and actually deliberate. Those who want to end the game as quickly as possible before town can think about it are scum. Scum don't want to drag the game out, it's too painful and hard. You're under scrutiny for much longer. I'd much rather take you to 2v1 and then argue it out, and I can guarantee you that you will lose. Not willing to do that? Too lazy? You're not town. Also to respond to your case becasue I pulled a wbg with my earlier respone... A strong town vet surviving to lylo is suspicious. Hell people policy lynch marv just if he survives.
I survived almost to lylo in the very last mini I played. In fact, in the last 2-3 minis I've played scum have avoided shooting me over shooting other players. It's simply because I have been wrong.
This is not any different this game, I was right about slOosh but slOosh wasn't on the scumteam. I was wrong about Hapa and he was.
Not alignment indicative.
On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote:
Yea there is a possibility of Jay being scum. Hey grush make a case or if you don't I'll lynch you! But I won't do anything myself........
Yet you never considered it. You never deliberated it, you never gave a reason for considering jay town. You've basically just assumed it and you've done fuck all throughout the game until now when you are in danger of dying.
And what you're saying makes no sense. Me calling you out on your lack of transparency has nothing to do with you not making a case on jay, and quite frankly your misinterpretation is what makes this hilarious. As scum you think all you need to do is make cases to survive. rofl.
Part of the job as town in lylo is to examine all possibilities and you've ignored 4 out of 6 of them.
On January 24 2013 06:45 grush57 wrote:
Yea I know me wanting to end the game quick sounds extremely scummy, but I was honest that I just wanted to save time. Going through your filter has changed my mind tho, I can lynch LZ first :D.
going through my filter has changed your mind? Doesn't sound like it. This is a lie.
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On January 24 2013 06:48 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 06:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
says I contradicted myself, didn't show any contradictions. He says because I said I might be shot and then because I said I don't get shot that's a contradiction. The fuck?
My posts with Hapa: I call him stupid because I had a town read on him at the time!
My posts asking super about reads, I was wrong. Wrong = scum? Since when?
Also, grush says I wanted an easy mislynch on Ruuch. If I was looking for an easy mislynch then why wouldn't i have simply voted Prom?
He also misrepresents my opinion about Prom in that post. I said I had a bad feeling about Prom when he didn't defend himself because I had a townread on Prom. When a townread disappears. you doubt that townread. grush says I didn't defend him and that's scummy. The fuck? I stated that because Prom's disappearance made me doubt my townread on him. Nothing weird there, it's just grush grasping at straws. What would be easier to explain someone voting at the last minute or prome.
???
this is not even a complete question
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On January 24 2013 06:52 grush57 wrote:
Alright compeltely throwout what I said about jay and reading filters because I'm in danger of dying.
##Unvote
##Vote: WhereBugsGo
Hapa has declared scum!
GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET WBG
rofl.
that's what I thought.
Scum want to win ASAP. Honestly if my alignment was reversed with Hapa's I would have gone for broke and tried to get a townie lynched today, but I'm greedy like that and my #1 interest as scum is to end the game without a single scum dying. It's hard to win after one of you has flipped when you are playing an active game, because there are connections and problems everywhere, even if you led the game for a long time before that. Also, when your teammates are more inactive than you, they become demoralized after the most active guy dies and will often give up.
grush wants to end the game ASAP. He doesn't want to read filters, he doesn't want to figure out the game, and because of all of these things he doesn't want town to win. He also accuses me of contradicting myself when I haven't done so at all, but he contradicts himself here. He says screw what I said about the filters and jay (and I suspected it was a lie to begin with-he claimed he would support me in killing lazer because of reading my filter but it didn't sound like he read it at all, just went back and cherry picked everything he could, as lazily as he could)
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EPT
