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Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 03:43 GMT
#1354
Also, I'm really not getting any scummy vibes from Jay. Other than Adam's vote on him, there's some stuff like deliberately antagonizing Palmar (YOUR vs. YOU'RE), which seems fairly townie in context. Palmar didn't like Jay's posting, and Jay turns around and starts poking Palmar with a stick. I think scum would have more of an inclination to hide and appear diplomatic rather than antagonizing your accuser.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 08:36 GMT
#1374
On December 13 2012 13:22 jaybrundage wrote:
EBWODP

##Voting Clarity

Will get a case when I have more time.


Jay. If you're actually voting the claimed vigi, you're an idiot.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 08:37 GMT
#1375
@ Djo

What happened to your Vivax case?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 08:52 GMT
#1376
Also Djo, can you explain your thought process behind this?
On December 12 2012 08:06 Djodref wrote:
Anyone up for a counter bandwagon on jay ?

##Unvote
##Vote Jay

On December 12 2012 08:43 Djodref wrote:
I'll switch back my vote to Tunkeg if you guys change your mind last minute for the time I'm taking a shower !

##Unvote
##Vote Tunkeg

On December 12 2012 09:23 Djodref wrote:
And, seriously guys, you still prefer to lynch Adam to jay after Adam's latest post ?
Counter wagon ! GO GO GO !

##Unvote
##Vote jay
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:02 GMT
#1379
@ Hapahauli

Why didn't you comment on WBG's confession just before the flip ?


I thought WBG claimed scum, and I really didn't want any part of the conversation until the flip. I try to avoid kicking players while they're down - it's something I've done in the past, and I regret it alot.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:03 GMT
#1380
Also, that's quite a nice post/angle of analysis there Djo. Good to see you vindicate my town read on you =)
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:04 GMT
#1382
VE you're a goddamn idiot if you actually think that's a fakeclaim.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:07 GMT
#1384
Dear christ. I posted on it earlier:

On December 13 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote:
Clarity's vigi claim makes no sense from a scum perspective.
1) If he's the mafia vigi, he risks a counter-claim from a possible town vigi
2) Why would mafia vigi bugs, when they could waste a lynch on him today?

Pretty sure Clarity's town.


If Clarity made a last-minute claim to save his skin, MAAAAAYBE I could get behind you. But the fact is, he claimed in a situation where he had everything to lose and nothing to gain.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:18 GMT
#1388
On December 13 2012 18:13 VisceraEyes wrote:
I missed that in the hullabaloo.

1) That means nothing because this is a semi-closed setup. There could be more than one town vigi, so the counterclaim thing is not relevant. There's little risk in a scum Vigi claiming a shot he ACTUALLY took because we have no way of knowing if they're scum or town.

2) Why would Mafia vigi one of the stronger town players? So he can't defend himself and avoid the lynch? Maybe turn it around on one of them? Scum removing a vet from the game in a NON LYNCH situation is actually extremely strong.


1) If you think there are likely two vigi's, good for you. However I really doubt that's the case, and gambling on there possibly being 2 vigis in the setup is not something mafia want to do, much less when Clarity did so.

2) So what exactly makes the alternative not likely - that a town Clarity shot the top scumread of virtually everyone in the thread. Shooting WBG was a fine play given the suspicions of the thread.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:20 GMT
#1390
On December 13 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2012 12:43 Hapahauli wrote:
Also, I'm really not getting any scummy vibes from Jay. Other than Adam's vote on him, there's some stuff like deliberately antagonizing Palmar (YOUR vs. YOU'RE), which seems fairly townie in context. Palmar didn't like Jay's posting, and Jay turns around and starts poking Palmar with a stick. I think scum would have more of an inclination to hide and appear diplomatic rather than antagonizing your accuser.


When did this happen?


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&currentpage=25#489
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:29 GMT
#1394
On December 13 2012 18:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
1) I don't know if it's likely, I'm saying it's possible and therefor terrible play for any vig to counterclaim. It's not about Clarity "gambling" on there being two vigs, it's about the scumteam "knowing" that it's possible and relying on that to keep a vig from counterclaiming.

2) The fact that it was Bugs makes the alternative not likely. I think it's much more likely that scum Clarity shot strong townie Bugs at an opportune time for scum to make a play like that than a town Clarity shooting a veteran scumhunter without giving him a chance to defend himself and find us scum. And regardless of whether you believe Clarity is scum or town, that makes the scum KP debears yes? You're telling me that you believe that scum shot at debears and ONLY debears?


1) Why would it be bad play for a vig to counterclaim here? Closed setup or not, I really doubt there's more than 1 in a 16 man setup.

2) It doesn't matter who the guy is - the top scumread of the thread got shot on N1. How is that not completely normal? Plus Clarity's a new guy - it's not like he knows who Bugs is. Hell even I've never played in a game with Bugs.

As for the debears thing, I've given it some thought. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:
a) scum only shot at debears. I find this unlikely, given the risk of leaving a hypothetically town marv+Palmar alive
b) scum vigi'd debears and shot at marv. This is what I'm thinking happened.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:33 GMT
#1398
On December 13 2012 18:32 Bluelightz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2012 18:29 Hapahauli wrote:
On December 13 2012 18:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
1) I don't know if it's likely, I'm saying it's possible and therefor terrible play for any vig to counterclaim. It's not about Clarity "gambling" on there being two vigs, it's about the scumteam "knowing" that it's possible and relying on that to keep a vig from counterclaiming.

2) The fact that it was Bugs makes the alternative not likely. I think it's much more likely that scum Clarity shot strong townie Bugs at an opportune time for scum to make a play like that than a town Clarity shooting a veteran scumhunter without giving him a chance to defend himself and find us scum. And regardless of whether you believe Clarity is scum or town, that makes the scum KP debears yes? You're telling me that you believe that scum shot at debears and ONLY debears?


1) Why would it be bad play for a vig to counterclaim here? Closed setup or not, I really doubt there's more than 1 in a 16 man setup.

2) It doesn't matter who the guy is - the top scumread of the thread got shot on N1. How is that not completely normal? Plus Clarity's a new guy - it's not like he knows who Bugs is. Hell even I've never played in a game with Bugs.

As for the debears thing, I've given it some thought. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:
a) scum only shot at debears. I find this unlikely, given the risk of leaving a hypothetically town marv+Palmar alive
b) scum vigi'd debears and shot at marv. This is what I'm thinking happened.


As for your chance B, who would be that scum vigi?


How the hell should I know? That's just the best way I can make sense of the night actions.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:45 GMT
#1406
On December 13 2012 18:43 Palmar wrote:
oh right, I thought you meant he was trolling me about misusing the words, which I never do.

I want to add this thought about Tunkeg's martyr post. Remember that if we assume he is scum, he knows bugs and I are both town, so what are the implications if I fail to stop the wagon that at the time was on him and swing it over to Adam? If he's scum he leaves a lot of things to be considered if he flips, and "opinions" on two loud town players between Bugs and I.

My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue.

I still feel the most reasonable explanation is that Tunkeg isn't scum.



In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota"
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 09:47 GMT
#1407
Well anywho I'm off to bed. Bluelightz + Tunkeg, y'all have some votes on you atm. Try to reply to what you can.

G'nite
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 21:05 GMT
#1503
Meh, I'm not feelin a VE lynch right now. His thing with clarity reads more as a misguided tunnel than something malicious.

Bluelightz on the other hand is ripe for some lynching. Lynch-bait or not, he's one of the few players in the game that hasn't given me any reason to think he's town. Tunkeg being the other, but I rather like that last longer post of his.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 21:09 GMT
#1504
On December 14 2012 02:11 Z-BosoN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2012 18:45 Hapahauli wrote:
On December 13 2012 18:43 Palmar wrote:
oh right, I thought you meant he was trolling me about misusing the words, which I never do.

I want to add this thought about Tunkeg's martyr post. Remember that if we assume he is scum, he knows bugs and I are both town, so what are the implications if I fail to stop the wagon that at the time was on him and swing it over to Adam? If he's scum he leaves a lot of things to be considered if he flips, and "opinions" on two loud town players between Bugs and I.

My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue.

I still feel the most reasonable explanation is that Tunkeg isn't scum.



In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota"


And you were saying his concise read on WBG made him look worse, that he'd be looking much better if he had a more flimsy stance:

Show nested quote +
On December 13 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote:
On December 13 2012 12:01 Z-BosoN wrote:
On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote:
On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:
On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip.


Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped?


Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me.


So if he had given wbg a town read, would he have been looking better atm?


I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads."


Palmar is saying the exact opposite:

Show nested quote +
My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue.


Which is the "sense" you agree with Palmar about about?


The "sense" is just Palmar's perspective on things that I really hadn't thought about too much.

That being said, sleeping on things, I pretty heavily disagree with Palmar. Scum can very easily take strong stances on things since they know what's up. It's not like they were original opinions either - most of it was just a re-hash of everything that's been said in the thread.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 13 2012 21:24 GMT
#1505
@ Tunkeg

Why do you find people going after Clarity a scumtell? It's certainly proves stupidity, but not scumminess.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 14 2012 00:27 GMT
#1536
I'm not liking Tunkeg too much at the moment. Not sure if I could lynch him over Bluelightz, but he just seems way too sure of himself in his filter.



Palmar is confirmed town! Like Palmar is a town read, but confirmed town is a huuuuuge stretch.
Palmar is basicly confirmed town for me at this point. If he was scum he could have easily pushed me with the rest of you. As he stopped reading before he got to me in his video. If he did in fact read his PM after that video, and had flipped scum I think he would be going with the flow, and going for me. If there is a JK in this game he should definately jail Palmar to protect him from harm. He is the town that scum will be gunning for, 100%.


100% sure that WBG is scum, no doubts!
On December 12 2012 16:02 Tunkeg wrote:
Boom! That was a great lynch! Now WBG is 100% scum. Look how hard he was pushing for me after Adam got in trouble. Look how he kept including Adam as his 2nd read, while not ever pointing out why he thought he was scummy. He did this because Adam was very obv scummy, and wbg not mentioning adam as scummy would look really bad for him. Also look at adams read post how hard he tried to distance himself from wbg, "agreeing" with my read on him. Also look at how wbg have presented his arguements (word twisting and misrepresenting facts) and his silly "80% Palmar is scum".

WBG must be lynched day 2. Palmar got to be protected if we got a jailkeeper. Also if we got a cop look into someone trying to push my case, voting me and/or push/vote some other case after Adam got mentioned in Palmars video.


Is sure that scum doesn't have a vigi... WHAT?
On December 13 2012 18:36 Tunkeg wrote:
So WBG was a jk this game. So my entire scum or stupid analysis on him was wrong. He turened out to be just stupid.

Also anyone doubting clarity's claim is stupid. There is no reason at all for a scum clarity to claim such a hit. He had alot of towncred allready, a missed hit like this would only put him back on the radar.

Scum don't have a vig, as they would have taken out Palmar with it, doublestacking. Or perhaps some other vet they view as dangerous. With no vig they went for the best safe option, taking out someone who by pushing Adam early was looking very townie, and who wasn't likely to be protected.


a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 14 2012 02:30 GMT
#1555
@ Marv

Now there's Djodref. There are more things I find scummy in his filter than BL, but there's also some things I find townier too.


I know you haven't finished your stuff on Djo, but this comment I think is pretty telling of his play. Players like this often are just attention whoring townies rather than scum.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 14 2012 02:34 GMT
#1557
On December 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2012 11:19 jaybrundage wrote:
Annnnyway, Now that I expressed my random thoughts on Clarity and Palmar.

Anyone still down for a Djodref lynch?

##Unvote
##Vote Djodref


definitely but i'm undecided between him and boson


Mind elaborating on the Boson read a bit?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
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