EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXX
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FoS Djodref!!! | ||
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On November 03 2012 01:19 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Just wanted to let you know that PMing is allowed in this game Clarity, so feel free to send me some at your hearts desire once the game begins. /trollpost  Don't make fun of my dissabilities! | ||
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edit: I forgot MLG starts today so I'll probably be around if the game starts tonight actually. | ||
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I will be here and active before every lynch. | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:15 debears wrote: Clarity and cheese Would you consider lynching a lurker over an ok scumread for d1? Considering the setup, a lurker lynch d1 might possibly be better for us since we can get reads on everyone else later in a smaller game I'd certainly consider it, but I think lurkers are super harmful in this format. I think there's a much smaller chance of there being lurkers this game though. Can't pass up a good read though, but if you want to lynch a super active person because of an "ok" read I'd be hard pressed if there is a super-lurker. | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:36 Obzy wrote: Right - no; I agree with that - I guess I was caught on the wording. Describing it as a policy lynch made it sound like there wouldn't be much discussion on the matter which sounded counterproductive. The idea is we get this topic out of the way ASAP so we don't get bogged down discussing policy for all of day 1. | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:35 debears wrote: Anyways what's your guys thoughts on alsns post? I thought the "you haven't lynched a 100 people, liar!" was funny. Otherwise a pretty null read. Did I miss something? What did you see? + Show Spoiler [Alsn's post for reference] + On November 03 2012 10:20 Alsn wrote: I like it how you say 99% of the time, yet I know from reading XXIX's scum QT that you were away on purpose for the last lynch. I also bet you haven't yet participated in anywhere near 100 lynches, so technically that's a lie. Although, I probably should have paid more attention to what you actually voted for that game as opposed to whether or not you were actually around so I'll let that one slide. I'm Alsn, I'll be around for flip-time generally, but they happen at 1 am local time so don't expect me to stick around for too long afterwards. Prior games include XXV(VT), XXVIII(VT) and XXIX also as VT. And yea, if given the choice between weak scum reads and hardcore lurkers, I'll hunt down and feed the hardcore lurker gone off cheesecake first chance I get. That being said, I'm off to lurk(also known as sleep, for those of you concerned with base things such as human metabolic function). | ||
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Howso? | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Mafia usually wear hats. He's so adamant that he most certainly does NOT wear a hat. Therefore, scumtell. I thought you were gonna come out with some kind of awesome flavor theory. Dissapointed. On others I'd point your joking attitude out as scum but I mean, you're Mr Cheesecake. Anyone stand out to you so far? | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:18 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I didn't joke at all last game, apart from a few trollish posts at the end hehe. I just think Debears is playing his scumgame from the last game right to the T. Aggressive opener, meaningless FoS. He also explicitly mentions that he's town and is being called a liar (someone saying you lied =/= being a liar). It's cause I read your Mafia QT I guess, you're right, in the thread itself you were super serious. So why the change of tone? XXIX is my first mafia game on TL, so it's my first encounter with debears. Maybe debears opens like this in every mafia game regardless? I'll go dig around. Feel free to comment debears. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:27 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity What other policies did you have in mind ? None, that's my point. But there are a lot of policies that I've seen people try to push day 1, like lynch all liars. I don't think it's the way to go. | ||
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I don't really know what's left to discuss though.... | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:07 debears wrote: You have to be kidding me. Cheese jokes a lot. Did you not read the scum qt from last game? The motivation from both perspectives is to have fun, especially early d1 when there's nothing to talk about. "Influence your read on debears". Really? Its early day 1. You all have plenty of time to read me.. ill have a big filter most likely. That's bullshit. Scummy bullshit Please expand on the bolded part of your post I quoted debears. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:12 debears wrote: D1 starts out with nothing to actually talk about. That's why policy is a starter in newbies. Everything starts out of complete nothingness in terms of accusations Okay, but you just meant early D1 right, not the entirety of it? It seems rather odd to go: "Yeah we should just joke around for now" On November 03 2012 12:13 debears wrote: Rad cheeses joking is a null tell. Check the scum qt from last game. Its his personality He kept it to the QT though, he was serious in the thread, as he pointed out. We shouldn't try to meta read someone with a sample size of 1, but he is acting quite different than last game, and he was scum in that. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:34 Obzy wrote: I don't think that getting a read off of whether or not Cheese has a joking tone or not really means anything at all. At least, the fact that he's aware of it means that he could manipulate it either way. I agree, this isn't much better than making a Djodref smiley case. I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese Might become useful later. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:53 debears wrote: Besides stating the obvious, do you agree with me or djo on this? I agree with you. The joking is a null tell and we should note it and move on, that was the point of my post. I'm actually more interested why djo talking about the fact that it's a plurality lynch, he never actually talked about it, he just mentioned it. What of it, Djodref? | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:22 debears wrote: seriously.....why are we having to explain this? 1) Scumhunt 2) Vote for your top scumread 3) When the voting comes down to 2 candidates and lynch is near, pick one of two said candidates and give reasoning why you're voting them Is that clear enough for all of you to understand? Please stop talking about policy Because he mentioned it here: On November 03 2012 12:13 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese Ok, you had motivations for doing this joke but it doesn't really help town while it could be done with mafia motivation. And, at least, I'm trying to dig something. Would you prefer me to discuss how we should use plurality lynch ? Which got me curious what he had to say on the subject. Turns out the answer is nothing new. Which begs the question: Why did he mention it in the first place? | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:28 debears wrote: Clarity, I think it was meant to be read as more of this: Do you want me to push something and try to get the thread going, or do you want me to talk about useless policy? Would you agree with that? I.... didn't even consider that. Yes, that actually makes much more sense. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:31 debears wrote: Very well Clarity, anything else that you find jumps out weird so far? Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver. I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? | ||
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Think I'm gonna go to bed soon, but I wanna finish watching MLG... | ||
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On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote: @Cheese >:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: I don't think it's directed at you specifically, but it's interesting that you think it is. The reason Cheese said to not drop the newbie card is because it's not town behavior. When you are town you want people to believe you, if you come out of the gate saying you're awful and no one should listen to you then that's anti-town. It also prevents scum from using "omg sorry I'm just new!", the less excuses scum have available the better for town. My reads at this point in time: Obzy: Leaning slightly town. He hasn't quite come out of his shell yet but he seems genuinly interested in discussion and progressing. @ Obzy Do you think you can get over this "I'm new" thing and give us the best reads you've got? Instead of posting something that's obvious to everyone perhaps post something that stands out to you. _ Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX. @ Rad Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend? _ Alsn: Leaning slightly scum, very little info about him though. He opened super aggressive this game, which is the opposite of how he played in the majority of XXIX. Perhaps the only reason he snapped at debears so hard is because debears said On November 03 2012 10:04 debears wrote: If I'm not here for lynch, its irl conflicts 99% of the time. Don't pull an Alsn @ Alsn Why the change in behavior from last game? What do you think of debears at this point? _ Mr Cheesecake: Null. He went SUPER defensive when he was called out about making a ton of jokes, but that discussion got blown way out of proportion. The fact that he's acting more like the way he was in mafia QT XXIX than in the actual XXIX thread is indicative of town. @ Cheese You did have some jokes in the XXIX thread. Can you tell us if these were jokes for the sake of jokes or if you used them to push a scum agenda? An argument can be made for both. _ Djodref: Leaning slightly scum, He was obsessed with policy. Everyone was ready to move on but he kept mentioning it over and over. He's also the person that blew up the whole *Cheese's scum joke* thing, which bogged us down for a couple of pages. @ Djodref If you had to lynch someone right now, would it be da0ud or someone else? _ Debears: Null. Regardless of if he's scum or town, he is getting the ball rolling which is good for us. Problem is... that was what he was doing in XXIX as well and he was scum in that. Older games suggest this is simply his meta so there is no read to be made about his opening. What I'm curious about is if he's going to pull a vanishing act in D2 / D3 again. @ Debears What's your ready on Obzy? _ Sylverfire: Null. Only have 3 real posts to read him on. He opened really aggressive onto debears, even though he's keeping the ball rolling, an odd choice. He showed up way late but Rad pointed out that he is sticking to the same schedule he's had in previous games. @ Sylverfire You've only shared your read on debears, is there anything else that stands out to you? _ So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, so I hope they defend themselves as soon as possible. Even if we end up lynching da0ud for lurking, currently with 0 posts, we can at least gather as much information as possible Hopefully this gets some discussion going, please comment on as much as possible in my post and point out any flaws. Do no avoid answering the questions I addressed to you, it would be a very scummy thing to do. | ||
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Either way I don't think we have to worry about it since you showed up, as long as you and sylver get active and Alsn shows up there will be no lurkers. | ||
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You are the one who pointed out that it is a plurality lynch, and that we should not focus too deeply on a select few. My "list" forces everyone to comment on it, and perhaps gain insight on others through my observations or sees a flaw in my logic and helps me out by pointing it out. Yeah, I've read that lists are generally a mafia tell, or newbie town, but this is only the case if they do not contribute. Are you saying that my post will not contribute? | ||
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My post is simply to gather as much info as possible. I will end up making a case before the day is over, but I figured giving this thread a good kick would help. | ||
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I would've rather waited to say that until after he answered though. | ||
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On November 03 2012 23:35 debears wrote: Don't do lists like that. They really aren't that helpful. You ask too many questions and you can't pursue them, which is something scum want. Pick a couple people at a time to pursue and question them specifically on stuff. No more lists like that Hmm, I disagree but sure, no more lists this game. What do you think Djo's read of sylver's post? | ||
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On November 03 2012 22:06 da0ud wrote: I see your point Djodref but I don't think because someone else votes another one for being a "poor" contirbutor and sees that as a scum read would make himself scum. He is trying to put pressure on Debears in order to get him to maybe post less and better content. That wasn't his point though, and why do you assume (or know) that sylver's motivations are to put pressure on debears? On November 03 2012 23:35 da0ud wrote: Yes. Explanation of where I think you are wrong is in the previous post : the same one you said i am defending Slyfire and he can use it as a rope to start his own defense. What is the point of your question if you already replied to its own answer ? You say you explained in your previous post but you didn't. You are accusing Djodref of accusing someone against his better judgement... Please be more specific with what you disagree with in his posts. On November 04 2012 00:29 da0ud wrote: your case against Sylver is way more constructed than Djo's initial scumslip read. I agree on most point apart maybe for the last point in red which might be over exagerated interpretation. Dont you think Debears ? I think I understand what you mean by this, but you're going to have to clarify. Stop being so vague! My interpretation of what you mean: "Just because sylver said the townies are dedicated doesn't mean he knows who the townies are, he just meant people in general during the daycycle" I'm not sure I agree with you... but you could still be more clear! On November 04 2012 00:31 da0ud wrote: I did not say you misinterpreted the thread, I just said you did take too fast conclusions in my opinion. I like more the case against Sylver by Debears than yours. Yes, but WHY do you like Debears's case more? Specifics! Please stop being so vague da0ud. You don't have a lot of posts but all of them are basically "I agree with you" or "I don't agree with you" | ||
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debears also, telling the observers directly that he'd end the game with a 40 page filter or some such. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:33 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity It's 1.30 am in Hong Kong and it's Saturday night  I guess he might be out...I would be partying if I was not sick  Perhaps... I guess I just like it when people mention they're leaving and will be back in X time. That way when you question them, it'll look weird if they say "be back in 12 hours guys!" without addressing the fact that you're questioning them. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote: Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. | ||
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Because I made a post questioning da0ud, and he conveniently dissapeared right after. I wasn't aware of his timezone though. Everyone was discussing sylver to death. It's really dodgy that he's dissapeared AGAIN but I got told to have more focus in my posts, so that's what I'm trying to do. | ||
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On November 04 2012 04:06 Alsn wrote: Obsy, I'd like you to revise your statement at the end of your post. Sylver looks "bad"? What does that even mean? Rad, Clar, and debears looks good? Again, what does this mean? Does bad = scum? Or are you just accusing him of making bad arguments? The last part of his post seems to be a repeat of the start of his post, like a recap. So I interpret it as good = town, bad = possible scum? Anyway.... ##vote da0ud Seriously dude, I realize you are on a different timezone but that doesn't excuse you from having no original thoughts at all. Your filter is less than a page and every post you'd made has been some variant of "I (dis)agree with you!" without further explanation. I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Debears... I'm not quite sure. The stubbornness about sylver's post where he said he has a lot of fluff really shouldn't have been that big of a deal, he just couldn't let it go. Maybe Rad is on to something. | ||
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If you don't have enough information to make a read make sure to get more information. It would be too easy for scum to go: "Ah, I dunno, don't really have any reads" You shouldn't be getting away with this as town. I'm curious as to any cases you might make in the next 24 hours. | ||
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What I mean is, be careful about how you look when you don't take a stand on anything. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:12 Rad wrote: I haven't shown any reason for you to believe I won't be scum hunting plenty between now and end of d1. Well yeah but.... you haven't shown me any reason that you WILL either. | ||
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The distinction between "I wanted to show that I was trying to spark discussion" and "I was trying to spark discussion" is definitely a relevant one. | ||
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On November 04 2012 13:19 Djodref wrote: @ Calrity First encounter with debears ? What did you mean to say exactly ? First time playing with him. I was pointing out that it's hard to get a meta read on him because he opened the exact same this game as last game, which would be weird to do as scum. I think I confirm later (than the post you quoted) that this is true. It's currently 8 am, so the last 10 hours I have been sleeping. My sleepschedule's been rather odd. As for your concerns about me, I have already said that I will be making a case (or multiple) today. First day is information gathering. As for you can't find any original thoughts... remember that "list" that I posted? The only objection you had to it was that it was a list. It has a lot of good points and observations in it. Don't disregard it just because your newbie mafia guide says that scum like to post meaningless lists, like vote tallies. I post a lot of good information and what do I get? You say "well it's a list, so it doesn't help" and debears says "too many questions, doesn't help anyone"... except it DOES. It helps town. All the answers to the questions I asked can be used later, and I urge everyone to look at who answered their question and who hasn't. But to summarize... Djo says it's a plurality lynch so we should split our attention. I show my thoughts on everyone because I get asked, and Djo says I should focus more on certain people. I focus on da0ud and he dissapears, so I wait rather than letting it go. The reason I got defensive was because I spent a while making that post, and you shit on it with a one liner. | ||
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But to summarize... Djo says it's a plurality lynch so we should split our attention. I show my thoughts on everyone because I get asked, and Djo says I should focus more on certain people. I focus on da0ud and he dissapears, so I wait rather than letting it go. And then he accuses me of not contributing? | ||
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As for Alsn, he wasn't around. And when he came back he immediately talked about what happened at the start of the day and why. He explained his reasoning better and he contributed in other areas. This is why I changed him to null, for me. I guess I was ticked off because you kinda handwaved it, looking back, it was debears who shit on it. People are giving me advice in this thread, I follow it and I get screwed over by doing so. I'm just gonna listen to Hapa and ignore any "advice" from you guys, it's messing with my play. | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:48 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity A few people never answered your questions from the list. Why do you not push them as well ? Because I felt it would go along nicely with any cases I would make. If you "miss" a question asked to you that's super scummy because town reads and re-reads a lot. Scum just sorta play.. Because they don't need extra information. | ||
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My top scrumreads at the time were you and Alsn, Alsn wasn't around at all and you were already being pushed by others. I was just reading, and as I said I will end up posting at least a solid case today, you can tell me if my information gathering has been weak at that point. | ||
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As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. | ||
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The deadline is in about 16-17 hours, don't worry I'm not going to post a case close to deadline, but I will not be posting a case right now. What's with the double standards, you want me to fight my own fights but you're asking me about cheese, who you FoS'd | ||
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On November 04 2012 18:38 da0ud wrote: Sorry to appear half hearted to you but D1 has always appeared very random to me. Most of the cases come from nitpicking or someone contradicting himself. Moreover on the weekends I don't have too much time to write structured cases on other people because real life stuff take over. I count on doing real cases on D2 if I am still alive. The good thing about it is that we will have some real information at that point: interaction with the one lynched D1 and the one NK1. D2 Will take place Tuesday Wednesday, perfect timing at work to write cases when I am bored in the afternoon. I would have an easier time believing you if you had mentioned your inactivity during the weekend in the pregame. Now it's just a convenient excuse if you're scum. I don't want to lynch you, there's not enough information on you, but "don't worry guys D1 doesn't matter" is a terrible attitude if you're town. If no one speaks then even after a lynch and NK you have nothing to go on. We HAVE to communicate with eachother. | ||
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On November 04 2012 23:54 debears wrote: Hey guys, I believe Clarity is scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16787463 First, look at Djo's case about Clarity's - non committal attitude - blending in - lack of scumhunting I would like to add two things to that. 1) Scumhunting Method Clarity's scumhunting method for day 1 appears to be looking for people who don't answer questions. Why is this a scum favored strategy? It's an easy way to scumhunt. You don't have to read for changes in behavior/motivations. Also, if everyone answers the questions, then you can say "oh, idk who is scum cuz all my questions were answered" My scumhunting method is not "looking for people who don't answer questions". You are taking something I said I believe is scummy and turning into saying it's the only thing I think is scummy. Example of what I mean 2) Contradiction to his scumhunting views In this post, clarity names 3 top scumreads. He has no reasoning. Not only that he acknowledges that 3 people haven't answered his questions. Now let's look at what he said about people who don't answer his questions. and this It's a contradiction, and a contradiction in a mafia oriented way. His scumhunting method is a way to avoid actually having to scumhunt, then he doesn't even use it when he gives his top scumreads I did not have cases ready. Yes I was on and checking mafia but I was also working. Djo specifically asked me who my current scumreads were, and who hadn't answered my questions yet. I answered both. Again you put an emphasis on people not answering my questions, when that is only part of it. The same way your "meta" read on me (which is 1 post, that I made about you, that was accurate.) is not the entirety of your case. I had a strong read on you. I do not have a strong read in this game yet 3) Avoiding Making Cases Throughout d1, Clarity has repeatedly avoided making cases, stating they'll come sometime in the last 24 hours. Why is clarity having such a hard time making cases? As town, you would be naturally suspicious of everyone. Yet, Clarity is having trouble. Who tend to have trouble making cases? Scum, since they know that their targets for lynch are town. I do not have trouble making cases. Djo (again him... curious) asked me directly if I was going to make cases. I said yes, I will be making at least one solid cases before this daycycle ends. Instead I'm here having to type up a defense, and Djo is going "Well I guess you just don't want me to defend myself." 4) Taking the Backseat Also, notice how he wants to take a backseat this game. Refer to the example quote before. "Other people are already pushing enough as it is". That is not a townie mindset at all. Yes it is. Unlike some people I prefer not to clutter up the thread. When djo is being pushed by cheese, I don't have to push Djo. In fact, it actively hurts because now Djo has to answer to two people and our posts can get lost. Another reason people shouldn't is because they can get screwed over. What if Cheese is scum? You start pressuring Djo, and Cheese dissapears, exactly like he wanted. Now you're doing his job for him and running the town in circles. The meta - Clarity's scumhunting attitude is way different than his last game as town. Here's an example post Look at how he's willing to actually analyze actions over the whole day 1 last game, yet this game he has done NOTHING of the sort. He hasn't tunneled anyone either, like he tunneled me last game. That, combine with his "answer questions or you're scummy" approach is very different play from his town self. Again, you make it sound like I was jumping at everyones throats. I urge everyone read my XXIX filter, it's only like 8-10 posts, and exactly 1 case, against debears. The "answer my questions or you're scummy" is exactly how I play. Please explain how it is different. I explained my logic for this earlier: Town read, re-read and re-re-read because they have to. They don't miss questions adressed to them, or at least it's not likely. Scum on the other hand just plays. They don't have to read things more than once, they already have most of the facts. | ||
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If anyone has more questions please ask them to me rather than just following the bandwagon. If my answers are insufficient please tell me why and I will address it. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:33 Djodref wrote: one more question clarity, why didn't you discuss with me about my "scuminess" last time. By the way, the lynch is in 7.5 hours which makes it at 10 am for me. It is 2.30am now and I am working tomorrow so I have the right to sleep Wait, where are you living currently? I didn't want to discuss your scumminess with you because I'd rather have an entire case up, rather than tell you then and give you time to prepare and possible post stuff to contradict my arguements before my case goes up. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:40 Rad wrote: @Clarity You make 2 statements here. 1. The answers to your questions can be used later (I agree) 2. You urge everyone to look at who answered their questions and who hasn't (implying not answering is scummy) Considering you're going to be making a case on djo, can you explain the importance of your #2 suggestion? Seems like if you truly thought it was an important thing to note, you'd be more interested in alsn and cheese over djo and debears? With your statements, you spread suspicion across 5 different people and then center in on someone who doesn't apply to your second point. First off, thanks for quoting djo's post. I did indeed miss that, feeling that I have to respond the accusations against me immediately. You must understand the way djo framed his question. He wanted me to list who didn't answer my questions and who I have a scumread on. I mentioned that it's scummy to not respond to my question, and it is. But if I dig into someone's filter I can find stuff that looks/is scummy. That doesn't mean they're scum. The list of people who hadn't answered was just that, and nothing more. My scumreads on the other hand aren't based on a single weak scumslip or the fact that they didn't answer a certain question. On November 05 2012 02:41 Djodref wrote: So it means that you have confirmation bias against me. You don't want to give me a chance to defend myself, you have already made up your mind and you want to see me dead. It means that you are now 100% convinced that I am scum (in the case where you are town) which is stupid because I am not scum and townies should always keep their mind open or that you are scum yourself. When did I say that I'm convinced you are scum? I don't have confirmation bias either, but notice how everytime I mention the possibility of you being scum, you lash out harder and fiercer against me. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:49 Djodref wrote: Honestly I would be pissed off if Clarity is town and do not want to discuss his case against me beforehand because he is afraid that I could talk my way out of the lynch. I don't understand why a townie would want to see me dead so much. If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 | ||
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On November 05 2012 03:03 Djodref wrote: The fact that you don t want to discuss with me nor give me enough time to defend myself against your case shows that you have some confirmation bias against me. No, it just shows that my scumread kept getting stronger and stronger and I was wondering why you were so curious about it. It's not confirmation bias if it's true. On November 05 2012 03:01 Rad wrote: As we saw from last game, djo is terrible at talking himself out of a lynch when town. That is a good point. But at least now we know what djo looks like when he's town avoiding to get lynched. | ||
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On November 05 2012 03:09 Alsn wrote: Looking at what Clarity has said since coming back into thread so far isn't exactly reinforcing my belief that I think there's a possibility of him being town. Clarity, if you really want to help town I'd recommend you actually present your case and try to actually make it count. If it turns out that you get mislynched anyway then at the very least we will know that you were sincere all along today. Having minor arguments about why you've not yet presented a case just means that what you really want to say gets pushed further towards lynch, which is bad for town since then we won't have time to judge you properly on your arguments. Like I said I'm working on it. | ||
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All game long he's been accusing people of FoS'ing him while he's away. The reason it's interesting is that he doesn't mention when he leaves, it's just "unlucky" I guess. But it's a good way to redirect attention to whomever is accusing him. By itself this doesn't mean much, but by the end of this post you should know why I'm extremely suspicious of debears. On November 03 2012 13:25 debears wrote: Djo, if you are town, stop arguing over stupid points. You're wrong. Get over it If you're mafia, keep arguing Debears does two things here. 1. He halts discussion. He doesn't change subject, he just stops the current one. 2. He calls djo wrong. There is no explanation. Just: "You're wrong. Get over it" He's also telling Djo to stop being an idiot, NOW. Why would he want him to stop if he had nothing better to discuss? My current scumreads have changed wildly with recent developments. To me, a debears/djodref scumteam seems most likely, but since djo has set it up so that I cannot post a useful case about him now I'm posting this instead. On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote: How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. Here it starts, the whole "fluff debate". Fluff talk about fluff. It is the epitome of useless. Here are all his posts regarding this issue: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote: How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote: Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote: Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote: So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote: Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Wait... but what did debears say in that previous quote.... stop arguing over stupid points? On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote: Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming I end up trying to shut him up, and it works. He manages to convey that he posts more content than fluff, with SEVEN fluff posts. I figured maybe he was trying to bury something, but if it's there I can't find it. Regardless, flooding the thread with useless posts is anti-town. Although this stood out, by itself it doesn't mean much. He spammed because he wanted to prove a point.... I guess On November 04 2012 04:02 debears wrote: Where do you get that I'm artificially increasing my filter? I'm not posting for the sake of filter. I'm posting for the sake of discussion and finding scum Oh, okay. On November 03 2012 11:39 debears wrote: Btw to all obs I will attempt to reach the fabled 30 pg filter Because talking a lot is pro town right? But day 1 debears is always the same, every game I've looked into anyway. He starts out aggressive, regardless of alignment. But last game where he was scum, he actively lurked the more the game went on, he fed off of his "townie vibe" because he posted a lot. But never has he proclaimed he will be posting a lot, this game he has. Why is that? I believe that he's forcing himself to be active all game. By posting this he is forced to keep his promise or he will stick out. He gets over his fear of posting later in the game as scum this way. It's easy to be active D1 scum, you can keep your story straight. The longer the game goes the more problems you'll have and debears has experienced this and knows it as a weakness. But what REALLY caught my eye were these: On November 03 2012 14:27 debears wrote: So what is your exact read on me? Scum, slightly scum, null, slightly town, or town? On November 04 2012 03:03 debears wrote: @Sylver Do you consider me a good lynch candidate based on activity? and I have put more than one sentence in a post. My most important posts have more than 1. Those are the key Why is debears so concerned about what specific people think of him? Surely if you're town you just behave normally and address concerns as they come? Or maybe he's trying to get people to say that he's town, so he can use it in his defense later. Regardless I do not see a town motive for asking these questions. All they do is divert from what people are discussing, for an answer that doesn't mean a thing. If people think you're scum, they'll say so, no need to ask. My final point is his entire case against me. It comes out of nowhere. Please read through debears filter and find posts where he questions me or says he's suspicious of me. It's too convenient. Has anyone noticed that after he posted his case things have gone "smoothly"? | ||
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On November 05 2012 03:58 debears wrote: You are completely denying the fact that you said people not answering your questions is very scummy twice. Yet, you know who hasn't answered your questions, and you don't find them in your top 3 suspicions I may have to retract super scummy, but it is scummy. (whatever the difference is) In the post with all my questions I said this to entice everyone to answer. The way to get scum isn't to point out one thing and say it's scummy and therefore the person is scum. Point out multiple things. A lot of things have changed since I posted that, looking back I am very surprised by the people who did not answer. Are you saying that I should find the people who didn't answer my questions immediately scum? Please reply to my case. | ||
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On November 05 2012 04:15 Alsn wrote: I think the thread so far has demonstrated quite clearly the flaw with your idea that not answering a particular question is inherently scummy. Even if we assume that only the scum have refused to answer your question(unlikely, from where I'm sitting) it would mean that at least one townie is among that group. Yes, I've recognized my flaw and changed it to a possible scum tell. Again, the exaggeration was because I wanted people to answer, threat of being under suspect helps with that. | ||
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When I make posts I generally have the thread in a different tab and check before I post and you pointed out what I wanted to. It kind of ticked me off because I felt clever, so I changed my post and put it up anyway. The reason I didn't post for a while then was because I wasn't home. Thanks for answering my question. | ||
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On November 05 2012 04:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Clarity I agree with the fluff point on your case of Debears - fluff creating more fluff because fluff is fluffy fluff. (Fluff = confidence from last game). The first point, however, you say that he was trying to halt discussion. I'd disagree, Debears and I both wanted Djo to stop because the argument was, well, ridiculous in nature. It was pretty much going in circles and if we hadn't stopped it, we'd still be drowned in it. I guess my problem with it is mainly that he didn't replace it with anything. I'm sure once someone had something useful to say it would've stopped Djo. | ||
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I have the case in hand, I will post it if it looks like I'll be lynched, otherwise I will post it tomorrow. Djo was trying to pressure me into posting my case on him, starts adding that he won't be around for lynchtime, that's fine. I come back, you and him both have cases on me, and turns out Djo is in South Korea(??) so he's not around for 7 hours before lynchtime. He then points out that I just don't want him to put up a defense, says he's going to bed, replies to my post 10 minutes later emphasizing that if I post a case on him it just means I don't want him to be there to defend himself. I feel set up, but nothing I can do. I didn't go from "this" to "that". Notice how I said: "Yes Djo my case was going to be about you" | ||
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"My case was going to be about djo but he made it so I can't post a useful case on him" | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:04 debears wrote: @Clarity He did say he'd be back a few hours before lynch right? And is there anything new in your case that hasn't been said yet about him? The point he repeated over and over is that I didn't want him to defend himself, which simply isn't true. His point being that he's afraid I'll post the case right after he leaves and by the time he returns everyone has made up his mind, I don't want this result either, so I'm holding off. Yes it has new stuff, but nothing huge. Mainly it links all the inconsistencies he has, and how he's consistent in something he was not last game. | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:21 Alsn wrote: Oh I see, you're talking about Djod being afk. I agree with debears here, I don't understand why you wouldn't make a case against Djod just because he left. If you thought he was the most likely to be scum, you should have went for it. A lot of things changed, mainly the fact that I slept for 5 hours in the middle of the day and woke up to two cases against me and a bunch of posts by Djo saying "Clarity is just waiting until I leave so he can screw me over". It feels unfair, I think he has a point but it still pisses me off. On November 03 2012 12:49 Clarity_nl wrote: I agree, this isn't much better than making a Djodref smiley case. I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese Might become useful later. Anyone remember this post? To which debears replied: On November 03 2012 12:53 debears wrote: Besides stating the obvious, do you agree with me or djo on this? Now, debears calls everyone usless one way or the other so that's a null tell, but I just found this and I can't tell if this makes scumteam debears/djo more or less likely? After this there are a bunch of instances of one following the other. It's rather interesting that he asked me to pick between him and djo, rather than asking me if Cheese's joke is a null tell or not. Am I just getting paranoid now? I need fresh eyes. | ||
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I don't think there's a way for me to comment on cheese without screwing myself over. I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1, but people clearly think so since it's the lynchpin (lol) of the cases on me. | ||
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I'm not convinced that it's scummy though, as I think keeping a clear head and taking in as much information as possible is most important day 1. I find there are always people to push information out of others, and I feel that (for me personally) if I push people I tend to get confirmation bias, so I avoid it early. | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:48 Obzy wrote: I've been worried about Cheese, but nobody has seemed interested in grilling him. I don't really feel comfortable questioning people rapidly, my posting is too slow to keep up with a forum argument. I want to know who the two people he thinks are scum, and any neutral reads. (Honestly, I like lists, so I want him to list his town reads, too. But he's hinted at an aversion to lists so With regards to Clar's post just now - "I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1" - whyever not? You should be showing that you are town through your actions. Staying neutral is ridiculous. If you don't have an opinion whatsoever, you should have a reason for it- like, "My house caught fire and my dog died and I was kidnapped by terrorists and thusly I haven't been reading the thread at all so I have no opinions." If your opinion is that every single person looks towny or scummy, cool. Whatever. Judgment problems maybe, but at least it's honest. Not wanting to hold an opinion[being neutral] is what doesn't make any sense, unless you're afraid of being wrong. CC hasn't had anybody go after him, he's had a fairly soft impact on the direction that the thread has been taking. Why would he fear being wrong? He wouldn't necessarily be the one who was blamed. IMO, anyways. I don't feel comfortable voting CC today because nobody has really gone after him so it would feel very sudden, but I really would like to see people looking at him a bit more. He should appreciate that too, because it gives him a chance to open up and not look so "neutral"; and also prevents him from "avoiding attention and skating by". Let me rephrase... I don't think that because you're not pushing hard /you're not accusing someone of being scum is being scummy. I actually feel that (WIFOM incoming) scum wants to be active in this format, and gain town favor early, ride that out to a win. @ Rad He's being accused of the same things I am, if I argue for/against Cheese it'll all be major WIFOM | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:17 Alsn wrote: Someone talked about DST going into effect in the U.S. today I think? Don't remember who it was. The lynch is one hour later compared to pre DST changes in Europe, but since there were DST changes, it's 2:00 am again for me. Okay, now I'm confused. When is lynch time? | ||
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Is there ANYONE other than sylver here that thinks debears might be scum? Seriously doubting right about now... | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:56 debears wrote: Why would you think that doesn't prove anything. I didn't know everyone got the VT role pm? This sounds like you knew that everyone did I didn't want to assume things. I didn't know that either but I had considered it much earlier. I noticed the OP is different from my PM role. | ||
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The reason debears says that is because the OP role says Townie | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:03 Alsn wrote: Yea, I get what happened. But can we assume that scum knew about the flavour text or what? I don't see the reason to point it out to us if claiming that means that they are 100% VT no chance of that claim being false? Cause otherwise the game would be over at this point? I took marvel's post as: everyone who's not VT got given the VT name | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:07 Alsn wrote: Yea and I'm just supposed to take your word for it? For all I know you and Clarity are both scum and you figured since the OP doesn't mention it you'd claim and then say "amagad, we couldn't possibly not be town!". I think we have to assume the whole flavour thing to be a null tell. That means the only new info we have is that Cheese claimed VT..... ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:30 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I seriously thought that way of claiming would get me confirmed town because nobody else knew the flavor for VT besides VT's xD. And I figured, as a confirmed town, that I'd get the NK because confirmed towns are a good target over going for a longshot blue snipe. Hey, Debears got what I was going for right away. I'll be afk until the green flip. WTF, defend yourself. | ||
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##vote Mr. Cheesecake Your defense is WIFOM?! | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:45 Obzy wrote: Alright ^^ It would just be such a damn shame if da0ud and yourself were modkilled for something like that. It's the sort of thing that would slip my mind if I hadn't been worrying about it. If he was town, he shouldn't give up. If he was town, he shouldn't've remained neutral. If he was town, he wouldn't've tried to point out, as Rad noticed, that he was specifically VT, when he wasn't going to be lynched today ANYWAYS. I think that it was entirely an attempt to try to get votes off of Clarity. (Which worked, if only for a single day.) Alternatively, if he flipped green, then Clarity was trying to take advantage of the sudden confusion to get himself off. So even if he's green, I still think Clarity is scum. But he is not green. [IMO] I'll address this after lynchtime because we need to get as much info out of cheese as possible atm. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:53 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Because, this right now is the chance to prove my innocence. This would have been the stupidest move ever for scum. Rule #1 of being town: Prove your innocence. I just proved my innocence by taking the biggest risk ever, a VT claim based on the fact that the OP didn't indicate flavor. If I were scum, I should've known the moderator would have come and cleared it up and subsequently this occurring. Does this mean you wouldn't have claimed if it was classic flavor and you were called Townie? | ||
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I'll try and answer this myself but not now. I am seriously confused and need sleep. Back in 10 hours max. | ||
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On November 05 2012 17:28 da0ud wrote: If a lynch for D2 : I am currently running for yourself (see my case) and Clarity (he knew that non-VT would have the VT role). I did like Clarity's defense overnight, he sounded pretty honest to me. He has addressed calmly all the points against him. Just this slip is too much. He could be blue though, but I would not think he would have been that condescending if blue. I still keep Debears somewhere there on top of the list, but he has been consistent in driving town forward. Yet there is a lot of fluff, useless posts ("ugh mispost", etc.). If he is scum we should be able to find some clues with more pieces of information on people's alignment in the near future. I have a gut feeling on Rad. I will try to put a case on him during D2. If i cannot make a proper case with valid arguments against him, I will let you know why I find him to lay more townie then. I asked marv about the flavor role PMs way before Cheese claimed. The reason I sounded so "condescending" (as you put it) is because I wanted him to shut up and explain why he claimed, and to try and stop others from claiming, but things went to shit fast. The reason I didn't say this earlier was because I had to check with marv if I was allowed to post this. | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:14 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Why did you keep this information for yourself ? Now that the thread is calmed down, could you explain in detail why you wanted to lynch Cheese ? Because even from the perspective of a VT not knowing others know the flavor, his claim made no sense. After you got all the info (when marv posted everyone knew VT flavor) you didn't switch either, with the exact same information I had. I didn't tell anyone because I figured scum would try what Cheese looked like he was trying. No point in telling scum that town knows they know about VT flavor. I'd like to know your reasoning for staying on cheese as well. | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:16 Djodref wrote: EBWOP: If you had checked this with marv way earlier than cheese claim, what prevented you from asking him the permission to share this info with everybody in the meantime ? Nothing prevented me from doing that, I just didn't. It only occurred to me as I was about to post it that posting a mod pm might not be a good idea. | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:31 Djodref wrote: So you have learned that mafia could do ”safe” fakeclaims with the help of the VT flavor but you didn't even ask the host if it was ok to share this information ? That's kind of anti-town, wouldn't you agrre ? Like I said, it didn't occur to me it might be against the rules until I wanted to post it. | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:39 Djodref wrote: I'm phone posting now so I'm going to give you only a quick answer for my lynch of Cheese. I've already brought up some elements to explain my failure but what decided me was cheese reaction to Alsn pressure and the fact that his ill-timed claim allowed him to say "clarity confirmed VT btw" which came very scummy if you consider that I'm pretty sure that you are scum. But... I didn't say that, he did. Also which came very scummy if you consider that I'm pretty sure that you are scum. What? | ||
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I'm the one who said "let's not make assumptions" a bit before that though. I am not confirmed town. | ||
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On November 05 2012 23:27 debears wrote: Now, you're lieing. That's a claim It's safe to assume that since Townie isn't Townie, other roles have different names too, right? | ||
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On November 05 2012 23:31 debears wrote: Alright there are some assumptions we need to make here 1) you're VT - You do not know anyone else gets VT role pm. You then ask marv. Marv clarify's everyone does have it. You don't share it with everyone to prevent VT claim or stop useless VT claims 2) You're a blue - You know you got the VT claim, but you're claiming VT right now. You knew VT's did not know anyone else had role pm by talking to marv. You did not share with the town crucial information to prevent stupid/fake VT claims 3) You're mafia - You knew you have VT role pm, you aren't suprised by the claim flavor. You didn't tell the town crucial information because you're mafia. If you were blue, you would have shared the info thru marv I didn't tell town because I didn't want scum to know I knew. This way when scum tries to fake claim VT I can call them out on it. I didn't expect a townie to make a shitty claim, why would he? | ||
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On November 05 2012 23:45 debears wrote: @clarity I just thought over things. I'm dropping any pressure against you until i do more research I don't think forcing me to roleclaim during N1 is a good idea. | ||
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On November 06 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: Also I would like to answer me what were your thoughts when you saw this post for the first time : "Jesus Christ" I tried to stop him from doing this. | ||
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Do you really not see a scum motive for Cheese pointing me out as "confirmed town" Again, you seem to think I had special information after marv posted that everyone knows VT flavor, but I didn't, you were just as informed as I was. We all voted for Cheese. Town Clarity has forgot Cheese for a while No, I was just kinda busy answering 1001 questions from you and debears. I was busy defending myself. | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:00 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Are you trying to deny your responsibility in the lynch ? Daoud did not vote for Cheese because he really believed that debears was scum... I have explained my reasons for lynching Cheese. I was being stupid but at least it makes some sense. I don't understand how you could not recognize that he was town and genuinely believing in the power of the VT flavor. How could you believe he was scum ? The only reason I see is that you were mafia and too happy to see a possibility to escape your lynch to think straight. I was already safe from lynching before I switched. | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:01 Djodref wrote: Ask me again in the morning. Stop blue hunting and stop telling blues what to do. | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:06 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity After a post like this, the only possibility for you to be alive tomorrow morning is being mafia. You don't understand do you? Debears got the hint. Doesn't matter what I answer, what role I claim, it will help scum. | ||
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The reason I asked marv before Cheese claiming was because I noticed what Cheese did. The OP Townie does not match with the PM townie. The PM townie flavor is in every PM. How do you conclude from this that I am blue or scum? | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:32 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Could you at least tell me when you asked marv your question ? I'm only asking for when right now ^^ Date: 11/5/12 2:48 On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote: Because whether or not the text matches in the OP compared to the PM doesn't matter. I'm certain that every single person noticed this, but nobody else (has mentioned) PM'd Marv specifically asking if the VT flavor text meant VT. It seemed fairly self-explanatory. And - I was under the impression that Cheese's claim was technically when he first put Regular Fapper at the end of his post; to him [as it turned out], that was a claim to all other VTs to take notice of that would not be recognized by blue or mafia. I don't agree that Cheese's actual claim was later- it was clear to him from the beginning. That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote: Don't try to convince me that you aren't scum, convince me(and everybody else) who is. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. On November 06 2012 02:43 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Ok, that's cool, if you were safe when you switched, it's sure that your vote did not mean anything. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) | ||
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Cheese noticed this, that was his reasoning for claiming, because in his eyes only VT could recognize it. Please read, I've said this earlier. I'm also not a fan of how you claim to be leaving and then pop up again when it's convenient. This is the third time you've done this. | ||
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On November 06 2012 03:18 Obzy wrote: Hmmm. To me, the idea that other roles knew VT flavor didn't remotely cross my mind until it became a central issue, so it made no sense that you would've asked Marv about it. I'll think on it. Alsn and Rad feeling differently about you is making me worry lol. Okay well, you implied you narrowed me down to blue or scum, so let me phrase it this way: If I'm VT, and I notice the difference between PM and OP flavour, I would wonder if saying I'm a regular fapper would create chaos because the blue roles and scum have no idea what I'm talking about OR if I claim Townie, that people would say I'm lying because I would've known it was called regular fapper if I was actually VT..... I hope that makes sense. | ||
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When it came to his opening post... all the "scumslips" that people pointed out were legitimate concerns. But then sylver posted a bit more, and a bit more, and I came to realize that if I wanted to, I could point out a scumslip in every single one of his posts. The thing that's most concerning is his activity. Although his profile states today is his birthday, and it is the nightcycle, I guess I can excuse him for today. But during day 1 he came in way late and didn't offer much more than flailing of arms and pointing of fingers. Although everyone else is making more and more sense as time goes on, sylver is the biggest mystery. | ||
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On November 06 2012 16:56 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity If you are town, the only way to redeem yourself is to seriously scumhunt from now on. Don't waste your time on defense and I would recommend you to not waste your time on me, but that's up to you. Now that you're finally giving me the chance. Or no it's not even that, it's that you're being forced to give me the chance. Why would you add that I shouldn't make a case on you? please explain. | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:50 Djodref wrote: @ Rad What if clarity PM'd the host asking about this before the cheese incident? What if he just realized that you can't read into the flavor too much because, well, it's true, you can't read into the flavor too much? Why must "he's scum!" be the answer? Null read to me. How did you know that Clarity had sent a PM to the host about this subject before he told us ?[/QUOTE] Because of the time it took me to reply in the thread, and the hours upon hours it takes for marv to get back to you (just kidding marv) | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:52 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity I'm town, you would just waste your time. Could you tell us how you came with the idea to ask the host a question about the VT flavor ? I have said this, a million times. The VT flavor in the PM is different than the flavor in the OP. Please read my posts, stop repeating questions and accusations if you actually believe they have merit. | ||
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I'm answering a question which will be asked to me anyway if Rad doesn't know. But if Rad thought logically the answer would be the same as mine. Or maybe he just read one of the five posts where you asked me this and I explained. | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:56 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Did you think, as Cheese did, that VT claim could be imb4 in this game ? No, because I learnt that everyone had the flavor. | ||
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Could you explain your FoS on Obzy a bit better? | ||
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Since you are so certain I am scum, why have you not been concerned with finding the second scum until people forced you to back off? Debears admitted he was wrong to push me N1 because he'd be bluehunting, so when the day would come (and he'd be alive) I imagine he'd pressure me again. You on the other hand didn't care at all, push push push push. Have you not considered the possibility that, since you've been pushing me for 48h straight, you might have confirmation bias? Especially since you're saying it's okay to bluehunt as long as you push your top scumread.... | ||
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It's forum time, yes. | ||
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On November 06 2012 11:18 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity @ Clarity Right now, Obzy, daoud and me want to lynch you. I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to convince sylverfyre to vote against you as well. I want you to roleclaim and to tell us what you did ask marv exactly. I'm on Obzy side, I cannot believe that you could be something else than blue or red, given your experience in this game. On November 06 2012 09:57 Djodref wrote: If Clarity claims tomorrow, this is going to be a fakeclaim I'm 99% of this. If I die, I'll hope you understand that the claim is fake. @ Djo Why would claiming during the night be good, but me claiming today would be a scum move? | ||
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On November 06 2012 20:15 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Night or Day, I'm expecting a fake blue claim from you. I wanted to force you to produce it and try to show how your blue claim is fake. I did not manage to do it last time for dandel but I should get my revenge Given your experience in this game, I doubt that you actually went for marv to ask your infamous question about the flavor, in the case where you are VT. So what you are saying is that regardless of what I claim or how I claim it, you would have considered it a false claim because I am scum? Why would I claim blue during the night, why would you try to get me to claim blue during the night? I don't see an obvious scum motive, since odds were scum wouldn't lynch me, looking at all the pressure on me, but I sure as hell don't see a town motive. You were saying (and still are) that I'm either scum or blue, and then you ask me to claim my role? How are you so absolutely sure that I'm scum, yet you can only convince half of the players. I've asked you before if you have wondered at any point if you have confirmation bias, could you please answer that question? | ||
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On November 06 2012 20:15 Djodref wrote: Given your experience in this game, I doubt that you actually went for marv to ask your infamous question about the flavor, in the case where you are VT. I still don't understand what you mean by this. | ||
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On November 06 2012 20:46 Djodref wrote: I think that you are blue or scum because a VT Clarity would have defended Cheese. But I don t think that you can really be blue... So there is a big chance for you to be scum call it confirmation bias if you want, I dont understand why you want argue with me... Y u no scumhunt ? I'm doing it right now. | ||
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On November 06 2012 21:01 Djodref wrote: ok, we have now 2 VT dead. Both of them were at least as experienced on playing mafia on this forum if not more for debears. Both of them did not ask the host about the flavor or whatever. Here is what I expect of VT Clarity ~ not sending a question to the host about the flavor in your own VT pm, which Clarity did ~ even with some doubts, recognize the genuiness of the other two VT going into a high five festival and join the festival, which Clarity did not do My conclusion: you are not VT or it s really unlikely and you have not natural reactions for a newbie please tell me where I am wrong You are wrong in the fact that no matter which role I am I would have noticed the flavor difference in PM and OP. This automatically answers your second point, why the hell would I go into a high five festival, giving scum more info about who's VT and who's blue. | ||
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On November 06 2012 21:32 Djodref wrote: Do you have any idea the power you would have given to town with 3 confirmed townies ? No, you wanted to avoid this, so you spread doubt and confusion. My point is that you would have sympatize with debears and cheese if you were also a VT, especially with Cheese because you had no reason to suspect him beforehand (his play being very similar to yours), even with the extra information that you had, because you would have been before in their position, ie with no information at all. Did you see debears reaction after this, he tried to confirm all the VT alltogether. It would have ended the game... I'm sorry but you are not VT, and I hope that all the other VTs in this game can realize this after this poat. The power I would have given to TOWN?! A mass roleclaim day 1 is good for town? Even if I knew that Cheese was VT because of that post, which I didn't because I knew everyone had the flavor, how the hell is confirming 3 VT good for town? All it does is make the list of possible blue players shorter. I told everyone to "stfu", because Cheese's claim meant nothing other than that he claimed VT. I read it as a null tell, but then he didn't defend himself and gave up, which I read as a scum tell. Yes, I wanted to avoid having 3 non-confirmed town pose as confirmed town. I wasn't the one spreading doubt and confusion, cheese was. Even if I had said nothing marv would have still shown up and told everyone that the flavor is known to all. Debears did react like that in the heat of the moment, Rad and Sylver called that out as the worst move of all time, and he agreed shortly after. I sympathized with debears much more than cheese. I don't know why you think the opposite of that, there's a reason I jumped from debears to cheese, and there's a reason I didn't jump back on debears when I got the opportunity. | ||
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On November 06 2012 22:02 Djodref wrote: I mean that you are a newb, and newb dont go and ask questions to the host. What? New people are LESS inclined to ask questions? | ||
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On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote: Date: 11/5/12 2:48 That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) On November 06 2012 03:23 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay well, you implied you narrowed me down to blue or scum, so let me phrase it this way: If I'm VT, and I notice the difference between PM and OP flavour, I would wonder if saying I'm a regular fapper would create chaos because the blue roles and scum have no idea what I'm talking about OR if I claim Townie, that people would say I'm lying because I would've known it was called regular fapper if I was actually VT..... I hope that makes sense. I refuse to answer any more of your questions if I have already answered them before. This has happened way too much for me to think you simply "missed it." | ||
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On November 06 2012 22:02 Djodref wrote: On a side note, your scumhunting looks like a defense move... Djo, I stopped caring what you think of me a long time ago. I have realized I cannot convince you otherwise. You are either full of confirmation bias or you are scum. Me asking you questions are to determine which it is. | ||
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A few questions pop to mind immediately. Djo, why did you claim? I don't think you were in any real danger of getting lynched, and I don't think this changes anything about your suspicion of me. What is the flavor in your PM? Why do you want me to claim so bad? Why do you believe that outing yourself at blue makes it less likely that you were blue hunting? You obviously do not want to use your abilities on other blues. Why didn't you protect debears? You explained he was an obvious NK candidate. If you jailed Alsn N1, why did you suspect him today? Why did you "pressure vote" him and now take it back? I have some calls to make right now, after that I'll read through some filters and be back. | ||
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Marv told me that blue roles are not allowed to claim with flavor, only with their vanilla role names, like djo did. I figured I would ask in case he made up something. Please explain better why you claimed, djo. I don't see "because I was being told I was blue hunting" as a reason. Why do you want me to claim? and I've already said what I asked marv, why don't you read the damn thread. | ||
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How does Djod's claim make you turn 180 and say that it's Rad and me? Was your analysis of my possible innocence hinging on Djo being scum? | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:24 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity My claim makes sense and I hope to be considered as confirmed town soon. With this statis, my opinions carry more weight because other town players can fully trust me. Don't you see how much I have committed to lynch you ? I hope I can move people with my commitment ! I don't think anyone was questioning your commitment to get me lynched. | ||
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Alsn please answer my questions on the last page. | ||
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Please try to think of how your reactions would differ if I claimed: VT, Cop, Doctor or Jailkeeper Do your reactions differ? I ask again, why do you want me to claim? Consider this, if I am town I gave hints towards both being VT and blue because I do not want to give scum the ammo. Why do you think I emphasized so much on the possibility of me being VT? | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:41 Alsn wrote: I don't see how my post just above this doesn't explain this question, but ok, I'll bite. It doesn't hinge on you being scum. But assuming I believe his claim he obviously isn't a likely candidate anymore. So assuming his claim is legit(which I don't have much reason to doubt at this point) you and Rad definitely fit the profile. Like I said, I still want to look at other possibilities, and I will. But for now it seems too good to be true that his claim is fake just to frame the two of you. The reason I ask is because you (maybe not as extravagantly as Rad) argued against Djo, calling out parts of his argument as bogus. You also claimed that it's possible he just has mega confirmation bias. Why do any of these two beliefs diminish, even if marv swooped in and told everyone Djo is Jailkeeper. | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:45 Djodref wrote: Yes, my reactions are going to differ... I'll have strong suspicions against you in any case but I might be able to believe one of them. I have no fucking idea why you were so reluctant to give any information. And honestly, the only thing I am waiting from your side right now is to find me someone who is more likely to be scum than you. You are wasting your time while discussing with me... On November 07 2012 04:17 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity I've claimed because I wanted some leverage to lynch you. Are you a Regular Fapper ? Are you a blue ? or.. Are you scum ? Do not waste time and go scumhunt (if you are town) because I think that your life depends on this right now... Which one is it? | ||
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I will not be claiming for now, I really don't see the reason to. If someone other than Djod believes I should claim because it would help town, please let me know. I'll be going through filters again. I read Rad as town all game so far, because he's come to my defense, but I'm starting to wonder if he's just defending me because I was likely to get lynched, and it would get him townie points. Be back with more, later. | ||
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@ everyone Just please make sure you look at Djo's actual arguments, rather than his opinions. | ||
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You had town reads on both so you voted for the lesser townread? Why didn't you switch to me or Djo? | ||
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I'm sure most of us here have read the XXX analysis thread by Ver, and if you haven't I recommend it. In this, Ver explains how town could have had an easy scum lynch on day 1, Misder. Ver pointed out that apologizing a lot, and claiming to be new/not smart enough/not fast enough to keep up makes no sense as town. If you are town, you do not discredit yourself. You want your argument to matter and you want people to take you seriously. Cheese even made a post about it: On November 03 2012 11:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Here's a topic: I don't want anyone playing the noob card as a defense. Ever. You can make decent arguments / cases even if it's your first game. Don't attribute your actions to "I'm sorry, idk what I'm doing! Newbie town here! Man I suck at this game." <snip> Let's count how many times he either apologizes, claims to be new or claims to have no good input. + Show Spoiler [Giant spoiler.] + On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote: K - This is in response to debears post asking about me. I may screw up the formatting but hopefully not - Yeah, I've been trying to read and refresh the thread regularly, I think I've been away from it for maybe an hour total since game start. 1)I've typed out a few posts that were a bit longer, but after re-reading, it didn't look like they did anything to advance town interests and the only thing they did was look spammy and unhelpful, so I've mostly been deleting them. I am, as mentioned, not really certain whether or not I'm judging things properly and taking a concrete stance on something that turns out to be stupid feels sort of dumb. No comment, it does move really fast. I didn't really want to call you out directly. You responded really strongly to Alsn's red font, and it seemed counterproductive - but stifling discussion is a problem; given that you've been the primary generator of discussion. 2)I don't have a problem with posting, I don't want to post meaninglessly. Writing about things that are actually useful and will help everybody is difficult, because when I look at what I've drafted it looks moronic and doesn't help anybody. Answering being directly called out is a lot easier, since I don't have to cast about for what to say, I just have to explain how I'm playing. I wanted the conversation to shift away from talking about Cheese using jokes or not. It was a meaningless thing to discuss. Pointing it out so early and then dwelling on it for so long meant that it isn't a good scumtell for Cheese, while also making him aware of the fact he was doing it (Assuming that it WAS a scumtell, it no longer is). That entire discussion was just a waste of time, so I would say that it makes sense that my post, pointing it out, was equally useless. I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. On November 03 2012 15:03 Obzy wrote: Alright, I'll check it out when I get a chance. 3)Trying to read like four of the newbie guides and everyone's filters lol ._.; and hitting refresh on this tab occasionally so I don't miss stuff. I suppose since I'm here- @Rad I just finished reading through your filter. It's almost depressing - I really appreciate how you're encouraging - but I haven't seen any cases. MLG is a valid excuse IMHO, tomorrow I would also like to see some reads on players from you. I really want you to be town, but I don't know if there's anything backing up you being town any more than there is ME being town. ^^; I will be sure to take a look regarding dembearz, though - that filter is going to be sort of miserable to read haha :0 On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote: Hm. Okay. I've been looking at FoS the same way as a vote. Assuming people intend to vote the way they are suspicious, I didn't really think there was a difference; letting the mod keep track makes an amount of sense, though. @Cheese 4>:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: That sounds like the sort of thing I would do. Bringing up the not using newbness as an excuse without calling me out specifically (as the only player who was not participating in the previous game) and then 5)pointing out a scumtell based on inexperience looks like a trap. It may be valid, but combined with the earlier statement, there doesn't really seem to be an answer besides inexperienced town and scum, and you've already indicated that inexperienced town is unacceptable. Why wouldn't you just vote? FoS Mr. Cheese. @Djo Notes: ignores deb/Als argument, policy discussion, mechanics discussion, argument with Cheesecake. If I didn't dislike CC's argument, I'd be a little more doubtful, but... I do dislike it. I think part of the problem for Djo is I have a hard time reading some of his sentences, so it's a little harder to follow his exact train of thought lol. Given that I'm suspicious of CC, I don't have a real problem with Djo at this time. @debears [I seriously clicked your filter and cringed before realizing it's 4 pages, not 40.] (Also, @sylver..) However I may have mentioned FoS vs vote confusion at the top of this post that I wrote like 30 minutes ago, I really don't like the vote on debears at all. If I'm wrong, fucking bummer, but debears is driving conversation. His filter's not easy to read, but the content is useful to Me, at least. I wish I wasn't getting attacked har har, but the activeness in making me respond to stop lurking is a townie move IMHO. If he was mafia, he would've let me continue happily lurking and reading to my heart's content and then blasted me in a day, rather than trying to get me to start contributing early on. For god's sake, it had been less than 6 hours from the start of the game, you hadn't even appeared yet, there were people with only a few words and he writes up a post designed to get me to contribute? That definitely feels townie to me. I don't see how you could come to the opposite conclusion. Some (Maybe even a lot!) of the filter is pretty pointless and could've gone unsaid. The parts that DID go said are, I think, the best in the thread. If he didn't have quality bits in the filter along with the spam I'd think differently but the quality parts look solid. I definitely think he's town at the moment. You haven't interacted with anybody besides Rad and myself, and your first post comes in and blasts debears? @da0ud What the hell dude, get in here and post >_> 6)You can't do worse than me ffs I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- 7)And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. The above is all in page 1 of his filter. At this point I will skip a couple of posts, please looks at them yourselves, but you'll find one of these in almost every one of his posts. So let's look at some on page 3 (his last page) On November 06 2012 04:45 Obzy wrote: It does. 8)I have a problem with mafia, in that I'm bad at detecting liars lol. I like assuming that everybody is being honest and telling the truth, and in a proper game, that's not possible. Your responses to me are answering my questions, which just makes me wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or if you're innocent and it's just shining through or something lol. The way you reacted to Cheese's statement feels.. legitimate? Upon rereading. What do you think of Sylver? If you're still around. For that matter, what does everyone think of Sylver? On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote: Hm. 9)I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. 10)I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyre then. Is this really someone's attitude coming into a mafia game? Let's compare it to his pregame: On November 02 2012 10:06 Obzy wrote: /in I didn't want to in on the last one due to not being sure if I'd have enough time to be active, given that I'm normally only able to read for a couple hours throughout the day. But after the activity shown in the last game... I may have been setting the bar too high for myself. Here's to the game filling up fast >:0 On November 03 2012 09:36 Obzy wrote: /Yayy excitement and anticipation Hmmm... it seems not. He seemed genuinely excited to play, so why the change of heart? He's even claimed he doesn't want to play anymore a couple of times. Again, this is all very convenient, and the reason that I now believe Obzy is Mafia Not convinced? How about this: On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote: <snip> I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. Why would Obzy care about blending in if he was town? He wouldn't. He also made a couple of posts stating that he was lurking, like X Y and Z. Whereas I did not consider myself to be lurking, he did yet didn't change his posting behaviour: On November 03 2012 15:16 Obzy wrote: @Alsn There really hasn't been enough said. His entire contribution to the thread was a quick jab at debears, talking for 40 minutes past when he said he was going to bed, and leaving. I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I have any idea. @Clarity Is lurking a bit, responding when relevant. Similar to Rad. Similar to myself but better, not like that's difficult :[. Also was watching MLG; hopefully tomorrow he has reads on people, rather than lurking and commenting when relevant to try to move discussion along. On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote: <snip> I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. My final point is this post: On November 05 2012 09:35 Obzy wrote: <snip> I think that your point here is ridiculous. Giving up is incredibly anti-town, and poor behavior. Up until right now, I have been stressed out and sort of unhappy about how much time this takes, but I won't ask for a replacement, I won't get modkilled, and I won't try to get myself mislynched just to avoid playing. Giving up, if you were town, is incredibly foul. You're not though, so it's okay. In this post he proclaims he's close to giving up, he barely cares. He implies he won't be posting as much and he hasn't. Looking at a singular post of his, it seems reasonable. He's not too confident but he's trying, right? But when you look at the bigger picture. When you look at the fact that there were so many "newb claims" that I didn't even list them all, when you compare his behaviour in the pregame to his behaviour now, I find it hard to believe he isn't just subtly playing the newb card. Obzy is Mafia. | ||
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On November 07 2012 06:48 Obzy wrote: Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this. How am I supposed to take this other than you're glad it was me who made a case on you, because right now I'm probably the least credible active player. Your whole "I feel defeated but I will not be defeated!" attitude makes no sense to me. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:15 Obzy wrote: I'm glad you are posting a case on me, specifically. Heh. Being called out in general gives a clear indication that my posting will be listened to when I respond, but getting called out by you makes my trust of Djo's JK claim increase, since he was been beating his head against you for hours this morning. You posting a case that I know is false makes me believe more in his case, which helps me trust his claim and innocence. A team composed of him and Sylver was only something I mused about if you were town. Maybe you're town and your case against me is just flat-out incorrect, you're just misguided. That's possible. But I think you think that too; you didn't vote. You clearly say "Obzy is Mafia" in fancy red highlighting and you do not vote. >_> ##Vote Obzy There are still 27 hours until lynch, but fine, there you go. If my case is incorrect, you should be able to point out why. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote: Date: 11/5/12 2:48 That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) My ambiguity is because the actual PM has quotes by marv, and will reveal my role. | ||
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How do you feel about Obzy's comments specifically addressed to me so far. | ||
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I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope. Claiming does nothing for me. | ||
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Do you believe his behavior in his last couple of posts is consistent with his behavior in the rest of the game Actually I'd like Alsn to answer this too. | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: That's why I want to see you dead. Some things point in direction that you are not blue, some things point in direction that you are not VT. Conclusion -> you are scum You've wanted me dead for the last 48 hours. Somehow your reasons keep changing but the outcome does not. I urge you to step back, take a break, and come back with fresh eyes. Then re-read. | ||
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I don't have a claim that would make me look more like town, isn't that obvious from the fact that I haven't claimed? | ||
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You told people last night that if I claimed today it would be fake. You are telling people today that any last minutes claims by me will be fake. You are telling me to claim so you can attack me. You KNOW there is a hole in my argument yet you CANNOT FIND IT. | ||
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Are you not going to address any of the contradictions I just pointed out? | ||
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This doesn't mean his argument is completely bogus. When I say "his reaction" I was talking about Obzy, since Djo asked me. | ||
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I honestly do not know. Sylver... maybe? Y u no address contradictions | ||
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These would be the contradictions: On November 07 2012 09:21 Clarity_nl wrote: You keep telling me to go scumhunt, and then you continuously assault me. You told people last night that if I claimed today it would be fake. You are telling people today that any last minutes claims by me will be fake. You are telling me to claim so you can attack me. You KNOW there is a hole in my argument yet you CANNOT FIND IT. | ||
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Oh I'm confusing myself now, I asked you earlier if obzy contradicted himself. I mean his behavior. Suddenly he is giving me advice and acting like an analytical genius. | ||
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You answered your own question. It's not hard for me to claim VT, regardless of my alignment. | ||
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I refuse to acknowledge any of your points as I've been over all of them before. The only new thing you said was that you claim I lied in one of my posts, yet instead of convincing people, you try to send me on a wild goose hunt. | ||
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This is by no means accurate of what I actually think, but under that assumption that would be my most likely scumteam. | ||
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Unless Rad is still around and has a question. I'll wait 10 minutes. | ||
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I am a Cop I tried to investigate Djodref N1 but I got roleblocked. @ Djo, please post the reason why you think my claim is fake immediately. Djo, I really don't like the way you played this game. You had a scumread on me D1, fine. But everytime I retorted to your cases, you kept coming back with crappier and crappier and crappier points. You got me stuck in a loop where I would check on the game, have 10 questions pointed at me, 9 of which I've already answered previously. Then after all that, you complain that I am not scumhunting enough. Then you tell me to scumhunt, and immediately ask me more questions. I don't like the fact that you were so pushy about me claiming either, with all the contradictions that came with that. I don't like the fact that while there was a lot of doubt in people's heads, Djo claiming blue somehow made everything he said correct? The confirmation bias is through the roof. How are you guys not seeing it? I would like to ask everyone: Didn't it feel too easy? Wasn't it noticable that we were getting nowhere for the last 48 hours? Even when Djo gets urged to give me breathing space he ignores it. Even when he gets told to stop hunting blues he ignores it (which, btw, debears caught on to, it's why he stopped). I finally get a chance to make a case, I make one on Obzy, no one refutes it but somehow this makes it more likely I'm scum in people's eyes. Then Obzy makes a... genuine? response. I don't like how he went about things, how he waited for someone to make a case on him to tell us he doesn't want to play no more. Clearly he was around, he had time to rebute almost instantly after my case went up, yet he hadn't posted for 2 hours. Still, I am inclined to believe him. ##Unvote So where does that leave us? Well that's the thing, I'm not sure. Why am I not sure? Because everyone has focused on me for the last 3 days, and who's fault is that? Town has been running in circles all along, and we've gotten to the point where everything depends on me flipping red, which I will not. If Djodref has been so certain all along, why does he not scumhunt for other people, or allow others to do so? The expected reaction to this post: People will quote me hinting at me being VT. My response: For every hint that I'm VT you will find one that I am blue. I kept the ambiguity to keep information from scum, something Djo has actively avoided. I am claiming out of desperation, because this means it's all or nothing. Alsn needs to come out and claim and we need to figure it out today, if I get lynched I fear the game is over. Please do not assume Obzy is town, and please do not assume da0ud is town. Push Sylver harder and question Alsn, as he has not been in a long time. Djo, if your claim is legit like I think it is, I believe you needed to take a break man. Asking questions threefold, all your logical fallacy, the complete disregard of questions asked to you in return. I don't understand why you would play like this. Notice how Rad claimed he felt after you asked him questions in a loop for a day. You did this to me for 3 days straight. I hope we can salvage this, I truly do. | ||
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The reason I said "marv told me" was because that was the only way to remain ambiguous about my role. No, even if you said "I won't share the flavor" doesn't make you 100% confirmed. You claim to have this magical proof that my claim is false, and I claim anyway. Now you are saying you can't tell us until the game ends? I've already explained my reasoning for pming marv despite knowing the VT flavor. It's that I wanted to know if scum knew flavor, and more importantly, I wanted to know if VT knew that the others knew flavor. If I investigate you, and I get nothing back, the conclusion is I got roleblocked. Do not argue semantics with me. | ||
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On November 07 2012 18:55 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Thank you ! Right now, I know for sure that you are 100% scum. Nice fakeclaim by the way Unfortunately, I cannot use my trump card against you right now ;( but I'm going to explain to you why I knew you were lying about being blue when this game ends. But it's mainly based on the fact that it is less likely for a blue to ask your question to marv than for a VT. If all the VT here had doubts about you going ask the question to the host, I know that he is lying when he says he did this as a blue. "It is mainly based on the fact that it is LESS LIKELY, that's why I'm 100% convinced." | ||
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Remember last game? Hear my fearmongering!" Stop being ambiguous, stop making contradictory points. You either have evidence, or you do not. If you were not able to share some information, why would you tell us you have information to be shared? This whole thing reeks of terrible town play. You cannot simply make a promise and then go "oh well... marv told me I couldn't... so..." Why wouldn't you ask marv before telling us you have this magical piece of the puzzle, or if you did and he replied "no, you can't say that" then why bring it up at all? Your entire case on me has boiled down to you ramming your head against me for the past 3 days, and convincing about half the people. Suddenly you have this macguffin that explains it all, but you can't tell us. What are you, the church of scientology? Make a case. Have no contradictions in it. Do not have points in it that I have addressed unless you have a rebuttal to those replies. Can you do this? | ||
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This is the game of Mafia. Guys, do not believe for the sake of believing. Believe in rational thinking and logical conclusions. | ||
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##Vote Clarity Thanks for the game! I hope some of you are interested in discussing it afterwards. I'm looking forward to seeing how this game ends. Good luck to all! PS: Djo don't apologize so much. | ||
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First things first, excuses! I was getting ill on saturday, and sunday I was feeling like crap. Djo asked me to comment on him and I just wanted to go to bed, and I slept from 1-6. Anyway, happens, I still learned a lot and I hope you guys did too! Djo, I think your intuition is amazing. You did however (in my eyes at least) overdo it when it came to pushing me. I don't agree with the fact that because my defense was logical instead of emotional it makes me more scummy, but maybe I'm wrong. But you went on for too long, your argument actually didn't make sense even more, even from my perspective as scum, and I think a better player than me might have talked the town into lynching you. I feel I was doing a good job discrediting you but it's hard to argue with your JK claim. I feel bad for taking advantage of the Cheese VT flavor claim. I hope no one looks down at me for doing this, I was cornered and about to be lynched. Rad didn't give me the idea of me having pmed marv btw. I had that in mind when I said "I can do that too. I don't wanna pay for no porn man. Doesn't mean anything" My original idea behind it however, was that the logical conclusion was that I would be blue. Of course I couldn't predict marv would come down from heaven, but maybe if I had more time I would have. Best post this game in my eyes is by Alsn: On November 08 2012 04:44 Alsn wrote: But there are a few things I'm looking forward to with this lynch. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a framer. Since I doubt Clarity would try and claim cop if there was(they'd have to assume that there's an actual cop in the game who could counter-claim, cause otherwise the framer role would be pretty silly). The only thing I can think of that speaks against that, is that in the case of a framer, scum would assume there is a cop, and having given up on clarity, they wanted to get the cop to reveal by sacrificing Clarity. So, assuming that I'm right and there's no framer, we can probably assume that if Clarity flips RB, his partner is a goon. While if he flips goon, the odds of his partner being roleblocker goes up dramatically(although framer isn't entirely out of the picture like I mentioned above). That is some amazing analysis right there. Kudos. My conclusion: I probably prefer to play as town. =] If people are willing to give me some feedback on my play, I would appreciate it! | ||
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edit: Basically, I claimed blue to pull you into the open. With the tiny tiny chance rad is bluffing and there's no counter claim. | ||
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Same goes for Rad. Don't get discouraged that you felt I wasn't scum, your arguments make sense. It's just with the combination of not contributing yourself (you like to sit back and figure stuff out, I get that, I really do!) it might look dodgy. Djo, I felt like saying I'm ill, true or not, will just seem like a convenient excuse. At least when others do this I always question it. | ||
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Just give me logical and simple and I'm happy =] Probably why I prefer town. | ||
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On November 09 2012 02:53 Djodref wrote: Oh really ? It was just the icing on the cake for me And the bad case from Clarity and Obzy counter-case was just sooo good Could you explain why it was a bad case? :p | ||
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On November 09 2012 03:25 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity I don't know, confirmation bias ?On a serious note, you did not show how his actions were mafia motivated. Some part of your case were also twisting his posts to serve your purpose. And the formatting did not help to get your main points against him. But mostly confirmation bias... Well, obviously. :D I figured that playing the "newbie card" is obviously scum motivated. It actually is anti-town. On the other hand every time Obzy posted he was correct in his analysis and forthcoming with ideas, that's the part I didn't mention. I did twist some posts, yes. I didn't really have much of a choice, he was my best candidate to try and lynch. Second was probably da0ud. | ||
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To be fair though, even as town, if someone like djo pushes me that hard odds are I'll just go into passive mode and wait until I look like town. I felt I got close this game. When I posted the case on obzy was the first time I wasn't being pressured, so I felt I stayed consistent with what (in my eyes) a townie would do. I don't know how to go: You're totally wrong! Here is my case on someone else! It just seems like I'm deflecting. | ||
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Why would you want to claim that what you have to say doesn't matter a lot? If you're town you want to convince others that you are right. Again, as I said though, Obzy actually did make good points and analyzed very well, but I was trying to de-emphasize that in my case.... because I was scum. | ||
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I generally thought out loud in the mafia QT even though me and sylver were on different schedules so hopefully you guys find some interesting stuff. | ||
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The answer is I shouldn't play with you guys cause you're too good, obviously. Rad, you lucky bugger, I want a HotS invite | ||
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