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I'll look at it, gimme a sec.
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Jesus debears, what is with you wanting me to give a percentage estimate of your fluff? When have I ever shown interest in it? That was a conversation between you and someone else (alsn and/or sylver) that suddenly you thought I was the original person.
Here's where you first ask me to come up with a percentage:
On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:58 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:49 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Holy shit, this flavor. What.
If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different. It means that you either 1) Think the people being active are townies 2) Know that the people being active are townies There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. Eh. I think it's very odd to say that townies have good dedication, and I'm one of the guys showing dedication, yet he votes me. Also, what do you think of this part of his post alsn? I kinda expected a bit more... substance in the thread by now. For a guy who hadn't posted anything, why is he calling all the actives out for substance? What good does that do? That part of his post, sure, I agree that it's somewhat a silly statement. It doesn't change the fact that you had been acting very strangely and quite counter-productive to town interests. From where I'm sitting his vote was merited. Especially in light of the fact that he said he meant it as a strong FoS as opposed to a rock solid reason for why you absolutely must be scum. You OMGUSing him most certainly doesn't damage his case. Also, it's unfortunate that I'm indirectly helping him defend himself, but at this point I simply find you/Djod more scummy than him and I figured the chance of him being scum was lower than the risk of you guys getting off the hook if I had stayed silent and just watched. It seems that from the latest developments that other people had the same thought. So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive? Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive I was sparking conversation dude OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far.
I never said you were posting so much fluff. I said that IF you're town, it would be a waste of time for Alsn to split up your entire filter based on fluff vs not fluff, and IF you're scum you clearly don't think that the percentage is damning so it would be a huge waste of time. I've restated it over and over again but you still haven't answered my question. You just keep wanting me to give you a percentage, which doesn't make any sense because I wasn't a part of any argument about the quality of your posts.
On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:
[quote]
Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation.
Explain it already!
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I think you're exaggerating the "suddenness" of it all considering it took him several hours before changing his mind. I quickly skimmed through the rest of your case and you're definitely not wrong in saying that he looks scummy however. I'll have to hold off on condemning him until I hear his explanation but at the very least at first glance your case has merit.
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@Rad
How about you read before jumping on me
On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:
[quote]Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less?
Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head
On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:
[quote]
That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming
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Lastly I do feel the need to point out that you can't exactly call him out for not answering your question when you've been unwilling to even acknowledge his own question(calling the value of your own question into question).
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EBWOP: His original criticism of you was that you were asking me to do a lot of work for little reason. You've only explained why you wanted me to answer, not why it merited me doing a lot of work summing up your filter.
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@Alsn
answered a long time ago. Look at the post above yours
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ebwop ninja'd
Let me try to state it to where you understand
1) You (slyverfyre) accused me of too much fluff without thinking of the content
2) Although there was fluff in my filter, it was a large filter that contained content
3) Thus, I wanted you to do that so you could see that there was plenty of content in my filter
Got it?
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Anyway, I'll take a more thorough look tomorrow, but on that point specifically I need to side with Rad, I agree on the 180 point and some of the other points(thread cop without sharing many reads himself) however.
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I see, yes, I can see the value in that, especially if you thought that we were ignoring your non-fluffy posts.
Rad, is that enough of an answer for you? As in, may I leave you two alone now without having to sweep the floor of broken bottles tomorrow?
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On November 04 2012 08:54 Rad wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Jesus debears, what is with you wanting me to give a percentage estimate of your fluff? When have I ever shown interest in it? That was a conversation between you and someone else (alsn and/or sylver) that suddenly you thought I was the original person. Here's where you first ask me to come up with a percentage: On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:58 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:49 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Holy shit, this flavor. What.
If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different. It means that you either 1) Think the people being active are townies 2) Know that the people being active are townies There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. Eh. I think it's very odd to say that townies have good dedication, and I'm one of the guys showing dedication, yet he votes me. Also, what do you think of this part of his post alsn? I kinda expected a bit more... substance in the thread by now. For a guy who hadn't posted anything, why is he calling all the actives out for substance? What good does that do? That part of his post, sure, I agree that it's somewhat a silly statement. It doesn't change the fact that you had been acting very strangely and quite counter-productive to town interests. From where I'm sitting his vote was merited. Especially in light of the fact that he said he meant it as a strong FoS as opposed to a rock solid reason for why you absolutely must be scum. You OMGUSing him most certainly doesn't damage his case. Also, it's unfortunate that I'm indirectly helping him defend himself, but at this point I simply find you/Djod more scummy than him and I figured the chance of him being scum was lower than the risk of you guys getting off the hook if I had stayed silent and just watched. It seems that from the latest developments that other people had the same thought. So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive? Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive I was sparking conversation dude OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. I never said you were posting so much fluff. I said that IF you're town, it would be a waste of time for Alsn to split up your entire filter based on fluff vs not fluff, and IF you're scum you clearly don't think that the percentage is damning so it would be a huge waste of time. I've restated it over and over again but you still haven't answered my question. You just keep wanting me to give you a percentage, which doesn't make any sense because I wasn't a part of any argument about the quality of your posts. On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:
[quote]
Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. Explain it already!
@Rad
Was this a response to my case on you?
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Anyway, I'm really out now. I know first hand how frustrating it can be when defending yourself but at the very least try and keep it civil as flaming back and forth is anti-town(as demonstrated by mine and nackh's screaming match during D3 of XXIX).
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On November 04 2012 08:32 debears wrote:Sudden 180 on me+ Show Spoiler +After my obsy post, Rad didn't immediately jump on it saying I was attacking Obsy. This is what he said On November 03 2012 13:42 Rad wrote:
@Clarity
That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it.
@Obzy
If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you.
Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. In this post, he doesn't seem to think I'm attacking Obsy. He seems to think that I'm giving Obsy some questions to kick start his participation. Read the last line. Yet, he suddenly turns into this after I ask him for reads on sylver/dau0d/djo and tell him there's no reason to not scumhunt because you might make a few bad cases On November 04 2012 00:46 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:10 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 00:06 Rad wrote:On November 03 2012 18:43 Clarity_nl wrote:
Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX.
@ Rad
Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend?
I felt a bit of inig coming through in obzy. Overwhelmed, confused, but potentially useful to town. I didn't want to see him shy away due to how fast the conversations were coming and going here. I wanted him to open up and let his thoughts be known. Yes, I'll be watching MLG pretty much every minute it's on until it's done on Sunday. I do that for every MLG I get a chance to watch. My fiance is working all day today so all I got is MLG and this newbie mafia to pay attention to :D Might play a game here and there (ns2), but I expect a lot of my time today to be dedicated towards this game while watching MLG. As for my being more careful, it's based strictly on how I changed over the course of last game. I based my cases on a lot of stupid things and confirmation bias but couldn't ever realize it until after townies started flipping when I was sure they were scum. I want to avoid that this time and at least have some more solid reasoning when I decide to center in on someone. Rad, alot of early d1 cases will end up being stupid in hindsight. Hapa, a good player, even stated so in GSL III I believe. That doesn't excuse you from scumhunting. I understand getting Obsy to post to avoid having him lurk, but you seemed too focused on it. What are your thoughts on Dau0d/syler/Djo from the last couple of pages? I haven't said I don't plan on scumhunting. What gives you that impression? You're coming to a false conclusion on what I've been talking about. Concerning obzy, what do you mean I seemed too focused on it? I tried to help him understand my stance on lurkers because he had some issues with it. Then I had to jump in and make sure he didn't get super demotivated because YOU were calling his posts useless and worthless. What does a town want a newbie town to do? Learn how to play the game and be useful to town. What does a scum want a newbie town to do? Feel scared at the thought of being terrible at the game, back off, say nothing out of fear. How exactly are you helping town by talking shit to the new guy at the beginning of d1? He is super defensive. He suddenly changes his opinions on my post on obsy for literally no reason. Oh and I posted this earlier after my original obsy post. On November 03 2012 13:47 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:42 Rad wrote:
@Clarity
That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it.
@Obzy
If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you.
Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. Yeah. That case is in no way saying omg he's scum. It's more of light pressure to get him to state some views, be more active in this. However, Rad, what I would like to know is that, although you are obviously following the thread in the shadows, you aren't posting to much. Why is that? My intent on making a post on obsy seems pretty clear to me that I was trying to get him to be active. Yet, Rad somehow interprets my post as an attack on Obsy's ego. On November 04 2012 01:27 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 01:16 debears wrote:
@Rad
I concede on the worthless point.
Also, there are two ways of encouraging newbies to post
1) Pressure
2) Kindness
I chose 1 initially. Notice my reaction after Obsy responds. Would you say that is talking shit to him? Pressure's fine with me. That wasn't pressure though. That was an attack on his ego and the only motivation I can see for it is to shut him down fast and create a lurker out of him (which, as you know, many of us would want to lynch). What reaction of yours to his response are you talking about? All I see is "So what is your exact read on me? Scum, slightly scum, null, slightly town, or town?" but that's just a question, not motivational or de-motivational. Did he forget that I told Obsy to go get coaching help? How is my original post on Obsy an "attack on his ego?
At the time, I just noticed you threw a bunch of questions at obzy. I hadn't actually read through them yet. I refreshed before posting and noticed that you had questions for him, so saw it as a good point to enhance my thoughts about "just be open and helpful."
When I was talking about "ignore anything about you being useless", I was actually referring to this post:
On November 03 2012 13:28 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:26 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:22 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 13:11 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 13:04 Clarity_nl wrote:
Okay re-reading your post you're saying we shouldn't focus on one/two people, instead considering everyone and not consolidate on a lynch? @ ClarityExactly, I think you everyone should just vote for his top scumread while giving enough reason to do so and then we start again from there and see who is likely to be lynched, be it 2 or 3 players. I think it's the best way to use plurality lynch. Considering only 2 possibilities narrows the discussion and allows mafia players to have some excuse to lynch town (cf Cheese last game lynching daoud in the daoud/ini match-up). The downfall is that the end of the day could be a bit messy. seriously.....why are we having to explain this? 1) Scumhunt 2) Vote for your top scumread 3) When the voting comes down to 2 candidates and lynch is near, pick one of two said candidates and give reasoning why you're voting them Is that clear enough for all of you to understand? Please stop talking about policy @ debearsMy point is that it would benefit us to consider more than 2 candidates for the lynch. Anyway it's too late to discuss about it now, I was just answering Clarity's question about it. By the way it's not policy, it's lynch mechanics  More semantics, anyways it's useless. What do you think of Obsy's, Dau0d's, and Sylver's epic uselessness so far?
When i went back to look over your posts, I ran into the long post giving obzy questions. At that point, I noticed you threw around the words useless and worthless. When I discussed it further, I believe I had forgotten about the original post (that I quoted above).
To clarify, here was the order of things:
1. You call obzy, da0ud, and sylver useless.
2. I start making a post to obzy to help him rest assured that he shouldn't be discouraged by this statement.
3. Before I post, I refresh the page and see that you have questions for him. I take that as an opportunity to enhance my post by pointing out that he has an easy opportunity to answer some questions now and open up. To be honest here, at this point I'm not even thinking "debears called him useless" I'm just thinking "someone called him useless and I don't want him to get discouraged" and then I notice that you've got some questions.
4. When I revisit it and make a case about you being anti-town with your attacks, I pretty much forgot about the original post, and at that point I finally read through your post of questions, which I built the case around.
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On November 04 2012 09:06 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 08:54 Rad wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Jesus debears, what is with you wanting me to give a percentage estimate of your fluff? When have I ever shown interest in it? That was a conversation between you and someone else (alsn and/or sylver) that suddenly you thought I was the original person. Here's where you first ask me to come up with a percentage: On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:58 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:49 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Holy shit, this flavor. What.
If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different. It means that you either 1) Think the people being active are townies 2) Know that the people being active are townies There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. Eh. I think it's very odd to say that townies have good dedication, and I'm one of the guys showing dedication, yet he votes me. Also, what do you think of this part of his post alsn? I kinda expected a bit more... substance in the thread by now. For a guy who hadn't posted anything, why is he calling all the actives out for substance? What good does that do? That part of his post, sure, I agree that it's somewhat a silly statement. It doesn't change the fact that you had been acting very strangely and quite counter-productive to town interests. From where I'm sitting his vote was merited. Especially in light of the fact that he said he meant it as a strong FoS as opposed to a rock solid reason for why you absolutely must be scum. You OMGUSing him most certainly doesn't damage his case. Also, it's unfortunate that I'm indirectly helping him defend himself, but at this point I simply find you/Djod more scummy than him and I figured the chance of him being scum was lower than the risk of you guys getting off the hook if I had stayed silent and just watched. It seems that from the latest developments that other people had the same thought. So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive? Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive I was sparking conversation dude OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. I never said you were posting so much fluff. I said that IF you're town, it would be a waste of time for Alsn to split up your entire filter based on fluff vs not fluff, and IF you're scum you clearly don't think that the percentage is damning so it would be a huge waste of time. I've restated it over and over again but you still haven't answered my question. You just keep wanting me to give you a percentage, which doesn't make any sense because I wasn't a part of any argument about the quality of your posts. On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:
[quote]
Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. Explain it already! @Rad Was this a response to my case on you?
It was a response to your last point about me. Also I had been wondering when I would bring that up again, as I said I would, and this seemed like a good time.
I've now responded to your 180 point as well. I'll look into responding to the other points but I may or may not get to them tonight (going out in a few). You seemed to think your 180 point was most valid so I wanted to make sure I responded to it. I responded to your last point first because it's the one that's most frustrating to me at the moment, due to you never answering my question and insistence on me giving you a percentage.
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@Rad
When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him?
2) Go ask for some coaching help (It'll help you improve more quickly)
That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias
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On November 04 2012 09:23 debears wrote:@Rad When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him? That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias
Town motivation: urge people to get help from their coach so they play the game better.
Scum motivation: use demeaning words like useless and worthless and then tell them they should go talk to their coach so they think they're bad at the game
That piece is a null tell so don't use it as a defense on you being an anti-town with your attacks.
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On November 04 2012 08:58 debears wrote:@RadHow about you read before jumping on me Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:
[quote]
How much fluff do you actually see in my filter?
Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:
[quote]
Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming
You think I missed this before, but I didn't. It's an invalid point for me. I don't care how much fluff/content you have. It hasn't been a concern of mine. My concern was that there's no town motivation to make another person waste time going through your posts. Only scum motivation.
You're claiming there's a town motivation to help point out that your 65% is useful content, but who the hell cares? The fluff argument wasn't going anywhere, it didn't have any potential to get you lynched at that point. You wanted alsn to spend his time reading through your filters, separating fluff from good content and coming up with a percentage just so you could make that point?! If you're town, why would you want that instead of him focusing on hunting down scum? If you're scum, I GET IT. You wanted him to waste his time.
You could have just as easily come out and said it if you really thought it defended you against his fluff argument.
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On November 04 2012 09:29 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 09:23 debears wrote:@Rad When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him? 2) Go ask for some coaching help (It'll help you improve more quickly) That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias Town motivation: urge people to get help from their coach so they play the game better. Scum motivation: use demeaning words like useless and worthless and then tell them they should go talk to their coach so they think they're bad at the game
That piece is a null tell so don't use it as a defense on you being an anti-town with your attacks.
I've told people to go talk to their coaches before. Ask Djo. I've gotten coaching in each of my games. That in no way means I think you're bad. It's not like I'm sitting high and mighty telling everyone they suck. I know how bad I am.
The premise of your argument on Obsy is that I was attacking him as a person, instead of calling him out for his actions in the game. You're taking this wayyyyy too far.
Funny thing is that Obsy even agrees with me, yet you keep holding on to this point. That is scummy or extremely misguided
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On November 04 2012 09:44 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 08:58 debears wrote:@RadHow about you read before jumping on me On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:
[quote]
That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:
[quote]
What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly?
"50% fluff, scum!!!"
"only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!"
I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number.
If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming You think I missed this before, but I didn't. It's an invalid point for me. I don't care how much fluff/content you have. It hasn't been a concern of mine. My concern was that there's no town motivation to make another person waste time going through your posts. Only scum motivation. You're claiming there's a town motivation to help point out that your 65% is useful content, but who the hell cares? The fluff argument wasn't going anywhere, it didn't have any potential to get you lynched at that point. You wanted alsn to spend his time reading through your filters, separating fluff from good content and coming up with a percentage just so you could make that point?! If you're town, why would you want that instead of him focusing on hunting down scum? If you're scum, I GET IT. You wanted him to waste his time. You could have just as easily come out and said it if you really thought it defended you against his fluff argument.
When someone discredits me for a bullshit reason, I will defend myself and straighten the point. You say the fluff argument wasn't going anywhere, except that others like Alsn agreed with it. CC went so far to apologize about his fluff. Sylver's argument convinced enough people at that point that I needed to address it.
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On November 04 2012 07:58 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
I'm semi-lurking, but I'm active. Holy contradiction batman.
To clarify-
I meant that you're clearly reading the thread actively, but you hadn't really had a tendency to comment on anything except things involving Djo. Active as in, at your computer. Semi-lurking as in, posting enough to not be called out for lurking. It was a bad word choice though.
Thanks for the reads, that's what I was looking for.
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EPT
