EPTOf course I'm going to re-interpret my posts on OF other players.
Typed that one w/out proofreading, weeee.
GSL Mini Mafia III - Page 6
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Typed that one w/out proofreading, weeee. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Anywho, this is fairly good, because there are two people in particular who decided to chime into our argument without much to offer. Drazak and Vaderseven. Drazak On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote: Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again. This post was such an oddly timed comment. In particular, Z-Bo had a lot of suspicion on him, and he immediately soft-defends him and takes no stance. It's such an irrelevant comment, and I don't like how he's answering a question for me. He does this one more time with iamperfection: On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote: I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier. Now Draz is lynch-bait, so I'm a bit hesitant about jumping on this, but this looks pretty scummy at face value. Vaderseven: On October 23 2012 04:28 vaderseven wrote: Also zboson, i wouldnt wipe my ass with anything you gave me jerk. This is just the strangest comment. He jumps in and pretty much calls him scum, despite his overall very neutral reads on players, as well as his general distrust of D1 reads. Pretty odd. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=28#541 (on Draz and v7) | ||
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Hapahauli
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##Vote Vaderseven The only players who haven't given me some reason to think they're town are v7, drazak, and marv. Obviously marv is an unrealistic lynch today, and I don't like lynching veterans early (nor do I have any rationale for lynching him whatsoever). And even drazak was atleast eager in the early game and was pretty quick/candid at defending himself early in the game - so I guess he's given me some reason to think he's town as well. We have to lynch someone eventually, and I'm tired of floundering around. At the end of the day, v7 has had 72 hours to come up with something, and he's only given us this: On October 23 2012 04:26 vaderseven wrote: Ok reread entire thread again. Reading filters now. Keirath- Very neutral or careful play. Somewhat defensive. Makes a solid lil case on zboson. Neutral to town read for now. Hapahauli- Dear lord hates lurkers ol. I dont like pushing so fast for a hammer... ill forgive that cuz of my obv involvement in that situation. Do stop thinking active=town and vice versa though. I have seen many town loses get attributed to that thinking. I like how you say your vote and threat towards me of hammer is more just to pressure to vote. Thats good play. Overall very neutral read. Btw, i do appoligize for having a few days o hellish work there but I am used to day 1 being a meh so I figured come in all guns firing next week... whatever. I like the no deadline for this speficic circumstance. More filter reading to come, gotta go on sales floor for a few hours first... be back in lime 2-4 hours. On top of his actions during "DeePgate" and the "ZBo Affair", I'm comfortable lynching him right now. At some point we're going to have to lynch someone, and I think I've given v7 enough time to make a contribution. He hasn't, and I want him dead. | ||
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Regarding Z-Bo/Kei The "99.9%" thing seems like very misplaced rhetoric. Unless there's something you're withholding from us, Z-Bo's actions so far in no way make him 99.9% scum. I see you posting a lot of "weak reasoning," but so what? Fact of the matter is, there wasn't much reasoning to discuss on the v7 lynch. He was inactive, hadn't been contributing, and therefore some of us found him scummy. I can see how this can be interpreted as scummy, but "99.9%" is farfetched at best. In fact, what do you make about the rest of Z-Bo's play? It's important to take into consideration more than just his stuff on v7. Is there anything else about his play that suggests scum Z-Bo? The context of his play, in particularly his fearlessness, points to the exact opposite methinks. But your attitude shift from "I don't wanna make a D1 read" helplessness to "99.9% scum" on Z-Boson is really really weird. I'm not sure if it makes you scummy or not, but it is strange. I'll have to mull this one over. Regarding Drazak I don't know what to make of his in-activity at all. However, I kinda think he's town due to process of elimination (see below) Regarding my Scumreads Iamperfection Marvellosity The gist of it is that Marv's posting is really detached from this game, and is something I never see in his town games, but very frequently in his "lazier" scumgames. Iamperfection also has this golden post here: On October 22 2012 22:47 iamperfection wrote: i would hold a candle light vigil in your honor if you flipped town. i think its a moot point to keep hammering this point. you even said yourself its a terrible mindset that has gotten you lynched in the past. also its concerning that you called out for it in gsl I. you were scum remember. Me representing the town i am asking you to change nay begging you to change. If you are scum continue i have no problem pushing a lynch on you at this point. Shape up or die. ...where he basically calls Kei scum outright on Day 1 yet keeps his vote on v7 the entire day. I'm also sure I'm not mis-interpreting his "candle-light vigil" comment since he clarified his scumread on Kei here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 Also, I noticed that he had an "FOS" on me right after the lynch deadline, but has done nothing so far to push his read, despite me not posting in the thread at all in the last ~16 hours or so. He's also just really really sure about Draz being town, which is odd to me. I know I had a town read on Draz before, but so clearly declaring him town is completely unjustified in light of his complete absence from the thread after early D1. | ||
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Hapahauli
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Howwwwweva, my read on iamperfection is much stronger - what are your thoughts on him? Lastly, I find it odd that you chose to go after me with that remark (apparently you're suggesting that me having a scumread on you = me being scummy?) instead of commenting on iamperfection at all. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On October 24 2012 02:19 Keirathi wrote: Where did I ever say I had a strong town read on iamp? I said I had a slightly town read on him for the early tone of his posting, but that his later posting feels much more careful and like his scum tone. Thoughts on my iamp case good sir? | ||
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Hapahauli
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You not pushing your case isn't the main issue here (well it IS an issue, but not the main point). The concern I have is that you basically called Kei scum, and simply left your vote on v7 the entire time. What you post after the fact - what you said you should have done in retrospect - has no bearing on what you did. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 24 2012 04:39 austinmcc wrote: Hapa, does iamperfection's very early vote on DP affect your read at all? No, he's capable of doing that as both alignments. He voted early as scum in Aperture 2 Mafia, and votes early as town a lot in his other games. In fact, I find him pointing to his GSL II meta in his defense really odd, since Aperture 2 was his most recent scumgame. On October 24 2012 04:24 Keirathi wrote: I think your point about iamp calling me scum but keeping his vote on v7 would be the strongest point you made, BUT, he also said he had a very strong scum read on v7. It would make sense, if iamp is town, to leave his vote on one strong read when the other strong read isn't gaining any traction. This is a valid point, however, I still think he's scum for additional reasons mentioned in my case (strangely confident Draz town read, un-pushed FOS on me). I also liked the point about how apologetic he is that you brought up. It's very different from townie iamp. His entire defense to me also has been really really passive, which IMO confirms my read on him. | ||
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Regarding iamp's "candle-light" thing, I initially thought that was the case as well (responding to Kei). However, iamperfection's more recent post (his clarification of that post) suggests my interpretation: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=31#607 In it, he very clearly refers to that post as having a scumread on him. Regarding misrepresenting iamp's suspicions (in particular the vote on v7 vs. Kei's suspicions) Yah that's totally my bad. However, my other points still stand, namely his random FOS on me, his town read on Draz, and more recently, his uncharacteristically passive defense. And btw, I find it funny you still haven't commented on iamperfection's alignment at all. But I'm working on a case on you anyway - it'll take a little while to type. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On October 24 2012 06:39 Keirathi wrote: Marv clearly said earlier that he was getting townie vibes from iamp. Well I mean sufficient comments - just saying "townie vibes" isn't exactly useful. And geezus iamp - all of a sudden you bring the bravado the second Kei and I call you out for it? | ||
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Hapahauli
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It's fairly hard to catch a player like marv on traditional reads, because his scum-play is devoid of egregious tells. However, when marv has a really long string of scumgames, he tends to get lazy, and his attitude begins to show. DeathNote Mini is a great example of this, and everything I've written in this game applies to that game as well. When marv gets lazy, he is very catchable on meta, and I've gathered several meta reads on him this game. Individually, I don't think they are damning, however, put together, and I believe they point strongly toward's marv's lazy-scum meta. ***Before I continue, let me state Hapa's policy-lynch rule #2*** If Marv is alive at lylo - LYNCH HIM. No exceptions. Onward ahoy. 1) Marv's Lack of Suspicion 2) Over-Consistency 3) Emotional Detachment 4) The Insta-Lynch Mechanic Marv's Lack of Suspicion First let's take a look a town marv. Town marv is a very naturally suspicious person - he's someone who jumps on people for bad logic, and his natural inclination is to see scummy behavior in said bad logic. I want to point out a post in Rockband Mini that marv made - I think it exemplifies his townie thought process very well: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=23#445 In this post, marv is suspicious to slightly suspicious of the following people: Myself, HiroPro, mkfuba, Zeph, austinmcc, and prplzh. That's 6 people - half of the players in the game. In addition, take a look at his filter in the recently-concluded "Clothes Mini" (he's Harry Tasker). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374903&user=286145 Read it, and see how many people he's suspicious of on Day 1. He jumps around a lot on suspicion and really guns for people. Now let's compare it to this game's marv http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=10#197 In one of his opening posts, he has town reads on DP, Austin, and Drazak. In addition, he has been readily defending Z-Boson from Kei, indicating he has some sort of town-read on him as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=35#687 Furthermore, he recently had town-vibes on iamperfection. That's 5 town reads in a game of 9 players - completely opposite of town marv. This is not "naturally-suspicious" marv - this is a completely different character. Over Consistency Marv's Opening Post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=10#197 That leaves the two people I'm most interested in today, vader7 and Keirathi. Mebbe I'm about to look quite hypocritical citing activity and investment, but what can you do ^^ This is rather interesting, because marv tunnels v7 and Kei exclusively for the entirety of Day 1. This is so damn off from anything resembling his town play - town marv jumps around a lot, readily flip-flops reads, and is very reactionarily suspicious to players. Again, I refer you to Rockband Mini and Clothes Mini to see the contrast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374903&user=286145 ^ In his clothes mini filter (especially relevant since it is also an insta-lynch game), look at how his suspicions pan out over the course of the game. He initially declares Ben a scumread, but then picks up and drops suspicions rapidly. He votes Ben, then John, then Ben again, then on Alan, then back to John... you get the idea. He cycles his votes several times throughout the game, whereas, he's only voted ONCE in this game (on v7). Rockband Mini is similar: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=140487 He declares Hiro his first scumread, then jumps onto Palmar (in pure OMGUS), then rails on players throught the day. His votes cycle from Hiro, to Palmar, to Austin, to Prplzh, all the while being generally suspicious of many players. Again, compare that to his tunneling of Kei and v7 throughout this game, and his solitary vote on v7. Look at the above two games, then look at his gameplay here. He's only voted on one player, and his contributions on D1 were entirely spent on tunneling v7 and Kei. He hasn't been suspicious of one other person in this game on D1. Emotional Detatchment This is something more that I have a feel for when reading his filter this game. Marv is just very collected and emotionally devoid when pursuing reads. I looked through his entire filter, and this is the only thing I could come up with that could be interpreted as any emotion at all: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=22#436 He's seemingly pissed off at Kei and uses a lot of rhetoric... but then the rest of his posts toward Kei are remarkably civil, even though he is one of marv's top scumreads. Let's compare that to other games: On September 19 2012 01:53 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Palmar fuck you On September 19 2012 01:57 marvellosity wrote: Palmar is being awful he should die he read my alignment correctly in NMM3 and I refuse to believe he'd so arbitrarily get it so wrong here straight OMGUS, deal with it (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=140487¤tpage=2) Just read page 2 of his filter in Rockband. His filter in Clothes Mini shows emotion, but in a more lost-townie way: On October 20 2012 02:53 Harry Tasker wrote: fuck me I'm so lost On October 19 2012 09:57 Harry Tasker wrote: I think it's negligent, but I also get townie feelings elsewhere in his filter (his discussions with me on John). Ugh. Actually I don't like how he's (not) pushed your case either. I just find Ben significantly scummier - I don't see any townieness in his posts whereas I can see townieness in Alex's. You should get the idea - just skim through his filters. The Insta-Lynch Mechanic I want to take a look at Clothes Mini and his attitude near the lynch deadline, as opposed to his attitude in this game. In this game, he has had one vote (on v7). He is remarkably clear and confident about who he wants his vote to be on: On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote: My head hurts. Now I know what it looks like when me and VE shout at each other for pages ^^ Unless I missed it, I don't think Z-Bo ever answer Kei's original question of where his v7 scumread appeared from? I've just been through Z-Bo's filter and it indeed just appears and I can't find an explanation. Hopefully I'm not being a fucking dumbass. Z-Bo, explain please? Further, what is your current read on vader and why? Hapa has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post. When two people are shouting at each other, the natural scum reaction is to let it roll, or even throw wood on to the fire, rather than actually do anything about making it stop. On a little sidenote, it's why I found austin's play kinda adorable, because he was trying to push a policy idea but was being roundly ignored, so his reaction was to keep pushing the same idea in the same way, only to be unsurprisingly ignored again  Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it. Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang. ##Vote vaderseven. This isn't individually suspicious, but take a look at how indecisive he is in Clothes Mini near the deadline: On October 20 2012 02:49 Harry Tasker wrote: ... Also at the moment I just don't want to lynch Alex. Maybe he's scum manipulating me, but ugh, I just don't think so. This leaves me lynching into Alan Schaefer, John Matrix, and Jack Slater. Due to busyness I've not re-read Alan's filter yet, but I will read his and Jack's this evening and see if I can come to a conclusion. On October 20 2012 08:01 Harry Tasker wrote: From a gameplay point of view I'd have to be as certain as can be we're definitely hitting red and I don't think I am. And if we lynch John and he flips town then town was already given a crippling disadvantage to start with given not posting at all is both within the rules AND a strong scum strategy. From a personal point of view the game is already ruined if John is town. This isn't a full-sized normal, or even a fucking mini with 12 players or whatever. 1/7 of our players isn't here. That's a really large chunk of the game. That just fucking sucks. ##Unvote ##Vote: John Matrix On October 20 2012 08:18 Harry Tasker wrote: What is there to talk about? Actually I think Douglas has a quite decent chance of flipping scum. But it doesn't supercede what I just wrote above. Concluding Thoughts In addition to all of the above, marv just really hasn't done anything to convince me that he's town. He's provided very little in the ways of original analysis on Day 1 - something he's very good about doing in his town play. Finally, I suggest you all take a look at his filter in DeathNote Mini - it's strikingly similar to the patterns I've described above: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&user=140487 Notably: 1) He opens with a scumread on BlackMamba24, votes him and never finds anyone else suspicious for the rest of D1 2) He does not jump around with votes/suspicions at all and is remarkably consistent. 3) He is very emotionally detached I'm thinking at this point that marv has a higher chance of flipping scum than iamperfection. | ||
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