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On October 08 2012 08:16 gonzaw wrote:
Jingle, I'm tired of you doing this shit to me. Just fucking stop.
I hope you are scum this game, I really do; I won't be depressed once the game ends at least.
Stop doing what? Trying to lynch scum? How about I keep trying until it works instead? I can't much help it if the town refuses to see it, but your whole "waaah Jingle's a meany head" thing is getting ridiculous. Lynching scum is part of the game. You've been my top scumread the entire game. I push lynching you.
That's how it works. If you don't like it, stop acting like scum.
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On October 08 2012 08:20 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote:On October 08 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote:
Jingle, why were you here right before the deadline and didn't even try to get me lynched, specially when me/Draz/etc started voting for No-lynch and people started to back off Draz? I was trying most of the day. Don't try and turn this into ME somehow being scummy, when everybody has listened to my reasons and said they still prefer Draz, what was I supposed to do? I made an analysis about how you are likely town which means I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU STOP OVERREACTING GODDAMITIt's something odd I noticed and wanted addressed. You know, Keirathi once unvoted Draz, austin once said he'd vote for either me or Draz, there was quite a span of time where you could have used the momentum to lynch me. Considering your behaviour I know you would have tried (although you would have been unsuccessful I suppose). You haven't really tried to get me lynched D3 that much.
At the risk of sounding repetitive... how many times are people going to ignore him saying shit that makes it sound like he skipped 80% of the thread?
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Remember saying this to Ghost?
On October 07 2012 09:29 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2012 09:28 ghost_403 wrote:
Why's that? Just his general behavior during the game, or is there some deeper logic to your choice? How about because I'm the Black Scum perhaps? I dunno ghost, read the fricking thread please.
That was part of you making a case against him. I did, in fact, make an effort to get you lynched, I just gave up when pretty much everyone said they preferred Draz over you. Sure, I could have cluttered the ever-loving hell out of the thread, but that wouldn't have done much good, the majority of the complaints about my case on you involve presentation.
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On October 08 2012 08:33 gonzaw wrote:
When did you start being active? As in, when did you come back to the thread?
Right before the deadline or before?
I've been watching it on and off all day. Granted, when Draz started going roleclaim crazy, I knew there had suddenly stopped being even the slightest point in trying to convince people, but most of the morning, I was doing what I could to push you.
Which is about the polar opposite of what you're saying I did.
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On October 08 2012 12:48 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 10:03 HiroPro wrote:On October 08 2012 09:44 strongandbig wrote:
Hiro! who would you rather lynch tomorrow ghost or gonzaw and why gonzaw. He made a statement to the effect that if JingleHell didn't make a case against him that didn't revolve around himself/talk about misrepresentation/stuff like that, that he would consider him scum. JingleHell made a case that was pretty much the stuff gonzaw said he didn't want (and the way gonzaw treated the case also pretty much said gonzaw considered it trash like that), but he still just went with the "JingleHell is bad townie" view, even though what he said before suggested he would do the opposite. Then it's the fact that gonzaw seems to be alternately goading JingleHell into going after him and alternately complaining about how JingleHell keeps coming after about him - in part of his response to me about this point he seemed happy about JingleHell leaving off him for a bit and now he's wondering why JingleHell didn't go full throttle after him on day 3. Partly also cause he could be either red or black mafia too. That's a bad reason for thinking I'm scum. Complaining Jingle only does against me: because it's the only thing he does and it's anti-town as fuck Complaining that Jingle doesn't go against me when he had the chance to: because since it's the only thing he does, and if I assume he's tunneling townie, then that's what he would have done, so him not doing it is odd. What would be the correct thing to do for Jingle that I wouldn't complain?: Take a step back, stop assuming I'm scum, try to get other people's reasoning instead of just trying to get people to lynch me, maybe even read past games of mine and compare my attitude in them, stop bitching against me and cool down, and contribute about other players and try to find scum in them as well. When Jingle starts doing that, or just part of that, you won't see me complain at all. Hiro, what do you think of austin?
Good, you answered him before I went to bed. I didn't want to post in between, because I wanted to see how you'd respond without me diving in there. Still martyr-ish, and kinda flies in the face of a recent one.
On October 08 2012 08:20 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote:On October 08 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote:
Jingle, why were you here right before the deadline and didn't even try to get me lynched, specially when me/Draz/etc started voting for No-lynch and people started to back off Draz? I was trying most of the day. Don't try and turn this into ME somehow being scummy, when everybody has listened to my reasons and said they still prefer Draz, what was I supposed to do? I made an analysis about how you are likely town which means I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU STOP OVERREACTING GODDAMIT
I think I've done a better job of explaining why I think you're scum, even if my presentation hasn't been amazing, than you have of responding to it. You have yet to answer the majority of my complaints. Most of them get ignored, shit-talked, or contradictory responses. Or your classic "Jingle so mean to me".
So, when did you go from not accusing me and wanting to ignore my tunneling, to thinking it's scummy? I assume it's got everything to do with what different people have to say.
My case against you may be largely made up of things that are open to interpretation, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad case. There's very little hard evidence in Mafia, and enough circumstantial evidence should eventually be pretty damning.
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On October 08 2012 13:08 gonzaw wrote:I'll admit not everything you say is "bad", but most of it, or at least what I notice whenever I see your posts is. If it's the stuff about iamperfection, or being "wishy-washy" on D1, or "blue-fishing", yes they are not "completely stupid points", but I explained myself on them. Show nested quote +So, when did you go from not accusing me and wanting to ignore my tunneling, to thinking it's scummy? I assume it's got everything to do with what different people have to say. Whenever I start doubting my reads I always start thinking "Jingle's actions could come from scum", and of course you tunneling me like that easily makes me think you can be scum, and then I start to doubt you. If all the guys I think are scum flip town, then I have no choice but to rethink my stance on you. I really want to see you contributing about other players. So far I think you only made like 1 post in the past 72 hours or so about some people you thought could be scum and other than "Draz seems like a VI" or "Hiro is innocuous" I don't see you posting thoughts or reads on anybody at all. That's what makes me doubt my read on you most of the time Show nested quote +You have yet to answer the majority of my complaints. Most of them get ignored, shit-talked, or contradictory responses. Or your classic "Jingle so mean to me". I think I respond to all of yours. Unless it's those snarky comments you make some times after I make a post which I don't see the point in responding to other than saying "that's wrong".
Relevant part of D2, my vote was SNB (even after the claim, due to being out.) I've contributed reads and discussion about loads of people, and amended them over time. The fact is, I can't even begin to imagine a town motivation for how much of what I do you've ignored, merely on the premise of you being my primary target.
I've gotten into heated debates with most of the people in the game about posts of theirs that came off scummy. I've voted other people besides you on multiple occasions. I've amended reads based on discussion, and listened to reason. The fact is, regardless of how poor a job I've done lending credence to it, you're the only person who's consistently come off as more scummy than not throughout the course of the game.
The fact is, you can say what you like about it, but, deliberate or not, you're ignoring a lot of my play this game. Your opinion of me changes almost every time you post talking about me, frequently depending on who's active in the thread.
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If you go to the effort of posting your past games in your profile, you're probably aware of your meta as a tool, and not above using it to your benefit, so no, I won't check your other games.
Keirathi, Austin, basically anyone else, can you confirm for the guy who's skipping inconvenient parts of my filter that I've discussed things besides him, even if pushing him has been my primary thing, due to nearly everything he does seeming somewhat scummy to me?
And yes, your opinion of me changes incessantly. It's back and forth between "Probably bad town" and "possibly scum" and "if you don't do X I'll get you lynched" on a rather regular basis. I'm pretty sure there's some supplements that help with short term memory loss, but I forgot what they are.
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On October 08 2012 13:31 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +Your opinion of me changes almost every time you post talking about me, frequently depending on who's active in the thread. Do you have any examples? I don't remember doing that. Jingle, will you read my past games? Just go to my profile and check whatever you want.
On October 08 2012 12:48 gonzaw wrote:
Complaining Jingle only does against me: because it's the only thing he does and it's anti-town as fuck
Anti-town has a heavy dose of implying I'm scum.
On October 08 2012 08:20 gonzaw wrote:
I made an analysis about how you are likely town which means I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU STOP OVERREACTING GODDAMIT
Not accusing me.
On October 08 2012 06:46 gonzaw wrote:
Do you agree that Jingle is just stubborn town and would try to appear less "Jingle-y" as scum (e.g try to explain all his
On October 08 2012 03:47 gonzaw wrote:
Because right now for me it's either you austin, Jingle, Drazerk or ghost.
I don't really get the feeling ghost is IAM's buddy (maybe that thing about IAM pushing him, although it's possible), and I don't seem to find Jingle as scum specially after reading his past games.
That one covers both bases in one post.
On October 07 2012 15:46 gonzaw wrote:
I'm running out of guys that can be RS to be honest.
I'm stuck with Jingle right now if I'm using a process of elimination
There's a representative smattering of you flip-flopping on me.
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On October 08 2012 13:55 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 13:38 JingleHell wrote:
If you go to the effort of posting your past games in your profile, you're probably aware of your meta as a tool, and not above using it to your benefit, so no, I won't check your other games. ...why would you think that? I post my past games in my profile to spare people the time and effort of asking which games I've been in and manually searching them. It's being considerate not "using meta as a tool". Show nested quote +Keirathi, Austin, basically anyone else, can you confirm for the guy who's skipping inconvenient parts of my filter that I've discussed things besides him, even if pushing him has been my primary thing, due to nearly everything he does seeming somewhat scummy to me? I never said your filter, I said in the last 72 hours. Basically N2 and D3. Show nested quote +And yes, your opinion of me changes incessantly. It's back and forth between "Probably bad town" and "possibly scum" and "if you don't do X I'll get you lynched" on a rather regular basis. I'm pretty sure there's some supplements that help with short term memory loss, but I forgot what they are. How's that relevant to who's active in the thread? Yes, I "flip-flop" in the sense that I always try to rethink about my stance on you and take a step back and see if I fucked up with my town read on you or not. What I don't remember is doing that depending on who's active in the thread which is what you claimed.
Well, I'm sure you don't. It's only been an impression, and not something I've got the energy to document, but it doesn't take away from changing your mind more times than a career politician.
And it's not "re-thinking" by any visible logic, it's changing what you're saying about me constantly, with no clear reason.
Also, the last 72 hours aren't all that's relevant to the game, and directly after the lynch, weren't you commenting on how little I pushed you during D3? Make up your mind, I'd say.
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But yeah, it might not be who's present, it could just be time of day, phase of the moon, or what's most convenient at the time, but your opinions of my play and scumminess change rather constantly, with no rhyme or reason. Earlier, I didn't tunnel you enough D3, now it's all I did D3...
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I posted a fair bit D3, and if I wasn't tunneling you, and wasn't talking about people who weren't you, what was I doing, having a fashion show? No, you're just doing the usual, which is completely refusing to address the facts.
And you wonder why I keep going back to only directing my points about you to other people?
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On October 09 2012 02:44 gonzaw wrote:
Saying there are 10 scum remaining is easy if you don't make arguments for it.
I've made arguments for a 2-2 scum team, and the arguments against it are basically "gonzaw seems like he knows the setup!".
ghost tried to do that...but well you could see it didn't make much sense. At least he tried to do it and utterly failed, which is better than just saying "there are 4 scum remaining!" and not doing anything (yes even if ghost is scum).
Actually, there's the best argument at all, which you keep completely ignoring. The OP tells us how scum factional KP is calculated, in a way that suggested at least a 3 person red team. Not Caller game, so, Scum KP = #/2 rounded up suggests 3 red minimum. Wording of Crossfire's post suggested 2 black minimum. I've said this before, I believe twice.
That means we should be looking for, most likely, 5-7 scum.
It's a reasonable deduction that Red only had 3 people, since we have yet to see multiple KPs or, as far as can be spotted, unclaimed saves/vets.
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On October 09 2012 07:52 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 07:56 gonzaw wrote:
Oh fuck if you flip scum I'll feel so retarded this makes me think gonzaw is scum.
Ignoring that I've been trying to push him for a while based on tons of things, would you mind expanding on why that in particular stands out to you?
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##Vote Gonzaw
Usual plethora of reasons.
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Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me.
That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up.
And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail.
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On October 10 2012 01:53 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 01:42 JingleHell wrote:
Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me.
That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up.
And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail. So...you're a permanent Bulletproof Townie, as long as there is someone below you in the player list? :o
I'm only bulletproof IF the person below me is alive to visit. Also, I assume I can be tracked there since I'm visiting them, which has a nasty ability to backfire. As to that being good for black scum, I can't even imagine my role being balanced that way, since the scum team's wincons seem to require working at cross purposes, putting red in a position where they can only kill a rival by forcing a lynch seems risky, especially with a role that would reveal that they had no other choice. Anyone who pushed it would promptly be under scrutiny.
That would be an "I win" button for black.
Also, if we have a vigi with bullets, confirming me tonight wouldn't be so bad.
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On October 10 2012 02:47 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 02:27 JingleHell wrote:On October 10 2012 01:53 Keirathi wrote:On October 10 2012 01:42 JingleHell wrote:
Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me.
That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up.
And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail. So...you're a permanent Bulletproof Townie, as long as there is someone below you in the player list? :o I'm only bulletproof IF the person below me is alive to visit. Also, I assume I can be tracked there since I'm visiting them, which has a nasty ability to backfire. As to that being good for black scum, I can't even imagine my role being balanced that way, since the scum team's wincons seem to require working at cross purposes, putting red in a position where they can only kill a rival by forcing a lynch seems risky, especially with a role that would reveal that they had no other choice. Anyone who pushed it would promptly be under scrutiny. That would be an "I win" button for black. Also, if we have a vigi with bullets, confirming me tonight wouldn't be so bad. did you really ask a vig to use a bullet on you that you can avoid
It would confirm the role. The role would be broken on scum. You have something against confirmed townies who are hard to NK?
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On October 10 2012 03:00 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 02:50 JingleHell wrote:On October 10 2012 02:47 Mattchew wrote:On October 10 2012 02:27 JingleHell wrote:On October 10 2012 01:53 Keirathi wrote:On October 10 2012 01:42 JingleHell wrote:
Well, since this seems to be happening, I'm Rick, The Adventure Core! I can go visit the person directly below me on the list at night, doing nothing, but avoiding KP directed at me.
That's why I've been pushy and hostile (and it looks like I've been vindicated about Gonzaw having an anti-town wincon, so I wasn't so far off with the primary target of that path). I was hoping to make scum try to hit me and waste their KP. That's also why I waited so long to claim, I wanted to be very sure it was happening en masse before giving that one up.
And no, my role doesn't make the other person get hit, it just gets me out of harms way. I've received no notifications of failed hits on me, but I don't know if I would since I'm actively avoiding the KP, rather than having it hit me and fail. So...you're a permanent Bulletproof Townie, as long as there is someone below you in the player list? :o I'm only bulletproof IF the person below me is alive to visit. Also, I assume I can be tracked there since I'm visiting them, which has a nasty ability to backfire. As to that being good for black scum, I can't even imagine my role being balanced that way, since the scum team's wincons seem to require working at cross purposes, putting red in a position where they can only kill a rival by forcing a lynch seems risky, especially with a role that would reveal that they had no other choice. Anyone who pushed it would promptly be under scrutiny. That would be an "I win" button for black. Also, if we have a vigi with bullets, confirming me tonight wouldn't be so bad. did you really ask a vig to use a bullet on you that you can avoid It would confirm the role. The role would be broken on scum. You have something against confirmed townies who are hard to NK? if your scum team had no kp, being able to avoid kp from the other team would be completely balanced
Uhh, let's think. If a night passes, with no NK, and suddenly someone pushes for a lynch on someone, then, when they flip, they're town and couldn't have died to an NK the night prior, the people who wanted the lynch are pretty much confirmed scum.
And in a multi-faction game, with all of them at cross purposes, the one most in need of roles that can provide information and lynch control is the town.
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I know I'm town. I'm just explaining why the role as a scum role doesn't make much sense. Also, a lack of factional KP doesn't guarantee that the individuals on the team don't all have potential conditional KP like Crossfire did. I'd say that's plenty of balance in and of itself.
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Well, I'd certainly hope red wouldn't have roles like this along with roles like Glados.
You're mostly right, maybe my paranoia has kicked in on the potential weirdness of the role. But I still don't see how it would be balanced as anything but town. And I really don't think that's any more absurd as far as speculation than a lot of the shit other people have done.
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EPT
