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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:02 Drazerk wrote: Hiro vigilantes don't shoot scum lol Vigilantes shoot town I have never shot town except when I let town call my shot for me. You are just bad at playing a vig. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:17 strongandbig wrote: I have never shot town except when I let town call my shot for me. You are just bad at playing a vig. No I just don't believe in good vigilantes I presume that all vigi shots will be used on town regardless of the player and how good they are. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:19 Drazerk wrote: No I just don't believe in good vigilantes I presume that all vigi shots will be used on town regardless of the player and how good they are. Does this include your maybe-shot this game? | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:04 JingleHell wrote: Those are reasons to want the lynch ON Gonzaw. They're not reasons to want the lynch OFF Drazerk, except that Gonzaw flipping scum could indicate Drazerk is town.I'm more nervous about Hiro's invisibility than Mattchew's. Mattchew said he got a HotS invite right before he vanished, Hiro has just said almost nothing memorable all game. That sets off more of my "scum" alarms than anything else. As for why we'd want the lynch off Draz, I want it off him because Gonzaw has done several things recently that can literally ONLY benefit scum (make us look for less scum than there most likely are, act like he expects a townflip off Draz, his SNB+Keir plan that either sets up a block-free shot, or allows SNB+Keir, if they were scum, which I doubt, to withhold a shot and get free confirmed townie status). One of those things suggests Draz might well be town if Gonzaw flips scum. Avoiding a potential mislynch with scum grabbing town cred off the back of it scenario doesn't seem like a bad idea. Especially after how bad me chasing useless people in PTP3 went, I'm trying to chase scummy behavior first. Smacking down trolls/lurkers/etc. has to be a concerted effort with early game policy lynches. Hold on. I just wrote up little hypotheticals about what happens if Drazerk/Gonzaw flip and are town/scum, how it makes the other look. But the "Gonzaw scum = Drazerk town" thing doesn't work. Multiple factions. Gonzaw scum = Drazerk not scum WITH Gonzaw. scumGonzaw can't know that Drazerk is town, just that he's not on Gonzaw's faction. Right? | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:26 austinmcc wrote: Those are reasons to want the lynch ON Gonzaw. They're not reasons to want the lynch OFF Drazerk, except that Gonzaw flipping scum could indicate Drazerk is town. Hold on. I just wrote up little hypotheticals about what happens if Drazerk/Gonzaw flip and are town/scum, how it makes the other look. But the "Gonzaw scum = Drazerk town" thing doesn't work. Multiple factions. Gonzaw scum = Drazerk not scum WITH Gonzaw. scumGonzaw can't know that Drazerk is town, just that he's not on Gonzaw's faction. Right? Fair point. But if they ARE both scum, there's one some people listen to, and one they tend not to. I know which one I'd prefer to have dead. Although, given that I just generally want Gonzaw dead (nothing like the combination of scum and talking shit to make me want to lynch him), that may not mean much. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:29 Drazerk wrote: Me flipping town however does confirm Gonzaw is scum so win is a win No it doesn't. Quit being dense. It adds circumstantial evidence. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I've been reading his filters from Can't Believe (town) and Liar Game (scum). His filter this game feels much more like Can't Believe than Liar game. From all the town reads, to the weird setup speculation...it just feels more like Can't Believe. I still think his play this game could make sense as Black Scum, since they would have wanted to remain hidden and be townie-like, but he's moved way down my list of possible Red Scum. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 08 2012 02:44 Keirathi wrote: So, something about gonzaw: I've been reading his filters from Can't Believe (town) and Liar Game (scum). His filter this game feels much more like Can't Believe than Liar game. From all the town reads, to the weird setup speculation...it just feels more like Can't Believe. I still think his play this game could make sense as Black Scum, since they would have wanted to remain hidden and be townie-like, but he's moved way down my list of possible Red Scum. Does his reaction to have some bad reads this game and that game feel different to you? I can't quite fully vocalize it, but I have this gut feel that he's been more "woe is me" this game than in can't believe. It's not...it's not a scum tell, maybe he's just upset at it happening again. But there are some subtle difference that make me feel like his play this game looks close to can't believe but isn't really the same. That reaction feels different, the fishing wasn't something that I got out of can't believe. If you look at mason chat especially, I'm convinced as of D2 that Gonzaw KNOWS sciberbia and I are masons. He's being a little coy about it in thread iirc. But he's not quite explicit about it, he's not quite poking us to make sure. I may have been being paranoid there, but his fishing in this game on protective roles doesn't seem similar to his Can't Believe play. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 08 2012 03:04 Keirathi wrote: Okay austin: who do YOU want to lynch. You're making arguments for both Drazerk and gonzaw, which is starting to get a little suspicious. I want to lynch Drazerk. I AM making arguments for both. But I'd prefer Drazerk because ... Drazerk just seems to survive. Every game people go "lynch Drazerk, don't have Drazerk at LYLO." DRAZERK goes "clear me out at some point, don't let me live til LYLO." And yet every game, he's around late. If I hadn't shot him in PTP3, he'd have stayed alive there for longer. We don't actually KNOW when LYLO is this game, and so I think it's ... prudent to go ahead and lynch him? That sounds awful, but it's the truth. I hate that argument normally, but then you play in a game and you can see how it works. I think that pushes Drazerk to the top of the list. Both are scummy, but Drazerk has the added plus factor of being Drazerk. If you're suspicious of me because I'm making arguments for both, what would you prefer? That I sit back and wait for Drazerk to flip? That I don't address Gonzaw? There's a lot going on in these last few pages, even if it's just from half of us, and I don't want to let things pass by. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 07 2012 23:17 JingleHell wrote: Oh, and the SNB/Keirathi claim protection target thing is stupid too. If they were scum, which I really don't believe at this point, all they'd have to do is not send in an NK and whammo, they're confirmed town, because they saved the NK! You forgot the part where, if S&B saves someone he will most likely die (he doesn't have infinite lives). If he claims 10 shots and is still alive we know something is wrong. ALso...if they don't send a NK then: 1)There won't be any town deaths 2)If the other scum team use KP on the guys they claimed they saved, they are fucked How are those 2 things bad? Nevermind don't answer that "plan" won't happen so let's just ignore it. About the 2 scum per team: Okay, first of all if this ends up being wrong I'll feel like shit...and I'll be kind of mad at the scum-town distribution of this game. But like I and Hiro said: If there are more than 2 scum per team there would be like 6-7 town members total and 6 scum total in a minigame with possibly 2 or more scum KP per night. That's just wrong, very wrong, even if we have a "medic/bodyguard" (which can still die, it's not a medic that can save infinite lives), a medic and a jailer. Those roles protect night KP, but not from lynches. If town ever so as misslynch on D1 then basically they lose since scum have more members than them. I don't know why me assuming there are 2 per team is pushing a scum agenda, unless you can prove me wrong. To austin: On October 08 2012 01:19 austinmcc wrote: Gonzaw, why this - but then making reads on me this game based off town play in Can't Believe? Ghost doesn't have a recent scum game, so you have to analyze his play here. I don't have a recent scum game, so I'm scum because of my play in another game. Also, check D1 of Can't Believe again. I can go more in depth if needed, but I'm not balls to the wall on talis all of D1. I rant about him, try to get him lynched, but in the end (1) i pick up more votes than he does and (2) I unvote him because he posts a single list of reads, like halfway through D1. Marv even called me out on letting go of my talis vote for a little post of reads. I push talis D2 again, because mason buddy and I both agreed on him being scum (See Ver quote again). I said his "meta" isn't good enough to take into account. I've read his town games, and I saw he has similar behaviour in them. After reading his town games I didn't really conclude anything, he could be either scum or town in this game (there are things similar to his town games, but also there are things that are scummy in this game, like the lack of contributions from D2 til now for instance). austin, it makes me feel like you are indeed playing safer this game. I don't even remember who you wanted to lynch each day, I only remember you trying to make that last minute switch on Keirathi at the end of D1 but then seemingly forgetting about your scumread on him, and then making that vote on Nisani which didn't sound that convincing to me (as in, you weren't convinced he was scum and tried to get everybody to lynch Nisani and posted about it and shit). Ever since D2 I don't remember you being confident anybody is scum, but I also don't remember you telling us you aren't confident someone is scum. For instance I don't know what you feel about the whole "Drazerk was Drazerk-y on D2 thing" You started discussing it with me+Keirathi, and while my stance was that Drazerk could be town, and Kei thought Drazerk could still be scum based on it....I don't even know what stance you had on it other than just talk and talk about Draz. And now I don't know what stance you have on me. Do you want to lynch me or not? Do you want to lynch Draz or not? You haven't made explicit your thoughts about that at all. I also haven't seen you "go back and check other games" from players. Maybe this is something you just did on Can't Believe...but I remember you going through an extensive analysis of Risen's play between all his past games in just D1, and doing the same with talis and other players on D2. Other than using some stuff from PTP3 to accuse Jingle on D1 (which was kind of weak I think), you haven't done that at all. On October 08 2012 02:52 austinmcc wrote: Does his reaction to have some bad reads this game and that game feel different to you? I can't quite fully vocalize it, but I have this gut feel that he's been more "woe is me" this game than in can't believe. It's not...it's not a scum tell, maybe he's just upset at it happening again. But there are some subtle difference that make me feel like his play this game looks close to can't believe but isn't really the same. I already explained that, have you acknowledged that? If you want more "woe is me" behaviour look at iGrok's mini-game. That reaction feels different, the fishing wasn't something that I got out of can't believe. If you look at mason chat especially, I'm convinced as of D2 that Gonzaw KNOWS sciberbia and I are masons. He's being a little coy about it in thread iirc. But he's not quite explicit about it, he's not quite poking us to make sure. I may have been being paranoid there, but his fishing in this game on protective roles doesn't seem similar to his Can't Believe play. Okay, about the "fishing": You guys will understand later when I claim. There's a reason I'm "fishing": I want to know more about the setup (I've already said this and it's not a lie). Why? Well because my role is confusing the hell out of me and I don't know wtf is happening (both with my role and the lack of shit that happens each night). Remember I was VT in can't believe. I also didn't know you both were masons though :/ I mean...I didn't know who the remaining mason was even after you flipped >_> (I had an idea it was scib, but with him not claiming I wouldn't really know) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I'd really want everybody to answer this question so we can lynch the RS first (remember, factional KP). Because right now for me it's either you austin, Jingle, Drazerk or ghost. I don't really get the feeling ghost is IAM's buddy (maybe that thing about IAM pushing him, although it's possible), and I don't seem to find Jingle as scum specially after reading his past games. That leaves me with very few options, you and Drazerk basically. If we conclude Draz is town then that leaves me with even fewer options. Again, I don't know if this process of elimination is correct or even good to make...but it's what it leaves me with. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 07 2012 23:29 Drazerk wrote: I agree about the foreknowledge JH but it was in my best interest not to mention it until closer to the deadline. Now of course with two scum teams it isn't quite as clear as it normally would be but it still applies to some extent. ##Vote: gonzaw On October 08 2012 02:00 HiroPro wrote: You guys are ignoring the most important thing.... Drazerk's s&b shot isn't just abnormal for him. It's also an inherently scummy action - townies shoot to kill scum, scum shoot to protect themselves. That's what makes him scum, not this nonsense about whether he's drazerky or a dt or whatever else. ....fuck. Now I don't really now if Draz is town :/ Why does that vote seem like "okay let me vote for the other guy that's gonna get lynched so I dont' get lynched myself" ? Also that point about shooting someone he doesn't think is scum...is good I think. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
I flip town - now what. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If it wasn't for S&B being confirmed by Keirathi I'd get the same feeling there. Reread Jingle and still don't get the feeling he's scum. When he's scum he tries to justify his votes very soon, and tries to contribute a little bit more, in the sense that he tries to get people to think he's contributing (still using that "aggressive" person of his, or trying to). In this game, he votes me, FoSes me, starts "assuming" I'm scum, but doesn't really care about justifying that FoS/vote. He doesn't seem to care about what people think of him, which strikes me different than his scum Newbie game for instance, or even from Mad Men. | ||
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