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Oh, as for why I'm not voting Palmar, I still think his actions are excusable from a townie-palmar perspective. More importantly, in Palmar's last post:
Mementoss is almost certainly town. If I do end up dead tonight you really, really need to take a critical look at the fact that prplhz and I agreed on reads. It's really fucking frustrating that you paint someone scum, then town proceeds to ignore you once you get shot.
...
Mementoss's interactions with blazinghand during the first moments of the game seem very straightforward and matter of fact. there is no sense of panic as he breaks down the points Blazinhand raised against him. The main reason I think he's town are the two big posts he came up with after I posted the case on marv. In both of them he's genuinely looking at the situation as it is, instead of as he wants it to be.
Impressive stuff. This doesn't confirm him town by any means, but it's a solid read, and he really has no reason to establish a townie read so strongly as scum.
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Yah, I somewhat agree, though I wish he'd atleast comment on BL at some point >.>
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@ Marv
Since you're falling off Palmar a bit, any other compelling cases out there for you? Anyone you think worthy of a vote?
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Post N1 Update:
Town:
Marv (Some long townie posts + too much :effort: for me to think he's scum)
Mementoss (confirmed vigi)
iamperfection (leaning town - too upfront about his own play, has this "doesn't give a fuck" attitude towards suspicion against him. Laughably "matter of fact" towards his own play.)
prplzh (owait.)
BlazingHand (nooooo)
mkfuba (welp.)
Null-ish:
Zeph (mega confirmation bais vs. me makes me lean town. A couple of posts in his filter I have to consider)
Ange (:effort: making me lean town on her)
Palmar (nullzzz/townie- solid read on mmtoss, though some scummy things in his filter)
Hiro (nullz)
austinmcc (nullzzzzz)
scum:
Bluelightz
'suppose I need to explain iamperfection a bit. There are just some things in his filter that scream town to me. i.e:
On September 20 2012 03:45 iamperfection wrote:
I will follow the two guys I think are town.
## unvote
## vote austinmcc
On September 20 2012 05:23 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 05:16 austinmcc wrote:On September 20 2012 05:14 iamperfection wrote:
Raise your hand if you are here Explain your vote if you are here On September 20 2012 04:51 Ange777 wrote:On September 20 2012 04:47 iamperfection wrote:On September 20 2012 04:38 marvellosity wrote:
sounds like some epic phone posting gone wrong You know me to well. I meant to say it is reasonable for me to follow my town reads because they are usually right So you are not voting austin because you think he is scummy but because you hope that your town reads found scum? I did you didn't like the explanation. And I'm starting to not like my explanation
It's just so hillariously matter-of-fact. Also, his reaction to me and prplzh fucking up the mason claim looks really townie to me.
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On September 21 2012 07:33 marvellosity wrote:
Hapa, just because it came to mind - what do you make of Ange quizzing iamperfection about his vote around the time of the lynch / dumb claims?
It's pretty strange, given that ange herself was active in the thread during the whole mason-claim fiasco. However, there's just too much overall effort in her posting for me to give her a scumread, despite her relentless tunneling of prplzh. She was never afraid to comment in detail on other cases (Palmar's case on marv), and as far as I'm concerned, was the only player in the thread to have decent rationale for voting him.
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Any opinions on the bunch out of Hiro/Zeph/Austin?
They're pretty null to me and I can't get a read either way. What say you?
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On September 21 2012 08:04 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:43 Hapahauli wrote:On September 21 2012 07:33 marvellosity wrote:
Hapa, just because it came to mind - what do you make of Ange quizzing iamperfection about his vote around the time of the lynch / dumb claims? It's pretty strange, given that ange herself was active in the thread during the whole mason-claim fiasco. However, there's just too much overall effort in her posting for me to give her a scumread, despite her relentless tunneling of prplzh. She was never afraid to comment in detail on other cases (Palmar's case on marv), and as far as I'm concerned, was the only player in the thread to have decent rationale for voting him. Ok. Agree on your bold point quite a bit actually. Normally if scum decide to tunnel someone to look like they're contributing, that's all they do.
Wanted to comment on this, because this is exactly what Bluelightz has been doing.
The more I read through his meta, the more differences in mentality I see between this game and his townie games. Townie bluelightz likes looking for... for lack of better words... "townie idiosyncrasies." He finds little things that makes people townie/null/not-scum/whatever and it really influences his voting process. This gives other people the impression that he's a crazy/wild player due to his mentality.
But when you look at this game, he's built two big cases against players. He's never declared a townie read, and he's been fairly tunnel-y. Look how clean his play is. Does that look like the wild townie Bluelightz "capable of doing anything" that you know?
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Austin, can you clarify something for me?
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Again, I had the same exact feeling that ange was active around deadline, but the timing didn't match up. She had a lot of activity in the hour or two before the lynch, but she did NOTHING with the claims. She seemed more worried about iamperfection's vote that the claims themselves, as that's her only comment between asking if prplz could confirm hapa's mason claim and then commenting that she was waiting for the flip 3 minutes after deadline.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the bolded.
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@ Marv
As you keep banging on about him, I decided to go back for myself at Normal Mini Mafia II.
And the large problem I came across is that he was quite the opposite there. In fact I was somewhat shocked to see how involved he 'seemed'. If you want me to dig up examples I will, but I think his 'tunnelyness' here is more akin to, say GSL where he basically stuck on vader for two days, than NMM2, where he was on drwiggles, VE, Sinensis, and with other interactions besides.
What say you?
I really disagree with your assessment on his GSL play. Look at his read progression on Vaderseven:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365925¤tpage=7#134
First mention (V7 = null). In this post he also asks a question to Drikzor and declares Zeph as a scum read. You notice how willing he is to read out to other happenings in the thread, and not just mention his #1 scumread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365925¤tpage=15#295
Opens saying that he things Kei is town.
Then thinks that you (marv) is slightly scummy
Then declares Zeph town
Then declares V7 null
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365925¤tpage=16#309
Votes V7, split between risen/V7
I don't know about you, but there's a huuuuuuge difference in mentality I'm seeing here. Look how willing he is to comment on other people in the thread. BL even declares his old scumread town (something he hasn't done with mementoss yet).
Then look at BL this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=9#179
Large mementoss case.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=12#240
Tunnels mementoss, then drops him. Votes prplzh. does not declare mementoss town, null, or anything
More tunneling of prplzh... and that's it. No other interactions. No townie reads. No null reads. No nothing.
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@ Austin
Thanks. That's interesting, I'll think about it some.
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On September 21 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote:
You're ignoring my characterisation of his scumplay in NMM2, though, which is more pertinent.
Well just wanted to clarify that he wasn't "stuck on v7 for two days" on D1 in GSL. He reached out to the thread a lot more.
As for NMMII, what makes me hesitant to use his meta there is the fact it was a game 2 months ago. However, in that game as well, he's very reluctant to give townie reads. Also, this is the post that really got me making connections with his play in this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349058¤tpage=27#532
In NMMII, he makes a similar "overkill" case against Sinesis when a bunch of players already have votes on him. Overall, his play in this game (particularly the prplzh case) and NMMII makes me think that he's forcing reads. Townie BL has no problem sheeping someone without a giant overkill case.
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On September 21 2012 09:21 marvellosity wrote:
Why do you say it was overkill? It wasn't that long.
The one thing I noticed, actually, was that he opened both the Sinensis and prplhz cases here up with
Case
I find that kinda interesting. But obviously it's not very strong. Quickly browsing through GSL/NMM3 I don't see him doing that there.
"Overkill" in the sense that it was unnecessary. It's not like his case against prplzh was long either - it was just completely unnecessary considering the town atmosphere. There was a lot of suspicion on prplzh well in the open and posted by several players.
Instead of just voting for prplzh/sinensis, he made it a point to really "justify" his vote and lay out is rationale by summarizing a bunch of other points against his target.
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@ austin
I think it's a scumslip actually. This is the main thing I'm focusing on:
On September 20 2012 06:03 Ange777 wrote:
Where is the flip? I wanna get the celebration starting
After the fail-claim, Ange is convinced that prplzh and I are scum.
Her second post just doesn't make sense with this mentality.
On September 21 2012 01:07 Ange777 wrote:@iamperfection: Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 22:57 iamperfection wrote:
also at ange i want to you to explain more on your thought process at the deadline. What was going through your head when the claims came out.
What was going on? I have you marked as a scum read that's what's going on. Why would someone give up his right to vote just to simply sheep another player? Especially sheeping someone you yourself called a terrible townie. There is no town motivatoin for that kind of play. Publicly stating to sheep your town read just gives you an excuse to be wrong with your vote because you were not responsible for it. And suddenly vote switching in the last minutes onto the seemingly scum prplhz whom you had not mentioned again after dismissing Blazinghand's case as being a weak meta case is just something I don't understand. Two possibilities: 1) You are town. You want to make sure prplhz gets lynched. But we already had the majority to lynch him. So why the last minute vote? We discussed prplhz a lot before the end of Day 1 and you did not give your stance on him. 2) You are scum. You wanted to get some town cred for jumping on "scum prplhz".
The fail-claim re-enforcing her read on prplzh should be fresh in her mind. Yet she doesn't even consider that iamperfection switched his vote for that reason. Instead, we get a giant diatribe on voting "responsibility."
It should be really clear to "town Ange" why iamperfection switched his vote. Iamperfection switched after the fail-claim, and there's no reason that Ange should be suspicious of him.
Nice catch Austin.
##Unvote Bluelightz
##Vote Ange777
Note, I still have my eye on Bluelightz
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@ Marv
Am I off base here? Whaddy'a think? Ange's a good player, and this seems especially egregious for someone who is very logical.
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Completely disagree with you on austin. On page 46, he really presses me for a read on Ange and specifically mentions her scumslip. If Ange flips red, I'm pretty inclined to think austin is town.
If Ange flips green... well... not good for austin.
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Last bit was @ mmtoss of course
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well obv not. Hence the 5 votes on her.
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@ Zeph
NULLNULLNULLNULLNULL
jk.
But seriously, thoughts on the Ange case? Also, your thoughts on Bluelightz (or anyone else you find scummy) would be cool to have.
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Couple of things Zeph:
1) That is a terrrrrible reason to think Iamperfection is scum. You think he's scum because JH shows a similar mentality as scum? I understand suspicion on meta, but suspicion based on another player's meta is wtf. I posted on iamperfection earlier, agree or disagree: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=46#906
And this leads to Ange777. From what I understand, her death would say a lot about imp. Also, you guys did an incredible job at checking ange's actions - we basically need her to explain stuff and see if she's coherent - and she looks really bad after that night I guess.
I want to see what everyone has to say about ange.
Please actually say something about ange before you ask other people to talk about ange.
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EPT
