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On September 02 2012 00:26 strongandbig wrote:
So why can't there be both self-aware and non-self-aware millers? In a detective-based setup I don't think it's that unlikely.
In response.
On September 01 2012 23:44 HiroPro wrote:
Suspicious Detectives are millers. I tried to get the mods to say this in the thread, but apparently they won't since it's only part of my role PM.
So s&b is almost certainly lying. It's really unlikely that the setup has certain millers who are unaware (look at Palmar's role PM) and certain millers who are self-aware. And the fact that he put his vote on Palmar and then left without listening to any of the people who told him that was dumb doesn't speak well of him.
##Vote strongandbig
Hiro just claimed miller. I have a hard time believing both of you are not scum.
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On September 02 2012 00:27 Risen wrote:
I'm going to write up a case regardless of what's happening in thread atm, actually. We'll see what sab comes back with.
My case is going to focus on someone who was hard defending Palmar when they shouldn't have been. I'm going to look very hard at everyone who wasn't voting Palmar and then see what I find.
Don't forget to analyze yourself.
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I'm not a miller lol. I'm a cop.
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On September 02 2012 00:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:27 Risen wrote:
I'm going to write up a case regardless of what's happening in thread atm, actually. We'll see what sab comes back with.
My case is going to focus on someone who was hard defending Palmar when they shouldn't have been. I'm going to look very hard at everyone who wasn't voting Palmar and then see what I find. what happened to shady?
Shady wasn't on Palmar. If he fits what I'm looking for then I'll post a continuance of my previous case.
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On September 02 2012 00:29 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:27 Risen wrote:
I'm going to write up a case regardless of what's happening in thread atm, actually. We'll see what sab comes back with.
My case is going to focus on someone who was hard defending Palmar when they shouldn't have been. I'm going to look very hard at everyone who wasn't voting Palmar and then see what I find. Don't forget to analyze yourself.
I didn't defend Palmar at all. Why would I analyze myself?
Palmar died b/c he needed to learn a lesson and on day 1 where the odds of hitting scum are low anyways I was willing to lynch him.
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On September 02 2012 00:30 HiroPro wrote:
I'm not a miller lol. I'm a cop.
So you're saying it is possible for a check to return Suspicious Detective?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I think Node's role is Captain Obvious
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On September 02 2012 00:33 Node wrote:So you're saying it is possible for a check to return Suspicious Detective?
Yes. My checks return either Detective or Suspicious Detective.
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On September 02 2012 00:18 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 00:14 Mementoss wrote:On September 02 2012 00:01 HiroPro wrote:PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all. Yea I don't believe you. Im a bit lost, about this suspicious detective thing. Why don't you believe him can you give some clarification? Second, look at what s&b wrote. When he first claimed self-aware miller, he said that he didn't know what circumstances would cause him to return as suspicious or normal (he talked about how certain people's checks may be reliable, certain may not). However, now he's claiming that his role PM told him that he'll return suspicious when there are less than half the players remaining in this game.
Yeah, I didn't explain that in my miller claim post. I was kind of confused about it myself, and I wanted to make the situation clearer; I also didn't think it was important, since for it to matter detectives would have to check me, and the whole point of telling everyone you're a miller is already putting yourself under the suspicion as if you had a detective check on you. I actually was going to just simplify it even more and tell everyone that I would always check as scum, but I ended up doing a ps at the end; I thought I should mention that I would sometimes check town because otherwise if a detective checked me too soon it could get very confusing (mixed-up sanities, assuming there are framers, etcetera).
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On September 02 2012 00:30 HiroPro wrote:
I'm not a miller lol. I'm a cop.
Ah... well ok.
Anyways. Sab the thing that bothers me most is how you suddenly shift to suspicious only after a certain number of people are dead? What's the point of that from a game mechanics perspective? Is a cop supposed to continuously check you? If it's random as you say then why would they even bother checking you again if you came back green? If they did they'd see someone who shifted from green to suspicious and they'd push a lynch on you. If you came back red they'd push a lynch on you.
It seems like your role is too "fantastic" in that, if it is as you claim, it was designed to force you to claim. If you had claimed everything you're now saying at the start maybe it would be believable. Saying it AFTER being called out and AFTER seeing what Palmar flipped seems disingenuous.
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On September 02 2012 00:34 Risen wrote:
If you had claimed everything you're now saying at the start maybe it would be believable. Saying it AFTER being called out and AFTER seeing what Palmar flipped seems disingenuous.
This so much.
I also think it really unlikely that s&b would have started speculating about how certain people's checks may return guilty, certain people's checks innocent if his role was real. If he really was just about keeping it simple he would have just said "sometimes I'm a miller, sometimes i'm not".
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I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers?
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Well my case was going to be on HiroPro for his hard defense of Palmar. At this point it seems to come down to hirpro bussing the shit out of sab (how unlikely is that, though? Dude is the one who called him out) or Hiropro being town. If sab flips town I'll go back to Hiropro (my case would have revolved around defending Palmar when no one should have been defending him). For now, though, Hiropro has found something that can't be ignored.
##vote: strongandbig
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Solarsail has been modkilled for martyring, editing post and straight up insulting(via PM). There will be no replacement.
He flips Detective. Other punishments will follow.
Thanks for ShiaoPi for taking care of all the stuff while I sleep. Keep the game going normally please. Sorry for the interruption.
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For the record, BlackMamba24 flips right arm Detective.
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On September 02 2012 00:23 ghost_403 wrote:
Hey guys!
What's going on in this thread!
Today is crazy for me, so I'm going to be making one post today, and that's it.
Thoughts on NKs: I'm thinking Hapa was a town KP due to the flavor, and BMB was the scum KP. Knowing this is not particularly enlightening. I don't put any more faith in BMB's reads (or any less in Hapa's) because of this. Obviously, BMB was killed because he was acting very town. Look through his filter and use it as a town biased viewpoint. Don't ignore what dead townies have to say.
I can't believe the town let Palmar be lynched Day 1. Sure, he was useless, but seriously?
Town reads: MrZentor (unfortunately), Shady Sands (double unfortunately) and Node (WTF?????). Check out Node's previous games. In Hammer, he did basically the same thing, where he contributed next to nothing throughout all of Day 1, and he rolled Vig in that game. In this game, he was gone for most of the day, but when he came back he was opinionated and aggressive. Lurking scum would be much more apologetic.
Zentor, start using your head. And Shady, read the fucking thread.
Scum: MMToss, Risen, and S+B. I'm not convinced that's the scum team by any stretch, but those are the people in the thread I think are acting scummy. (Side note: I have no idea how many scum there are in this game at all. I'm assuming there is a team?) MMToss is a carry over from yesterday. No part of how the day played out makes me change my opinion on him. S+B, I'll comment on that at the end (new stuff in thread between when I started writing and finished writing).
As far as Risen, Node is right. We have to hold him accountable for his part in the Palmar lynch. As town, Risen is aggressive and abrasive. As scum, Risen worships chaos (See TLM LIII). This is looking a lot more like scum Risen. Pressure him today and watch what happens.
Null reads: Hiro (leaning town), Marv (leaning town), mkfuba (leaning newbie town), and hopeless1der (leaning scum). I don't have enough to really read any of these players. pre-edit: marv's interactions now with S+B are pushing me to place him more in the town category than the scum category. If S+B flips town, he goes down to scum.
Looks like S+B probably fakeclaimed miller. Ballsy play on his part. This pushes Hiro to town read, and confirms what I suspected on S+B.
##vote strongandbig
And now, I'm off! Don't do anything stupid while I'm gone.
This is the kind of post you make before you die. As of now it does nothing to help the game. It makes you look like your doing something, but really it's more confusing than anything to give your read on everyone in the whole game. None of his reads are really explained at all. This whole post screams scum to me, and I'm pretty surprised im the first person to mention it. As scum, you can pretty much put anyone in whatever category you want, to try and manipulate the views of others. You know the alignments of players, so he can distance himself from his scum team while looking like he's contributing. He also has all his basis covered for future mislynches.
Mementoss was the 2nd highest lynch yesterday so he's going to keep mentioning it so while everyone is still curious about it he can push for a second mislynch. He finds SnB scum, so lets kill him, if he flips town, Marv will most certainly be scum and we can mislynch him. Also Risen started the Palmar lynch, so lets lynch him! I'm not saying Marv and Risen are definitely town. What I am saying is ghost is clearly keeping his options open without really giving any helpful information or committing to any options, so if he switches wagons, he can refer to this post and say , well yeah I mentioned it here.
I will bold the parts where ghost puts blame onto other people for the lynch yesterday or downplays the intelligence of others, to try and re-enforce what a good and noble townie he is. When yesterday he did nothing to help the lynch or help find scum, yet alone even make a case.
Additionally, another thing he does to make himself look like good old useful townie ghost is take credit for things that never happened. Such as the last line of the post, "confirms what I suspected on S+B." when in reality, ghost never mentioned SnB in his whole filter as a scum possibility. He is now doing the same thing yesterday, jumping on the lynch wagon after it starts to gain a bit of steam.
I will also re-quote Shady's case on ghost from day 1 as it is still relevant and is a lot of what I felt made ghost seem off in day 1.
On September 01 2012 07:34 Shady Sands wrote:Hi guys, I'm back. Given that Node is going to get modkilled: ##UnvoteI read Risen's case on me and I like it. It's long, which earns points in my book. That being said, I disagree with its conclusion that I am scum, since I'm not. I'll respond to it in a bit, but first and foremost, I'd like everyone to focus on the scummiest player so far: Ghost_403Here's how Ghost kicks off his scumhunt: Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 22:35 ghost_403 wrote:
I agree with Hapa: BMB's case was lackluster at best. Hapa came into the thread, posted "I'm town, flavor sucks", and that's it. I really don't see that as some sort of scum tell on his part.
BMB: I'm curious. Has anyone else in the thread stuck out to you as playing scummy?
Marv: What do you think about BMB's case against Hapa?
Risen's play this game is a little off from the Risen we all know and love. Not sure exactly why as of yet. Could be it's just been a while since he's played. Completely fluffy. First agrees that the case is lackluster, but no tell. Then asks BMB for more reads while he himself posts no reads. Then asks Marv for reads on BMB. Then offers a null tell on Risen. I essence... much ado about nothing. Then defends BMB from Hapa in an effort to look active. But again, no scumreads. Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Then again a no-content post, just a defense of his own actions. Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. Then Ghost goes huge WIFOM. He even lampshades it. Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? Still no case at this point. We have Hapa, Hopeless, Memento, BMB, and myself all making lots of noise but he somehow seems to think everyone is just a confused townie. Which would make a lot of sense if he had prior knowledge as scum. Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 23:38 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 23:34 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.
@BMB: You are DrH, right? Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case? I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through. I'm curious, because by your own reasoning 1) DrH made a bad case 2) DrH is a very good player does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet? WIFOM mode engage! Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case? I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum. Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? yeah, ok, let's not go down the WIFOM road. Suffice to say, when someone does something bad, "he should know not to do something bad" has always struck me as an inadequate way of explaining it away. Black's case is certainly scummier than what he was making the case on (hapa's play). Conversely, do you see that case as a town-tell? My spreadsheet has BMB marked down as scum due to that case, but I'm not convinced on it enough to vote him yet. BMB is a good player, and lynching him based on a bad case he made this early on Day 1 is terrible play. I'm certainly going to be watching him closely. What I would really like from him is for him to come back and tell us his thoughts on everyone's reactions to his case. That would tell me a lot more about his alignment than what he's already said in thread. Whoa! We have a scumread now! Everyone drop socks and grab your throttles, because after half a day of posting Ghost says BMB is scum. Except... Show nested quote +Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?
I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.
Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell? This is what Ghost posted in his very own previous post. What? Classic case of scum forgetting what he wrote earlier and just trying to agree with people. Then he tries to split hairs about BMB (I think he's scum but I don't see his posting behavior/casemaking as scum!) then asks people what they think about BMB. Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:48 ghost_403 wrote:
Gut reaction. What are your thoughts on BMB's alignment? Then says he hasn't found a scum candidate yet: Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:15 ghost_403 wrote:
Well, since I'd rather lynch scum today, I haven't quite made up my mind. Plenty of town reads, but haven't found a good scum candidate quite yet. I'll let you know when I find one. But he'd be happy with a MMToss lynch in the very next post. What? Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:20 ghost_403 wrote:
Actually, I'd be pretty happy with a MMToss lynch. Still waiting for S+B to chime in.
Playing mafia while TI2 is on is really hard. Then he votes MMToss as soon as HiroPro makes a big case on MMToss. But there's no independent analysis from ghost as to why he's making this vote as opposed to BMB (who he has marked down as scum in his spreadsheet.) Then he offers a defense of his actions: Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:49 ghost_403 wrote:
Palmar being AFK is probably due to the TI2, I'm withholding judgement on him until he comes back. Can't change my mind on Risen until he comes back and starts acting more or less Risen. Marv's disappearance is disconcerting, but probably not alignment indicative.
I never said BMB was not mafia, I just said that I'm not ready to lynch him over a single bad case he had presented. I'm still waiting for him to come back into the thread and respond to what's happened. His response is going to determine my view of his alignment.
Still not quite sure of what I think of S+B. I haven't seen a scum player make a legit fakeclaim for a long time, so based on the metagame, I'm inclined to believe him when he claimed miller. However, you're right, his posts have been a little bit off. That's why I really want him to chime in on the MMToss situation. Every single read he gives is null or townie. Again, no justification for the MMToss vote and then keeps splitting hairs over BMB. He asks other people to look at MMToss (gotta keep that scum wagon rolling, yo) but then doesn't offer any justification for the vote himself. I find Ghost's entire train of reasoning on Mementoss consistent with a scum with prior knowledge of alignments, trying to stay active without posting real content. Therefore: ## Vote Ghost_403
SnB's alignment has nothing to do with whether ghost is scummy or not. Im not sure which is more scummy ghost or SnB.
But I think I will be voting for ghost because his entire game speaks scum to me for SnB it's just a questionable claim that we can't know for sure is fake, its based mostly on speculation.
##Unvote:StrongandBig
##Vote: Ghost_403
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for the record I still think snb is really scummy
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I'm unconcerned with the merits of SnB's claim. I'm concerned with the fact that his initial claim was intended to reveal all the information he had regarding him being 'miller' and to inform us of what happens. His explanation was he'll return scum to some checks and town to some checks. No details on the when or why it might be one or the other.
Also of note:
I am a self-aware miller.
Is there some rule against using the flavor? It's incredibly relevant in a themed game with a Closed setup.
Once Hiro puts two and two together,
we get this from SnB:
my role PM says that rolechecks on me before half the players in the game are dead will return detective and after that point they will return suspicious detective.
It was in his Role PM. This didn't get suddenly revealed later. It's also way easier to understand how the return check mechanics work as opposed to
I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town.
Blatant lie in an effort to save himself from DT checks...because he's scum. This is pretty cut and dry.
##Vote: StrongandBig
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How about this - we kill ghost today because he's scum. Hiro or some other DT checks me tonight. I come back town and we realize I'm telling the truth?
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On September 02 2012 00:54 Zephirdd wrote:
[b][red]Solarsail has been modkilled for martyring, editing post and straight up insulting(via PM). There will be no replacement.
He flips Detective. Other punishments will follow.
Not martyring. I will be banned for X games or semi-permanently per the rules.
There was no extra post content before editing.
Wasn't insulting you or your moderators, they are doing a good job. Said I was leaving this subforum in reply as to the reason why I posted what I did.
Don't make it sound like I've done anything other than quit.
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EPT
