Newbie Mini Mafia XXI
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 10 2012 07:55 Probulous wrote: LoL op is 4 neebz0rz y i read that?!?My dear newbie, welcome to Newbie Mini Mafia XXI. For your comfort I have written a through OP which has some very important information. If you wish to play, please read it ... Just kidding, I promise not to be that guy that makes you regret hosting the game. I do have a lot of questions though, mostly about the roleblockers. If the jailer roleblocks the mafia roleblocker, who in turn RBs someone else, I assume the jailer takes precedence? And vice versa, if the mafia roleblocks the jailer who roleblocks someone else? Does a RBd veteran still survive a hit? That one's a stretch but just theoretically... What if the vigilante hits the roleblocker and the roleblocker blocks the vigilante? Also, if the mafia is down to one and is jailed, is KP still 1 even from jail? I think I need a PEMDAS equation here or something. And also, in case I die early, could I be switched to an observer to neutrally observe the rest of the game? Okay, I'm done | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
I assume it will be apparent whether you have been roleblocked by the jailer or the mafia? Will you provide any more information on the role list - such as whether or not it is randomly generated and whether each role is unique or duplicates are possible? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 10 2012 12:01 Crossfire99 wrote: If it is a particularly heated discussion then I don't even think you could catch up on all the posts in 20 minutes IMO, observing would be a better choice, join back in on 22 if you wish.I only played in 3. This would be my 4th. According to my last game, I believe it was decided that the wording in the op says you can sign up if you have been in 3 or less games. This means that this game can be my 4th. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 11 2012 07:39 Probulous wrote: Did you edit that in? I read/scanned the OP 4 or 5 times and missed it every single time.What part of read the OP don't you understand? It is in the OP. It should be read. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:34 YourHarry wrote:Can framer throw blanket over himself? Can vigilante kill himself? I was able to think of at least one situation where vigilante should kill himself Could you enlighten me on this one? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
So, day 1, no one knows anything eh? Let’s get the conversation rolling and pull the lurkers out to get the mafia talking. The town benefits from clarity, transparency, and direction, so I’ll try my best to encompass these into my posts. Please call me out, for whatever reason, if you notice that this isn’t the case. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 08:59 Evulrabbitz wrote:Since it's newbie games I feel people haven't really gotten a feel for their preferable playstyle and thus I deem meta analysis worthless. I have to disagree with you here. We saw firsthand how hapa crushed hopeless last game with a thorough meta-analysis. This means it is at least worth something. Having said that, I think it will be less useful this game since those who saw what happened will be more careful to avoid similar mistakes. And some players (like me) have no history to analyze. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 09:35 Hapahauli wrote: I agree with you in that meta is very fickle, and best used sparingly after more important tells. I was trying to say I thought it did have some use, though. A consideration I had in analyzing game XX was a ‘what if’ in the other direction. What if the meta accusation against hopless had been wrong - the potential swing in the other direction could have been huge. A townie lynched, and quite possibly another townie the next day because of the incorrect case. Very risky and not a perfect method, and it did end up being wrong later, but some usefulness. Hey folks! I rolled Vanilla Townie (again) - let's lynch us some scum! One of the lessons I learned from the last game (Newbie Mini Mafia XX) was how fickle meta-analysis can be. My case against Hopeless was mostly based around him mis-representing evidence and fingerpointing. The Meta was the icing on the cake. Also note that my cases/meta arguments against two players (Release and JingleHell) were ulitmately wrong. While meta has a place as supplemental evidence against players who are not self-aware of their own history, Otherwise, it lead you on a goose chase after a player who's in a bad mood in a particular game. To re-iterate, meta is icing on the cake. We should always look for suspicious behavior and mafia-motive before even considering something like meta. Calling people out already, I love it!Suspicious behavior like the bolded part below: That's a really subtle way to point out your newbieness. That's some mafia behavior right there. FOS calgar You make a very interesting inference there, hapa. You infer that my lack of mafia history on TL equates to newbieness. I have in fact played many games of Mafia before and am not a newb. I don’t plan to use newbieness as any kind of excuse for my actions. I agree when taken out of context (--snip--) it could be interpreted how you did, as a subtle suggestion of ‘newbieness’. But I meant to use it as a supporting fact as to why I think meta will be less effective this game. Here are my thoughts: this is a newbie game, after all, so bringing attention to newbieness is only useful insofar as creating an excuse/cover for anti-town play. “forgive me for acting stupid and spreading confusion, I’m a newb LOLOL”. If there is no suspicious behavior to cover up then it doesn’t have value as a cover. Moreover, I think that the ‘newb cover’ strategy has been way overplayed. Kind of like the lurk-and-hope-no-one-notices-you strategy. I would imagine any mafia trying to use such an obvious excuse like that would only be drawing unwanted attention. In other words, a very poor game move so early that intelligent players would not make. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 11:21 JingleHell wrote: You guys may end up being be right but I'm not expecting anything to come easily. I suppose we'll have to wait and see. Very quiet first night so far, though, so not much to be done really.I fully expect to see at least one player go too obviously "hard-counter" to the scum-tells in the various guides. If we don't get at least one high-profile scum, I'll be shocked. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 11:35 JingleHell wrote: I think you're reading into my words way too much. I mean them as plainly as possible - I'm not aiming to have any subtle ulterior-motive second speech going on. I agree, make something happen or lose. Difficult when people are not posting, though, agreed? Thus talking to try and instigate said discussion, agree? Should I rather become silent - no, disagree. I'm trying to be as productive as possible - and at least giving other people a little bit to go on and analyze to make decisions for themselves.See, that's suspect in and of itself. "Wait and see" is trouble. Make something happen or lose. And just your bit about not expecting things to come easily, just sounds like you're hoping to plant seeds of doubt early, so that you can point to it later when you go WIFOM crazy on us. What on earth are you talking about here? Why are you predicting that I will point to seeds of doubt later that I haven't even laid?What I said in my last post: 1: you guys may be correct that mafia will reveal with obvious tells. 2: i'm going to give them more credit than that though 3: very little dialogue occurring currently. What you say: you're going to turn on us with your seeds of doubt. Not very logical, imo. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 11:50 JingleHell wrote: Interesting that you say that, considering it (and the the rest of my post) has instigated a discussion with you. Hence you reading into meanings of words whereas actions suggest otherwise. "Yes guys let's wait and see and not accomplish anything meaningful so that mafia can win easily" --> discusses. The first is what you suggest my motive to be, with just those 3 words, but does it not contradict the second? This goes back to my point with hapa - it seems very unintelligent to give yourself away so early. I think this 'tell' you're picking up on is unintentionally distracting from the real issue."Wait and see" is mutually exclusive with "instigate discussion". And I mean exactly what I say about seeds of doubt. You could easily be working with a scum ulterior motive. Saying you don't expect things to be easy is basically just invoking WIFOM without saying anything, in a way that could be used to cover things you say later. I'm just trying to promote discussion since it's slow right now. I don't even think this conversation is really about anything, other than you being suspicious of my words in ways I didn't intend them to be meant, so why would I point to it later? Seems like accusations, voting, and who suspects who would be much more important down the line. I'm not following your line of reasoning there.Remember, in this game, it's about finding a way to cooperate in an intentional atmosphere of mutual distrust. We have to find enough grains of information hidden within the subtext of the conversation to negate some portion of the scum's information advantage. Everything you say or do has to be treated like there's the potential for an ulterior motive, until and unless you're confirmed townie. In summary - I seem to have stepped onto the hot plate, so to speak, but I'll accept that to generate discussion. I think you can read into just about anything as much as you want. I just don't think there's actually any substance here. I hope that makes sense. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 12:15 JingleHell wrote: No, I'm not contradicting myself. You're just not making sense. I pointed out that you said something that's at best bizarre and at worst scummy, so now you're trying to twist it into something completely different than what it was. The real issue you're accusing me of being distracted from is the real issue of finding and lynching scum. In what way is pointing out dangerous statements distracting from that? There's not going to be much substance to any conversation at this point. There can't be, with nobody weighing in. So, when there's almost nothing to discuss, you talk about what you can talk about, so that if there's a case down the line, you're in a good position. Also, it's very shady to say "the scum wouldn't do that". We can't know what the scum would or wouldn't do yet. It's all guesswork. It always will be until we have information. In fact, just pointing to "Well, scummy behavior would be X, see how I'm not doing that" sounds scummy as all hell, since the only people who know what the scum have planned are the scum. I'm really curious though, when there's no votes (I hate the risk of early bandwagons), and if you think this accusation is such a pointless distraction and so on, why are you squirming around so much under this very light pressure? Well, it seems as though I can only dig my hole deeper. I'll section my paragraphs to respond correspondingly to yours. I'm not trying to twist anything at all. I'll rephrase my argument as you say I'm not making any sense. Here is my take: This started because of the "bizarre and at worst scummy" lines 'wait and see' and 'not expecting it to be easy'. The root of this suspicion is that you believe these lines hint/suggest/promote anti-town behavior (I am mafia and have blown my cover in 3 hours - sorry I have to giggle at this). Discussion is pro-town. My posts caused discussion, so based on the previous, it was pro-town, in some sense at least. Do you agree with that? That was the point I was trying to make. Whatever message you see behind the words, there is discussion between us now. I'm not trying to twist anything and I stand by my previous words. Part of the reason I said I didn't expect it to be easy is because I specifically remember reading in a TL thread here that mafia had historically usually won these types of games. There were some notable exceptions where that wasn't the case. I can't remember the thread (someone may know or I can dig if you'd like), but that is where my rationale is coming from. I agree completely here. Pointing out dangerous statements is not distracting, in any way, from finding and lynching scum so you are correct in that regard. There isn't much substance to talk about. I agree with you here again. I see that you're barking up the only tree there is right now. I just happen to think that it's the wrong tree. That's all I mean by saying its a distraction. I don't mean to dismiss it though, so if you're unsatisfied I can try to answer more thoroughly. I disagree with you here on point 4, strongly. We can use logic to assume that mafia will behave rationally and in a way to maximize their chances of winning. This includes not posting silly giveaways that you can spot instantly. Maybe I'm just giving people too much credit here? I am speculating as to potential strategy based on what would give them the best chance of winning. Thus, when I say that it would be silly for mafia to reveal themselves in several hours when they could have lurked, I think you will agree with me, no? I'm really curious though, when there's no votes (I hate the risk of early bandwagons), and if you think this accusation is such a pointless distraction and so on, why are you squirming around so much under this very light pressure? A very interesting question jingle. Before I answer, let me ask you a question in return. Why did I continue posting, instead of saying good night and stopping after hapa was satisfied with my answer? Especially when 5/12 have not posted yet (yes, I'm tracking, I think it's useful to know). The simple answer is that I'm just trying to talk more. Not squirming, just talking. Squirm has a connotation of guilt. What makes you think that I am squirming? I've done my best to calmly and rationally use logic here. I understand where you're coming from and see your points. I ask that you try to make an effort to see from my point of view. Off to sleep now. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
The only reason you're in this discussion is because Jingle thought what you said was (or could be interpreted as) scummy. He explicitly prevented you from waiting by pressuring you now. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 16 2012 10:26 tube wrote: I found this post to be rather odd. It doesn't seem like you're putting any time or thought into your posts - just what randomly comes to mind. You said lurking isn't a good idea but that's what you've managed to do so far. I feel the same way about your intro post.in a game this small where everyone said "i will be active" i dont think lurking is a good idea for anyone, esp mafia IGMEOY | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
One – I agree that tube has graced us with terrible posts. It seems like he may not entirely understand the game. His post history outside the game is mostly similar one-liners with little effort so that seems to be his overall posting style. His behavior is decidedly anti-town as it stands. Two – Nice of you to grace us with a single post, iamperfection. I feel like this may have been somewhat buried so I’d like to bring it back to people’s attention. I want to call to attention poor logic and assumptions. On July 17 2012 00:42 iamperfection wrote:It means i got me eye on you google is kind of usefull. Your logic:Although calgar's premise is wrong. I think a mafia member is more likely to put much more thought into their posts then a non mafia member. From my 1 game of experience in which i played more of a lurker role as a mafia member the other 2 members put a ton of thought and effort into their posts. Even as going as far as having the coach review their posts before posting them to see what they thought. Hmm, so my premise about his anti-town behavior is wrong, based on your limited observations of being mafia last game? What?! First, that’s a terrible sample size. Second, it’s fallacious to assume that anything in your previous games has any relevance on how people will act in this one. Poor logic and mafia-like. What relevance does your specific last game have at all to our situation here? You are by far looking the more sucpicious right now. The accusation on tube is telling to me. After the heat on you it seems you like you know want to set up a policy of lynching lurker or people that do one liners. Instead of drving the attention on one person it appears to me you are trying to get us looking at a whole group in order to confuse the town It looks like you just scanned my post quickly and attacked it as “trying to shift suspicion”. Did you even read it or consider what I meant? It seems like many others agree with me about his anti-town behavior. It seems you’re defending anti-town behavior of tube here. FOS Calgar Also, i think there is a possibility yourharry post was an attempt to get attention away from calgar smaller FOS on YourHarry Why are you suggesting that I have some grand strategy of people to lynch? It looks to me like I made one very specific post about a single player. Yet I have plans of setting up a lynching policy to "confuse the town". Putting words into my mouth - very suspicious. Your post strikes me as if you were mafia and were planning how to enter the game late. You decided to jump onto someone’s reasoning bandwagon to try and avoid attention. Why do I say this? You make no effort in original thought. To me it looks like you scanned the thread, looked at who had been attacked, and said “Oh yeah I agree, FOS on the same two guys as jingle”. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 06:30 Evulrabbitz wrote: Meta analysis is analyzing the post history to compare patterns of previous games to the present. Potentially useful.Calgar; Explain yourself. If it isn't obvious; In the first statement you say that meta is worth something, in the second you previous games have no effect on this one. I misspoke when I said "anything" when attacking iamperfection. He's not referring to meta here, though. I mean, more specifically, that I considered his particular example to be poor and irrelevant. Because he's talking about a strategy that different people used in a different game to try and justify why tube is acting suspicious/anti-town currently. The difference is that meta compares the same person across two games whereas he is comparing a strategy used by mafia (and two players not in this game) to this one. A comparison he makes to defend tube as not being mafia-like, because mafia would put more effort into their posts. Clear? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 06:45 tube wrote: Our advice seems to be falling on deaf ears, here. Why don't you read my summary of iamperfection again, I think it was very suspicious and poorly written post on his part (and his only one, to boot).didnt i beat both of you to it well looks like mufaa is also convinced that my active lurking is a scumtell despite the fact that i already said i dont suspect anyone and again i dont see a reason to bandwagon me for not being careful with accusations You say you don't suspect anyone but it doesn't seem like you're even trying, either. You aren't helping town out at all so town is naturally going to be suspicious. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 07:05 tube wrote: No, you were right. I was just suggesting that since you had no suspicions you could see what you thought about mine. As a way to try and become a more active participant. Also, your posts are slightly difficult to understand because of awkward formatting. Could you try using sentences and punctuation?yeah i dont see the need to put the effort into quoting each argument and pointing exactly where somebody is trying to make an accusation out of thin air when if people just looked at them they would realize there is statistically an 8/11 chance that whoever they're accusing is town because their argument was empty to begin with, in that people just pick out innocuous tidbits of a post and try to make it seem like something a mafia would say (sometimes even extrapolating to create an even less believable post, you being the repeat offender of this one) ? i was wrong in my response to evulrabbitz or what is this about? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 07:30 tube wrote:Also, if you think putting words into people's mouths is suspicious, take a look at JingleHell's early posts against me that sparked the entire bandwagon. He does it multiple times by saying that I basically said so and so and therefore was clearly playing against town. Ah, your first real post of the game - congrats! There is a difference in the two, though. Jingle (and others) have made you talk. Discussion has been generated and you are using punctuation and sentences now. iamperfection came in, dropped a rash accusation, and disappeared. No discussion, no benefit to the town. Different, no? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 08:40 Obvious.660 wrote:You are correct about my reading. I didn't read it super closely. It still has your style laced into it, it's just hidden behind capital letters and almost-paragraphs. This is what I get for reading on my mobile device. Not that you're cleared of suspicion, but I tunneled on you hard and I need to back up and re-assess, and certainly give you the chance to participate before I throw you under the bus. My eyes were on you, and only you, and that's something scum would love to see if you are town. I'm sorry about that. I wish I had more to go on regarding my other suspicions, their inactivity left me not much else to look for. I understand what you mean about re-assessing; it's a big turn and it deserves careful thought. I think it's important to ask a few questions in regards to the 'change'. Is it such a big change after being nagged and attacked? I did request that he use sentences and punctuation. Would YOU have a philosophical change like that mid game? Does it make more sense for a townie or a mafia to change styles? Is the more complicated answer really the best one? This is what I've been thinking.We're coming up on 24 hours soon, which means 24 to go. Ample opportunity to change my vote. The vote remains until a more suitable candidate arises. It's certainly suspect but I am currently inclined to read town. I think it's a very risky strategy to try and escape suspicion because of a philosophical change. Very prone to backfire and I would think he would have had to plan it before the game even began. His last game was in 2011 and he posted similarly to how he did at the beginning of our thread (for what little use that meta-analysis is). | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:43 Evulrabbitz wrote: Noted regarding the time zone.I have been quiet because I have nothing to add. I picked at your post because I thought it was poorly worded and wanted a clarification. I have noticed that the majority of players are from the United States so I want to point out right now that I am from Sweden, which is in the CEST time zone (at the moment). I consistently read the thread to keep up with discussion but unless there is heated discussion or I have something that is worth adding immediately I usually post late evening/night (E.g it's 3AM here at the moment). Nevertheless, 8 pages of discussion and you have nothing to add? Discussions, accusations, voting have been going on and you don't have anything to say? No suspicions? Your lack of posting is anti-town currently. I would like to refer you to obvious' previous quote because I think it is applicable here. On July 17 2012 07:26 Obvious.660 wrote:You need to share what you know and what you believe. It's important because if you are town and get randomly chosen (assuming no better target exists for mafia) tonight and die, you have contributed nothing of value and we will never really know why you were chosen. Maybe they got tired of reading your posts. Maybe they want to use you as a vehicle of suspicion on others who had formed opinions against you or defended you. Bottom line - having no opinion is not playing town-safe I think that's it for me tonight - I'm still IGMEOY iamperfection. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 13:30 iamperfection wrote: You've managed to vaguely reply to my post, yet you've addressed none of the content.And two can play at this game calgar i still got my eye on you. You've lurked and been generally unproductive. You come in and point two fingers immediately but fail to later support your case. You get your case from another person and add no thought to it. You use poor logic and disregard my direct questions to you. ##Vote iamperfection | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
1. @jingle and @hapa – jesus christ guys chill out already. Your back and forth is unproductive, distracting, spammy, and most importantly, anti-town. That is reason enough to stop, immediately. Deal with your issues outside of the thread. 2. My strongest mafia read is iamperfection. He has completely ignored my questions and has posted little. He has jumped to conclusions and used poor logic. He’s either mafia or a townie playing extremely poorly. Once again he just targets whoever is already receiving heat, in this case obvious (his logic isn’t as terrible this time around, but still). Very safe vote to make that doesn’t require him to do anything risky. He backs off of me when I vote him to avoid any confrontation. I acted very differently when people accused me – I took them seriously. I gave thorough responses and addressed concerns. He has ignored them. I suspect he is sliding by right now because of the large number of other targets currently being thrown around. 3. @jingle – can you briefly summarize the crux of your suspicions in two or three sentences? I ask because to me, obvious reads town. I think he reads town because: 1- He also has a read on iamperfection, who I think is a good d1 lynch choice 2- He casts FOS on yourharry early on, who I am inclined to think is mafia (see #4). 3- I think the ‘under the bus’ was read into similarly to how I was read into earlier 4- I think he tunneled and overanalyzed whereas a simpler solution may be more likely in the case of his rash tube accusation. 5- He tries to coax fulla into posting, which fulla ignores. I tried to coax evul into posting, which evul ignores. 6- In conclusion, obvious and I seem to be playing a very similar game. IMO, the only thing that separates him from me is his vote and unvote against tube. As an afterthought, he’s read me as town so I am slightly more inclined to believe him. Maybe a clever psychological play on his part. 4. I’m inclined to change my vote to yourharry now. I would like to go with my read but I realize my single vote isn’t going to matter if no one else feels the same way. Here’s why: 1- I like hapa’s case and think it is well-thought out. I agree with most of his points. 2- those one liners that yourharry posted really pissed me off. Anti-town play and spam. 3- he voted for jingle and I read jingle as strongly town 4- his posting style changes after he is accused. Look at his posts 1-14 in the thread. They seem to be useless, spam, and 1-liners. Until he is accused, and all the sudden he’s dropping paragraphs. Maybe he’s blue and trying to lay low but he played it very poorly if that’s the case. ##Unvote ##Vote YourHarry | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
@YourHarry On July 18 2012 04:27 YourHarry wrote:1. I responded against hapha's case. Please read it and let me know what you think. I see your reasoning and think a lot of it makes sense. You’ve still behaved in an anti-town manner which is why I am suspicious in the first place. You can’t deny it’s suspicious to say “we need to vote it’s getting close” followed by “I don’t know, abstain”. 2. I pissed you off by posting one liners! LOL. Anyways, is it anti-town? Hmm, I guess putting in more thoughts and reasoning behind the posts would serve the town better. But after I read the posts, I did not have a strong opinion. So I posted one liners to incite some reactions. Either way, is it a sign of scum? I don't particularly see a reason why scum would want to bring attention to himself by posting spam one-liners to piss people off. Yes, those posts annoyed me. Tube also, judging from his comment. The town benefits from direction, clarity, and transparency. Your posts have contained none of that in many cases. You’re WIFOMing me now but it’s anti-town regardless. On July 18 2012 04:34 YourHarry wrote: And calgar, how could you! After I defended your "wait and see" comment This is the kind of stuff I’m talking about. What is the point of this post? You defended me, so what, I don’t owe you any loyalty when you have been posting like you have. Act pro-town and you’ll earn my trust. OK. How should i have played if I wanted to lay low, LOL. I am BTW not claiming blue here LOL. WIFOM LOL. Are you role hunting here?!! I start to ramble here; I’m not sure exactly what I mean. Wondering why your posting was useless for a time and throwing out random/unlikely possibilities. Apologies for lack of clarity. In summary, I think your play has been anti-town but perhaps not enough to warrant a vote. Regardless, it doesn’t look like my vote will matter today. I’ll leave it on you for now considering people won't go for my other choices. @ people voting for obvious.660 I still disagree with going for obvious. He has tried to be active, promote discussion, and make reads. I think he's posted a little carelessly and everyone is targeting him now. These mistakes are being interpreted for mafia but I'm seeing it as a town who is trying to be proactive. We still have mufaa and iamperfection playing like sheep, like 2 posts, weak reads, no content. I consider both to be a better lynch than obvious.660. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 05:15 Mufaa wrote: Thank you for posting that - I just attacked you a second ago because you had no posts in like the last 24 hours. I withdraw my comment because I agree with your reasoning.+ Show Spoiler + Ok, just re-read the filters. Fulla and Evulrabbitz: Where are you? Post a thought of some sort, it's almost the end of D1 and you haven't even posted suspicions once. Regarding Obvious.660's scum list, that doesn't necessarily mean he is scum. I do agree that posting full lists usually doesn't help, but in the previous game I played and from what I've seen in random other games the scum are usually hiding behind lists after someone else has posted one so they know they won't get massive flack for it. I'm not sure about Obvious in general, but that list is far from incriminating in my eyes. Currently I'd like to see a lynch on Iamperfection since every person he attacks is already the focus of the thread. The only really unique thing he has contributed is that Calgar probably isn't scum since Calgar voted for him after Iamperfection voted for Calgar. He then follows that up by not addressing Calgar's legitimite points (poor logic, bandwagoning, ignoring questions) and says "if anyone else wants to come at me, bring it." This reeks of scum just staying active while not actually contributing anything. If he was town he'd have no reason to be so hostile there, Calgar wasn't getting heated when questioning him. What are you so defensive about Iamperfection? ##Vote Iamperfection On July 17 2012 22:36 iamperfection wrote: Isnt posting meaningless lists about every one in the game a way that mafia try to do to buy town cred. By being non commital you are trying to keep you options open so nothing can be used against you later. In fact the first guide that is posted in this thread states that what you just did is something scum do to try and hide. Why would a townie try and do something like that. I would say you are reading a diffrent section of the guide. ## Vote Obvious.660 I remove my FOS calgar I dont think a scum player would just outright vote for me after i acussed them. And if anyone elses wants to come after the perfect one i say bring it. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 05:47 YourHarry wrote: I couldn't tell, apologies. I'm more critical of everything you say now because I don't like what I've read into you motive-wise.OK... Wait a sec. I obviously was joking here... | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 05:51 drwiggl3s wrote: The fact that he hasn't posted to defend himself, the fact that no one is strongly defending him, tells me that he's probably not mafia. I'm defending him, have you read my posts?! I would be trying harder if it didn't seem it was already a foregone conclusion. Let's see who's voting him? iamperfection - I think he's mafia. evul - won't post content; ignored my request to do so. tube, yourharry - people who have come under fire for post quality. jingle. Overall, I don't think it's the most reliable group that's casting the vote here. It seems like an easy vote to make with no risk. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 05:56 Hapahauli wrote: Yes, I'll do my best.NOTE: I have to catch a train and I'll be gone until close to the lynch deadline. Can I rely on you to lobby for the iamperfection lynch Calgar? I'll vote for anyone at this point that I think is more likely to be mafia than obvious.660. iamperfection has a bad history so I think he is a good option instead. I don't mean to be wishy-washy and go back and forth but it's a scramble at this point to try and swing the vote. ##Unvote YourHarry ##Vote iamperfection | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:03 JingleHell wrote: That wasn't my "grounds", that was drwiggles. I've outlined several reasons I think he has displayed pro-town play.And how many of those people considered you suspicious at one point in time? Casting aspersions based on that oh-so in-depth analysis of our posting to try and swing the vote off of obvious, on the grounds that "he's scum because nobody is strongly defending him" except, of course, for you and hapa... hmmm. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:12 JingleHell wrote:Well, frankly, your entire town read involves him agreeing with you, based on the rather smallish case against perfection, and the case against harry. Literally anyone could see harry as suspicious now, and perfection hasn't posted enough to be regarded as scummier than anyone yet. You've mis-characterized my read as simpler than it is. It's not only because we agree.Perfection's low volume and semi-suspicious content don't strike me as being quite worth a vote without seeing context based on how a lynch target flips. He could either be scummy or just too inactive, at this point, as I already stated. I think, based on his limited post history, iamperfection is a better lynch (where is he, anyways...?). I'd rather vote for someone with few posts that displays decidedly mafia-esque behavior than someone with many more who has had positive town impact in posts and some shifty reads/decisions. All negative in one case whereas there is some positive in the second, leading to a higher percentage of successful lynch. That's my theory. -He operates with the principle "Form an opinion, roll with it, see what information it can get you. Don't sit on the sideline and let everyone else do the work." A pro-discussion principle which he follows. -He convinces tube to become a useful player by questioning him. This is decidedly pro-town. -He tunnels and makes a bad read, as he says and backs off. The theory is attractive in some sense; if a personality change did occur then it would be possible that it were coached. He just overestimated the personality shift that occurred. Bad read, which he then backs off of. Why would mafia go out on the line like this with a bold call, and then retract? This is WIFOM I know... -He puts up content voluntarily for people to discuss, which is more than others have been doing in the way of discussion promoting. I guess I'm having a hard time defending him. What's there is there, it's just how you interpret it. It would be nice if he showed up. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:42 JingleHell wrote: Well, it looks decided so I rest my case. If you're right then I have a lot to reconsider.And frankly, I don't expect Obvious to be a mislynch. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:24 JingleHell wrote: You would claim vanilla townie so as to not negate the value.Why would you claim vet, though? It totally negates the value of it as a role. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:28 JingleHell wrote: I'm just answering your question. Claiming vet would not have saved him - mufaa misspoke in that regard. He would have had to be present in the thread and arguing for himself to make any difference. Even then maybe not.Oh, great idea. Ok, since we can trust anyone who claims townie, let's just ask. Guys, who's scum? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 19 2012 02:51 JingleHell wrote: I stand behind my pressure, but I'm not going to be stupid about it and die for no reason on the off chance that I'm wrong and he was just a bad townie. Anyone who would do so is either anti-town or astoundingly dumb.How is it scummy to ask you to be confident in your read, when you want someone to be killed on such a tiny amount of evidence? If you're so confident that the risk of him flipping town doesn't exist, you should certainly feel safe being directly associated with his potential death that way. It's the same risk every single person takes when they cast their vote. If it's a mislynch, you're tied to it. If you try to tell the vigi to kill someone, and it's wrong, you should be associated with the suggestion you made. If you're not all that confident that he's scum that you're willing to take credit for it, then it's not wasted time to put pressure on him before killing him. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
@hapa I’ll agree with you that it may be too soon to call a vig hit. I’m with you on the YourHarry case. Whatever they say, it’s process of elimination and if out of 11 players remaining there are 6-7 behaving town-ish and 3-4 behaving mafia-ish then we need to go for those in the 3-4. Fulla doesn’t know what’s going on which is funny to me in some sense. Better case for being a bad-townie I think than YourHarry. But it’s definitely anti-town play. I’d say YourHarry is higher on the list because his anti-town play is more extensive. about iamperfection: The problem is that, as far as I’m concerned, we’re already at the end of the road. He’s either mafia or a bad townie. Watching him post more bad reads, contradictions, and poor logic (which he continues to do) isn’t going to change any of that. He’s already crazy suspicious, what is more dirt on him going to do? It’s still back to the basic problem of whether or not he’s just a bad town. An invest on him is risky because he is a likely candidate for the role change cloak since so much attention is targeted at him. I've got to laugh and shake my head at "ill be back later tonight" that he said. Did he consider the chance of being killed? So sure that he won't be? Probably right, since he's so anti-town. Even if he was town they wouldn't touch him. His haphazard play would be poor for both town and mafia so it's a tough call. @fulla There isn’t much to say about you. I’ll start with your pledge at the beginning of the game “I will be active Very active /in x100” You don’t seem so excited now. You contribute absolutely nothing in the first 24 hours. You seem to have contributed a fair amount in your magic mafia game so don’t know what happened. You make one or two short posts that contribute relatively little content-wise. You said “Where the hell is obvious?” - my response to that is where the hell are YOU? I don’t even have anything to analyze here you’ve been so inactive. @YourHarry You’ve been called out for anti-town play and you haven’t done a single thing in my eyes to change. I can’t come up with a list this long for any other player besides iamperfection. 1. Your “read” on how fulla is “positively town” is very bad logic. Piling on to a vote right before the deadline is far from pro-town. I’m pretty sure you’re the only one getting that feeling because he is crazy suspicious to me. You then backtrack – see #9. 2. You lack any strong reads or dedicated suspicion. See what I’m doing here with this list? 3. I think it’s possible that you bussed iamperfection in your post: “Jingle, iamperfection, tube... Can't be this easy right.” 4. Your analysis of obvious’ summary quote as sounding like “like forced narration to seem pro townie” is a weak justification for piling onto the veteran. In fact, your words sound like what is quoted. 5. My reads are all different than yours so maybe I just suck. Or maybe you’re purposely spreading suspicion on other players I have pegged as town. 6. “And, I want you guys to be convinced that if tube is town, so am I.” WHAT? You just called him out for being suspicious for piling on. Where does this one liner come from? Where is your reasoning, your logic? Why would a town drop random one-liners like that making vague suggestions about innocence. You don’t need to claim innocence, you show it, which you haven’t. 7. Your posts have attempted to spread blame to me (subtly), jingle, iamperfection, tube, and obvious. Which is it, now? 8. You began the game with contentless, spammy, directionless one-liners until you were pressured. Anti-town as I have said before. You even agree with me on this one! 9. Your votes lack conviction and you backtrack. Obvious backtracked also but we agreed on most things and he pressured people to talk. That's why I felt strongly he was town. You happen to share neither category with obvious. 10. Mind telling me what this great excuse that explains your anti-town play is? “(LOL, this is actually exactly how I acted on D1, but I have an excuse )” Your days are numbered playing like this. IGMEOY iamperfection, YourHarry, fulla As for town direction, I propose to pressure the above and decide from there. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Your case is weak right now but I’ll grant you a reply. On July 19 2012 07:57 JingleHell wrote: If Perfection is scum, the calling for a vigi hit was an attempt to earn calgar town credit, and if Perfection is town, he's an easy sell for a mislynch. Wait, what? If he is mafia, then you’re suggesting that I’m mafia and I voted to kill another mafia, to boost my town cred, when you are saying to leave the mafia alive for more questioning? Doesn’t that mean I am currently pushing for a mafia player to get killed, while you are arguing to leave him alive? Explain to me how that makes ANY sense. If he is town, we’ll never really be able to know – see my thoughts on him and why an invest isn’t very useful. Regardless, Calgar's late in the day effort to "Save" obvious once it became clear saving him would be difficult looks like an effort at town cred. It's heavy WIFOM, but it was a mediocre effort, and too little too late. Certainly not enough to make him look clean to me. You argued to kill a town member, I argued to save him. How does this ‘mediocre’ effort by a vote you caused with a POOR READ reflect guilt on my part? It was clear to me by inactivity and lack of conversation that people were going to stick their vote and not listen. I don’t understand how trying to save the townie made me look more guilty. If hopeless and one vote had swung over, iamperfection could have gotten 5 votes first.Furthermore, he jumps votes like it's going out of style, and despite pushing his side bandwagon on perfection late D1, he didn't change his vote until he got Hapa onboard with it. Check the timing in the filter. Despite his seeming desperation to "save" obvious by pushing perfection, Calgar left his vote on YourHarry until AFTER Hapa changed votes. What? I jump votes like it’s going out of style to SAVE A TOWN MEMBER. How has this escaped your notice? You have some master vision of my theory crafting and play in order to build credit. Don’t you think these pro-town actions might have a simpler expalantion? I didn’t change my vote until after hapa because I was being resourceful to pool votes to wherever they could go. I thought YourHarry or iamperfection were better D1 lynches so I would have voted either to save obvious. I switched because we got a third onto iamperfection and it looked plausible that we might swing it over.Go back to the very beginning of D1, he was pointing to his lack of history to analyze, and hoping to cast doubts on the various methods people can use to spot scum. He was actively spreading the seeds of doubt for any analysis that could be directed his way. Your language is much more cloudy and less straightforward than mine. WTF do you mean with “seeds of doubt”. Why are you speaking like you’re a poet? Your previous argument was based on suspicious words like “under the bus”. Where did that get you?This second one casts huge WIFOM type doubts around, he can point to it later as needed. "See guys, I even said back then we should avoid watching this stuff". I’ve voluntarily chosen to be in the spotlight. This is a bad play for mafia – it’s even in the advice guide. Sooner or later you can’t keep up your town cred by making pro town votes (like trying to save a myslynch from you). WIFOM, whatever.Also, Calgar was, at first, one of the people calling me scummy for saying we don't have sufficient info for a vigi kill to feel really safe. When Hapa agreed, I'm suddenly not on Calgar's scumlist in his recent post? Again, "me-too"-ing on Hapa. I’ve never called you scummy. You’ve never been on my scumlist. I read you as strongly town. I’ve said so before, check my filter. I called you out there because your reasoning was stupid. You won’t agree because you are stubborn. That’s just what we have to deal with in a thread that includes you. I'll let it slide because sometimes townies don't always make the best calls (obvious). On July 18 2012 06:42 JingleHell wrote: I would imagine you don't think I'll be a mislynch, either?And frankly, I don't expect Obvious to be a mislynch. @YourHarryCare to respond to anything? Nice OMGUS also. You were joking about defending me earlier. Asking people to claim? There's #12 on my list. "I do not want to disclose that right now." --> anti-town play. #13 | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Look at how I’ve stuck with my strongest D1 read until now. I’ve made my strong reads known. I’ve called out mufaa, evul, and fulla to participate more. I’ve tried to pressure iamperfection into talking more but he doesn’t directly respond. I wasn’t trying to lead the town in the wrong direction with my breadcrumb post, but rather give my reads before N1 ended. In response to accusing jingle of being mafia and saying he’s town – that wasn’t my intention. I’m frustrated at some of his bad logic and how his reads keep being wrong. I think if anyone had been actively posting in the thread or showed any doubts about switching during the D1 vote then I would have tried harder to get them to switch away from obvious. In hind-sight I should have tried harder but that doesn’t matter at this point. In response to YourHarry, I made point #12 very quickly at the end of my pre-typed post. I was confused about what you were suggesting by claiming that people should claim role-blocked but you guys clarified it by the time I posted so I withdrew the claim because I understood what you meant. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 19 2012 22:19 JingleHell wrote: I'm curious. I've said I'll answer anything specific. I don't think it will be productive to go through everyone's huge lists with a long typed up response. Too much clutter.Why are you changing the subject? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 00:33 JingleHell wrote: Your case is WIFOM, what is there to address? I'm spreading seeds of doubt? I flop votes like a bunny on cocaine? Like its going out of style? I lobbied to save a townie as part of a malicious plan? Because hapa is still alive after your silly breadcrumb? You aren't worth a response so you're not going to get another.I personally will be doing this: ##Vote Calgar Until and unless Calgar stops trying to dismiss my case against him as "too long" (too much evidence, lolwut?) and actually responds to it. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 01:53 Hopeless1der wrote: You aren't going to decide for yourself who to lynch D2? This is what the game is all about, it's the crux; why are you playing?I want to see calgar's conviction to stay alive here. Let's see you either convince Jingle of your innocence or iamperfection's scumminess. OTHERWISE I'M VOTING FOR CALGAR. Seriously, I plan to sheep Jingle today regarding the decision on voting for calgar. If Jingle removes his vote, I'll learn to think for myself again. There is too much suspicious dialogue between Jingle, Hapa and calgar for me to make a good read, and I believe Jingle's breadcrumb, so he's the one I'm going to follow. Let's put all the complicated theories aside for a second. Have I managed to help the town at all with any of my actions. Has iamperfection helped the town with any of his actions? Who would you lynch of the two if one has and one hasn't? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 06:12 Hopeless1der wrote: His stated burden of proof is "overwhelming reason". How can any defense, no matter how skillful, meet that standard? It's a forgone conclusion in my eyes.I'm going to put faith into my town read of Jingle and rely on his reaction to your (lack of) defense to determine whether or not I vote for you. I'm giving you multiple ways to get out of being voted. Either push for iamperfection's lynch properly, or post a legitimate defense. Based on my reads, I think iamperfection looks scummier, BUT I also believe that Jingle's breadcrumb is legit and that he is committed to his vote against you. If you cannot convince him to Unvote you, I'm comfortable switching my vote to you, and I'm making this as plain as I possibly can. There is no subterfuge or hidden meanings. Get yourself Unvoted by Jingle or I will vote for you calgar. If you don't think I'm playing the game, I completely disagree. I'm sheeping my town read instead of pushing my scum read. I don't think that's anti-town, as I've made my input on both cases and still have the opportunity to add more later. Its still a play using the information contained within this thread and I still had to make my own decision to commit to this course of action. I've laid out my reasoning that I might switch votes very early and shown the precise event that would cause me to switch. If the town finds my reasoning invalid, I expect to hear about it, and I am ready to defend my actions further if required. Laying aside the complicated theories, WIFOM. Present a defense you lazy bastard or you don't get any more prune juice. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Does it really make sense to you that I would know he's an active townie and a JK and not shoot him? He’s going to point the case at me either way so why would I hold off on killing him? There’s going to be pressure on me either way. Would you pass up on that kill as mafia? I wouldn’t think so - I think evul was a poor choice of hit. He was suspicious to me for lurking and that cleared the town to go after better targets. I thought the breadcrumb was damn obvious but didn’t mention it (at first, until he started attacking me) because I wasn’t sure if other people would see it. Did you guys really not see it? I actually breadcrumbed "JK" for jailkeeper back at him because I thought he was secretly telling me he was JK at first. Then I thought he was asking the jailer to jail me but it didn’t make sense to not just ask straight out. I thought I was clearly reading town at this point so his attack blindsided me. I then thought he might be trying to bait out an attack by YourHarry and then turn back on him before I finally realized. Why I think he's after me + Show Spoiler + Think about who jingle is. He's clearly a townie, and he clearly gets STUCK on an idea, and can't ever be convinced. He’s playing emotionally rather than logically. You can't argue with a bull. He points WIFOM at me and dismisses anything I say and “won’t stoop down your level Calgar”. Here’s my case: + Show Spoiler + Let’s go back to iamperfection who I called out very early. I brought his case up before anyone else, as a matter of fact. If it’s such an obvious case then why was I the first to bring it up? I’d also like to remind you that a confirmed townie was suspicious of him. This is one of the reasons I thought obvious was innocent. Do me a favor and re-read my initial argument: On July 17 2012 06:24 calgar wrote: Two – Nice of you to grace us with a single post, iamperfection. I feel like this may have been somewhat buried so I’d like to bring it back to people’s attention. I want to call to attention poor logic and assumptions.Your logic: Hmm, so my premise about his anti-town behavior is wrong, based on your limited observations of being mafia last game? What?! First, that’s a terrible sample size. Second, it’s fallacious to assume that anything in your previous games has any relevance on how people will act in this one. Poor logic and mafia-like. What relevance does your specific last game have at all to our situation here? It looks like you just scanned my post quickly and attacked it as “trying to shift suspicion”. Did you even read it or consider what I meant? It seems like many others agree with me about his anti-town behavior. It seems you’re defending anti-town behavior of tube here. Why are you suggesting that I have some grand strategy of people to lynch? It looks to me like I made one very specific post about a single player. Yet I have plans of setting up a lynching policy to "confuse the town". Putting words into my mouth - very suspicious. Your post strikes me as if you were mafia and were planning how to enter the game late. You decided to jump onto someone’s reasoning bandwagon to try and avoid attention. Why do I say this? You make no effort in original thought. To me it looks like you scanned the thread, looked at who had been attacked, and said “Oh yeah I agree, FOS on the same two guys as jingle”. I think my case is straightforward and makes sense. Iamperfection has a habit of just jumping onto other people’s suspicions. It’s clear that he’s not even bothering to read the thread. He says neither I nor hapa have made arguments as a reason for us to be suspicious. We both, in fact, do. It’s like he’s playing a different game or all the arguments and evidence is just flying over his head. He then backs off of me after I vote him to avoid a confrontation. Now he’s back at it, tagging onto me with no reasoning. Look at this quote: On July 20 2012 01:24 iamperfection wrote: He bandwagons with jingle again. His second and third sentences are logically disconnected. What does the issue of whether or not mafia picked up on the breadcrumb have to do with how risky it is for jingle to lie? His play is so careless. It's fact that I've challenged people in the thread to talk more. iamperfection has never done this. Why does it seem that I am the only one that feels strongly about this?Jingles claim looks legitamate to me. I'm not buying any crap that jingle should be dead because he bread crumbed. It would be so risky for jingle to lie and hell this is newbie mafia i didnt spot the bread crumb and im sure a lot of players didnt spot it. I think perf is very likely mafia. Even if you think I'm a bit suspicious, I knew jingle was JK so you're saying that mafia knew of the JK and didn't shoot. Why would mafia ever pass up such an easy blue? It looks like the mafia may have missed the breadcrumb. iamperfection missed it and I think he’s mafia. Is this not plausible? Lynch him first – you can always come back to me with more information. My thoughts in regards to calling the ‘vigi hit’ from when I was in the moment. This is the best explanation I can give for my reasoning. + Show Spoiler + I've suggested a vig hit as a means to try and pressure iamperfection to talk. Trying to light a fire was my only intention with the post, I haven't actually considered whether or not it is wise to do yet. Here are my thoughts: It is 8:3 right now and probably 7:3 after night kill. Scenario A: he is mafia No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting him. He dies – mafia is revealed. 7:2 going into night. Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip mafia and glean what we can from that. We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 7:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 7:1 or 6:2 into night. Scenario B: he is confused townie No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting for him. He dies – town is revealed. 6:3 going into night. Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 6:1 or 5:2 into night. Is it a rash call to make the hit? He's one of the impossible-to-tell ones with weak reads, low post count, ignores questions. I think it's basically a big gamble. We mis-lynched which I tried to argue against so this can put us ahead again, or even more behind if he ends up town. I'd want to vote for him anyways, though, for tomorrow during day lynch, so I figure if we are guaranteed to try him then might as well flip him now because if we're wrong about him we're wrong. For wavering + Show Spoiler + I’m trying to show you through my actions that I have pro-town goals. It’s disheartening to be in this position after becoming emotionally invested in the game - that is my explanation for wavering today. I thought about doing what obvious did and I understand why he just walked away. It's incredibly frustrating to be attacked when I'm trying to help the town make progress by encouraging discussion. In regards to asserting my noob and using "wait and see". + Show Spoiler + On July 16 2012 10:07 calgar wrote:You make a very interesting inference there, hapa. You infer that my lack of mafia history on TL equates to newbieness. I have in fact played many games of Mafia before and am not a newb. I don’t plan to use newbieness as any kind of excuse for my actions. I clarify to hapa that I am not a newb and am not planning on using it as an excuse. It doesn't make sense for me to hint at being newb and then directly assert the opposite and that I don't plan on using that excuse in my response. The “wait and see” comment doesn’t mean a thing. Obvious was lynched for similar reasons. That is proof that taking comments out of context is no measure of mafia. My defense for that portion of the conversation, rather than was is paraphrased and put into my mouth, is that I am town because I am making an effort to talk. It would have been very easy for me to disappear after showing up briefly, responding to hapa’s attack, satisfying him with a good answer, and then lurking much more like several other players in the thread have. jingle sums this up with "you're just talking, not doing anything productive". What is my next post, in tacit response to this? I call tube out and eventually get him to become a more active poster. My voting + Show Spoiler + My goal in voting D1 was to try and lynch someone else besides obvious.660 since I read him as town. I swung between people I thought were good targets to try and sway the vote away. On July 20 2012 01:45 JingleHell wrote: There's so much excessive exaggeration here that it blows my stance out of proportion. I "jumped on the tube wagon" to pressure him into talking more. It worked - and guess what, I read him town and backed off. I me-too on hapa because I read him strongly town. I tried to work with him to lobby votes to save obvious.660. 2: Second part of day 1: He jumps on the tube wagon, shifts votes everywhere, and "me-too"s onto myself and Hapa incessantly. Calls for votes on perfection, but doesn't vote for perfection himself until Hapa does. He has his vote on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest scum read quite often. This is false. I was the first person to vote for iamperfection. My strongest read is iamperfection and 2/3 of my votes were for him. How is this "on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest read on"? I changed to YourHarry in an effort to swing momentum over to him to save obvious. I swung it back to my original target after harry defended accusations and I thought the case was stronger on iamperfection once again. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
If you can just explain + Show Spoiler + So, if you can just explain the scummy behavior in your responses to me, and finish with the shortcomings I've already outlined, I'll move on to someone else happily. Well, I’ll explain honestly. The interpretation is up to you. When you dismissed my last night’s post and said you wouldn’t stoop to my level you made me feel powerless. I didn’t understand what you expected from hypothetical townie calgar and thought you had robbed me of my voice. I read you as town but I couldn’t completely stop emotion from getting into my posts. I said in my previous post, for better or worse and however silly, that I’ve become emotionally invested. I’m posting today after encouragement in a different state of mind. I said it blindsided me – this added more to the emotion. If you sense a different player from yesterday to today – this is why. Ad homs and emotion + Show Spoiler + You're still using ad homs and invoking emotion as a response to me. You've started to sort of mention the things I brought up, but not properly. You're accusing me of taking you out of context, yet I'm not. I'm taking you in context of the thread as a whole, at the times of posts. I feel that your overall tone in posting is overly aggressive, condescending, and you have offended me outside the game. I wasn’t kidding about considering giving up and walking away like obvious did - perhaps my skin is too thin. I'll drop that, there's nothing really to discuss about it. That is part of the reason for my tone in response. Because you show signs of a cooler tone and logic I will reply again. As I already explained in my previous post, I have let frustration leak into my posting. That is another reason for the tone.Just for giggles + Show Spoiler + You know what, just for giggles, I'll even give benefit of the doubt on the vigi hit thing, since the numbers at least seem like a reasonable assessment, and it comes down to a gut feeling on whether it's just too damn easy of a target. The breadcrumb and hapa thing, of course, is purely circumstantial and WIFOM, and only applicable if you flip scum, so it doesn't need to be part of your defense, really. Alright, we’ll drop these two. WIFOM + Show Spoiler + Let's face it. You spend more time in your response here asserting that "Since I'm town - WIFOM". That's not an explanation for scummy behavior, that's asserting that people should trust you because you say so. Didn’t you say something along the lines of all arguments can be boiled down to WIFOM? What do we really have as hard evidence as town? We know two flips are certainly town – one produced no information and the other produced some. That’s not much objective information to go off of. Everything else is subjective – how else can I defend myself? I feel like I have acted in a pro-town manner, though. Regardless of what my role is, there is that behavior that is helpful to one side that can be analyzed.You didn't exactly make the post saying you'd been in multiple games elsewhere until Hapa called you out on subtly playing the noob card. A reaction doesn't change the post itself. I think this goes along with the WIFOM. It is what it is; you interpret it how you will. Whatever I say will be WIFOM about it.My voting continued + Show Spoiler + Your original vote on perfection has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you then jumped from one "strong read" to another, with your votes frequently being directly contradictory to your "strongest read", up until you got Hapa to shift a vote, at which point you finally voted for perfection. I felt good about my original vote. Then no one else added on and the votes went up to 4 or 5 (don’t care to sort out the exact timing) vs. just 2. The activity seemed poor to me so I didn’t give the case my all. The logic: YourHarry had 2 votes with me and iamperfection had one. If I switched to iamperfection before I knew that hapa would then it would still be at 2 votes – this doesn’t serve my stated purpose. When hapa responded several minutes later and switched it was then beneficial to switch because it made the count go up to 3 votes. There was a chance hapa might have said “no, I’m sticking with harry”. Switching wouldn’t have mattered then because each had one vote without my support. On obvious.660 + Show Spoiler + You keep pointing fingers back to Obvious to make my case against you look weaker, but you're ignoring that the case against him was a result of his own actions. Was I a major factor in the case? Yes. Do I regret the needless loss of a town vote? Absolutely. Does that make it my fault that he appeared scummy? No. His posts were his downfall, not mine. Your posts are what have me breathing down your neck, and even while putting up this facade of a response, you continue in your need for personal attacks. My only point is that I considered myself aligned with obvious and that we have played similar games. He agreed on my suspicion of iamperfection. Yes it was a result of his inactions and then failure to defend. I’m not sure what your issue is here. I think it’s that I’m giving you a hard time for his death because we disagreed on the read. Is that the case? I can try to respond more if I’m on the right track. If not could you clarify?Hell, the Obvious case, IIRC, you said you saw where I was coming from, but didn't draw the same conclusions. That's a far cry from how you're treating it now, trying to weaponize it against me. Credible job + Show Spoiler + Overall, you're starting to do a credible job of explaining yourself. I can at least accept your explanation for most of the "me-too" attitude, although I do find it foolish to have a strong town read that early in D1. I'm not exactly at the point of no return here, I just want answers, which you've withheld, while acting like it would be some sort of waste to respond, even when it's anything but. If I can stop arguing with Hapa outside of case arguments, surely you'd be able to believe I'd be able to back off on a case I'm actually persuaded is bad. Glad you think so. All I have to go off of is reads – my style is to play a little more trusting then you. It’s risky but I like to think I have allies that I’m working with rather than trusting absolutely no one. As to the “waste to respond” attitude, see my sappy earlier bits about wavering and my last post. My breadcrumb in response to jingle + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 07:50 Hopeless1der wrote: Cant respond in detail yet, but Calgar, where is the breadcrumbed 'JK' you referred to? It’s in the silly bit about reckless animals. Two capitalized letters and the rest is lower case. If you’ll notice I always capitalize, and reverted to my normal writing style immediately after the “secret message” paragraph that started the post. Math + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 08:03 JingleHell wrote: You’re right, I was riled up and accidentally typoed there. It got a little confusing bouncing back between the scenarios.Wait, actually, the numbers on the vigi kill are both from the perspective of him being scum. You say if he flipped town, I can assume that's a brain fart, but it would be 6:3 going into today, had vigi hit him and he was town. I still kinda see the reasoning, but based off of too little evidence like I said. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Here is the direct link to my response crumb: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351398¤tpage=32#635 | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 08:46 JingleHell wrote: I understand what you mean and apologize for my tone. I feel that I've explained as much as I can and don't really have anything else to say about it.Ok, I'm not sure how I've offended you, unless it's by not trusting anyone without reason? This is a cutthroat game. My response about not stooping to your level was directly the result of this post. Can you not see where that's an entirely different type of game than I was trying to play? Quite a few rude comments in there for just getting called out for things I saw as shady. I have no qualms responding rudely to someone who tries to make a "case" against me via ad homs, or someone I dislike (as we've seen) but I try to keep my cases off this level of play, because it just turns into a clusterfuck for all involved. See D2 of XVIII where I was scum and a response like this from a townie turned what was supposed to be "Hey look I'm visible" pressure into an OMGUS "Someone dies" scenario. So I strongly avoid getting dragged down into that kind of argument where real cases are concerned, they're an utter debacle. ##Vote iamperfection | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 09:00 YourHarry wrote: I didn't receive a notification. calgar, if you don't answer this immediately, this is going to make you very suspicious. Under what conditions is someone notified if they are RBed/Jailed? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 09:21 YourHarry wrote: Enough questions from you for now. Why don't you read since I already did link it? calgar, after realizing the breadcrumb, were you every suspicious of Jingle for being scum? also could you provide the link to your breadcrumb, where you communicated to Jingle that you read his? Jingle, did you notice calgar's breadcrumb immediately? Apologies if these have been already discussed. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
You said you wanted me to make a case. What is your read now that you have read my huge explanation? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 00:25 YourHarry wrote:I do think that calgar clarified the rules with the mod via PM or QT which is why I asked: I don't really know if this is outside the scope of the rules/game or not, but if it isn't then the mods will confirm that I received no mod PM regarding the issue in between my posts, which is what you are suggesting.+ Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 09:14 YourHarry wrote: If someone asks a question to mod in QT or via PM, would you answer them via QT or PM? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:25 JingleHell wrote: Your pronouns are a little confusing to me here. Who are you talking about trying to defend Harry? Hapa, meta case please? He's annoying as town, but not this terrible. And frankly, on the incredibly off chance he flips town, I still wouldn't call it a wasted day to ditch him. Any time there's a lull he makes the dumbest possible case? Maybe in the first half of D1 you can argue for that, but that's about it. Frankly, I find it incredibly fishy that someone who's under suspicion would try to defend Harry. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Again, I should not spend more time into arguing regarding this, because I do think that townies are also capable of making this kind of contradiction. Thus, your incapacity to keep track of things you say is NOT the reason why I am suspicious of you, though maybe it should add to it. The fact that you're suspicious of him is suspicious to me. He's done more to promote discussion than anyone else. He's basically always in the thread pouncing on someone or pushing a case. How do you get more town than that?Today, Calgar. But it's beginning to look very hopeless for me. Explain to me why you would ask someone to claim jailer. I don't see any reason that isn't heavily outweighed by town revealing a blue. So your argument about "not wanting to reveal blues" goes directly against you asking jailer to claim. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 02:38 JingleHell wrote:I'll try to have some concise stuff written up during the night since the odds of me making it to the morning are slim, unless there's a medic around. It's risky for mafia to hit you though because if there is a doctor then the NK will be guaranteed to be a waste. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
I also want to propose a temporary solution to iamperfection. I may have been reading his actions on the wrong side of the coin. I’ve said in my previous posts that it boiled down to whether he was mafia or confused townie. At the time we didn’t have anything better to go off of so I considered it to be our best vote in order to maximize the % of killing mafia. What he’s said recently in his vote on YourHarry made me change my mind. His defense of YourHarry shows his reluctance to put the vote there, so he shouldn’t have any trouble changing to match with jingle again. Anyways, what made me doubt my strong stance previously has a lot to do with the flurry of posting last night and today. YourHarry seems to have been pressured into making several revealing plays. Drwiggl3s has positioned himself to look good after the lynch. We can evaluate these more closely, soon. When iamperfection said that his best town read was jingle I understood about him following jingle’s vote. I’ve been sort of doing the same with hapa. Now, to ‘prove’ his townie-ness, let’s get him to agree to vote with jingle every vote. He says he believes jingle is essentially 100% town so he’s going to follow him. As long as he does so, then we have his vote with the town side no matter what his role is. He shouldn’t have any problem agreeing to this since he has said he wants to follow jingle’s vote. We can use this as a temporary stall to eliminate him from our suspects pool and try to root out member #2 after drwiggl3s. As long as he is voting with us, he is a temporary ally. ##Unvote ##Vote drwiggl3s | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:35 drwiggl3s wrote:Can anyone else say something as well. I don't want to only talk to Jingle and Fulla who said wiggles - someone has to go. If you're town then sorry, but you have to realize your actions haven't shown it. You made it appear that you were, rather than considering a case which is what town would do, angling to be in good position after the lynch no matter what. That attitude has too little value for the 'weight of the case' which is what a town would be focusing on. The town doesn't have much to go on and your actions have ended up being the most similar to how mafia would act. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 08:52 JingleHell wrote: Thirteen. And careful there, Eleven happens to be one of my favorites.Either that or the scum are pulling the most obscenely overly complicated con since Oceans whatever the fuck number we're up to now. On July 20 2012 09:45 YourHarry wrote: Harry - please explain this request for someone to claim. You were trying to make a case for jingle but why would it be beneficial to the town to reveal the blue?If you are the jailkeeper (other than Jingle), please counter-claim. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Early on, tube points FOS on him. On July 17 2012 05:54 tube wrote: drwiggl3s your first post is you jumping on the (completely pointless) JingleHell mini-bandwagon against me and then going on to say that not posting content-heavily means im trying to "fit in" which i wouldnt otherwise try to do as town if thats your first and only read so far the only person i have a read on is you Accuses jingle of a scumslip. On July 17 2012 06:02 drwiggl3s wrote: Is this.. a scum slip? You should always go for mafia. Lynching someone for being bad-town is a mistake. This is a noobie game after all. Points finger to obvious.660 (Town) and also tube On July 18 2012 03:36 drwiggl3s wrote: Deadline is soon approaching and we still aren't at a consensus. Currently I think both tube and Obvious can be seen as scum. But the meta switch by tube (where he all of a sudden changed his tone, style, writing) seemed way too coached to have been his own doing. A vote against Obviousis a decent one, but I gotta go with my gut here and think tube is the more "obvious" scum player.. Unless I can pull more reasoning out of why Obvious is mafia, I'll leave my vote where it is now. ##tube Throws FOS onto obvious.660 (Town) and YourHarry. On July 18 2012 05:09 drwiggl3s wrote: But I'll throw my FOS onto Obvious and Harry right now. Seems like there's too much panicing going on in this thread. Gives me a good feeling mafia is scrambling right now. And that gives me a good feeling one of these 3 are definitely mafia. He backtracks on the obvious.660 vote to cover his ass as he knows its going to flip Town On July 18 2012 05:51 drwiggl3s wrote: Don't you think if he was really mafia.. He'd be here defending himself? is the case against him SO STRONG that he sees it as an imovable mountain that can never be overcome? If obvious was really mafia his scum buddies would be pressuring him to post. They would be defending him, or trying to push lynches even harder onto other players. The fact that he hasn't posted to defend himself, the fact that no one is strongly defending him, tells me that he's probably not mafia. Conjecture as to me or iamperfection being mafia and WIFOM On July 20 2012 03:34 drwiggl3s wrote: I'm sorry Jingle but I really missed your breadcrumb as well and I've been steadily reading this thread.. so I'm not sure even with 3 mafia members that any of them actually caught it. And if they did, I don't agree with your speculations either. Throughout D1 and N1 you and Hap were arguing 50% of the time and spamming up the thread against each others post. Not saying this because you're both mafia, but it's definitely doing mafia's job for them. This is why I think neither of you were NK'ed. As for Calgar, he was harsh pushing for iamperfection. Perhaps iamperfection is town and so mafia were happy to just let Calgar continue his case into D2? Or perhaps Calgar is the "obviously town acting" mafia scum you were talking about. Either way, Mafia killed Evul. A lurker, who was going to be replaced. Netting us literally 0 information we can use, other than WIFOM. For my reads right now, I wouldn't mind testing the waters with a Calgar lynch. Getting one of the major players out of the way and see what he flips. This could tell us a lot about iamperfection as well as others who are resistant (or soft defending) a Calgar lynch. He starts to lay the groundwork for himself to look good after a mislynch of Harry On July 21 2012 02:44 drwiggl3s wrote: So basically your saying no real information comes out of a YourHarry lynch. We're shooting for a mafia and if we miss we're back to square one? I'm just asking because I'm trying to link things together. Trying to see what we can pull out of this lynch should it be successful or not.. And I can't really see anything. I don’t think much beyond this is very useful since he’s trying to defend himself by arguing with jingle. His most coherent argument post is here: On July 21 2012 05:23 drwiggl3s wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 21 2012 04:29 JingleHell wrote: Since the beginning, drwiggl3s has lurked. Scummy. He's showed up in controversial moments to give us great pearls of wisdom. Like these. Truly food for thought. Day 1, he voted for Tube well after that dust had cleared. He visibly disassociated himself from the Obvious mislynch, which he seems to be capitalizing on now. Here, he makes a scummy statement about killing Calgar purely for the information. And now his recent posting binge. Asking great questions, like what kind of info people might be able to glean from current situations once they resolve. And generally setting things up so that no matter how Harry flips, he's in a good position. Thoughts? I'll be responding to the above case in points. 1) The "Pearls of Wisdom". Those were day 1 posts. I was trying to encourage others to talk, and to be helpful. There it's clear when I responded to Fulla's question regarding how often mafia actually get lynched day 1. The first post you quoted against tube was me trying to be constructive. Instead of calling him out for his scum slip saying that he "just felt like posting" I tried to explain why this makes him look scummy to us. And I encouraged him to share some reads with us to get more information out of him. Just because I don't post as much as you do doesn't mean I don't actively think out my posts and try to figure out what reaction I can expect from a player. So yes they are "Food for though" despite not spamming up an entire page like you need to. 2) I've already made it clear that I was tunnelling onto tube for his change of play style. I told you that I think people's reactions are a better determining factor of their alignment than their posting. I thought that tube was a better lynch due to his big change in play style once the heat was on. This over obvious who made some controversially possibly scum posts. Despite this being newbie mafia, I believe the mafia are still competent enough to not make obvious scum slips. And that it's only town (who naturally don't feel a sense of worry or guilt as much as mafia) to post more freely and make these "slips" you are even accusing me of. 3) My post on Calgar was to state I support his lynch. I however didn't follow it with a vote as their were already votes on him (I'll explain in next sentences). My reasoning for this was it was early in the day, and I wanted to see who came out of the woodwork to defend Calgar. For example, I was looking to see if a lurker came out to defend him with some off the wall case, or if someone else really tried pushing for someone else. The reason I didn't vote for him immediately was I didn't want it to seem that it was impossible to save him. If that was the case than a lurker who is mafia might not risk the exposure to save someone who is already likely to be lynched. 4) As far as "setting" stuff up goes. I wanted to make it clear that I am suspicious of you and that I was going for a Harry lynch not because I fully believe in the case against him, but because I think it'll shed light on the most active players in this game. Namely you. If he flipped town I was going to make a case on you D3 if you ended up as a "confirmed jailer" and yet STILL alive after N2. That was the point I was trying to make. I wasn't setting myself up to "look good" or trying to kill a confirmed townie. I was just saying that if you lead the lynch on a townie, you should be held at least somewhat accountable. And IF you survived N2 as a confirmed town / jailer, it'd make me VERY suspicious if that is your actual alignment. I hope this is satisfactory. But I'm up for follow up questions or anything else. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 12:42 Hopeless1der wrote: This is pretty funny considering what you then go on to post. I'll take a cookie, thanks. Do you really think something like this is suspicious when are also people in the game who aren't even bothering to read the thread? Maybe it was for them. I already asked about blocking KP at the beginning of the thread before roles were assigned so maybe that category of non-readers includes you. Why aren't you looking at reckless voting patterns instead of a single post like this when you said you were satisfied with my case like 8 posts ago?Kkkaaaaayyy. So what, you want a cookie? I know how the filter button works. What does this information give us? I'm going through the filter to see what townies I can identify and I intend on posting my reads before I go to bed. Looks like I'm going to be giving you another look when I wake up tomorrow calgar. I disagree with your dismissal of tube as a possibility. His play is too inconsistent. Does anyone even remember wiggles voting for tube? I certainly don't. It didn't attract any attention so it just got lost in the clutter. I think it was more of a planted easter egg. Also, early on tube expressed the need to 'post a lot' with 'no content' because he had no reads yet, in order to promote discussion. Where has he been lately? Why hasn't he consistently followed his stated goals? Way too suspicious to be removed from consideration just because of an off-hand vote he received. I don't like your reasoning here hopeless. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 21 2012 23:51 Hapahauli wrote: Careful, you know where this got me last time around lol So since we all seem to be on the same page about Tube, howbout a Vigi kill? It seems like a pretty solid kill if we have a vigi, and we can get a confirmed townie out of the deal (vigi roleclaim). | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 22 2012 01:56 tube wrote: I'm not sure I understand why you don't feel like playing for days at a time when you joined the game with a pledge to be an active, participating member. You're worthless to the town as an inactive member. More of a liability, in fact, because while other townies have managed to 'clear' their names with good play, you've been inactive and made a rash, suspicious D2 vote without reading. You can be indicted for that as far as I'm concerned.Relative periods of inactivity are not scumtells, they're quite frankly just times when someone doesn't feel like playing. A bandwagon on me doesn't tell the town anything because it was so easy for mafia to make me an attractive lynch, despite that the only thing I can be indicted for is inactivity. I can't speak for hopeless or fulla but you guys are going to find some difficulty making sense of things when I flip town. Also, my vote on perfection reflects my confusion as to why the suspicion on him is suddenly cleared. Wiggles was undoubtedly going to be the d2 lynch anyway. The suspicion isn't suddenly cleared. It more of on hold since better targets have come up since then. And we've learned a lot by going after those various targets while you haven't helped at all. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Sorry to see you go jingle, we'll bag the rest for ya. @confirmed townies – I consider everyone besides iamperfection, tube, fulla, and speed to be more or less ‘confirmed’ as town. This is in varying degrees, of course, considering the fact that we're going on guesses based on our reasoning. I feel reasonably confident that there is enough info to make solid assumptions here in most of the cases. @direction – It’s difficult to say where to go now because the remaining players are a mix of inactivity and suspicious activity which is helping the mafia hide. I think all four of them have been generally inactive, some moreso than others. I assessed what tiny bit of mufaa’s old filter was there and the vague feel I got based off of it was town. Going off of what little that is, I’m inclined to put him/speedbump on hold and go towards the other three for now. IGMEOY iamperfection, tube, fulla I'll kick things off with this vote since it seems to be where hopeless and hapa are leaning towards also. ##Vote iamperfection | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 22 2012 08:30 Fulla wrote: fulla - the main reason I am suspicious of you is because you have a much smaller post history. This isn't necessarily suspicious in itself, but we're getting down to the end of the game and other players have managed to clear themselves in 'the towns' eyes. This leaves me in the dark a lot more than people with 4+ pages of filter. I haven't been able to get a read on you yet. With 4 people left to clear, this means the odds for you are higher than at the start.I've been accused/questioned, so I've written a defense but no answers. So first off why am I suspicious? Tell me what you want me to answer and I can help. It would help if I wasn't ignored Also, so how many blue roles usually are there? We can pretty much assume there's no medic, is there usually 3 thou. So we might have a vigi to help? Your vote for obvious and justification for it D1 are one of the reasons. You said it would be a no-lynch if you didn't vote but I think it was already decided. It's fishy that you misrepresented the actual scenario. Leaving your vote where it was D2 also makes people a little uneasy. You've been consistent on your hopeless case but I'm inclined to read him town. He jumped onto wiggles very quickly. Your tube case, I don't really know. There are likely 3 blues in order for the game to be balanced. Whether or not that is the case, I'm not entirely sure. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
He plays roleblocker this game. Apparently mafia ran circles around the town by hanging back and just letting the players kill themselves off. I’ve included relevant QT topic quotes below: QT link here: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/DiYvZaigCZfLY + Show Spoiler + --I am at a lost at what to say --it looks like we dont have to do anything they will go after each other --i think if you push too hard on anacletus it will look suspicious hes digging his own grave let him do it we should just sit back and be more active the next day. --and prom i didnt really call you scum i just said through the text you look suscpicous while all my other posts say we cant really know who is scum on the first day --also i don't get all the complaining about the lack of activity on day 1. wtf are we supposed to talk about. --What are your thoughts on killing blindy he really hasen't done anything so we can kind of be in the same situation we are in now with them running around like their heads are cut off --jesus christ i know you want us to be more active but they are digging their own graves. --whats wifom? --I think if i just jupm on sciberbia's side it will look scummy. Im thinking of posting soemthing of the lines of agreeing with his views on intact but disagreeing with his blind rawr conclusion and voting for his other prime suspect bobthelob. Your guys thoughts? I picked these quotes to try and show a summary of his overall mindset and methodology. Right away he says he doesn’t know what to say. His mafia strategy is to hang back and let the town go after each other. This quote in our game captures this belief PERFECTLY: + Show Spoiler + On July 19 2012 04:32 iamperfection wrote: So you want me to throw out fingers of suspicon that really would serve no purpose other than to be used against me later. What purpose would fos serve the game will change in a few hours and as town the very little information we get come from the result of the night actions. Why be pigenholed now during the night. Its the same reason calgar is upset that jinglehell is trying to make a final be all decesion on who vig should kill. Also you didnt answer the question. my position on obvious was by far the worse i can do nothing to change on what i posted on day 1. Why wouldnt i just make a throwaway vote and semi bandwagon later on sombody else with less votes if i was a lurking mafia? I included a few bits of his strategy to try and get an idea of who’s behind the posts. He is noob and lazy (not taking 3 seconds to look up WIFOM) but shows some awareness of what may or may not be suspicious. I thought the mention of killing a player who hadn’t done anything to be particularly interesting since this is what happened with evul in our game. His filter from XIX: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347856&user=149300 His post count from XIX was 42 for the whole course of the game, including post-game comments. This matches his post frequency to XXI pretty closely. I felt that his intro posts were somewhat similar from XIX and XXI. + Show Spoiler + From XIX: On June 29 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote: My username hates any type of random or chaotic thinking. When we lynch someone it must be for a thought out reason. Only a logical well thought out reasoning will gain my vote. From XXI: On July 17 2012 00:42 iamperfection wrote:Our goal is to win............ I dont care if someone walks in with a t shirt with im scum plasterd on the front of it we lynch SCUM. asserting noobness + Show Spoiler + In XXI: On July 19 2012 00:08 iamperfection wrote: i dont understand the first line? GGing talking about saying good game to someone after they get killed? On July 19 2012 04:15 iamperfection wrote: If you could elaborate on what was wrong with my recent posts. Explain to me how my position on obvious and my posting style served to help me in anyway. This could potentially be a sign here. He’s trying to be less threatening and lower suspicion by showing confusion and noobness. I don't have specific posts from XIX to compare this to, but I talk more about it in my conclusion. Basically I feel that he demonstrated more skill, cognitive awareness, and grasp of strategy in the last game. He regresses here. He enters both games with an attack on another player’s logic. Convenient way to shift focus elsewhere. + Show Spoiler + In XXI: On July 17 2012 00:42 iamperfection wrote: It means i got me eye on you google is kind of usefull. Although calgar's premise is wrong. I think a mafia member is more likely to put much more thought into their posts then a non mafia member. From my 1 game of experience in which i played more of a lurker role as a mafia member the other 2 members put a ton of thought and effort into their posts. Even as going as far as having the coach review their posts before posting them to see what they thought. In XIX: On June 29 2012 11:49 iamperfection wrote: Here he tries to stall the town by discrediting any progress that could potentially be made D1.Im not understanding your logic just because some one said we should lynch someone means hes mafia? What else are we supposed to do at this point in the game we have zero information besides cryptic bantering. I dont think any value can be put into what someone says on the first day. Showing indecision: + Show Spoiler + XXI: On July 18 2012 22:50 iamperfection wrote:I also fully believe that at least one mafia member is probally talking a lot. When mafia have a good voice in town they can help steer the talk in a way that benfits them. My goal for the rest of the day is to find the mafia member that is being very active and talking a lot. If i find something i will post before the deadline. He never gets back to us, of course. XIX: On June 29 2012 22:17 iamperfection wrote: Im torn between fencer and anceltus. I dont like the way fencer tried to bandwagon onto someone elses logic. On anceltus i dont really know i think he just posts a lot and he kind of clamed up when some of the suspicion came up. Im leaning more twoards fencer but im new at this so i will wait for more of discussion before casting my vote. a promise to return to action + Show Spoiler + XIX: On June 29 2012 13:13 iamperfection wrote: and i am off to bed XXI: On July 19 2012 04:51 iamperfection wrote: ill be back later tonight On July 22 2012 02:39 iamperfection wrote: also im going to the casino for the rest of the night wish me luck. LOL. This is him giving the illusion that he cares/is going to come back to the thread and make something useful happen. As Borat would say, NAAAHTT! on tube + Show Spoiler + I happen to be damn suspicious of tube right now. But wiggles pointed fingers at him which has lead hopeless to believe that tube is town. iamperfection is also pointing fingers at tube. If perfection flips MAFIA then this gives us huge information on tube. It's extremely unlikely that two mafia would be attacking him. If we can get perfection then this goes a long way towards clearing tube in my eyes. This would leave the last mafia to be either fulla or mufaa/speedbump. As an overall summary, I find many similarities between his play in both games. In XIX his arguments appeared to be more concise and logical – it seems like he’s tried to purposely ‘dumb himself down’. He actually accuses someone else of being bad in XIX!! + Show Spoiler + On July 01 2012 05:32 iamperfection wrote: Since you asked i think you are a bad townie. XXI: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351398&user=149300 XIX: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347856&user=149300¤tpage=All swear to god, if you ask if I want a cookie for this hopeless... ! What do you guys think? @hapa On July 22 2012 09:50 Hapahauli wrote: Poop. No medic. GG Jingle, great job this game D2 started out on the wrong track, but fortunately we pulled a good lynch out of it at the end. Let's find us another scum D3. @ Calgar - I'm on the same page with you on iamperfection, but I thought you mentioned before the D2 lynch that you were reading him as townie? Why the change in attitude? I don't entirely know, to be honest. I'm having trouble parsing through these last 4 players because I think they are ALL guilty of suspicious moves and inactivity. I've been strong on iamperfection initially, and strong on him when I was under fire. When he sidled up to jingle I briefly had second thoughts. Now that I've read up on him I'm convinced again, though. It's also a factor of other people I trust also focusing him whereas others are still a question mark. hopeless's explanation of the reasons are also a decent explanation. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 23 2012 01:02 Hapahauli wrote: Maybe you're right. The point that convinced me the most was that he seemed like a better player last game - let me know what you think about that.EBWOP: I'll dive through his game filters and look for other quotes, but as it stands, his meta supports his innocence. @ SpeedBump - please elaborate your thoughts on iamperfection. I know you're catching up, but "gut feeling" isn't enough to get someone lynched. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 23 2012 02:37 Fulla wrote: Well you don't seem to be helping in that regard. Why don't you try making a case instead of bulleting like 4 points and saying you don't have time but you're just relying on your gut?It seems to have a went a bit dead... @Iamperfection - who do you think is/are scum? What are your thoughts? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 17 2012 07:38 tube wrote: Anyone else find his offhand mention of him potentially being a blue as suspicious? I don't think town would try and hint at having a role, or even mention it.It's going in circles because all of you said the same thing over and over without explaining, which led me to say the same thing over and over until obvious.660 made this post: actually giving me a reason to do things differently. However, to respond to you, Obvious, isn't it obvious that nobody knows anything yet. Even if I had a role I haven't gotten to use it so I can't say anything quite for sure. My strongest opinion is that people who have very few to no posts should be the ones under heaviest suspicion. On July 17 2012 05:39 tube wrote: You're being an active lurker again. Garbage one-liners certainly aren't helping your case.the points against me are that im being an active lurker and thats supposedly our best lynch how am i supposed to respond to that other than "i just felt like posting" because i didnt want to be inactive from my point of view im not attracting suspicion to begin with | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 23 2012 05:19 iamperfection wrote: As far as I'm concerned you piled your vote onto YourHarry and doubted jingle's motives until well after he claimed JK with the crumb... How does that constitute a 'perfect read' - it had to be spelled out for you. You were pretty far from the truth in both cases.Did i play the best no (even though the perfect one made 2 perfect reads on jingle and yourharry before anyone else) but im gonna at least im gonna go down swinging. If your town join in the conversation even if you dont agree with the other people are saying. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 23 2012 05:32 iamperfection wrote: Thanks, I gathered as much. You may be on to something, though.You do realize the perfect gimmick is kind of my "thing" right. ##Unvote ##Vote tube | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 23 2012 22:19 tube wrote: You're going to need to do a much better job of that to avoid being lynched today. Several people have leveled several accusations and continuing to gloss over them is essentially you putting the noose around your own neck.I didn't jump on the obvious bandwagon I saw reasons of my own to vote him and I think I was the second vote on him. Wiggles was definitely going to die that day so I voted perfection to show that I still thought of him as scum. "honestly mafia is laughing at you" wasn't at wiggles read the context again | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
He starts off with a short “welcome everyone” then goes quiet for over a day. This doesn’t say much in itself but I feel like mafia in the QT would have said something like “don’t lurk guys”. Small edge towards town. He comes back in and says he’s noob but has been reading and keeping up. On July 18 2012 05:49 Fulla wrote: Next day he comes in and sort of defends tube. He explains that tube’s attitude is overly eager and says the 1 liners are not necessarily suspicious. He then posts what could be interpreted as a wishy-washy convoluted analysis about whether or not we’ll gain any knowledge from his flip. No strong commitment. But it is consistent with his earlier stance. This post is slightly suspect o me because he says a lot without really saying anything. What are his reads, what’s his action plan? Sounds like he’s just undecided.I'm back for a few hours now, until deadline so I'll try to respond to everything. Tube I don't think he's suspicious simply for posting 1 liners, it just comes across as an eager noob trying to play the game to me. When challenged and asked to stop tube he responded and tried to improve. I think it comes down to 2 things: - What are the realistic chances of him flipping scum? - Should he flip town, do we atleast learn anything, such as accuser X/Y are 100% scum then. So we get them after. or the blues know who to check. This is why I asked my question as whether statistically over eager/excited 1liner posters in the first 24 hours, do they usually flip scum? If like 90% never do, I'd lean strongly to not lynching him. I atleast thought this was a relevant question. Next up Obvious.. Next he defends obvious initially, but then casts his vote on him nevertheless when obvious disappears. I guess this can be justified considering the fact that obvious disappeared making him more suspicious. He says Harry was a town read but his bad posts made him doubt himself. He then agrees that Harry is town. Seems like decent enough reasoning to me. On July 19 2012 23:39 Fulla wrote: He has a mafia read on hopeless which I’m not sure what to think about. He’s consistent on him, at least. His case is quoted above. I actually had to look that up on google. So he votes me, I get angry and react voting him back? The point was: - He didn't contribute to other suspicions/discussions. - Kept on and on about how inactive I am. (other inactive players what about them?) Why so over the top? - Seems he REALLY wanted me in the spotlight with suspicion. - Still managed to come in and make sure obvious was lynched. - But try to stay out of it with me and his target. Is that not dodgy? I think I’m leaning town in my read. From what he’s posted, his strategy and tone seem to be consistent. His readings on tube and Harry appear reasonable and supported based on their actions in context. I personally agree with his Harry reads. I’ll ask you though, fulla, why/how did you read Harry as town initially? He had very few posts until the kill obvious one-liners which is what made you go back on your initial read. This is the biggest criticism I can come up with for your play. I’m very satisfied with our choice to lynch tube. I think going on the posting behavior and actions this is our best call. 48 hours ago we were going at each other pretty hard so I think it would have been tempting to lurk more heavily, which could explain tube’s posting. Hopefully we bag another one of the suckers. If tube flips mafia then you’ve got some explaining to do, hopeless. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 24 2012 03:37 tube wrote: The way you've played would suggest otherwise.eh you guys are making a mistake lol | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 24 2012 07:02 Fulla wrote: Hapa has already explained why. Respond to my question, please.Not even trying to defend? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 24 2012 09:44 ghost_403 wrote: @Town: Pay close attention to people who are trying to (a) convince you they are somehow "confirmed town" and (b) make long posts without contributing. These are what the scum try to spend their time doing. A good town player will spend their time trying to find scum. Scum will try to spend their time convincing you that they're spending their time trying to find scum. Learn the difference and punish people who do the latter. With this idea in mind, I looked at who is positioning to look best after a mislynch. Positioning for after the mislynch will let them remind us how they are somehow “confirmed town”. They got their read right, so must be on our side. Since tube flipped town, mafia will try to position well for the mislynch. So I’m thinking – who of the 7 of us left voted and positioned to look best after the result? Only one person made any effort to justify their standing after the lynch. Yes, you hopeless. On July 23 2012 06:35 Hopeless1der wrote: Think about this quote very carefully. What is he actually saying here? I’ve put in numbers and translated this post.I was reading him as town, and you as scum. Even after reading your case I thought so, as I feel you're pressed into a corner and have nothing else to push for except for tube's lynch. Having read his post, the fact that he doesn't seem to take this very seriously is very suspicious and drives me to want to vote for him instead of you. I'm not ready to swap my vote over completely, but I am prepared to ##Unvote This is looking like its going to be "too easy" to get tube voted. I'm pretty much the only one who ever gave him a town read to begin with.1 Seeing his posting regress to his initial garbage version makes we want to get rid of him as he was thoroughly berated for his style of posting and doesnt seem to give a damn. However, that in itself doesn't seem that scummy to me because it shows he's distinctly NOT trying, which sucks for town but doesn't prove his affiliation to me. I don't want to be lynching someone for being bad-town on D3.2 If he doesn't provide anything useful my hands are probably going to be tied as perfection has at least tried to make himself useful to town. Tube has not.3 1-I think he’ll flip town. I’m the only one that thinks he’s town. 2-Here’s why you guys suspect him; here’s why I don’t. 3-I’m going to vote for him anyways. Why is he reminding us that he is the only one who thinks he's town, when he's voting for him anyways? He gives reasoning why his opinion has decayed over time but neverthless he's trying to assert that he thinks tube is town. This is irrelevant because he is going to be killed anyways. The only thing your read could effect is our idea of you as a player afterwards. Another point in the filter that demonstrates the same concept. While I was hoping that obvious was mafia, hopeless is trying to actively assert his innocence. I don’t think he’s in a necessarily suspicious position. He made his vote early and stuck on it and his vote wouldn’t have mattered. If he were town, he could have said something like “I had my read and I stuck to my guns… it was decided without me either way. I’m trying to pressure him to talk” I don’t think this would have been suspicious – he would be justified here in my opinion. What irks me is the fact that he brings it up. He is actively worried about what others are thinking of him, moreso than actually finding mafia. I think he is trying to confirm himself town, rather than actually hunt. If it wasn’t suspicious, then why is he trying to make himself even less suspicious when he wasn’t in the first place? On July 18 2012 07:40 Hopeless1der wrote: So, am I going to get chewed out for not changing my vote? If I do, its a last minute bandwagon, and if I don't its because I Obviously (teehee) "knew" he was town. Unless someone unvotes Obvious.660, there is no way to alter the vote at this point because he got to 6 votes first. On July 18 2012 07:51 Hopeless1der wrote: If he flips scum, I still look bad because I've said he looked scummy, but didn't put my vote on him. I made that post to demonstrate the fact that I think I'm screwed no matter what I do at this point. On July 18 2012 07:58 Hopeless1der wrote: I'm preemptively pointing out the fact that I'm going to look scummy regardless of what I do, before someone can turn it into a case and run with it. Perhaps I should have just stayed quiet, but I've already said I'd be around at the deadline and I can see this turning out poorly for me. I'm trying to make my situation as transparent as possible to prevent people from considering I'm scum because of my voting pattern. He’s going to try and talk and squirm his way out but the actions can’t be taken back. Is his attitude focused on hunting or is it focused on asserting his innocence? I think it’s the latter. Why have we considered him town until now? One of the reasons I don’t agree with is that he (stupidly, if town) reminded us that there is no medic. I think that this move is bad for both town and mafia, though, and therefore not evidence of town. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 24 2012 15:42 YourHarry wrote: No point, nothing to gain. Everyone will claim VT regardless.And either way, we should think about start claiming beginning of tomorrow. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
By saying people shouldn't claim? Don't follow you here. If someone wants to claim then they will if they think its the right time, that's their choice to make. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Since it's 4-2 its MYLO not LYLO. No lynch is clearly the best move right now. Mafia mislynch is game over. We are improving our chance for a lynch the next day and also giving DT another night to check. I figure there's no med, probably no vigi since no kill to date, and I guess there could be another vet but I think it's more likely DT. I don't think DT should claim. I've been trying to say that I don't think claiming is good here. We should get one more night of a potential DT check before doing a mass claim. I find it odd that you guys are voting on MYLO. ##Vote nolynch | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 25 2012 18:01 YourHarry wrote: Would you clarify this? The vote would just pile up until the end of the 48 hour period right, giving them time to switch away?Wait, never mind. Calgar could still be the scum, but town calgar means either hopeless1 or iamperfection (or both) MUST be scums. This is because, if both hopeless1 and iamperfection are town voting for calgar, the scums would have already mislynched calgar. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
I’ve rethought what I think about hopeless and him calling out that there was no doctor. Jingle knew there might not be a doctor but he tried to stay alive by ‘requesting’ it nevertheless. Hopeless points out that there probably isn’t one. Jingle is mad because hopeless has just killed whatever small chance jingle had of living to the next day. I think mafia wouldn’t have wanted jingle to be warned so explicitly. Maybe he still had some hope left and might not have done anything productive at night. I’ll stop here because it descends into even more WIFOM but I think hopeless is town because of this. Now, town should 100% no lynch. Whoever mafia hits, even Harry who we have strong feelings about, the field will be narrower and there is one less person to hide behind. Town will have a good chance at getting mafia lynched and that will bring it to 3-1, still very winnable. Mafia wants to lynch today and for people to get overzealous and go for their reads prematurely. Town needs to play logically here. Logic says no lynch is the best call statistically. My case now is against our replacement. Whatever you think about me, I think there is a better case for him. I think the burden is on the replacer to clear their name with aggressive posting and reads. I think if he were town he would have tried much harder to do so. Wouldn’t you if you had replaced in? This isn’t someone like tube who signed up and then gave up. He signed up as a replacement and then accepted it. I think he should care more considering he joined recently. He should have been posting much more, except for the fact that he hasn’t needed to since lurking would have almost won with people lynching on MYLO. He left us dangling with a promise to return. iamperfection is on the right track for calling him out. It’s interesting that mafia didn’t kill harry OR Speedbump-- not shooting Harry was a gamble, since he’s confirmed townie, to try and get a mislynch. Speedbump, though, as a replacement, traditionally gets the ‘benefit of the doubt’ and wouldn’t be lynched at LYLO. Mafia has definitely thought of this! viscera would have thought of it, and they are probably aware of it from guides also. Replacement townies are a huge liability for the mafia-- speedbump being alive should be very suspicious + everything else added on. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
So, no fulla case then huh. You said it would come in 2-3 hours. Then the next day you say it’s not there but still coming that night. Then you come back after 2 days. You could have posted from your phone. So that makes no case still. You’re on your phone, you woke up late, your internet went down while making your case. That’s convenient. NK happens to be on the guy you promised your case on, also convenient. Convenient that you can still be unaccountable. Sounds like you’ve got lots of excuses but haven’t managed to push any original analysis. You sheep FOS onto iamperfection, sheep vote onto tube, and sheep FOS onto me. Baaah. Where are your thoughts? Where are your cases? How have you contributed to town at all, even once? The mafia targeting is partially WIFOM. The simplest shot would still have been to shoot YourHarry or you. Why didn’t they take the simplest? Bolded the flaw? Lol you bolded the entire thing. I’m suspicious of you because you are acting suspicious. Where is the ‘flaw’ in that reasoning? Maybe you should bold this entire response too. On July 26 2012 09:55 Speedbump wrote: Hmm. I guess I could just stop posting and try to help the town like you have. No onus? Did you conveniently forget the part where you disappeared for 48 hours? That means you do in fact have a burden, especially this late in the game. Honestly, what is town supposed to expect when you stop playing for that long? Why did you agree to replace if you were going to post that little? I have one explanation.To answer your flawed analysis there; unless the player pre-replacement plays exceptionally poorly, I don't think that the replacement has any onus of burden to defend himself overzealously, like you're implying. In fact, overzealous play causes more problems for town, with potential mislynches. On July 26 2012 09:55 Speedbump wrote: Have you got any contributions to make to town or are you going to purely sheep the rest of the game?But then, when one is reckless and grasping at straws the whole game, it would be easier to make more brash and reckless assumptions to mislynch and win. Have you got anything substantial to go on, or is this all purely WIFOM? FoS calgar | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
You’ve got a lot of excuses; we’ve established that and can move on for now. It looks like you’ve done a rash job of rehashing my posts. On July 26 2012 14:09 Speedbump wrote: Day 1, you spend all your time flip-flopping your vote between iamperfection who you had constantly railed and backflipped to the whole day and YourHarry. (who you only decided to vote for after Hapahauli made his case) This was done in a manner of a person who doesn't care which person is lynched, which is heavily anti-town. You’ve oversimplified the situation here without understanding the reasoning. Why didn’t you mention the most important part of day 1 - trying to avoid mislynching obvious? That was why I changed my vote. I already explained that entirely to jingle in two extremely long posts. I cared about trying to get obvious off the lynching blocks – he didn’t help himself by giving up and disappearing. Day 2, more time spent flip-flopping between YourHarry and imperfection. This time, you spend a slight amount of time on Fulla's inactivity, while still heavily railing YourHarry and iamperfection. Afterwards, you continue your tunneling of iamperfection. You tthen decided to sheep drwiggl3s, while still tunneling YourHarry, only voting for drwiggl3s once he had 4 votes on him. Fulla was lurking and needed to be pressured, why is this noteworthy? Tunneling iamperfection while focusing on others? That’s not what the word means; you’ve repeatedly misused it. You’re misusing sheep also which makes reading this annoying. Everyone was on iamperfection for very suspicious posting behavior. He has admitted that himself. Yeah I had a case on harry, so did hapa. We backed off when he was confirmed. What’s your point here? I’ve tried to be aggressive and make cases, yes. Have I done a good job? No, considering 2 are left I’d say none of town has. Day 3, yet more time spent tunneling iamperfection, only deciding to follow iamperfection in voting tube, after Hapahauli and Hopeless1der had already weighed in their suspicions of tube. This sudden flip-flop on your aggression towards iamperfection looks very suspicious, considering a mislynch in that scenario leads to MYLO the next day. Everyone agreed that tube was suspicious. He gave up and quit so he’s the only one to blame here. Iamperfection has also been suspicious and suspected all game. What’s your point here? You’re rehashing reads that I’ve made when you haven’t made one all game. Or is this all a matter of convenience that you choose to overlook in pushing a more convenient 'case' against me? You've heavily sheeped iamperfection and YourHarry from the beginning I’d think I’d be more guilty of sheeping jingle and hapa this game then these two… ?? only changing your mind when someone else does makes an analysis that you conveniently borrow I’ve posted my fair amount of original analysis. Something that you have yet to do, as I’ve noted. I find it very suspicious that you mention mafia coaching, and it is weird you conveniently overlooked this part when quoting my response to you. I guess you slipped when trying to make a case against me. You’ve entirely missed this point so I’ll say it again. Replacement town is a liability for mafia because as a general game trend the replacement is given BOTD. The mafia coach is certainly aware of this (which is why I mention it) which would mean you would be a very attractive target for mafia to hit. WIFOM or not, they passed up the top 2 targets, of which you are one. the only onus I have is to help town in whichever way I can do so. How have you contributed to the town?On July 26 2012 18:20 YourHarry wrote: I've posted a whole lot on this, Harry. It's all through my filter, how have you missed it? That whole temporary solution thing if he sheeped jingle? Calgar's busses iamperfection early, but never follows through with it. I may have missed why calgar suddenly changed his view on iamperfection though. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:01 iamperfection wrote: Well, I've written what I've written so nothing I can do about it now. I didn't mean for it to be intended that way and switched my vote fast enough to convince jingle of my innocence.Its funny that you would make fun of me saying that my read had to be spelled out for me when we look back it seems it wasen't so obvious at the time for you. Why is that Mr. Calgar? This as other pointed out is a scum slip in my eyes. the first post is the most daming evidence against you and i will be very reluctant following any type of case you put forth. Calgar is scum and my eyes and we should lynch him and move forward from there. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 28 2012 10:20 Hopeless1der wrote: Assuming there is leniency due to being a noobie game and all, we're in LYLO today. Claim any roles as soon as possible with any reads you might have based on your claim (or regular reads for that matter). I honestly don't think there is a blue left because there should have been a last minute night post getting everything onto the table just before dieing. I still think calgar is scum. ##Vote Calgar Hopeless - 2/5 left are mafia. I am town. Does Harry's read as town not mean anything to you? What about jingle's read? If you really believe I'm the best vote then I can't do anything. I can't blame you for voting as you do. You sheeped jingle before in support of my innocence. Despite my inconsistent play, I'd like to encourage you to vote with me one more time. Humor me - what if I were town? Certainly mafia would leave me alive, right? I'm an automatic mislynch because of all the suspicion on me. Are you really sure there are no blues left? I think there's one more. Look at past games - I doubt there have ever been only two. This is all WIFOM, but if no one had a strong read on me, why would I go posting my bullshit cases on several people? I think this shows the motive of desperate townie more than mafia. I'm going to ##Vote speedbump. I would encourage you to join me for the sake of town. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 28 2012 11:18 Hapahauli wrote: I have my doubts as to whether or not it will matter but I'll make an in-depth reply tomorrow morning.Calgar, all I ask is for you to defend yourself. There is plenty to suggest mafia-motive in your voting pattern, and time and time again you refuse to directly address the evidence against you. ##Vote Calgar | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
Back atcha + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 10:20 Hopeless1der wrote: I'll kindly remind you that you've broken the rules asking this question.Is each day/night cycle considered one cycle or are we required to post at least once between any given Day and Night (Or Night and Day post)? Depending on the answer, it is possible that both speedbump and calgar should be modkilled. On July 09 2012 07:40 Probulous wrote: Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game. Roles + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 12:12 Hopeless1der wrote: I guess you and hapa are right, here. I just thought 3 blues was the standard amount to try and balance the game. A game could just as easily have no blues, or 3 godfathers vs a medic. As much as they might help, I'm going to play as though there are no further blues. YourHarry's 'defence' of calgar is somehow related to the fact that Jingle (confirmed town) targeted calgar with his rb and calgar did not receive a roleblock pm. YourHarry considered the mod's "profuse apologizing" to be indicative of calgar being town. I fail to see how any of that proves calgar's alliance and I'm effectively disregarding it altogether. I think it does show me as town, though. At this point jingle is essentially ‘confirmed town’ and had most of the towns support. When I was asked if I were roleblocked, the easiest answer would have been to say yes. By saying I didn’t, I directly contradicted everything jingle had said and claimed. He claimed jailor, he claimed he jailed me, according to the rules, I should have been notified. Why would I challenge him like that if I were mafia? I posted honestly, instead, contradicting him. The mod came in and conveniently explained everything so that jingle was once again essentially confirmed, and me essentially confirmed as having no active role due to the lack of notification. I couldn’t have known that the mod was going to post the explanation though. As far as I was concerned, it could have turned into a huge “me vs. jingle who is lying about the roleblock” debate. I had less town cred so I would have lost that, guaranteed. YourHarry's read + Show Spoiler + The other thing that YourHarry noted was the fact that he was going to try to lynch calgar and that leaving him alive would be a good way to promote a mislynch if calgar was town. That is a very WIFOM-y argument. Quite frankly, I have no faith in YourHarry's read because at LYLO, confirmed townies are the biggest threat to scum. He was target #1 and the fact that he somehow thought he was going to live makes me want to completely ignore his last couple posts. Just because he thought there was a chance he might not be killed doesn’t mean his analysis and reads are completely wrong. They passed up killing the ‘confirmed town’ once before, which made no sense last time, so just based off of that there was some chance. Hapa + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 11:25 Hapahauli wrote: Let me know if things are clearer or not after me and hopeless explanations.Can you explain Harry's read to me? I honestly have no idea why that makes you town, nor do I even understand it. On July 28 2012 11:18 Hapahauli wrote: Of our lynches, who has defended themselves more, town or mafia? Mafia much more, by far. Whether someone bothers to address evidence has had no correlation on guilt.There is plenty to suggest mafia-motive in your voting pattern, and time and time again you refuse to directly address the evidence against you. I’ve already thoroughly addressed day 1 accusations + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 07:19 calgar wrote: The so called breadcrumb + Show Spoiler + Does it really make sense to you that I would know he's an active townie and a JK and not shoot him? He’s going to point the case at me either way so why would I hold off on killing him? There’s going to be pressure on me either way. Would you pass up on that kill as mafia? I wouldn’t think so - I think evul was a poor choice of hit. He was suspicious to me for lurking and that cleared the town to go after better targets. I thought the breadcrumb was damn obvious but didn’t mention it (at first, until he started attacking me) because I wasn’t sure if other people would see it. Did you guys really not see it? I actually breadcrumbed "JK" for jailkeeper back at him because I thought he was secretly telling me he was JK at first. Then I thought he was asking the jailer to jail me but it didn’t make sense to not just ask straight out. I thought I was clearly reading town at this point so his attack blindsided me. I then thought he might be trying to bait out an attack by YourHarry and then turn back on him before I finally realized. Why I think he's after me + Show Spoiler + Think about who jingle is. He's clearly a townie, and he clearly gets STUCK on an idea, and can't ever be convinced. He’s playing emotionally rather than logically. You can't argue with a bull. He points WIFOM at me and dismisses anything I say and “won’t stoop down your level Calgar”. Here’s my case: + Show Spoiler + Let’s go back to iamperfection who I called out very early. I brought his case up before anyone else, as a matter of fact. If it’s such an obvious case then why was I the first to bring it up? I’d also like to remind you that a confirmed townie was suspicious of him. This is one of the reasons I thought obvious was innocent. Do me a favor and re-read my initial argument: On July 17 2012 06:24 calgar wrote: Two – Nice of you to grace us with a single post, iamperfection. I feel like this may have been somewhat buried so I’d like to bring it back to people’s attention. I want to call to attention poor logic and assumptions.Your logic: Hmm, so my premise about his anti-town behavior is wrong, based on your limited observations of being mafia last game? What?! First, that’s a terrible sample size. Second, it’s fallacious to assume that anything in your previous games has any relevance on how people will act in this one. Poor logic and mafia-like. What relevance does your specific last game have at all to our situation here? It looks like you just scanned my post quickly and attacked it as “trying to shift suspicion”. Did you even read it or consider what I meant? It seems like many others agree with me about his anti-town behavior. It seems you’re defending anti-town behavior of tube here. Why are you suggesting that I have some grand strategy of people to lynch? It looks to me like I made one very specific post about a single player. Yet I have plans of setting up a lynching policy to "confuse the town". Putting words into my mouth - very suspicious. Your post strikes me as if you were mafia and were planning how to enter the game late. You decided to jump onto someone’s reasoning bandwagon to try and avoid attention. Why do I say this? You make no effort in original thought. To me it looks like you scanned the thread, looked at who had been attacked, and said “Oh yeah I agree, FOS on the same two guys as jingle”. I think my case is straightforward and makes sense. Iamperfection has a habit of just jumping onto other people’s suspicions. It’s clear that he’s not even bothering to read the thread. He says neither I nor hapa have made arguments as a reason for us to be suspicious. We both, in fact, do. It’s like he’s playing a different game or all the arguments and evidence is just flying over his head. He then backs off of me after I vote him to avoid a confrontation. Now he’s back at it, tagging onto me with no reasoning. Look at this quote: On July 20 2012 01:24 iamperfection wrote: He bandwagons with jingle again. His second and third sentences are logically disconnected. What does the issue of whether or not mafia picked up on the breadcrumb have to do with how risky it is for jingle to lie? His play is so careless. It's fact that I've challenged people in the thread to talk more. iamperfection has never done this. Why does it seem that I am the only one that feels strongly about this?Jingles claim looks legitamate to me. I'm not buying any crap that jingle should be dead because he bread crumbed. It would be so risky for jingle to lie and hell this is newbie mafia i didnt spot the bread crumb and im sure a lot of players didnt spot it. I think perf is very likely mafia. Even if you think I'm a bit suspicious, I knew jingle was JK so you're saying that mafia knew of the JK and didn't shoot. Why would mafia ever pass up such an easy blue? It looks like the mafia may have missed the breadcrumb. iamperfection missed it and I think he’s mafia. Is this not plausible? Lynch him first – you can always come back to me with more information. My thoughts in regards to calling the ‘vigi hit’ from when I was in the moment. This is the best explanation I can give for my reasoning. + Show Spoiler + I've suggested a vig hit as a means to try and pressure iamperfection to talk. Trying to light a fire was my only intention with the post, I haven't actually considered whether or not it is wise to do yet. Here are my thoughts: It is 8:3 right now and probably 7:3 after night kill. Scenario A: he is mafia No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting him. He dies – mafia is revealed. 7:2 going into night. Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip mafia and glean what we can from that. We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 7:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 7:1 or 6:2 into night. Scenario B: he is confused townie No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting for him. He dies – town is revealed. 6:3 going into night. Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 6:1 or 5:2 into night. Is it a rash call to make the hit? He's one of the impossible-to-tell ones with weak reads, low post count, ignores questions. I think it's basically a big gamble. We mis-lynched which I tried to argue against so this can put us ahead again, or even more behind if he ends up town. I'd want to vote for him anyways, though, for tomorrow during day lynch, so I figure if we are guaranteed to try him then might as well flip him now because if we're wrong about him we're wrong. For wavering + Show Spoiler + I’m trying to show you through my actions that I have pro-town goals. It’s disheartening to be in this position after becoming emotionally invested in the game - that is my explanation for wavering today. I thought about doing what obvious did and I understand why he just walked away. It's incredibly frustrating to be attacked when I'm trying to help the town make progress by encouraging discussion. In regards to asserting my noob and using "wait and see". + Show Spoiler + On July 16 2012 10:07 calgar wrote:You make a very interesting inference there, hapa. You infer that my lack of mafia history on TL equates to newbieness. I have in fact played many games of Mafia before and am not a newb. I don’t plan to use newbieness as any kind of excuse for my actions. I clarify to hapa that I am not a newb and am not planning on using it as an excuse. It doesn't make sense for me to hint at being newb and then directly assert the opposite and that I don't plan on using that excuse in my response. The “wait and see” comment doesn’t mean a thing. Obvious was lynched for similar reasons. That is proof that taking comments out of context is no measure of mafia. My defense for that portion of the conversation, rather than was is paraphrased and put into my mouth, is that I am town because I am making an effort to talk. It would have been very easy for me to disappear after showing up briefly, responding to hapa’s attack, satisfying him with a good answer, and then lurking much more like several other players in the thread have. jingle sums this up with "you're just talking, not doing anything productive". What is my next post, in tacit response to this? I call tube out and eventually get him to become a more active poster. My voting + Show Spoiler + My goal in voting D1 was to try and lynch someone else besides obvious.660 since I read him as town. I swung between people I thought were good targets to try and sway the vote away. On July 20 2012 01:45 JingleHell wrote: There's so much excessive exaggeration here that it blows my stance out of proportion. I "jumped on the tube wagon" to pressure him into talking more. It worked - and guess what, I read him town and backed off. I me-too on hapa because I read him strongly town. I tried to work with him to lobby votes to save obvious.660. 2: Second part of day 1: He jumps on the tube wagon, shifts votes everywhere, and "me-too"s onto myself and Hapa incessantly. Calls for votes on perfection, but doesn't vote for perfection himself until Hapa does. He has his vote on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest scum read quite often. This is false. I was the first person to vote for iamperfection. My strongest read is iamperfection and 2/3 of my votes were for him. How is this "on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest read on"? I changed to YourHarry in an effort to swing momentum over to him to save obvious. I swung it back to my original target after harry defended accusations and I thought the case was stronger on iamperfection once again.and + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 08:34 calgar wrote: The last one took me over an hour, here we go again. I’ve responded a little out of order but everything is there. If you can just explain + Show Spoiler + So, if you can just explain the scummy behavior in your responses to me, and finish with the shortcomings I've already outlined, I'll move on to someone else happily. Well, I’ll explain honestly. The interpretation is up to you. When you dismissed my last night’s post and said you wouldn’t stoop to my level you made me feel powerless. I didn’t understand what you expected from hypothetical townie calgar and thought you had robbed me of my voice. I read you as town but I couldn’t completely stop emotion from getting into my posts. I said in my previous post, for better or worse and however silly, that I’ve become emotionally invested. I’m posting today after encouragement in a different state of mind. I said it blindsided me – this added more to the emotion. If you sense a different player from yesterday to today – this is why. Ad homs and emotion + Show Spoiler + You're still using ad homs and invoking emotion as a response to me. You've started to sort of mention the things I brought up, but not properly. You're accusing me of taking you out of context, yet I'm not. I'm taking you in context of the thread as a whole, at the times of posts. I feel that your overall tone in posting is overly aggressive, condescending, and you have offended me outside the game. I wasn’t kidding about considering giving up and walking away like obvious did - perhaps my skin is too thin. I'll drop that, there's nothing really to discuss about it. That is part of the reason for my tone in response. Because you show signs of a cooler tone and logic I will reply again. As I already explained in my previous post, I have let frustration leak into my posting. That is another reason for the tone.Just for giggles + Show Spoiler + You know what, just for giggles, I'll even give benefit of the doubt on the vigi hit thing, since the numbers at least seem like a reasonable assessment, and it comes down to a gut feeling on whether it's just too damn easy of a target. The breadcrumb and hapa thing, of course, is purely circumstantial and WIFOM, and only applicable if you flip scum, so it doesn't need to be part of your defense, really. Alright, we’ll drop these two. WIFOM + Show Spoiler + Let's face it. You spend more time in your response here asserting that "Since I'm town - WIFOM". That's not an explanation for scummy behavior, that's asserting that people should trust you because you say so. Didn’t you say something along the lines of all arguments can be boiled down to WIFOM? What do we really have as hard evidence as town? We know two flips are certainly town – one produced no information and the other produced some. That’s not much objective information to go off of. Everything else is subjective – how else can I defend myself? I feel like I have acted in a pro-town manner, though. Regardless of what my role is, there is that behavior that is helpful to one side that can be analyzed.You didn't exactly make the post saying you'd been in multiple games elsewhere until Hapa called you out on subtly playing the noob card. A reaction doesn't change the post itself. I think this goes along with the WIFOM. It is what it is; you interpret it how you will. Whatever I say will be WIFOM about it.My voting continued + Show Spoiler + Your original vote on perfection has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you then jumped from one "strong read" to another, with your votes frequently being directly contradictory to your "strongest read", up until you got Hapa to shift a vote, at which point you finally voted for perfection. I felt good about my original vote. Then no one else added on and the votes went up to 4 or 5 (don’t care to sort out the exact timing) vs. just 2. The activity seemed poor to me so I didn’t give the case my all. The logic: YourHarry had 2 votes with me and iamperfection had one. If I switched to iamperfection before I knew that hapa would then it would still be at 2 votes – this doesn’t serve my stated purpose. When hapa responded several minutes later and switched it was then beneficial to switch because it made the count go up to 3 votes. There was a chance hapa might have said “no, I’m sticking with harry”. Switching wouldn’t have mattered then because each had one vote without my support. On obvious.660 + Show Spoiler + You keep pointing fingers back to Obvious to make my case against you look weaker, but you're ignoring that the case against him was a result of his own actions. Was I a major factor in the case? Yes. Do I regret the needless loss of a town vote? Absolutely. Does that make it my fault that he appeared scummy? No. His posts were his downfall, not mine. Your posts are what have me breathing down your neck, and even while putting up this facade of a response, you continue in your need for personal attacks. My only point is that I considered myself aligned with obvious and that we have played similar games. He agreed on my suspicion of iamperfection. Yes it was a result of his inactions and then failure to defend. I’m not sure what your issue is here. I think it’s that I’m giving you a hard time for his death because we disagreed on the read. Is that the case? I can try to respond more if I’m on the right track. If not could you clarify?Hell, the Obvious case, IIRC, you said you saw where I was coming from, but didn't draw the same conclusions. That's a far cry from how you're treating it now, trying to weaponize it against me. Credible job + Show Spoiler + Overall, you're starting to do a credible job of explaining yourself. I can at least accept your explanation for most of the "me-too" attitude, although I do find it foolish to have a strong town read that early in D1. I'm not exactly at the point of no return here, I just want answers, which you've withheld, while acting like it would be some sort of waste to respond, even when it's anything but. If I can stop arguing with Hapa outside of case arguments, surely you'd be able to believe I'd be able to back off on a case I'm actually persuaded is bad. Glad you think so. All I have to go off of is reads – my style is to play a little more trusting then you. It’s risky but I like to think I have allies that I’m working with rather than trusting absolutely no one. As to the “waste to respond” attitude, see my sappy earlier bits about wavering and my last post. My breadcrumb in response to jingle + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 07:50 Hopeless1der wrote: Cant respond in detail yet, but Calgar, where is the breadcrumbed 'JK' you referred to? It’s in the silly bit about reckless animals. Two capitalized letters and the rest is lower case. If you’ll notice I always capitalize, and reverted to my normal writing style immediately after the “secret message” paragraph that started the post. Math + Show Spoiler + On July 20 2012 08:03 JingleHell wrote: You’re right, I was riled up and accidentally typoed there. It got a little confusing bouncing back between the scenarios.Wait, actually, the numbers on the vigi kill are both from the perspective of him being scum. You say if he flipped town, I can assume that's a brain fart, but it would be 6:3 going into today, had vigi hit him and he was town. I still kinda see the reasoning, but based off of too little evidence like I said. The crumb revisited + Show Spoiler + While we’re on jingle, have you guys forgotten about the breadcrumbing bit? Mafia killed jingle a day late but should have done so immediately if they picked up on the crumb. No reason to pass someone up who so blatantly claims blue. I saw the breadcrumb right away, why didn’t he die that night? Why did I bother to breadcrumb back? I think mafia missed the crumb which gave him another day. Did I plant that to refer back to once I was under fire as mafia or did I try to communicate with him as town? Obvious.660 read me as town. So did jingle. Apparently YourHarry did too. You’re voting against all of their reads, as confirmed town. Doesn’t sound smart to me. iamperfection + Show Spoiler + I’ve already explained my thoughts on iamperfection. If he flips mafia then I guess I’m the fool for falling for his antics. I’ve seen the other people playing poorly this game flip town. I changed my mind before I had to see him flip this time. On July 21 2012 04:54 calgar wrote: I also want to propose a temporary solution to iamperfection. I may have been reading his actions on the wrong side of the coin. I’ve said in my previous posts that it boiled down to whether he was mafia or confused townie. At the time we didn’t have anything better to go off of so I considered it to be our best vote in order to maximize the % of killing mafia. What he’s said recently in his vote on YourHarry made me change my mind. His defense of YourHarry shows his reluctance to put the vote there, so he shouldn’t have any trouble changing to match with jingle again. Well, this didn’t work very well considering jingle died. What it boils down to.. + Show Spoiler + On July 26 2012 14:09 Speedbump wrote: I was pressuring fulla to talk more, like I did with iamperfection in day 3. A worthy cause for town. Day 2, more time spent flip-flopping between YourHarry and imperfection. This time, you spend a slight amount of time on Fulla's inactivity, while still heavily railing YourHarry and iamperfection. Afterwards, you continue your tunneling of iamperfection. You then decided to sheep drwiggl3s, while still tunneling YourHarry, only voting for drwiggl3s once he had 4 votes on him. YourHarry was very suspicious for a period. Why would a town ever post all of those garbage one liners in all caps? It was poor play – lots of things that he deserved to be pressured for. I made a case for him, so did hapa. Jingle thought he was guilty. He also had suspicions against jingle and i when everyone and their mother read jingle as town. Town would have lynched him if wiggles hadn’t revealed himself. What I’m trying to say is that my stance was reasonable and logical for a suspicious townie, and was shared by others. The post about wiggles looks bad and I can’t say anything otherwise. I changed my vote quickly enough for jingle to believe I was town. Day 3, yet more time spent tunneling iamperfection, only deciding to follow iamperfection in voting tube, after Hapahauli and Hopeless1der had already weighed in their suspicions of tube. This sudden flip-flop on your aggression towards iamperfection looks very suspicious, considering a mislynch in that scenario leads to MYLO the next day. I was pressuring iamperfection to make him talk more. He started talking, and the accusations looked tempting on tube. He was an easy target to lead a mislynch on and I got fooled. Poor posting, inactivity, suspicious motives and several things that made everyone question him. He wasn’t trying and the lack of effort doomed him. We all thought tube was a good case. I thought he was a little better than iamperfection and so I voted him. He made it look worse as the votes piled up so I left it there. I thought he was going to flip mafia. I was wrong, so was the rest of town. Not much else to say about it. If I had been right more we wouldn’t be here. My case + Show Spoiler + I see mafia motive behind speedbumps' lack of posting. He should have been more active since he agreed to replace in. He didn't need to be, though, because the town was headed to mislynch with fingers pointing the wrong direction. He steps in soon after getting attacked, but only enough to divert attention. Where are his reads? Why isn't he posting any analysis? He doesn't need to be. I was the easiest target for him to focus on because of my recent accusation against hopeless, so he pointed the finger back to me. Well, it's worked so far so tip of the hat to him. YourHarry got his read right on me. So did jingle, so did obvious. One last mislynch and it’s game over. Am I really the best lynch? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 29 2012 04:52 iamperfection wrote: Well, I don't really know, but if I had to guess I'd say speedbump + hapa.@calgar just to be clear Who do you think the second scum member is? Is it still hopeless in your eyes? | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 29 2012 06:48 Hapahauli wrote: One case at a time, no reason to do otherwise.Calgar, I'm currently reading through your defense and will post a response later tonight. But I HAD to comment on this right away: Congratulations Calgar, you now have standing suspicions against every player in this game. But seriously... you're saying you bandwagonned on all of my suspicions and cases since Day 1 because you thought I was mafia?!?! Everyone who thought I was town was shot. Is that not a little bit weird? Is mafia not trying to aim a mislynch in a certain direction? Seems like it would be really easy to do so. Where is speedbump? He's a better lynch. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
I think a lot of the case for poor voting can be made for hopeless and iamperfection. Come on guys, switch your votes! They're hoping you'll go along with the case. Try and rethink it objectively based on the facts. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 30 2012 08:20 Hopeless1der wrote: Coach advised it was wrong move + worthless so yep.If "someone" would have claimed blue... | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 30 2012 10:24 Hapahauli wrote: Eh, I dunno. I don't think I could have overcome confirmation bias... they weren't contemplating any other possibility. Anything I said would have been (and was) twisted immediately and since they hadn't figured it out by then I don't think anything I could have said would have mattered.Furthermore, he didn't push for Speedbump's lynch nearly hard enough. The bulk of Calgar's plea to lynch Speedbump was buried in a longer 4-paragraph post (HERE). When dealing with less-vocal townies (Hopeless and iamperfection), it may be more effective to emphasize your suspicions (bold "speedbump is scummy", "why isn't he dead as replacement", etc) - tell people how to think rather than trust them to read and consider your posts. To me the final giveaway was when you made the fake 'FoS' and then backed off and came at me with the huge 'case'. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 30 2012 10:41 Blazinghand wrote: Yeah, you're right, it's always possible. They weren't really even in the thread though (perfection was sure he was right judging from his boss scum post) so I chose to just give up instead of investing a lot more time into the small chance at changing their minds.I personally think your position was still winnable, just very tough. It happens, though. | ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
| ||
calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 30 2012 22:21 marvellosity wrote: Eh, I dunno lol. Most of my reads were wrong and a lot of my strategy/direction was with the help of blazing. Glad it made me look good though I don't know exactly how the game arrived there, but calgar as the final lynch there was interesting. calgar seemed the most capable of good reasoned argument (stick around and play more, man!), so targeting him and make him try to defend himself rather than work things out + discrediting him to the rest of town was quite cool. | ||
| ||