EPTBureaucracy Mafia! - Page 164
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
Honestly, rereading MZ's filter, it looks better than I thought it did. He pushed BH hard until he was lynched and has been generally active. His case against rastaban is the worst part of his filter though, it is almost like he decided to follow my advice from Day 1 and just tunnel someone. His latest stuff is better so hopefully he will improve. Zealos was another option but I have a problem with outright lynching him. Why would he remove the first line from the sandroba PM? He knew sandroba had the original so he knew he would be called out on it. It is a dumb move which reflects the rest of his game. Does that make him scum? I will need convincing. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 25 2012 13:04 VisceraEyes wrote: No, we don't do things for reasons here Prob. *sigh* I'm happy to let you take responsibility for your actions. If you choose to not give reasoning that's your deal. I think layabout was a decent choice, though there are others I'd have chosen first. Hey you put me in thsi position. Think about it, if I wrote up a huge post explaining my reasons scum would use it to say I am setting up excuses for when he flips town. He is dying anyway, so what use does the post provide? It just allows scum to cast doubt on me. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On July 24 2012 08:34 Probulous wrote: Remember people, Day 1 only Foolishness knew his two subordinates. Palmar's play is very similar to Foolishness in that both of them softly pushed people who are likely scum and tunnelled those that are likely town. In Day 1 Palmar straight up called Sandroba confirmed scum and then tunnelled Syllo. However, despite Sandroba being "confirmed scum" and Foolishness pushing Syllo like crazy, Palmar opts to constantly soft push MZ. Why? I think MZ is the other executive and Palmar never knew this. Palmar is smart, he would easily pick up on how MZ was going with the flow on Day 1 but he cannot push him hard because of his vet status he might be an exec. Then suddenly come Day 2, he stops mentioning MZ at all. Why? Well because Foolishness has found a way to let his execs know who their buddy is. That's a pretty mighty inconsistency. This is the last time you mention MZ before I gave you the power to lynch. That means that you not only did NOT look over MZ overnight (not afraid of dying? Why not?), you also chose based on what would make you look good (X and Y could be construed as scummy...can't have that) rather than what's good for town (lynching scummy individuals) When I had the power, I didn't give a FUCK if it looked like I was trying to buy town cred by flipping who everyone wanted flipped or about the fact that I wasn't interested in lynching BH BEFORE getting the power or anything. I saw scum, I lynched scum. End of story. While the circumstances are slightly different, if we're the same alignment the reaction to receiving a lynch should be the same...which is "Whoa, I can lynch anyone I want! Let's get rid of scum!" ##Vote: Probulous I don't think you're town. I think if you were town you would have had the guts to pull the trigger on someone town wanted to lynch today. After all, there's always the chance town won't be able to consolidate on Zeal/MZ. The reasons you gave for lynching laya had nothing to do with laya. Period. You were asked "Why laya over others" not "Why not MZ or Zealos" and you answered the second question. You HAD to know that the question was coming, so why didn't you have evidence against layabout to justify your choice instead of a prefabricated response to what was sure to be asked? My mind can be changed. This is a gut vote, but I believe in it right now. Change my mind. Please. I don't want to lynch you if you're town...I just don't think that's the case right now. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
The post you quote is focused on Palmar, not MZ. Yes, I didn't look over MZ last night. We have a whole day and I certainly didn't expect to die. I was sure that Syllo or Supersoft were next. The reason I didn't just straight up pull the trigger is because I CAN BE WRONG! Geez, I went back and reread and took my time and now that makes me scum? I don't have any reads that are 100% like yesterday. Having a day vig is a big responsibility so I wanted to be sure. Tell me this VE, if I had lynched MZ or Zealos, could you not point out that most of town wanted that? It is an easy decision with no real ramifications because I could legitiamtely blame everyone else as well. You gave me this to check my alignment, well I gave you something to think about. You're being illogical because I am not behaving how you expect me too. Instead of jumping to conclusions, take a break and think clearly. I never gave reasons for lynching laya, I gave reasons for not lynching MZ or Zealos because that is what you expected me to do. You expected a MZ or Zealos lynch so I explained why I chose not to lynch them. I will write up my case now because clearly that is what you want. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 17 2012 10:04 wherebugsgo wrote: Shit that makes layabout scummy: Read his filter first, it's not long at all. Keep that in mind for a second. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=233798 He does nothing but shed doubt on sandro's claim. He instantly disbelieves it without considering other evidence. He knows the caliber of sandro's town play yet he doesn't even acknowledge the possibility that sandro could be town. In addition he's stayed toward the back of the discussion, as he does when he is scum. When he is town he is out in front if he thinks people are being stupid. He will kick and scream and call people retarded if they're doing something he disagrees with. Clearly he disagrees with us sheeping sandro on his catch of Kurumi (otherwise why else would he shed doubt on it?) but notice that he actually doesn't do anything to stop the wagon. i.e. his doubt is unfounded and he wants to undermine sandro without taking heat for the action itself. Scum tactic. Which I expanded upon here On July 17 2012 15:13 Probulous wrote: Thanks for that Gonzaw. About layabout Here is the entirety of layabouts filter Firstly, he assumes Sandro can send more than one message per day, or alternatively that he will live overnight. Given he has outed a scum that is highly unlikely. We all know Sandro is a deadly when on form so I would be surprised if he lives till tomorrow (he even stated as much). More damning though is that layabout didn't even bother to follow up on his question. I can understand forgetting a question here and there (it's a busy thread) but his only contribution this whole game has been to question the validity of Sandro's claim. It serves no purpose, especially that Kurumi has confirmed Sandro's claim. In addition, bugs correctly pointed out that layabout is very vocal when he is town. I played with him in Werewolves and he was killed early because he was way too calm and clear. He lurked a lot in my other game with him when we were both mafia (Wiggles Mini II). There isn't much to go on but what is there is pretty bad. Note that his lurking is indicative of his alignment. He is not normally a lurker unless he rolls scum. This post has already been pointed out by Syllo but it is worth rementioning On July 23 2012 09:32 layabout wrote: If we leave the Palmar defense for now, why post this? At this point Foolishness had flipped so his read can be discounted as invalid. We had presented evidence against Palmar to which he disagreed but there is obviously doubt about Foolishness' alignment. The fact that laya casts doubt on Syllo based on two scum's cases is atrocious. He has no reason to believe they have more knowledge about Syllo than we do, and more importantly that they would be genuine in their read given they are scum. Like who seriously puts stock into flipped mafia's cases, especially after night 1? It just serves to cast doubt on Syllo for no reason. I still think we should lynch zealos. >>CLICK<< ##vote zealos I think it's worth bearing in mind that both Palmar and Foolishness expressed the opinion that syllogism is mafia and continued to do so. A large part of why syllogism was not a lynch candidate early on was that the players that know him well can easily tell his alignment after a few days. Why are people voting for Palmar? I haven't seen anything concrete. Anyway he come out hard defending Palmar here. Saying there is no evidence. He goes back and forth with Syllo continuously stating that there is no case against Palmar. When I point out how stupid this is he responds with this On July 23 2012 10:13 layabout wrote: This is the first day that there has been time and reason to debate the lynch target. There are many reasons to lynch zealos and we should. Where are these cases against Palmar that you speak of? All i see is aggressive pushing and no reasoning and it stinks. I shake my head and realise he won't read the thread so I post some stuff. Twice. On July 23 2012 10:35 Probulous wrote: He obviously believes he is an amazing analyst so where is his analysis, let's take a look. In response to this So wrong on both accounts here. What about this Probably wrong as well. So next is MZ who could be scum, let's see the case Not a normal palmar case. Where is the vehemence and fire and passion. Note how passive the bolded is. This is a case meant to fail. + Show Spoiler [Passive pushes for MZ lynch] + On July 17 2012 23:26 Palmar wrote: But between lynching kurumi, and preferably killing MZ too, you have some time if you're town. On July 18 2012 00:52 Palmar wrote: I have no problem with kurumi nuking rol as I already explained. And I don't think BH will flip scum. If you want to lynch someone else, MZ would be my first choice. On July 18 2012 05:32 Palmar wrote: I also have no intention of lynching you right now, I want to lynch Kurumi, MZ, maybe gonzaw. I can only kill one guy a day On July 18 2012 05:35 Palmar wrote: regarding GGQ, he's super lurky when he's scum, but he kinda is as town too. It's not a bad call to lynch him based on his day 1 posting right now, but I'd prefer MZ On July 18 2012 07:35 Palmar wrote: Can we kill MZ instead pls? On July 18 2012 07:43 Palmar wrote: for emphasis ##Vote Meapak Then I post my initial case on Gonzaw and suddenly Palmar is known for his analysis which he clearly states in the early game. He is then wrong about Sandroba and BH straight away. Then when he pushes MZ he posts a case that is weak as shit and then never actually pushes it. He even pleads for us to vote MZ but never forces the issue, despite it being clear that we were looking for targets. His language is passive and nonconfrontational. Then when I post my case on Gonzaw suddenly Gonzaw is the flavour of the month and not MZ, despite his constant pleas to vote off MZ. Ok, maybe Gonzw was a more feasible lynch but why is his shoot to kill list devoid of his target he was pushing all Day 1? I'll tell you why because he realised that MZ is probably the other Executive. To which I get no response. In fact he hasn't bothered to comment on anything since then. Why? Because his only reason for defending Palmar evaporated into thin air. TLDR: layabout irrationally cast doubt on both Sandroba and Syllo. Then he defended Palmar because "there were no cases against him" but when evidence was presented he refused to comment on them. He is lurking like he does when he is scum. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
GJ! if you have the choice between 1) someone who shot the mafia CEO n2, catched the other scumvet AND who is listing the guy you want to get killed on his scumlist ALL game long 2) someone who gave you power for no real reason you manage to chose the second guy! ESPECIALLY after a night like this!!! no death means that something is wrong in the scumteam! now we have this situation. we cant be sure about probulus anymore because he decided to do unexpected stuff | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 25 2012 13:53 supersoft wrote: GJ VE! i told you guys to give this power to me and i'll lynch MZ. GJ! if you have the choice between 1) someone who shot the mafia CEO n2, catched the other scumvet AND who is listing the guy you want to get killed on his scumlist ALL game long 2) someone who gave you power for no real reason you manage to chose the second guy! ESPECIALLY after a night like this!!! no death means that something is wrong in the scumteam! now we have this situation. we cant be sure about probulus anymore because he decided to do unexpected stuff Well I asked him to explain why he never gave it you but he didn't. Do you think laya is scum? | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 24 2012 22:09 supersoft wrote: first stage suspects: sloosh, meapak, gonzaw second stage suspects: zealos, layabout, austin third stage suspects: rastaban, Mattchew, marvellosity, Q-bert-Z Given he is in your list of scum (sure second tier but he certainly is there) I don't see what your problem is with my choice? VE would have had to have chosen who gets the crown last night. So the no death thing doesn't come into it. I agree you were a better choice (well kind of, I know I am town so he got that part right) but I don't see why you think I am scum. Doing "unexpected" things that fit with your reads, shouldn't impact on your read of me. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
I admit, that my first stage, second stage and thirdstage post was a mistake. I just wanted to give you a rough image... No let's hope the best. He'll flip soon right? | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On July 25 2012 14:13 supersoft wrote: okay I read layabout now. And I honestly wouldn't have killed him. I fail to see why he's scummier than sloosh or MZ. I admit, that my first stage, second stage and thirdstage post was a mistake. I just wanted to give you a rough image... No let's hope the best. He'll flip soon right? that depends on mods | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
On July 25 2012 14:16 Probulous wrote: I PM'd them. hah! This is finally something I completely support! :-D Anyways I have a problem with the night. Why didn't anyone die? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
supersoft, would you honestly have lynched MZ if I'd made you King? | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 25 2012 14:25 supersoft wrote: hah! This is finally something I completely support! :-D Anyways I have a problem with the night. Why didn't anyone die? I'm assuming someone was protected. Bugs dying night 1 could be explained by the medic protecting Sandro. Why he wasn't protected night 2 is a mystery though. If there was a vet around I would have expected a claim. Alternatively maybe there is a scum mechanic which can save shots for later? Or maybe they shot a bullet proof third party role... | ||
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Protactinium
Canada550 Posts
Layabout the Company American has been slapped to death with a rulebook. America! Just kidding, you are actually Canada, posing as an AMERICAN. You are quite loyal to King George, but in order to be successful as a businessman, you have lived your whole life attempting to imitate AMERICA. Thus, you may launch a nuclear missile at someone by typing nuke: player x.Unfortunately, you aren't very good at your job, so when you decide to launch nuclear attacks on foreign countries, your nuke will be a dud. Sadly enough, the company actually buys your AMERICA impersonation, so you'll have to find up some interesting excuse when the attack fails. Maybe you can blame the Chairman of the Board and take over his position! You win with the mafia and report directly to the Chairman of the Board. Here is the green town pm for your information: Entrepeneurial employee You are an entrepeneurial and innovative employee. Although you have no special power or authority, you are a lively and hard working employee. Fortunately, the evil bureaucrats haven't tried to stifle your creativity...yet. You win with the town. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On July 25 2012 14:35 Probulous wrote: I'm assuming someone was protected. Bugs dying night 1 could be explained by the medic protecting Sandro. Why he wasn't protected night 2 is a mystery though. If there was a vet around I would have expected a claim. Alternatively maybe there is a scum mechanic which can save shots for later? Or maybe they shot a bullet proof third party role... As far as I'm concerned the most likely scenario is that whoever is making decisions didn't make any decisions. I don't think there's any kind of medic role, as there's only 1 KP per night and a lot of people to kill in order for scum to meet their objectives. Scum are already given the ability to take away town's only weapon in the lynch because Palmar flipped Pardoner. I find it highly unlikely that there's a medic, or that anyone was protected from night KP. That's my opinion. I could totally be wrong, but at this point I don't care because no one died. Zippity doo dah day let's kill scum. | ||
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