EPT
iGrok's Good Clean Old-fashioned Mafia - Page 46
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Day 4 ![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120428173517/swordgirls/images/b/bc/200092L.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120131065932/swordgirls/images/0/08/300108L.jpg) Head Knight iGrok and Sleep Club Student gonzaw Sleep Club Student gonzaw was having a bad dream. She didn't know what was happening at school, people were disappearing left and right, a vampire was on the loose, and Head Knight iGrok seemed powerless to stop anything. She was up all night, tossing and turning. When she didn't show up to school in the morning, iGrok wasn't even surprised that yet another student was missing. Sleep Club Student gonzaw didn't show up to school! [It's important to be ready to have the perfect sleep, no matter where or when. I call this technique the perfect camouflage.] It is now Day 4! Please remember to vote. Day ends in 48 hours, 9:00 KST. Please remember that flavor is flavor and nothing more  5 Players remaining! | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
People, reread everything I posted and take it into account....but don't sheep me, take it into account but make your own analysis' to catch the remaining scum/SK. I've said everything I needed to say this night, so au revoir | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
GL town  | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Prp, if you are town, you are going to get mislynched and lose the game. I need a solid effort from you in the next 24 hours. If you are not the last scum, who do you think is. Find him and push him. I'm going to be rereading everyone, there's no reason to slack off now folks. Wiggles, I want you to assume Prplhz is town, who is the last scum if that's the case? Greymist, you haven't done much of anything lately. Are you convinced prplhz is the last scum? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
On June 19 2012 09:11 Radfield wrote: Well played Gonzaw. Very solid effort. Prp, if you are town, you are going to get mislynched and lose the game. I need a solid effort from you in the next 24 hours. If you are not the last scum, who do you think is. Find him and push him. I'm going to be rereading everyone, there's no reason to slack off now folks. Wiggles, I want you to assume Prplhz is town, who is the last scum if that's the case? Greymist, you haven't done much of anything lately. Are you convinced prplhz is the last scum? Don't you think he is a little scummy for not helping us at all? not to mention the contradictions: On June 17 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote: Don't really want to talk about gonzaw. I'm probably just getting the same 3rd party vibes off of him that everybody else is getting too. I want to lynch you because you are still alive. I don't see why scum would shoot Ace and VisceraEyes over you. You can't really do much to defend yourself here and I guess that sucks (for both of us). BrownBear had his weird emotional outburst against Palmar that seemed rather townie but then he didn't do much else which seems less towny. On June 17 2012 06:31 prplhz wrote: Like, gonzaw just did two huge posts on Palmar. One of them says that Palmar is scum because he is too confident in himself, lol have you never played with Palmar before? Anyway, then in his next post he's like "We can lynch prplhz, whatever". At the same time, when I ask for help after having replaced into the middle of a game and expressing my insecurities about playing with you lot, he doesn't seem interested at all. He doesn't appear to want to help me get started or anything. GreYMisT thinks I'm scum but he's been pushing me for something at least. gonzaw doesn't look like he cares and for absolutely no reason. It looks to me like he's just doing whatever this game and that seems 3rd partyish to me. 8 page filter and then I still don't get the feeling that he actually cares about town this game. On June 17 2012 06:57 prplhz wrote: I don't think that Palmar is scum no. It's mostly his demeanor and I'm probably shit at that but I think that he seems townie enough for now. Your case is a little far fetched with the "How is he so confident?!". I didn't read it all too hard 'cause you were all yelling at me to write something in this thread and I didn't think that Palmar was scum so now I'm here. If you think I'm going to replace in and carry this game then you're crazy. Not only do I suck compared to most of you, I also replaced in mid way which is kind of hard to do. The rest of you have several days on me. I'm here and I'm giving you my opinion and that's really what I'm going to be doing for at least today. inb4 "l0L he r maek xcuze 4 not p0st". Your filter is just so fucking huge, 8 pages that's 20% of this game. And it feels like you're all over the place, pointing at someone and then pointing at someone else and not really caring who gets lynched (right now of Palmar and me but I think this has been a general trait of yours in this game). And then suddenly! On June 17 2012 08:30 prplhz wrote: Okay screw that. gonzaw is not scum and no matter if he is SK or town he wants to lynch scum today. He's also putting in quite a bit of effort so maybe he's right. Palmar isn't doing much and I don't really have a huge town read on him. He just seemed townie when I read the game. Anyway, lets just roll with this Palmar lynch today. I'm just going to sheep gonzaw on an opinion I don't really agree with but that's how it's going to be for now. ##Vote: Palmar If gonzaw is scum then gg wp. You should try replacing into a game where everybody thinks you're scum by default, it's not really all that fun. He also keeps bringing up this "i'm scum by default" bit. Well yea, you are never here, and you arnt doing anything, and your filter is full of the above. You are scum by default for just doing that. I was scum by default to gonzaw day 1, but the difference between you and me is I decidided to become helpful, rather than complain and guilt trip the town into not voting me. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On June 19 2012 09:11 Radfield wrote: Well played Gonzaw. Very solid effort. Prp, if you are town, you are going to get mislynched and lose the game. I need a solid effort from you in the next 24 hours. If you are not the last scum, who do you think is. Find him and push him. I'm going to be rereading everyone, there's no reason to slack off now folks. Wiggles, I want you to assume Prplhz is town, who is the last scum if that's the case? Greymist, you haven't done much of anything lately. Are you convinced prplhz is the last scum? That question is basically asking, "Who's scummier, me or Brownbear?". I'll read through, but I'll reserve posting judgement for later, because I'm very sure that prplhz is the last mafia. What do you think about my case on GreYMisT? Since no one, including GreY has commented on it, I'll assume it's because it got buried: Ok, I'm sure everyone already knows my stance on chaoshz. If you really want me to pick through what prplhz has been doing since he replaced in even though it's been pretty blatantly scummy, I can. Otherwise, I'd like to present to you the SK, our very own GreYMisT! Now, why is he the SK you ask? Well, the major point is that he is maintaining a facade of being pro-town while not actually pushing his so-called scum reads. Here's his filter for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&user=120900 I'm going to focus mostly on his play since Day/Night 1, though what I'm saying applies to then as well. That starts on page 4 of his filter. The big thing looking through the filter from that point, is to ask yourself, "What has GreYMisT done or accomplished?". For example, he says stuff like he's suspicious of one person more than another, and he asks questions of people, but does he actually try to push for lynches? For example, he makes a case on Radfield, and then quickly backs off. The next person he starts to feel out is prplhz. This post shows that he apparently likes a prplhz lynch more than a palmar one: On June 17 2012 03:07 GreYMisT wrote: I think his play this game is highly unusual. I mentioned some things before the flip that I thought weird about him. It is possible that I have misinterpreted your actions regarding VE. Unless I'm mistaken its LyLo, so I have been reconsidering my vote on you quite a bit so I can be as sure as possible. I like your defense, and upon rereading I have decided not to vote you. Understand when I reread you, I was looking for weird behavior surrounding VE and MZ. I found some, but i realize that it would have made far more sense for you to keep pushing VE into day 2, as opposed to acting the way you did. Anyway, You me and Gonzaw appear to be it as far as activity goes. might as well assume we are all town right? ( )joking aside, I again want to be as sure as possible, so lets get a real disscussion going . Would you guys really like to lynch palmar over say Chaoser/prp? I feel atm that he has a higher chance of being mafia. Notice though, how he words the suspicion. He doesn't say, "I think prplhz is more likely to be mafia, so let's lynch him", instead he asks Gonzaw/Radfield if they would like to lynch palmar over prplhz. He's feeling out what the general attitude towards the lynch is. Then again, he's sounding out where the general direction is: On June 17 2012 03:58 GreYMisT wrote: I'd like to hear everyone's 2 people they want to see dead today. I am personally fine with lynching Prp and now Palmar at this point. Notice he doesn't say he wants to lynch prp over Palmar, even though that was his original thought. Now he's just fine with either of them. Then, during my argument with Gonzaw, he doesn't actually take a side, he just writes this: On June 17 2012 08:51 GreYMisT wrote: I agree with wiggles, a plan that requires the SK to shoot scum (when he doesnt know 100% even) is a plan that can go very, very wrong. Implying that he agrees with me somewhat, but notice he doesn't actually push his opinion one way or the other. He doesn't say we should lynch prpl because my plan is correct or things could go wrong with a Palmar lynch, and he doesn't say that he thinks I'm wrong and we should lynch Palmar. This is also surprising, because in a way I gave him an outlet to vote for prplhz, who he said he thought was more likely to be scum than Palmar, but instead he doesn't. In fact, even though he said he thought prplhz was more likely to be mafia than Palmar, his vote never touches prp. After he unvotes rad, he holds it, which fits in with the idea that he's trying to sound out what people are thinking to slide along with the majority. Then, he eventually votes for Palmar after it's clear a prplhz switch isn't happening: On June 18 2012 01:17 GreYMisT wrote: Im going to vote palmar, hopefully there are no objections atm. Something to note, is that he mentions that "hopefully there are no objections atm". Why is he apologetic about his vote? If he thinks Palmar is scum, why does he care if someone objects to his vote? This is also at a point where Palmar was very likely to be lynched considering activity and the complete lack of discussion about lynching prplhz instead from anyone other than myself and gonzaw. So, why is he apologetic? Because he doesn't want to cause waves or step on anyone's toes. + Show Spoiler [Irony] + On June 17 2012 08:42 GreYMisT wrote: Its LyLo, now is not the time to sheep votes you don't believe in. This is just a kicker but pretty funny when compared with GreY saying he likes the prplhz lynch more but then not pushing for it at all. So, overall, GreY's behaviour over the last cycle has been exemplary of a vast majority of his play over this whole game. He is not actually pushing to lynch the people he suspects. Instead, he states a suspicion, and then follows along with how the rest of the town is voting. He doesn't argue for his own opinion, but meekly folds over like a wet noodle when it looks like there's some kind of opposition. Now, you might ask, how does that make him the SK? Well, the answer is rather simple. It's because he's doing a rather good job of blending in. He isn't pushing his suspicions, so mafia won't see him as a threat when compared to players who are actually doing analysis and pushing for scum to be killed. Meanwhile, he's doing a good job of posting "reads", but not actually much reasoning or analysis behind those reads. So, town will be content to let him live, because they'll see him as someone who's posting his thoughts or being open. That way, he's not in danger of being lynched. He's living life in the middle of the road, not dangerous enough for scum to shoot, and not scummy enough for town to lynch as mafia. Add on to this, that GreY himself if posting about how the SK isn't afraid of being shot, so he'll be one of the most pro-town players in the game. He's moving any potential area to look for the SK into the more active and helpful players, and thus away from himself. Mafia already want to shoot there, because those are the most dangerous townies, and now town might want to lynch them as well, because any one of them could be the SK. This also helps by making sure the pool of players most likely to be able to catch GreY are shot by scum and also seen as suspicious so that hopefully they won't have enough power to lynch him. Overall, this all adds up to point to the conclusion that GreY is the SK. On June 19 2012 23:52 GreYMisT wrote: Don't you think he is a little scummy for not helping us at all? not to mention the contradictions: And then suddenly! He also keeps bringing up this "i'm scum by default" bit. Well yea, you are never here, and you arnt doing anything, and your filter is full of the above. You are scum by default for just doing that. I was scum by default to gonzaw day 1, but the difference between you and me is I decidided to become helpful, rather than complain and guilt trip the town into not voting me. Helpful, but not town, unfortunately. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Do you think Greymist has a chance of flipping scum Wiggles? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On June 20 2012 06:13 Radfield wrote: I haven't really looked hard at your case on Greymist, because it's way easier to find the last scum first. Do you think Greymist has a chance of flipping scum Wiggles? I guess he could be scum if I'm wrong, but my own read is very much that prplhz is the last mafia, and then GreY is the SK. What's yours? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
What do you think of when Chaoser defends Palmar on Day 1? Do you think that looks like scum defending his buddy? Pretty much anyone could be SK right now, it's difficult to tell. Certainly the last few days SK would have been playing hard to find scum, so the first several days are the key. Greymist has a lot of interaction with Palmar, and it all looks pretty natural. Brownbear has a TON of interaction with Palmar, as well as voting Palmar day 1 when Palmar was up for lynch. Greymist and Brownbear, do you think wiggles could be the last scum? Do me a favor and reread his filter, see if anything grabs you. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
sad gonzaw died, he was playing a pretty good game. Although, having him not tunneling me constantly is a good thing now | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Anyway, I really do suck and I'll see if I can't do something sensible today though I'm a little busy so it's not going to be until tonight. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'll post my thoughts at lunch when I get a chance. I don't like his post after Day 1 though(the people who did not vote MZ or Palmar post), nor do I like his attempt to switch the lynch to prp. I'll read a bit more though. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Day 1 is obviously a write-off, as he does nothing of consequence, and votes himself. Fairly quickly he gets back after the deadline, and I found his post very odd:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=22#433 He mentions the three players who DIDN'T vote MZ or Palmar, which was very strange. A townie was just lynched, so who cares about the singleton votes. It makes far more sense to focus on the MZ voters. However, if you know that Palmar is mafia, it all of a sudden makes more sense, because the people who didn't vote MZ/Palmar are people who were afraid to weigh in when a scum death was on the line. From a mafia perspective, it makes sense to have those three look scummy(because it looks like they both wanted to save Palmar, yet didn't want to link themselves in the voting lists) The entire case he builds on Chaoser+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=23#458 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=24#466 is stretched and overstated. Early plays like Chaosers RNG thing can only be taken so far in a case. However it's mostly the tone that gets me, as it seems like Wiggles is trying not to convince us that Chaoser is scum, but rather to convince us that Wiggles is Town. A lot of the paragraphs are spent relating stories and analogies. A refusal to post a read on Palmar: It wasn't worth commenting on because it wasn't completed. When Palmar does stuff, sometimes it's for different purposes than it just appears to be on the surface. When he makes that post on Gonzaw, I have no clue if he actually thinks Gonzaw is scum, or he just wants to pressure him for a reaction, or he wants to see if someone else reacts, or whatever. Like I said, it didn't give me any reason to vote gonzaw and goes against my own read. Besides that, it's palmar doing palmar stuff. I normally ignore that stuff until I think he's scum for it, or it becomes something actual i.e. people actually voting, an actual analysis, a follow-up post, etc. I also don't particularly like Wiggles play surrounding his Hesmyrr reasoning. I have no real salient point to make with it, but something seems off. You guys be the judge: If I change my read on chaoser, or need to vote to get him lynched, I'll switch onto Hesmyrr. I like the case on him, and what BB added. His Day 1 vote made me a little suspicious, but I wasn't ready to call him out completely on it, as well, I didn't like his case on VE very much. It had a couple points that were OK, but a big part of it seemed like it was just completely ignoring the content of VE's posts in favour of calling him scum for them. I want to see what he has to say in defense as well. I mentioned the stance on Day 1, and his case on VE as my own reasons. That he doesn't commit to what he said with a vote shows that he wanted to distance himself somewhat from the lynch, and the VE case doesn't follow logically from what VE posted. It just looks like he decided to make a case on VE and needed reasons to call him scummy; it's grasping. I also agree with what you and BB wrote about the wishy-washiness and wanting to just sort of blend in. I also like when it was pointed out that Hesmyrr just sort of pops up whenever he's being talked about. That's pretty much the definition of active lurking, and is also a strike against him. He just kind of hits all the reasons in these posts. It feels like he's throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Wiggles obviously also tries hard to divert the lynch off of Palmar onto prplhz. I'm not going to go into it deeply, but it's obviously scummy by definition. The arguments are not really the prplhz is necessarily scummier. Wiggles puts forward that HE thinks prplhz is scummier, but he never really labors and tries to convince everyone else of that fact. He mainly tries to argue that from a logic standpoint lynching prplhz makes more sense, which is a strange argument. That's my blitz case on Wiggles. It's not exceptionally strong, as I haven't been able to really flesh out my case. I'm not necessarily making a judgement on Wiggles, as I want to first reread prplhz/chaoser. I'd like to hear Grey's and BB's thoughts though. Wiggles, if you want to respond to this, that's fine, though most of my case is built on tone and motivation. Additionally on Palmar's interaction with you, which I didn't touch on. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm checkin out prplhz now, and I'm going to decide which one to lynch. If you guys just want to sheep me, that's fine. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Prplhz's filter looks awful though, so that might be what I have to go on. gah | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
##vote: prplhz | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:26 Radfield wrote: OK, here's the blitz case on wiggles. Day 1 is obviously a write-off, as he does nothing of consequence, and votes himself. Fairly quickly he gets back after the deadline, and I found his post very odd:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=22#433 He mentions the three players who DIDN'T vote MZ or Palmar, which was very strange. A townie was just lynched, so who cares about the singleton votes. It makes far more sense to focus on the MZ voters. However, if you know that Palmar is mafia, it all of a sudden makes more sense, because the people who didn't vote MZ/Palmar are people who were afraid to weigh in when a scum death was on the line. From a mafia perspective, it makes sense to have those three look scummy(because it looks like they both wanted to save Palmar, yet didn't want to link themselves in the voting lists) It doesn't matter what Palmar and MZ's respective alignments were because those three all still decided to not weigh in on the lynch. Two of them made it pretty clear they would want to vote for MZ, but never followed through with it. That he turned out to be town made it worse, because then it looks like they didn't want to be be linked to his lynch. It looks scummy because they wanted to lynch town but didn't follow through with it. If they're townies, then they would think that the person is scum and vote for them, if they're actually writing their true thoughts in the thread. If they're scum on the other hand, they know MZ will flip town, so they'll avoid actually voting for him so they can't be linked to killing a townie. It looked suspicious to me, so I analyzed it. The entire case he builds on Chaoser+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=23#458 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558¤tpage=24#466 is stretched and overstated. Early plays like Chaosers RNG thing can only be taken so far in a case. However it's mostly the tone that gets me, as it seems like Wiggles is trying not to convince us that Chaoser is scum, but rather to convince us that Wiggles is Town. A lot of the paragraphs are spent relating stories and analogies. The second post was in response to gonzaw who dismissed my case with about 5 lines of text, and terrible reasoning. The original case is not long or overdrawn, it's short and to the point. The second post was trying to explain it to Gonzaw because either he didn't understand or I did a bad job communicating what I meant. So, I used analogies and stories to try to show how I saw chaoser acting in different words than his own, or to draw parallels to how he was acting. Personally, I think Palmar is being Palmar right now (or at least acting like it). He's been changing his scum meta recently from being just useless from Day 1 on to trying to act like himself for a while. I'm leaning slightly towards town now, but if he starts not pushing any cases or doing anything useful, it means he's scum. That ended up being the case. I also don't particularly like Wiggles play surrounding his Hesmyrr reasoning. I have no real salient point to make with it, but something seems off. You guys be the judge: How's it scummy? As far as I could tell, prplhz was considered scum by a majority of people. I thought so, you made posts indicating that, Gonzaw said he thought he was the SK, etc. So, the motivation for my posts wasn't to convince people that he was scum, since I thought everyone already agreed about that. The motivation was that I wanted to lynch him first. The best way to show why this was the optimal play was through logic, which unfortunately no one understands or bothered to comment on. It was pretty much agreed that Palmar was mafia. Meanwhile, I though prplhz was mafia, and Gonzaw thought he was the SK. In the situation we were in, we could have ended up in some terrible positions even lynching scum. So, the logical thing to do was to lynch the contentious player first, and then lynch the one who was mafia, because lynching mafia second was always the correct play no matter if the SK or Mafia was lynched first. On the other hand, lynching mafia first means that we had situations where we had to kill mafia and couldn't even lynch the SK. That means that if we mis-fingered the SK as mafia, or mafia pushed an SK lynch that made sense, because the guy was scum, we would lose. That's a shitty way to lose, and something I wanted to avoid. Say I was wrong about chaoser being mafia, and he was really the SK, that's a loss. Say Gonzaw was wrong about BB and Chaoser was mafia and not SK, that's a loss. The better thing to do was to have the conversation that day and make a decision while we still had time. Unfortunately, the conversation never happened as everyone was inactive or just plain lurking.He just kind of hits all the reasons in these posts. It feels like he's throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Wiggles obviously also tries hard to divert the lynch off of Palmar onto prplhz. I'm not going to go into it deeply, but it's obviously scummy by definition. The arguments are not really the prplhz is necessarily scummier. Wiggles puts forward that HE thinks prplhz is scummier, but he never really labors and tries to convince everyone else of that fact. He mainly tries to argue that from a logic standpoint lynching prplhz makes more sense, which is a strange argument. Also, if everyone suddenly changed their minds to thinking prplhz was town, I didn't know it, because no one said anything in the thread. I was working under the assumption that town agreed he was scum, but we were divided on whether he was mafia or SK. That's my blitz case on Wiggles. It's not exceptionally strong, as I haven't been able to really flesh out my case. I'm not necessarily making a judgement on Wiggles, as I want to first reread prplhz/chaoser. I'd like to hear Grey's and BB's thoughts though. Wiggles, if you want to respond to this, that's fine, though most of my case is built on tone and motivation. Additionally on Palmar's interaction with you, which I didn't touch on. That's my response. Looking forward to what you think of prplhz. Also, I want you to comment on GreYMisT. We still have to find the SK after we kill prpl. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
This is long overdue: ##Vote: prplhz We need to kill mafia to remove their KP. If you don't think prplhz is mafia, make a case for someone else and present it. Otherwise, he dies. | ||
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