iGrok's Good Clean Old-fashioned Mafia - Page 10

BrownBear:
Hmm, his behaviour seems townie...but there's something about his interactions with Palmar that seem off.
First of all, voting Palmar for the RNG deal is just stupid, and if he was scum he'd know it'd be stupid and wouldn't convince anybody
to vote for Palmar.
Second, he goes against Palmar pretty heavily...but doesn't actually call him scum. He just calls him a "cancer to town", votes him
and just argues and argues and says "we need to cut it or ignore it", never says he wants to lynch him because he thinks Palmar is
scum or anything.
Even so, his 1st vote on him was a "preliminary vote", again, there was no strong accusation or anything.
That seems fishy.
He does seem VERY upset against Palmar...but to be honest I can't see BB being actually frustrated like that regarding Palmar's
play. Like, if he had been arguing for 10 pages with Palmar, with Palmar ignoring him or something, then yes I'd think it was
justified; but like, he votes Palmar for disrupting town and the RNG bit, and IMMEDIATELY gets frustrated and annoyed by him, for
instance these posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&currentpage=18#359
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&currentpage=18#360

Like, getting so worked up because Palmar called him "useless" seems weird to me.

He keeps saying that he's "annoyed right now"...hmm.

In N1, he immediately starts to think Palmar is "just BM-style town - annoying, misleading, and should be ignored."
So...he starts to think Palmar is town now...when he spent 100% of his effort on D1 trying to get Palmar lynched for that specific
behaviour he mentioned.

Like I said, I guess he "could" have acted like this as town, realize his mistake and then ignore Palmar. It's also possible it's a
planned bus to increase BB's credibility. I'll try to find out and see how BB responds to my vote on Palmar. I guess he is willing
to bus him though, so I'll have to be careful with what he does.

Of course, I already have a "case" made against him...so I don't need to point those things out again

He's wishy washy about Radfield, casting doubt on him as soon as N1. He finds him suspicious but says he doesn't want to "tunnel" so
he'll look around some more.

He then goes against Palmar for voting me, asks him if he has a case. I think he ignores that later and doesn't follow up on it
He changes his vote on Hesmyrr and doesn't even consider voting Palmar for instance. Yesh this seems fishy

Not only that, he took Palmar's joke "seriously" and as a reason to go against Palmar as well....but still doesn't vote Palmar and
never mentions him again later at all. The fact he took his "joke" seriously is weird as well (although chaoser and Grey thought
I was being legit with my "joke vote" on VE >_> )

He's been absent throughout all N2, avoiding any discussion whatsoever, even though he was active on N1 and D2.

To be honest, his behaviour from N1 and D2 hasn't been as good as I thought, he does seem "nice" and all with some smileys and stuff,
but he just wagons on the Hesmyrr vote (for not that GREAT of reasons), and somehow manages to completely ignore Palmar yet still
go against him.

If Palmar flips scum then I'd find this VERY fishy, enough to warrant a lynch on him. However, if Palmar flips town....for one we lost,
but at least BB is town as well.
The more I read their interactions the more suspicious I get.

BB also seems to ignore Palmar accusing BB of being scum...but never doing anything about it. Every time Palmar accuses BB, he just
throws a hissy fit against Palmar...and then goes on with his usual business. He never mentions why Palmar would cast suspicion on
him without any reason and not pushing it, etc.

Palmar:
Interaction with BB:
His first interaction with BB is mentioning there isn't a case on him and calling him "fucking useless", just like he called Ace.
When BB calls him out, he seems to act casually regarding it, however later he says he thinks BB is scum (in one of those
one-liners of his). His response here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&currentpage=18#349
That doesn't seem the tone of someone that thinks the guy he's responding to is mafia. However he then says he'd like to
lynch BB...but says he prefers a MZ lynch (and lo and behold his vote stays on MZ).
He later says that he'd be willing to make a BB lynch happen...but doesn't do anything. VE said he'd like that as well, but he
just ignores it and later says he thinks Hes is town...nothing else, until the day ends and MZ is lynched.
That kind of interaction is fishy as fuck, because it's Palmar appearing to push a lynch on someone but not actually taking the
effort to do it, which is classic scum bus.
In this post he mentions BB as his "greatest scumread" (implicitly):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&currentpage=24#467
But...? He does nothing about it. If he was town he'd push that read...if he was scum and BB town he'd push that read even more
(like he did with MZ). However in D2 he NEVER AT ALL pushes the BB lynch...only "votes" him as a joke.

More proof:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&currentpage=27#535

He basically tells BB he's scum...and again does nothing to push that lynch. He still has his retarded vote on me.

Then however, he just blatantly says that now he thinks BB is town for reconsidering his reads and because "historically scum
oppose RL" or some shit.
Like, it seems convenient that now both of them "reconciliated" and think each other is town...after both were going full against
each other without actually doing it.

Hmm, he seems to "know" Ace, VE and Hes are town, or subtly imply it.
His read on BB later is this:
"I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him."
That's wishy-washy as hell, and very fishy as well.

Palmar doesn't care about anything, not even on D1. He FoSes MZ but never even mentions him again or cares about the discussions about
him. He FoSes BB but doesn't care about pushing him or anything. He just goes around throwing useless one-liners and stuff.
On D2 his behaviour is a joke. He only appears to:
-Say he thinks I'm scum
-Talk about Radfield
-Say he now thinks BB is town

He doesn't care about the Hes lynch or case, he doesn't even care about pushing me, he doesn't even care about Radfield either since
he changes his stance on him based on Rad thinking VE was scum and nothing else, just disregards everything he said about Radfield
before.
He's acting like in Liar Game where after D1 he just disappears and shows up just to post and blend in.

On June 17 2012 22:29 Radfield wrote:
I don't think there is necessarily a connection between BB and Palmar.

They've had a lot of interaction, and I didn't really find much of it contrived. This exchange in particular seemed legit(open the quotes for the full convo).

---

I do agree that if Palmar flips scum, it casts Wiggles in a worse light. But looking at Wiggles actions and arguments from a scum perspective doesn't seem to fit. If Wiggles and Palmar are scum, then Wiggles is playing completely wrong. Consider: Palmar has basically gone MIA, everyone thinks he is scum and he's almost surely going to get lynched.... What's the proper scum play? You bus obviously. You certainly don't try to play for the immediate win with an ally who isn't even around. You just bus, and then push the mislynch on whomever defended your teammate.

Trying to defend Palmar right now just risks throwing the whole game away.

That's my gut thought anyways, but I'm going to do some reading.

On June 17 2012 07:28 gonzaw wrote:
Although I find your behaviour weird.
If you are town, your behaviour doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I described above, but if you were scum/SK I think you'd try to blend in a little bit more, or at least try to do something instead of complaining the minute you replace into the game, and do nothing at all and even acknowledge that

Hmm, any thoughts on this people? Rad/Grey/Wiggles what do you specifically think of prphlz's behaviour and how it would fit in as scum/SK behaviour?

On June 18 2012 07:23 GreYMisT wrote:
I think he could be either, I think he is scum before SK though just because he isn't playin it like I would. He has pretty much resigned himself to the town, even though it is palmar getting lynched. With this breathing room he should be helping more, but he chooses not too.

On June 18 2012 07:33 BrownBear wrote:


Well, yes. Hence why I said "I will go do that", implying I would go read his filter and decide. Until then, though, I see him as someone where I don't know if he's scum or not, hence, I make no accusations against him.

Erm, duh.

And gonzaw, I have an issue with direct attacks like calling someone "fucking useless". Saying someone is not contributing is a different matter. So I don't have an issue with what Palmar said, I have an issue with the way he said it (and frankly, I don't understand why we let him be as openly hostile as he is).

On June 13 2012 12:24 BrownBear wrote:
Also, Palmar, srsly you think I'm scum every game. Find a new target to tunnel bro.

On June 13 2012 18:17 BrownBear wrote:


Couple things I'd like to see you talk about more here. Firstly, why do you think gonzaw is scum? Could you give us a case?

Secondly, do you have any reason for thinking Radfield is town other than "he agrees with me"? If so, please say it.

---

Anyway, I think Hesmyrr is who I'm gonna vote on now, before I go to sleep. gonzaw's case has a couple good points. Namely, during the first day cycle he really did only pop up when he was being talked about. This indicates he was reading the thread very closely, but trying to avoid actively posting in it - usually only done by players who have something to hide. Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr.

Secondly, Hesmyrr also is doing the same thing I accused Radfield of doing earlier: He's subtly getting other people to contribute in his stead. Example:




He was the original guy to push VE, but he wants (i think) gonzaw to do the analysis? That's very strange. If he couldn't find enough concrete agruments to merit an analysis post, why does he expect another player to find it for him? Either he's very unsure about his analysis skills (not true, it's Hesmyrr, he's a veteran mafia player) or he doesn't want to post analysis out there himself.

It's enough for me right now to vote for Hesmyrr. He and Radfield seem the most suspicious right now, and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger, so...

##Vote: Hesmyrr

One final thing:


Cute. Now how about you contribute, like I said above. Why do you think I'm scum? Is it because I disagree with you? Because that's the only reason you've got so far. And it's a shitty reason, and I'm beginning to think you've just stopped giving a shit about this game and you aren't trying, which is unacceptable in a mini.

Ok, I gotta get up in 6 hours, so I'm off. Night, all!

On June 18 2012 09:25 Radfield wrote:
You feel fairly strongly that Greymist is Town Gonzaw?

On June 18 2012 09:09 gonzaw wrote:
BrownBear you should spend the rest of this night convincing me why we shouldn't lynch you tomorrow and who you think the remaining scum is.

prplhz, you should spend the rest of this night convincing everybody else why they shouldn't lynch you (you see, I'll most likely die tonight...and when I do everybody will want to lynch you), and contribute more.

On June 10 2012 15:04 BrownBear wrote:
however, we aren't gonna learn anything by just going 'lol rng'... without that argumentation, we can't get any reads on people, so we start day 2 as if it were day 1, except down one person - and logically, that person is most likely to be green.

i just don't think it's a good idea.

On June 10 2012 15:15 BrownBear wrote:
another thing i don't like is the idea of 'lets kill ace because he is best scum player in game'. ace is fantastic scum, but he's also very very competent town, so we're basically saying 'lets remove one of the best players in the game while he has almost no evidence against him, on the 3/11 chance he's working against us.' not like i have any better idea, i just think we should think and debate some more before we start throwing tons of votes around.

On June 11 2012 14:30 BrownBear wrote:







These two posts are enough for me to throw a preliminary vote on Palmar. I don't understand why he is witholding the information of why he exactly thinks RNG is giving town a better chance, and I in fact disagree with him for reasons stated above. Caveat, of course, is I haven't fully read past page 8, and have skimmed the rest due to time constraints so this may change.

##Vote: Palmar

Internets are down, posting from a friend's house. They should be fixed tomorrow so I can post more then. On the bright side, new keyboard!

On June 12 2012 05:10 BrownBear wrote:


If you'll look back at page 14, I voted Palmar there, not realizing the voting thread exists.

Way to try to direct attention away from yourself.

On June 12 2012 05:13 BrownBear wrote:






Hope that answers your question. Sorry I haven't been too active.

I hate plans that rely on "withholding information from town" because it casts doubt on the guy who's doing the withholding. Which would be you. It's great you have this awesome plan and all, but as far as I'm concerned, you could be scum trying to mislead the town, you could be a townie with good intentions but a shitty plan... any plan we take should be out in the open for people to discuss, dissect, and modify, because even the act of discussion around the plan forces scum players to come out into the open and argue against it (if it's a good plan) or for it (if it's a bad plan). The reason PMs aren't in this game is so that information stays in the thread. You're trying to keep us in the dark. For what reason?

Also, you still haven't addressed the issues I have with the inherent shittiness of RNG lynches. If you did post about it and I missed it, could you enlighten me?

Palmar, I get that you like to play aggressive and by your own rules, but everything you've done so far this game makes me suspicious of you. Not to mention you've insulted me directly several times. As far as I'm concerned you're a cancerous influence on this town, and we need to either lynch you, or decide that you're just frustrating townie and ignore you.

On June 12 2012 05:33 BrownBear wrote:


You see, I'm not dampering discussion. I'm pointing out that Palmar is. I'm not sure why you don't understand this.

Let me throw up a few examples.



Post contributes nothing. Great, MZ "failed" by agreeing with Greymist? How about you explain some more exactly why and how he failed? How about you provide a logical, well constructed argument about why Greymist and MZ are "wrong" rather than just say "welp, they don't agree with me, they fail, LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH".



So instead of complaining about it, why don't you change it bro?



"Thick" is not an accusation many would say about Radfield, particularly players who have actually played with him. There's a reason scum target him early on rather than let him play entire games. I think he's just as confused as I am - he wants to know your reasoning for supporting RNGs. I do too. Let's hear them?



This is the response of someone who's actually worried that they look like they aren't playing. If Palmar were playing and were secure in this fact, why wouldn't he just link to a bunch of his earlier posts where he was playing and contributing? That would be a much more airtight defense than a simple "screw you". Also, Palmar's too smart to mistake the volume of posts he's posted for actual, meaningful contribution. He's posted like 25 times: I count maybe 2 or 3 of those that are actually useful to town. This is a classic scum tactic (I used it in Mafia XXX, if you're curious) where volume makes a player look active, while clever words or subtle rehashes of earlier topics disguise the fact that none of the posts have much meaningful substance to them.



Direct attack on me and Ace aside, isn't the point of mafia to build cases on people? A weak case is still a case, saying it isn't is stifling town discussion. If you think a case is weak, rather than dismiss it out of hand, you should maybe point out the weaknesses in it or the holes in logic. This builds town cohesion and stronger cases.



Direct attack against another town player (gonzaw) trying to shut down a valid point: Palmar ISN'T PLAYING THIS GAME. He's trying to appear that he is, and he's trying to tie up town conversations he doesn't like by directly flaming the people making them, but he is not contributing anything meaningful of his own.

Now, some people may say "oh, that's how Palmar plays lol" but that shouldn't be acceptable. Like I said earlier - his behavior is a cancer to the town. We need to either cut it out or ignore it.

As far as I'm concerned you're a cancerous influence on this town, and we need to either lynch you, or decide that you're just frustrating townie and ignore you.

Like I said earlier - his behavior is a cancer to the town. We need to either cut it out or ignore it

On June 12 2012 06:16 BrownBear wrote:


I'm assuming you read through my argument and don't agree with it, which is legit, I'll admit I'm a little annoyed right now. However, I'd like to see some reasons why you think I'm misrepresenting his actions.

Also, Hesmyrr, the reasoning is because MZ has posted a couple times:



and




This is when people are starting to say "hey there's no resistance to MZ this is bad guys". I know Palmar got the ball rolling on that, but it's kind of out of character for him to not tunnel someone to death. At the time I posted this, the only person who was still supporting the MZ lynch (albeit sarcastically) was MZ - everyone else was either not supporting it or just didn't care.

On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote:


Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully.

On June 13 2012 02:42 BrownBear wrote:
Did I miss something, or did Ace and Radfield just both claim SK?

ok, ok, i know that isn't true. Anyway...




Something about this passage seems off to me. Radfield addresses ace's insinuation that he's scumteam with Palmar by talking about a hypothetical situation in which he isn't scumteam with Palmar... am I missing something, or does that smell kinda fishy to me?

On June 13 2012 12:23 BrownBear wrote:


Your case on me is without merit and awful.

I posted this earlier, wondering what people think about it:



I think Radfield is ducking something here...

On June 13 2012 15:44 BrownBear wrote:


Also, real quick, we have the same number of posts now, so ha

And I see what you mean now. Still though, something about it weirded me out. If Ace were still alive, we could ask him to clarify, but he isn't, so...

On June 13 2012 17:19 BrownBear wrote:


I did not have time, unfortunately. With 72 hours to go at the time, I thought I would be okay not sacrificing sleep to get through the thread.

I'm feeling like Radfield or Hesmyrr would be a good target. gonzaw already built a case against Hesmyrr that has some salient points (example: only appearing when his name comes up means he was reading the thread closely, but not contributing information unless he has to, which is a scum trait). I'm not 100% convinced yet because of hesmyrr's complete absence, but dude's got some 'splainin to do when he gets back.

As to Radfield, I've mentioned a couple things about him that make me iffy, but one other thing I noticed. Take a look at a sampling of Radfield posts around lynch time and in the night after:



















All of these posts raise questions, which are a good thing. However, the number of Rad's posts that raise questions is far greater than the number of posts that provide answers. This isn't scummy in and of itself, but it could be a way to hide a lack of contribution - you can say you're contributing by "provoking town discussion" by asking questions, but in actuality, you aren't contributing anything, which could be seen as a scummy action...

Gah, I dunno. It's a ton of little things about Radfield's play this game that make me suspicious. But none of them are actually big enough for me to outright point at and say "this is good evidence for you being scum". I need to stop tunneling and look around some more.

On June 13 2012 18:17 BrownBear wrote:


Couple things I'd like to see you talk about more here. Firstly, why do you think gonzaw is scum? Could you give us a case?

Secondly, do you have any reason for thinking Radfield is town other than "he agrees with me"? If so, please say it.

---

Anyway, I think Hesmyrr is who I'm gonna vote on now, before I go to sleep. gonzaw's case has a couple good points. Namely, during the first day cycle he really did only pop up when he was being talked about. This indicates he was reading the thread very closely, but trying to avoid actively posting in it - usually only done by players who have something to hide. Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr.

Secondly, Hesmyrr also is doing the same thing I accused Radfield of doing earlier: He's subtly getting other people to contribute in his stead. Example:




He was the original guy to push VE, but he wants (i think) gonzaw to do the analysis? That's very strange. If he couldn't find enough concrete agruments to merit an analysis post, why does he expect another player to find it for him? Either he's very unsure about his analysis skills (not true, it's Hesmyrr, he's a veteran mafia player) or he doesn't want to post analysis out there himself.

It's enough for me right now to vote for Hesmyrr. He and Radfield seem the most suspicious right now, and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger, so...

##Vote: Hesmyrr

One final thing:


Cute. Now how about you contribute, like I said above. Why do you think I'm scum? Is it because I disagree with you? Because that's the only reason you've got so far. And it's a shitty reason, and I'm beginning to think you've just stopped giving a shit about this game and you aren't trying, which is unacceptable in a mini.

Ok, I gotta get up in 6 hours, so I'm off. Night, all!

Since this setup has no blues who benefit from obscurity, that casts some serious doubt on Hesmyrr

and I think the case against Hes is slightly stronger

On June 17 2012 11:59 BrownBear wrote:
Alright, I'm back.

My resoning behind the Palmar lynch is basically what gonzaw and others have posted. He's not playing the way he normally does when he's town, but he was definitely trying to act like he was Day 1. He's switched his opinion on everyone all the time, without ever providing reasons, and hasn't been called on it until now. He's basically skated, and I don't really understand why we didn't call him on it sooner.

He's definitely my target for today, unless something crazy happens, so I'm gonna look forward. One thing I was considering was the possibility of SK choosing to shoot tonight (and I think someone else mentioned that possibility). Given that the game is winding down, I thought it might be a possibility we'll have to account for. In the end though, I really think SK will not shoot tonight, because it's in his interest to shoot at the last possible moment (preferably when it will end the game). If we mislynch and Palmar is town, then SK will be forced to shoot red to keep the game alive (I think) but given the unlikelihood of that possibility, we're going to have SK KP to worry about.

So I think we lynch Palmar today, then worry about who's SK starting today and tomorrow. My "group of scum" would be:

Palmar
Radfield
prphlz
Wiggles

Palmar, case is proven. The other three I'm much less sure about. I'm certain the SK is one of them, though. All 3 have been trying very hard to play pro-town, but little things about their play have just thrown me off and made me question them.

On June 13 2012 15:42 BrownBear wrote:


Good idea. Since it's a small thread, pretty easy to do, I'd encourage more people to do this as well!

I'm off to do the same thing.

On June 11 2012 03:39 BrownBear wrote:
and radfield, who ninja'd me to a certain extent.

so, let's spark some real discussion. chaoser, what do you have against ace this game. question mark goes here.