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wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 24 2012 20:18 GMT
#841
damn I just realized the vote counts aren't made in the order the voters voted.

Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
May 24 2012 20:20 GMT
#842
Oh whoops I forgot to unvote,
## Unvote
##Vote: Zealos
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
Acid~
Profile Joined September 2010
Thailand442 Posts
May 24 2012 20:21 GMT
#843
On May 25 2012 04:45 Navillus wrote:
Could we get a vote-count up in here?

But what interested me is I think there is definitely a stronger case to be made on Acid than on Zealos or Zelblade, (haven't looked into him yet, give me a little time for that) he made one response, and now no one is voting or pressuring him. So I'd like to ask, Mattchew and Marvel what are your reads on Acid right now?


So, you haven't looked into me, but you still managed to find a stronger case on me than on both scums the town is looking at? Care to share how exactly you arrived at that conclusion?

Oh no, wait, you already told us in the mother of all wall of texts, filled with letters yet devoid of content. I responded to that post, and you in turn did not respond. You come back and try again like nothing happened, but you bring nothing new to the table.

Also, marvel litterally just posted his read on me. It's right there, man.

Anyway...

What is the purpose of your post? If you're town and still think I'm scum, you should be making a case against me, starting by picking apart my response to your original accusation. Except you can't do that, because you know your original accusation was bullshit. It didn't gain traction because townies saw it for the bullshit it was and scum went to find an easier target.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 24 2012 20:21 GMT
#844
I'm going to try and reorder the vote counts and provide them for you guys for all to see.

Froggy any particular reason you've been absent all this time? Why did you not vote for nova or mouldy yesterday? Today I see you voting nova. At what point did you believe him to be scum?
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
May 24 2012 20:36 GMT
#845
To clarify I was referring to Zelblade when I said "haven't looked into him yet". I think I saw Marvel's read earlier looking at that... now. Okay I see it, he says he probably shouldn't have included you, that's not a very complete explanation of his thoughts on you, I'm not saying I think he thinks you're town, I'm saying I want to know all of what he thinks on you.

I didn't respond to your response first because as I think I pointed out somewhere it's rarely useful to get into an argument with the person you're accusing on whether they're scum, you're obviously not going to get them to concede anything and frankly I think VE/WBG and Hiro/Zealos had that ground covered, we didn't need another two players going back and forth on each other.

The purpose of this post isn't to make a case on you it's to look at other people and what they say on you, hence the question at the end, I'm curious as to whether the reason your case didn't gain much traction is because you're scum or because better townie's looked and don't think you're scum. (honestly I was leaning to the second one, that's why I asked two people who I think are town, if I thought it was more likely you being scum I would have asked my scum reads because that puts them in an awkward position if you are scum)

I said you were a stronger read than the other two in part because I'm slow to give up my reads (probably a problem with my play) and in part because if I had phrased it a lot less confidently it would have had even less of an impact. I'm explaining this all now because I admit I did like your response and it pushed you away from a scum read for me and after making that post I actually looked over you again (I noticed what Marvel said a little bit after making that post actually) and between your response and posts since I felt less scummy on you.

So if you're town then Acid I have a question for you, is your biggest scumread still Zelblade? Where would you place Zealos right now? Also what do you think of Froggy?
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
froggynoddy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom452 Posts
May 24 2012 20:38 GMT
#846
Up until Mouldy flipped town I felt that N_T was just playing aggressively. though badly and I pretty much had a null read on him. When Mouldy flipped town however and NT, almost schizophrenically one might say, toned down the aggression I felt like he had a scum agenda. Though we can be somewhat excused him from voting for Mouldy he made very little attempt to find scum apart from his frankly pathetic attack on myself. Optimally as a townie he should have pushed for whoever he felt was most scum rather than wait for a bandwagon to form on Mouldy and just hop on last minute.

However when he was pressured to make a case from Marv who does he pick? Katina. Probably the easiest case to write as even when she is town she lurks like crazy. It seems like N_T desperately needed a case (see my case on Grush in LIV when I was encouraged by scummate to write a case). Note that similar reasoning could be applied to Hiro, hence my mentioning him quite a few times.

I didn't vote for Mouldy due to not having been able to post since lynch time and his lacklustre play had not occurred when I went inactive.
'better still, a satisfied man'
froggynoddy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom452 Posts
May 24 2012 20:40 GMT
#847
EBWOP: And the reason I'm not active is twofold, one is the shitfest that was the VE and WBG pissing fight and 2. am moving out of London tomorrow and am desperately trying to recover as much as my deposit as possible.
'better still, a satisfied man'
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
May 24 2012 20:40 GMT
#848
On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 04:38 HiroPro wrote:

Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.



How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"

And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.

"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"

Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.


I find this entire post deeply inconsistent. I have pointed out several times the scummy motivations for doing what Zealos did. Your justification on zelblade is so weak.

To the bold: so zelblade has some special power, and the best way to utilise it is... wait... it's coming.... I know! to say he's going to post reads and then not! That's sure to make him survive so he can use his powers!

-.-
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
May 24 2012 20:42 GMT
#849
EBWOP: that post was in part in response to Navillus as well as in response to Acid. I do not have a comprehensive read on Acid at the moment.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
May 24 2012 20:55 GMT
#850
To Navillus: why do you have a town-read on Matt?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Acid~
Profile Joined September 2010
Thailand442 Posts
May 24 2012 20:58 GMT
#851
On May 25 2012 05:13 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote:
On May 25 2012 04:38 HiroPro wrote:

Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.



How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"


This is true in almost every single case where you find scum.

Unless scum are bad they don't leave massive trails that just lead back to them. Zealos is not a bad scum player in the least and if it were that easy to find scum we would've killed one yesterday.

Show nested quote +

And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.

"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"


You're simply asserting here that it's hard to see the scum agenda. Scum don't like making cases because they already have information about who is town and who is not. Town will at the very least try to scumhunt. Zealos made no real attempt at that on day 1. He admitted himself he thought 13 players were town and one town but less so. That's just a massive cop out from calling anyone scum, a huge shirking of responsibility. It's a sign he doesn't know who to call out for fear of being caught.

Finally, what playstyle? It's not a simple question because the underlying assumptions aren't even properly stated. How can you define a player's playstyle so simply? We don't even know what you're asking.

Show nested quote +

Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.


Going inactive and not scumhunting are about as antitown as you can get.

What I'm curious about is why you seem to assert that zelblade's inactivity is so much more incriminating of him than zealos. You haven't really justified anything you've said, just asserted it.




You're right, I wasn't actually trying to convince anyone here, just explaining my train of thought. Now keep in mind this is my first *TL* mafia and I don't know any of you. I don't know anyone's meta so my analysis is based entirely on what goes on in this thread and general knowledge about mafia games. Not knowing Zealos, to me he could be a confused or mediocre town player just as much as he could be scum. Zelblade, however, I feel he should be carrying a sign that says "please oh please god don't look at me I just want to live through this day so I can use my power at night".
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
May 24 2012 21:01 GMT
#852
I like zealos, he posts as if he has nothing to hide and like he is hiding nothing (if that makes sense). I don't think we should lynch him
There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 24 2012 21:05 GMT
#853
if he has nothing to hide why is it that whenever marvellosity makes a big post on him, zealos only responds to one small thing that he said?
Acid~
Profile Joined September 2010
Thailand442 Posts
May 24 2012 21:06 GMT
#854
On May 25 2012 05:40 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote:
On May 25 2012 04:38 HiroPro wrote:

Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.



How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"

And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.

"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"

Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.


I find this entire post deeply inconsistent. I have pointed out several times the scummy motivations for doing what Zealos did. Your justification on zelblade is so weak.

To the bold: so zelblade has some special power, and the best way to utilise it is... wait... it's coming.... I know! to say he's going to post reads and then not! That's sure to make him survive so he can use his powers!

-.-


Yeah, it's called stalling and so far it's working. He lived through day 1, and unless something happens it seems like he'll live through day 2. Look at it this way, let's assume that the Z's are both scum. Do you think they're both vanilla? If not, which one of them is more likely to have a special role?
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
May 24 2012 21:06 GMT
#855
On May 25 2012 05:58 Acid~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 05:13 wherebugsgo wrote:
On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote:
On May 25 2012 04:38 HiroPro wrote:

Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.



How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"


This is true in almost every single case where you find scum.

Unless scum are bad they don't leave massive trails that just lead back to them. Zealos is not a bad scum player in the least and if it were that easy to find scum we would've killed one yesterday.


And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.

"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"


You're simply asserting here that it's hard to see the scum agenda. Scum don't like making cases because they already have information about who is town and who is not. Town will at the very least try to scumhunt. Zealos made no real attempt at that on day 1. He admitted himself he thought 13 players were town and one town but less so. That's just a massive cop out from calling anyone scum, a huge shirking of responsibility. It's a sign he doesn't know who to call out for fear of being caught.

Finally, what playstyle? It's not a simple question because the underlying assumptions aren't even properly stated. How can you define a player's playstyle so simply? We don't even know what you're asking.


Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.


Going inactive and not scumhunting are about as antitown as you can get.

What I'm curious about is why you seem to assert that zelblade's inactivity is so much more incriminating of him than zealos. You haven't really justified anything you've said, just asserted it.




You're right, I wasn't actually trying to convince anyone here, just explaining my train of thought. Now keep in mind this is my first *TL* mafia and I don't know any of you. I don't know anyone's meta so my analysis is based entirely on what goes on in this thread and general knowledge about mafia games. Not knowing Zealos, to me he could be a confused or mediocre town player just as much as he could be scum. Zelblade, however, I feel he should be carrying a sign that says "please oh please god don't look at me I just want to live through this day so I can use my power at night".


what exactly has zelblade done (other than lurking) that has said that?

Just out of curiosity
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
May 24 2012 21:07 GMT
#856
hit the post button a little too quick to re-do

I like zealos, he posts as if he has nothing to hide and like he is hiding nothing (if that makes sense). I don't think we should lynch him

I think acid is fairly similar in style so I don't really want to lynch him either.

I think hiropro is unusual and compensating for something with his aggression

I think zelblade is scum and more people should be on him

I think froggy and katina are blending in well and would make great vig targets

I think marv is overconfident, but this seems to be par the course of his town meta

I don't know if tunk is scum or stupid, but I dont think I'd be willing to lynch him today to find out

There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Acid~
Profile Joined September 2010
Thailand442 Posts
May 24 2012 21:09 GMT
#857
On May 25 2012 05:36 Navillus wrote:
To clarify I was referring to Zelblade when I said "haven't looked into him yet". I think I saw Marvel's read earlier looking at that... now. Okay I see it, he says he probably shouldn't have included you, that's not a very complete explanation of his thoughts on you, I'm not saying I think he thinks you're town, I'm saying I want to know all of what he thinks on you.

I didn't respond to your response first because as I think I pointed out somewhere it's rarely useful to get into an argument with the person you're accusing on whether they're scum, you're obviously not going to get them to concede anything and frankly I think VE/WBG and Hiro/Zealos had that ground covered, we didn't need another two players going back and forth on each other.

The purpose of this post isn't to make a case on you it's to look at other people and what they say on you, hence the question at the end, I'm curious as to whether the reason your case didn't gain much traction is because you're scum or because better townie's looked and don't think you're scum. (honestly I was leaning to the second one, that's why I asked two people who I think are town, if I thought it was more likely you being scum I would have asked my scum reads because that puts them in an awkward position if you are scum)

I said you were a stronger read than the other two in part because I'm slow to give up my reads (probably a problem with my play) and in part because if I had phrased it a lot less confidently it would have had even less of an impact. I'm explaining this all now because I admit I did like your response and it pushed you away from a scum read for me and after making that post I actually looked over you again (I noticed what Marvel said a little bit after making that post actually) and between your response and posts since I felt less scummy on you.

So if you're town then Acid I have a question for you, is your biggest scumread still Zelblade? Where would you place Zealos right now? Also what do you think of Froggy?


I have to say I'm kinda torn between the Z's. I'm leaning hard on scum for Zelblade, and let's say 60-40 scum for Zealos after WBG and marvel's replies (up from 50-50).

I'm gonna go read up on froggy and I'll get back to you on that.
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
May 24 2012 21:10 GMT
#858
Marvel first at the beginning he was doing his whole flavor text thing which I really didn't see as alignment indicative, if anything town would probably be more willing to do it because scum would be afraid of drawing attention and everyone yelling at them to stop, but then where I started to think he was town was when people had a problem with him he continued to do it but also made sure to make his reads clear and explicit as the game went on, I don't think scum would do this as once enough people were accepting it or not lynching him over it I think he was in the clear, policy lynches rarely happen day 1 and almost never day 2, but he continued to be clear with what he was saying.

Then when he posted all of his reads I agreed with many of them and just the thought process behind them seemed townie.

The biggest thing now though is that he stopped with the flavor to try to get VE and WBG to stop fighting. Scum would have no reason to do this, first most scum would (and probably did) just stay out of that fight in general seeing as it was making the thread more confusing and scum-hunting more difficult. They could sit behind the excuse that it was the two vets and they know more or should work it out or something, but Matt has an even better excuse, he could have ignored it or thrown some useless flavor at it and if anyone asked him about it later he could say he did what he could (which because it would just be some flavor text probably wouldn't fix anything) and no one would blame him as most people accepted the flavor at this point. But instead he decides that doing what's best for town is more important and stops with the flavor text, this is big because one he's helping town in the first place by calming the fight and two by stopping the flavor text he's making himself more vulnerable and easier to read, I think if scum took the gambit to post like that at the beginning they wouldn't be willing to give up the advantage of being harder to read so soon at all.
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
May 24 2012 21:11 GMT
#859
On May 25 2012 06:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
if he has nothing to hide why is it that whenever marvellosity makes a big post on him, zealos only responds to one small thing that he said?

maybe he realizes that his answer would be the same regardless of alignment and that better things can be conversed about... or maybe because he doesn't give a shit about the case against him and posts on other things... or a different reason that i do not know

I don't care about his lack of defense, I care about his reads and what he has posted
There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Nova_Terra
Profile Joined March 2012
Switzerland1190 Posts
May 24 2012 21:11 GMT
#860
On May 25 2012 05:38 froggynoddy wrote:
Up until Mouldy flipped town I felt that N_T was just playing aggressively. though badly and I pretty much had a null read on him. When Mouldy flipped town however and NT, almost schizophrenically one might say, toned down the aggression I felt like he had a scum agenda. Though we can be somewhat excused him from voting for Mouldy he made very little attempt to find scum apart from his frankly pathetic attack on myself. Optimally as a townie he should have pushed for whoever he felt was most scum rather than wait for a bandwagon to form on Mouldy and just hop on last minute.

However when he was pressured to make a case from Marv who does he pick? Katina. Probably the easiest case to write as even when she is town she lurks like crazy. It seems like N_T desperately needed a case (see my case on Grush in LIV when I was encouraged by scummate to write a case). Note that similar reasoning could be applied to Hiro, hence my mentioning him quite a few times.

I didn't vote for Mouldy due to not having been able to post since lynch time and his lacklustre play had not occurred when I went inactive.

thats okay that you have your little ideas and "optimal posting"
meanwhile I'll push my biggest scumread regardless if you criticize my case for being against someone you deem easiest to make a case on or not
Simply the fact that the case is an "easy one" and its so hard to get a group on her makes me think that shes even more likely scum
Proud supporter of the Basking Rootwalla
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