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On May 01 2012 09:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Hey Cephiro, if you yourself say you aren't doing anything productive, then how are you a useful townie? Also, why are you so quick to call gonzaw out as tunneling you when he's only been talking about you for two pages of the thread? That's hardly tunneling, it's pressure, and you're reacting very badly to it. Why don't you want to be talked about so badly? Do you have some secret reason for needing to avoid scrutiny?
... Really, I'll make sure the next game I join has a reading and english comprehension test before entering.
As for trying to answer more seriously, you are right, I am probably not the most useful townie right now. Does that make me scum? No, it doesn't. There are many others that are not being useful in the way you want them to. Are they also all scum as well? I say tunneling because he admit he would be happy to tunnel if so needed, and tunneling is something you shouldn't do in any circumstances.
Although, I guess each and every one of us have our own opinions and limits about what is pressuring and what is tunnelling.
You can make cases on me every single minute for all I care, I'll respond each of them if that's what is required to get the fact I am a townie into those thick heads of yours. Why I don't want to be accused with bad cases one after another that are further continued with confirmation bias and exaggeration? Because it's a waste of good town (or scum) effort that could be directed to something useful.
As for having secret reasons, sure, I'll come out of the closet since you all keep asking for my secret reasons. I am a vigilante, I breadcrumbed it when I was talking to Ace about how guns still work. Satisfied?
You don't think I'm being serious about claiming vig? Why not? Standard D1 play no?
+ Show Spoiler +If you take the claim seriously, do me a favour and get yourself lynched.
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On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:
The "dominating PM-land" and the "hidden shit that will end the world" are obviously hyperboles. The thing is that you seem to think that you can abstain from posting in the thread just because PMs exist, and that makes it impossible to do anything for people not in the PM-loop (whether it exists or it doesn't exist and you are bluffing).
I made the "horrible case" because you weren't contributing, you refused to give out scumreads when asked, and you were very aggressive against all plans being mentioned (and of course, because you weren't "productive").
Okay then: what are you doing in PM land?
Are you pressuring people? Asking for reads, or giving them yourselves?
Why don't you want to post anything in the thread? Why won't you post reads in the thread? Why won't you pressure people in the thread?
Why do you want to be "excused" and want me to "concentrate on someone else" and let you live til lategame just so I can "analyse your play later"?
If you are trying to make a serious case, then stop using hyperboles. Does it look like I am abstaining from posting? When I am online I am constantly responding to anything going on as I read it, how about you try to blame some of the real lurkers of that? And yeah, sure, I'm just bluffing about everything. In reality I am here sitting on my ass, trying to make a record on how many cases I can get on myself as townie without dying.
You are twisting my words AGAIN here. You keep exaggerating and lying, if you keep doing it I see no reason to respond to you anymore. You claim I have refused to give out my _scum_reads when asked. That is false. All I have refused is that I did not give any of my reads to syllo. Do you have a problem with that? If you think I've been aggressive so far, then you clearly don't know my play at all, which is why your metagaming arguments are even more useless than they ever could be.
I am doing several things in PM-Land, which of certain are none of your concern. I can say I am both asking and giving opinions and reads, but I see no reason to tell you more.
Your last paragraph is a copy-paste with a few new words from earlier posts of yours. Stop making up the same lies all over and over again. I am not going to respond to the same questions five times if you haven't learned to read.
Here's a free tip: You don't make a proper case by asking same questions over and over again until they are annoyed and can't be assed to answer it for the 5th time.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:
How is it scrubbed off?
Please: if someone thinks my case against Cephiro is total crap, please state so and state why
I make a case against you and you instantly discredit me, turn aggrressive against me and basically misdirect everything I'm saying.
Why don' t you thoroughly explain why my case is horrible and can be scrubbed off? Please I'm waiting.
Also wtf? (at the bolded bit)
What does that have anything to do with what we are discussing?
How is it not? From my point of view you are just repeating same points over and over, exaggerating, unconciously (or on purpose but pretending not to) using confirmation bias. And you keep attacking me only when there are several other players that do many of the aforementioned things in a worse manner than I.
I don't need to discredit you. All I am saying your case on me is horrible so far, which in my opinion it is. No need to misdirect. All I'm saying is do everyone a favour and make one proper case on me once you have more material, rather than posting the same questions over and over again and pretending to be a retard and not understanding my answers, or just skipping them altogether. If you were properly reading my posts, you wouldn't even ask questions such as your confusion about my bolded part.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:
So you don't have any "pre-made" cases on anyone, you are not making cases on anyone and you don't feel you have any reads worth contributing...
...then what are you waiting for?
Are you really justifying your play by saying "yep, I don't have anything to contribute so I'm not doing anything".
That's scummy as shit.
And take the bolded bit, again totally misdirection and strawman. I never asked you to make a super complex plan to kill all 6 scum instantly, I (or rather other people) asked for your reads and thoughts on what's happening, and asked you to contribute more (or rather accused you of not doing that).
You are going to tell me that "no-on does such at this state of the game"?
I have reads, but there is no point in it for me to share them at this point, as I do not have enough evidence to back it up.
I'd rather wait a moment longer and make a proper case, rather than you who are grabbing at every single small straw and trying to make something out of it. The last part was simply the same exaggeration you keep using, I wanted to see if you'll call me out for something you are constantly doing yourself.
Also, if you didn't misunderstand my messages on purpose, you would clearly understand that the bolded sentence was refering to the exaggerated line just before it, basically: No-one provides certain all scum with certainty at this point of the game. Feel free to prove me wrong however.
On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:
I may have chosen the word "tunneling" bad, but the point still stands.
You want me to "concentrate" on someone else and "drop" this case against you...just because?
You say you are an "useful townie" and use that as evidence for why my case is horrible and I should turn my attention off you.
Can't you see how stupid that is?
CAN YOU PLEASE STOP TWISTING MY WORDS EVERY FUCKING TWO SENTENCES YOU MAKE?
If you want a proper case, don't twist things as to how you see them, but look at them objectively. You're just wasting everyones time at the moment. Read my response to Wiggles if you still didn't find enough reasoning.
You are YET AGAIN asking me the SAME QUESTIONS for god knows how many times already.
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On May 01 2012 09:58 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
So instead of having a tantrum and screaming that you're a townie, why don't you show that you're a townie by doing something useful? Your response to Gonzaw's case so far is to yell over and over that you're town. That's not going to convince anyone more than someone yelling that someone's scum over and over as a case.
Gonzaw said that you haven't done anything contributory. So, instead of doing something contributory, you waste a bunch of time having a back and forth with him. If his case is so horrible, and you're town, then why are you so worried about it? You say it won't stick, but instead of ignoring it, it looks like you're putting all your effort into fighting it. That doesn't seem like it fits to me. Instead, it looks like you feel inherently guilty and so you feel the need to address it.
Also, you say you're going to keep responding to cases to convince people you're town, but doing so does nothing to convince anyone of anything. You can refute what Gonzaw says, or show his case is bad, but that in no way shows that you're actually town, just that Gonzaw's case is weak.
So, if you want people to think you're town, give them a reason to think so! It's pretty simple, but you don't seem to get it. Crying that you're town doesn't make it so, playing for the town does. Your reactions to Gonzaw are just making you look scummy to me.
Well, since you clearly know how to prove oneself as townie, as I believe at this point of the game you are confirmed town to everyone, would you please tell me how I should respond to that case? I've done more than yell over and over that I'm town, but if his case consists of yelling me scum over and over, why should I put any more effort in countering his case? If he is a townie, he should understand by now that repeating the same points over and over is not a proper case.
Who says I'm worried? For all I care you can start making scum cases on me too. I just have a habit of answering accusations instead of running away or trying to sidestep them. I have nothing to be afraid of, why should I not defend myself?
Do you think it would look better if I just ignored all your cases on me? Now that would make me look really towny wouldn't it? By refuting Gonzaw's case I am trying to get him to understand that he needs to step up his play as town if he wants to catch scum. Although if he's the scum, I guess that effort is all in vain.
If you think I'm scummy, well, that's your problem for being on the wrong track. Maybe you'll see the light at some point.
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On May 01 2012 10:07 gonzaw wrote:
About Cephiro:
Omg this is the Toad incident all over again.
Okay, I won't argue more with you and this is the only thing I'll say:
Cephiro is not posting any reads, contributing at all, and is only trying to argue the hell out of me right now and clog up the thread instead of addressing the issues I mentioned
So town, read this, read Cephiro's posts, and tell me what you think; I won't clog the thread up any more with this stupid back and forth Cephiro is making
I addressed every issue that you pointed out. If you really can't read worth that, that's not my problem.
Poor townies that end up wasting their time on reading all that crap. So gonzaw, you claim that I have not addressed the issues you've mentioned, but you've sidestepped every question I've posed you, such as why are you not pressuring others that are guilty of the same things, maybe in an even worse manner? Such as your jab at Ace which didn't even get any kind of response really.
Although, you'd do everyone a favour if you just stepped back and thought about things for a while instead of trying to convince everyone I am scum.
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On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote:
@Cephiro: If one of my issues I want you to address is "Cephiro is not posting any scumreads", then you have not addressed it at all, since you haven't posted any scumreads yet
I have answered this question several times. I will post my scumreads in thread once I have more evidence to back it. Unlike you, I don't feel like going around blaming everyone for whatever my little mind could come up with. I have already had multiple discussions about my reads with people via PM. I consider PMs a very good way of sharing opinions about your reads before working on a proper case on them.
The people that have asked me for my reads in PM have mostly received them, instead of crying out loud here in the thread asking for scumreads without evidence. Do you really want me to post scumreads without backing them up that bad?
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote:
About your question:
"Why are you not pressuring others that are guilty of the same things?"
What is that supposed to mean? I think chaoser is scum and I pressured him. I am suspicious of wbg and I pressured him.
I don't really think Ace is that suspicious (because he played similarly in Space Station Mafia), but he doing jack shit at all is still worrying.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 09:44 gonzaw wrote:At chaoser, wherebugsgo and shit:Really? You won't even post original content? Here: + Show Spoiler +On April 30 2012 18:14 gonzaw wrote:
@syllogism: Maybe we can have a plan for using the Round B votes as well.
For instance, if we unanimously decide that Player X should be lynched (and he's eligible to be lynched of course), then we can do this:
Player 1-Gives player nº2 5 votes
Player 2-Gives player n3 5 votes
...
Player X-does whatever he wants
Player X+1-Gives player nºx+2 5 votes
..
Last player- Gives player nº1 5 votes
Players not in Round B vote whoever they want but not X.
That way, the only player lynched will be player X and all the rest will be saved.
However this depends on people unanimously deciding to lynch player X and following the plan, which I doubt will happen.
We can come up with other things when the time comes, since it also depends on how many people are in Round B.
Speaking of which syllo, what do you think about the plans regarding Round A being discussed at the moment?chaoser, will you respond to the cases made against you? Will you contribute anything at all other than bickering about the plans? Really, chaoser, Ace, wherebugsgo, Cephiro, VisceraEyes, etc are only just bickering and bickering about the plans, and ignoring everything else said to them or happening in the thread. Surely all of you can't be mafia at the same time right? That would be too easy. So please start contributing and trying to hunt scum instead of just repeating the same "oh oh but you can't know who is in the majority! lol hoho" crap over and over again.
Is that what you call "pressuring wbg"? Also, can you please stop trying to be super-clever and metagaming, all you do is bring up stuff that people did in PREVIOUS GAMES. Read THIS GAME instead. Also, nice wishy-washy contradiction. "I don't think Ace is suspicious because of his meta, but it is still worrying." <-- So are you concerned of him or not?
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote:
Now I ask you this question:
"Why do you want me to pressure other players and not you?"
I have replied this question several times as well. Why do you keep asking the same questions over and over again?
Final time: Because you are wasting your time on me if you are a townie.
On May 01 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote:
So now you OMGUS? *sigh*
Why wouldn't you post it in the thread if you thought I'm scum?
I said it before, this is just like that Toad incident. I called him out of not contributing and not caring about the game and he spent like 5 days tunneling me and arguing with me and yet not addressing what I was accusing him from, and ended up FoSing me saying things like "you will die tomorrow" without any reasoning whatsoever
I think you are doing the same thing.
So if your play makes me suspicious it's omgus? You do realize that making a case on someone to distract others is something scum could very well do, which is why your point of OMGUS is just a clever way to sidestep accusations if you were scum.
Why I'm not posting here if I think you are scum? Because your filter is full of crap. There's nothing to separate you from a horrible townie or an pain-in-the-ass-annoying scum to me so far. Once I've got enough proof in my opinion to validate you as either, I'll post. As I've said multiple times before, I don't feel the need to go all "OMG HE MADE A TYPO, SCUMSLIP" on everyone about every smallest thing. I find one proper case much better than three horrible ones.
I find it funny how you are trying to turn it the other way around though, making a comparison to Toad tunneling you, trying to make it look like I am the one that tunnels you, when I've yet to go as far to say I am suspicious of you for constantly pushing a case that poor?
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On May 01 2012 10:43 gonzaw wrote:
Cephiro, what will you answer this Round A? YES or NO?
None of your concern. I have sent in my answer already.
On May 01 2012 10:35 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
A) Ignoring it if it's really that "horrible"
B) Pointing out where I've actually been doing useful things or scumhunting
C) Showing that I'm capable of scumhunting by actually joining relevant discussion in the thread
As I just finished saying, if you think his case is so bad, why are you putting so much effort into arguing with him? It's not serving any useful purpose as compared to say, spending your time looking for scum or doing pretty much anything else. Instead, it's an excuse to shit up the thread and look like you're doing something when you're not.
A) In my opinion no town player should ignore even bad cases made on them. You shouldn't use the quality of an case as an excuse to escape defending yourself, a real townie would have no need for that.
B&C) Done and done. If I however was to post a small case on someone right now, don't you think I'd get more tunneling for "trying to sway the attention away from me?"
I don't mind being in the center of the spotlight at all, it's just I feel sad for the townies that actually might waste their time in vain being deluded.
The rest of your post is mainly bringing up B & C further, which I have already responded to how I will act to multiple times. If you're not fine with it, then keep crying or get me killed.
I sincerely hope you two are not townies. -_-
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On May 01 2012 10:51 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Its day 1, I'm comfortably ignoring all of that cephiro / gonzaw have typed so far.
If someone could make a TL:DR ?
Or is it just : I THIKN YOUR MAFIA
NO I THINK U R
forever el fin ?
TLDR:
Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM! BECAUSE X"
Cephiro: "NO I'M NOT BECAUSE Y"
Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X"
Cephiro :"NO I'M NOT BECAUSE Y"
Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X"
Cephiro: "CAN YOU JUST STFU AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL?"
Gonzaw: "CEPHIRO IS SCUM BECAUSE X"
Cephiro: "WHATEVER"
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Okay, after really hitting my head in the wall after reading your latest post (and boy that hurt!), I ask you of one thing.
Make one more post, which contains all the relevant things you want me to answer.
After seeing you try to rely on meta that badly, I've lost hope considering you, so I don't want to continue jabbering this any further than needed. Make one short post (or PM), I'll respond, and we'll leave it at that.
FYI: I voted in such manner that I should be in the majority, I have no fear of being in majority. You seem to like the idea of hiding behind Palmar's forgiveness though?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 01 2012 11:09 gonzaw wrote:Meta is a very effective tool. Most people use it very badly and just say things like "Oh, he was active in that game when he was town, he's inactive right now so he's scum". You have to analyze behaviour and motivation when you use meta. Here is your filter from DF2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324050&user=183812You can instantly find differences. For instance, you are calm and analytical. In this game you are overcome by "emotion", you are very aggressive and you don't have a focus on things, you just cling on to something (arguing with me for instance) and stay with it for the rest of the game. When people accuse you (syllogism for instance) and start shitting on you you keep your cool. Now someone FoSes you for the first time and you go on a rampage. In that game you obviously care about the game. You post your thoughts every once in a while to keep up with discussion, and you do it in a straight manner without misdirecting or anything. Here you don't care about discussion either. You started shitting on people for pointing out plans. Then when people want your reads you tell them you won't post shit. Then when someone takes notice of this and FoSes you you flip your shit and tunnel the hell out of him, without even caring about other things from the game. For instance, you don't care about the most important part: finding scum.
"Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum."
Do you see what you are doing here? You do realize it doesn't even take a skilled person in psychology to fake that, or act in another way on purpose?
As for your final question, my final answer: I will give my reads when I have enough content to back it up.
If you think I am scummy for not going around pointing fingers when I am unsure myself... well, I'll let everyone make their conclusions of that. As I said before, I find making one proper case more useful rather than make 3 jabs at different people without anything to back it up.
That is all.
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On May 01 2012 12:02 gonzaw wrote:
"Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum."
Even though both sentences have the same structure, they are not the same.
Being "analytical and calm, taking pressure calmly, caring about the game and posting thoughts in the thread constantly and driving discussion" is not the same as just being "inactive".
Argh. I already said you don't need to point fingers or make cases. Post your thoughts!
Also, you are not Incognito or those guys that lurk all D1/N1 and then spout 10 gigantic cases in 1 post. You take part of discussion and post thoughts, just like in Death Factory, so I don't believe you saying "Oh I don't like posting reads/thoughts in the thread until I have a gigantic awesome case to make".
[/QUOTE]
My main point in the sentence above, is that you are simply thinking that I am of the opposite alignment as before, because I do not work exactly in the same way as I did in DF2.
Now, wouldn't mafia games be quite boring if it was that easy, such as people would always be the same when town and when scum?
To the last paragraph, don't think you know me... all you know about me is how I decided to play in 3 games of mafia in TL + some irc chatter, you won't even get to my momentarily thoughts with that. 
Although I like where your reasoning is going slowly. I'll post my thoughts when I get back, away for now.
Also, 10:8.... funny isn't it?
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On May 01 2012 12:02 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +Cephiro wrote:
"Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum." Even though both sentences have the same structure, they are not the same. Being "analytical and calm, taking pressure calmly, caring about the game and posting thoughts in the thread constantly and driving discussion" is not the same as just being "inactive". Argh. I already said you don't need to point fingers or make cases. Post your thoughts!Also, you are not Incognito or those guys that lurk all D1/N1 and then spout 10 gigantic cases in 1 post. You take part of discussion and post thoughts, just like in Death Factory, so I don't believe you saying "Oh I don't like posting reads/thoughts in the thread until I have a gigantic awesome case to make".
My main point in the sentence above, is that you are simply thinking that I am of the opposite alignment as before, because I do not work exactly in the same way as I did in DF2.
Now, wouldn't mafia games be quite boring if it was that easy, such as people would always be the same when town and when scum?
To the last paragraph, don't think you know me... all you know about me is how I decided to play in 3 games of mafia in TL + some irc chatter, you won't even get to my momentarily thoughts with that.
Although I like where your reasoning is going slowly. I'll post my thoughts when I get back, away for now.
Also, 10:8.... funny isn't it?
EBWOP: Structure fixed. See you soon.
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+ Show Spoiler [My Round B Vote List] +--------------------People I would prefer my votes going to: VisceraEyes Meapak_Ziphh Liquid`Sheth --------------------People I am ok voting for: Radfield --------------------People I can vote for if really necessary: Mr. Wiggles EchelonTee --------------------People I will not be voting for today: prplhz chaoser sandroba + Show Spoiler [If I was able to vote for the minority] +
--------------------People I would prefer my votes going to:
Bloodyc0bbler
wherebugsgo
--------------------People I am ok voting for:
Foolishness
gonzaw
--------------------People I can vote for if really necessary:
Palmar
Ace
--------------------People I would not be voting for today:
Katina
syllogism
On May 01 2012 16:31 syllogism wrote:
Don't give Cephiro anything until he posts his suspicions in public and explains why that information couldn't be made public before. It's quite difficult to believe town cephiro genuinely believes that sharing his scum reads in public is detrimental and his excuses are just making him look worse.
You're way too expectable. There's not much of you I haven't been able to know you'd do in advance.
If you had spent any time reading, I have explained "why that information couldn't be made public". It's not about not being able to make them public, it's about not wasting everyone's time on pointing fingers without anything to back it up.
You'll have my current opinions soon enough, although my vote lists should be able to tell you something already.
About voting: I am fine with spreading my votes, or concentrating them on one person mostly, depending on how the persons I find trustworthy would like to act.
I'd like to point out the possibility of voting in "circle", in smaller groups or pairs. For example, let's say everyone agreed that Radfield & Meapak should in no circumstances be lynched today, they could be allowed to simply vote each other to reach the 5 votes. I'd personally suggest groups of 3 & pairs.
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On May 01 2012 21:42 syllogism wrote:
No, all you have provided so far is a completely nonsensical explanation and if everyone followed your logic, the game would be impossible to analyze. No one cares if you don't have sufficient evidence yet, just knowing your suspicions and having some sort of basic justification for them is sufficient. Talking to you appears to be a waste of time, however.
Well you seem to be in a hurry. Running out of time for something? If talking to me is a waste of time, then you might as well not. So you think that no-one cares if I go pointing fingers at every smallest suspicion I have? I think I would have covered like 80%+ of the players in that case. Very useful no?
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More stuff later, but on a quick glance I just have to say a few things:
VE - Stop acting like you are dead already. If you think the scum can get rid of you that easily, then I'd almost say we're better off without you. All it requires is for one or two townies to show the middle finger to scum and mass vote you. Tada, you didn't die. 90 votes = 10 votes and you are safe with 100% certainty. I am fairly sure that in reality 7-8 should be enough as well.
To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts.
I hope someone hosts a game where I can be a "meta vig", and kill anyone doing decisions based on meta. Do you all think you can outsmart players just with meta? I thought the experienced players here knew better than that.
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On May 02 2012 02:01 Palmar wrote:
why do you think there are ways of re-entering the game?
also, thanks for making my job of killing you easier by being obvscum
By the way, "King". I recommend that you're a bit more careful with your current allies, it seems you are leaking information somewhat easily..
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On May 02 2012 02:12 Palmar wrote:
Tell me what information I'm leaking.
I only have one person that actually knows everything I'm thinking/doing, and I have very little information about the game or anything that's happening beyond what I've posted in the thread.
If you're unable to back up the statement that information is leaking from me, you are lying.
Now tell me, what leaked, and who gave you that information.
You shouldn't trust people too much, this is the Liar Game after all...
I'm perfectly fun with you thinking I am lying. After all, making you obvious to certain things would ruin the fun would it not?
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On May 02 2012 02:12 Palmar wrote:
Tell me what information I'm leaking.
I only have one person that actually knows everything I'm thinking/doing, and I have very little information about the game or anything that's happening beyond what I've posted in the thread.
If you're unable to back up the statement that information is leaking from me, you are lying.
Now tell me, what leaked, and who gave you that information.
You shouldn't trust people too much, this is the Liar Game after all...
I'm perfectly fine
with you thinking I am lying. After all, making you obvious to certain things would ruin the fun would it not?
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EBWOP: Loving my netstick. <3 Mistakenly doubleposted when trying to fix the typo as I wasn't sure if it had sent already.
@ Wiggles: Amusing message by someone that is bickering to others about scumhunting in thread. I see you like gonzaw's mentality, just in a worse manner. Take contact with everyone, but don't even really pressure anyone, unless you can sheep.
You talk a lot, but you make very few main points to go with what you say.
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On May 02 2012 03:01 Palmar wrote:
That's not how it works.
You make an inane statement that undermines the work I'm doing, so I demand you say what the fuck you mean by that. I don't trust people too much, if I do, I need to know.
It makes no sense from town perspective to not out whatever information you may have about my strategy and my allies, you're intentionally creating confusion with nothing to back it up.
So no, I want whatever you're implying you know to be obvious, you're not getting away with trolling like that without explaining yourself.
I'm fine with killing you today, and I have the influence to get it done.
I have in no way undermined the work you claim you are doing. I just said you might want to be a bit more careful, that's all.
Are you sure you have the influence to get it done? If you want to dig your own grave, go ahead and try. I dare you.
You can be stubborn and think what you want, all I'm saying you should be careful whom you co-operate with. Preferably a bit more than so far.
Also, just to dare you a bit more: Who knows? Maybe I am just testing to see how you react, maybe I am talking all bullshit, or maybe I hold some information that you might not want me to know.
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I have caught up on the thread, and I am going to answer to people that have PMed me in my absence, as well as first defend accusations that I've got yet again, and then move on to talk about the voting.
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EPT
