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On April 13 2012 07:08 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:56 imallinson wrote: I think the votes so far are:
Yomi (1): Kharad trumpetarm (1): imallinson Dittert (2): Broodking, Yomi Xatalos (1): Hiro vonKlaust (1): Xatalos This is what I am talking about. A Mafia could put their votes anywhere and change the tide of the vote. Dittert and trumpetarm please start to contribute to the discussion. Hiro I want to hear more about your vote against Xatalos In theory I agree with you. However, we are 25 hours away from the deadline. Relax.
I do agree with a 12 hour soft deadline for voting to see where we stand. So 1PM CET tomorrow (13 hours from now).
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Okay, I have to spend all morning doing bureaucratic crap. This post is mainly a throwaway post. I just wanted to get this opinion out there:
HiroPro's posting is either scum or insultingly bad town. He trumps up random reasons for thinking someone is scummy, despite having done the exact same thing himself. When caught out his excuse is that he cannot look at timestamps. He moves his vote around without explanation and seems more interested in creating strife within town than finding scum. A decent analysis when I get back.
I am no longer as firmly in the willz is town camp. The way he has been posting at night set my alarmbells a ringing. Will have to take a better look in a couple of hours.
Sorry, that's all I have time for at the moment. Just wanted this out there.
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Okay, the Brazilean consulate is the most mindnumbing, stupid bunch of paperpushing bureaucrats in the universe. RAAAAAGE. Monday I get to go again :S
So far I have FoS'd Dittert and Yomi. I am no longer as suspicious of Dittert as I find his participation during the night a bit better. I still don't understand his reads, but at least he seems to be trying to make reads and argue them. He also got Willz to post some interesting stuff, so I think there's better targets for now. That is not a freebie pass, Dittert. I agree with ArcticFox that you have to post more and explain your reads better.
My cursory reading this morning made me very suspicious of Hiro. I am taking a closer look at his filter, I think he might be just newbie town, as I do not see a scum motive behind his reasoning. He goes in the Dittert category. Here are my findings:
+ Show Spoiler [HiroPro's "case"] +On April 13 2012 01:16 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 15:57 Xatalos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The person I want to lynch the most right now is: ArcticFox. Here is what I got from his filter so far: On April 12 2012 08:34 ArcticFox wrote: Let's not waste Day 1. Too many times I've seen people say it's not important. We can find out plenty as long as everyone posts. Please be active so we don't waste our first lynch on a bored townie. The sooner everyone posts, the sooner we can get to the real scumhunting. On the surface this looks like friendly advice to fellow townies, but this is EXACTLY the kind of posting I did on A Game of Thrones Mafia as a Mafia Framer. His attitude seems like he wants to appear useful, but he doesn't really say anything useful - the opposite of actual townies who want to be useful, but don't care as much about their appearance. The overall feel I get from this post is "please don't lynch me, I'm being useful!" On April 12 2012 08:58 ArcticFox wrote: I hope our blues this game are as clever as you were that game, KB.
Discussion is good. Idle chat is not.
As you newer people confirm, please post shortly after with your thoughts on these policies as well. First of all: why discuss about blue roles at all? This is the same mistake I did in A Game of Thrones Mafia - we kept talking about blue roles in the Mafia chat, so subconsciously I mentioned possibilities about the blue roles even in the normal thread. And what do you mean with "idle chat is not good"? So far this "idle chat" has been very useful (certainly much more useful than silence or the trolling/flaming we had in A Game of Thrones Mafia...). Also, you keep mentioning policies, which is something Mafia loves to do - you can appear somewhat useful without actually contributing anything. On April 12 2012 09:21 ArcticFox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 Dittert wrote: Not RNG lynch... RNG proposed lynch. I was trying to gauge people's reactions to things. If we RNG and hit scum, surely at least 2 people will jump up to defend that person or risk losing one of their own. If no one really cares about killing that person, they're probably town. Verrrrry WIFOM reasoning. Be careful of that. It sounds logical, but discussing motive rarely leads anywhere. What if scum decides to bus? What if someone jumps up to defend because they think RNG is silly, or they have a blue read on him? This line of reasoning leads nowhere fast, and it's best to ignore it. You're tripping my scum-o-meter pretty hard right now. Got any better suggestions? There he goes again, talking about blue roles. It's too bad it probably ends now after I mention this, but I would have wanted to see how many times he can talk about blue roles / blue reads during the game, since this is the second time already in only 7 hours... And if you think Dittert is Mafia, why not vote for him or even put any real pressure on him? It looks like you just want to fake pressure an obvious target (a suspiciously acting townie) or put some distance between yourself and a fellow Mafia (if he gets lynched, you can claim you "pushed for his lynch" all along). On April 12 2012 10:28 ArcticFox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 10:17 HiroPro wrote:LaL seems to be a standard play. I'm all for lynching liars above all else. It sets a good tone that we won't allow scum to get away with it either. What do you mean by this? You say that lynching lying townies scares scum? I don't follow. I would prefer not to have to policy lynch at all, but liars and lurkers is a good place to start if we don't have any solid scumreads by the end of Day 1. So in short -- more people should post so we have more information to go on and can avoid a policy lynch. You look like you want to make a policy lynch, since you keep talking about policies, but still try to appear as if you "want" to lynch a Mafia player (if something too obvious comes along and you have to bus your teammate). I got a pretty solid Mafia read already in just a matter of hours, so this discussion is definitely not "useless"... ##Vote: ArcticFox I don't like this case at all. You start off by saying ArticFox's posting reminds you of your own posting as mafia in AGOT - this has no relevance at all; ArticFox isn't you - meta from another game with someone else playing is an awful reason to think someone is mafia. And policy discussion that early on with very few people online is perfectly normal. Show nested quote + I have a hard time figuring out the 3 Mafia from this back-and-forth action, but if we manage to find even one today, it should make it easy to figure out the rest tomorrow.
Why the sudden shift in tone? A few posts ago, you were 70 or 80 percent sure that ArticFox is mafia, in this same post you say that either yomi or Dittert is mafia, and yet at the same time you have a hard time figuring out who mafia is? You sound like a mafia member getting a bandwagon rolling and then jumping off before it crashes. ##Vote: Xatalos I agree that the ArcticFox case was bad. However, that does not make Xatalos scum. I pointed this out just before I went to bed. So far I was just unimpressed with Hiro's play. The problem came during the night, when he decided to switch his votes to vonKlaust: + Show Spoiler [Voteswitch] +On April 13 2012 07:11 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 07:01 Xatalos wrote: Just my luck... Right as I post, HiroPro decides to suddenly post. Well, what do you think about my latest post, HiroPro? Am I still your only Mafia read? I like the case against vonKlaust a hell of a lot better than the one you made against ArticFox. The whole "i'm confused thing in the beginning is slightly scummy, but the bigger thing against vonKlaust for me is that he that he says that Xatalos has "several potential scumslips", is his prime suspect, but then doesn't vote for him. Someone who doesn't back up their scum reads with a vote is looking around for support too much to be town. ##Unvote: Xatalos##Vote: vonKlaust Now I have to say that I am not a big fan of the case Xata made on vonKlaust either, but basically we have Hiro's suspicions of vonKlaust here:
1. vonKlaust applied pressure without voting. According to Hiro voting for your prime suspect is mandatory and not voting is scummy. This logic is bonkers. Voting is just a tool and so is not-voting. I have pointed this out a number of times in the thread so far. You have a different opinion? Fine, but at least take away from this that it is not a scumtell. If you want proof, I urge you to look at Xatalos' play on D1 in GoT mafia: he was perfectly happy to throw his vote all ways at once (and that was seen as a scumtell). A vote is a TOOL, not something you have to use when you are suspicious. The only thing you HAVE to do with your vote is use it once a day to decide the lynch. Everything else is optional.
2. vonKlaust thought Xatalos was town, but then switched and thought he was scum. Switching your suspicions is not a scumtell either. It is simply being open to new evidence.
We continue reading:
On April 13 2012 08:03 HiroPro wrote: Because the reason for me suspecting him was his bad case.....
Obviously if he posts an actual good case, he doesn't appear as mafia to me.
And the case against you has merit. I would also still like to know why you never voted for Xatalos if he was your strongest mafia read. Mafia members can't make good cases? That's bonkers. Mafia members can often make better cases than town, because they don't have to take into account that the person they are accusing might be town. They already know he's town (or in the case of bussing a buddy, scum) and can look through someone's filter with the most malevolent intentions. Townies, on the other hand, try to hunt scum without being malevolent and disregard things that, if blown up, look like giant scumslips. That's why it is important to make up your own mind, rather than just sheeping other people's opinions.
Most of the rest of his posts follow a similar reasoning. It is just plain wrongheaded and illogical. He jumps to conclusions about how mafia plays, which are almost invariably wrong. However, when reading through it all, I don't see malicious intent, just ignorance. HiroPro, I want you to give me something other than suspicions of vonKlaust. Please tell me who else you think is scum, with reasons.
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And the other thing I noticed during the night: willz. I really didn't like his discussion with Dittert and it made me go back to his filter. Note that up until I went to bed last night I thought he was quite townie. However, the more I read through his filter, the more convinced I am that he is not the townie willz I think he is.
Part I - The Non-Contribution His posts on April 12 can be summarized as this: shooting down policies (fine). While I personally find this productive, there's no reason scum would not take it upon himself to do this. It's a risk-free way of sounding like a townie.
We do note that he has promised a more aggressive meta than his play in Newbie V. I took a (brief) look at his filter in that game and found him to be quite open with his opinions and posting many cases against who he thought was scum. So far I have seen nothing like this kind of play. It has been far more defensive than anything else.
The first post that I didn't like came here: + Show Spoiler [Willz' shooting down of BroodKin…] +On April 13 2012 06:03 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is wiliz. He states that wiliz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote: Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). He also flat out claims a lie, that could've easily been a mistake (his post against yomi). He doesn't seem to want to follow the way of the town (we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to policy lynch). Overall I think he needs to put in better input for the amount of gunslinging he is doing. ##Vote: Dittert
What is this vote? You're going to vote him because he's a bad town and that's "usually mafia" ? Dittert's case against me is mostly OMGUS, it has no basis, and I don't need any defending and you don't need any other explanation other than he made a really bad case against me? Put more effort in your reasoning, Dittert is way too easy of a target, and I stand by my opinion that he's just a newbie town that had his idea shut down really hard and is scrambling to come up with something to contribute. Post your opinion on anyone else besides Dittert for your top scum picks, don't tunnel on him. What Willz does here is not contribute. Everybody can see that Dittert's case is bad. BroodKing is not defending Willz, he is accusing Dittert of inventing a shitty case to get out from under quite a bit of suspicion. Willz's stance here is an idea of what is to come: an extremely hostile play to shut people up and a rabid defense of Dittert. Sidenote: sometimes a bad case is just a bad case. Sometimes it's not. Everybody can make up their own mind and voice their opinion. willz' firing up into a rage over BroodKing here set my spidersense tingling.
His only contribution with reads on people comes here:
On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote: Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. There were no serious attempts to catch any blues in a blueslip(inadvertently outing their role through something they said). The discussion on policy lynching is now since dead, and no one has tried to bring it up again. Bringing a case on him based on this + his meta thinking behind of what Mafia would do based on his experiences from GoT makes for a fairly lackluster case. As long as he doesn't tunnel himself onto a single person, I'm fine with his activity and his reasoning otherwise (I also convinced him to take a look at imallinson which he overlooked)
I'm waiting on responses from at least half the thread, I'm not going to make a case based on this little posting, that's not going to convince anyone. I will have a case written up and posted at least 4-5 hours before deadline tomorrow(~1-2pm est), so that's enough time for discussion. Specifically, I'm calling out Yomi, BroodkingExe, HiroPro, imallinson, trumpetarm to post something, at least either their top town or scum read and their own opinions. I'm tired of seeing people pick on the easiest targets with little to no explanation. This is just really bad. He calls out the easiest targets in the thread as suspect of being scum... and then says it's bad play to call out the easiest targets with little to no explanation. He was being pressured into giving his reads and throws out the easiest names around (with the exception of Dittert, who he has taken into protective custody), with no explanation. Even I was duped into thinking this was a somewhat useful contribution, but really, it's not. It is a throwaway list by a scumster.
Interesting here:
On April 13 2012 06:40 willz22912 wrote: EBWOB : "I personally am giving a lot of people the benefit of the doubt for being a newb or having their first game." should be the correct sentence.
Acrofales, what do you want me to say currently before they respond? I see 5 lurkers and I could pick any of them for various reasons, I'm willing to be patient and catch them slipping. If you want to question me, ask me my opinion on one of your own reads. Why should I be the only one contributing, my opinion is no more important than any of yours because this is a team-game. I can't win the game single-handedly, in fact I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the first person killed by Mafia, so I have to make the cases I make ironclad, and make sure of my reads before I die. Well, if you had actually been contributing, this would be a valid point. However, so far you have seemed very reluctant to give anything away at all. 4-5 hours before the deadline is a perfect time to trump up a case on whoever is a likely town to be bandwagoned. At the moment I would much rather lynch you than one of our lurkers.
Part II - The Dittert Controversy Part I was something I noticed upon going through his filter. Part II was what made me want to take a good look at his filter in the first post. Particularly this post:
On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote: Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote: EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote: Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? BroodKing already pointed out what's wrong with this. It is an extremely defensive reaction to someone who nobody is taking seriously (sorry Dittert, but you really need to step up your posting). He is trying to drive a vote on you, because he thinks you're scum. Your overreaction in defense makes me think that he may be right.
If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you.
You are playing a very insidious game. In the first paragraph you shoot down Dittert's opinion without even responding. Now you try to make it out as if you are protecting him from the evil mislynch. I am not yet sold on Dittert's innocence or scummyness, but this behaviour is scummy: either you are protecting the poor noobie townie (for no good reason other than to look good), or you're protecting your scumbuddy. Two things I can't think of a town reason for doing: we don't coddle noobs, we leave them to improve or die.
You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not?
For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on?
Now that you've pulled Dittert's teeth it's easy to ask him for his opinions: nobody will listen anyway! You also twist his words. He actually gave some decent reasons for voting Yomi and it didn't read very OMGUSy to me. I agree that his town reads made me boggle.
BroodKing points out quite a bit of this. How does Willz respond? Not to the content. No, with a big fat OMGUS: + Show Spoiler [ Oh My God, BroodKing, yoU Suck!!!] +On April 13 2012 10:36 willz22912 wrote:BroodKingEXE, I've taken a look through your filter (and I suggest everyone do the same) you have very little constructive posts of substance, and you wasted the beginning of D1 talking about policies. You keep harping on the importance for town to have narrowed it down to 1-2 candidates very early, why should we give Mafia the opportunity to blend in and bandwagon on a likely lynch? I also highly disagree with this line of thinking: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:47 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 13 2012 06:44 willz22912 wrote:On April 13 2012 06:39 BroodKingEXE wrote: We have to be careful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. What do you mean by this? The idea of sharing scumlists is to build a consensus among town to reach a majority to successfully lynch someone. If multiple people think someone is scummy, there is a reason, and should be shared, even if it's misguided or incorrect because it builds/causes discussion. Mafia look at the scum lists and figure out who has the best sense of who they are. They then kill them You are trying to dissuade town from being transparent and posting their thoughts for fear of being a target by Mafia. I had this opinion too, why share your information so openly so early, but I learned from Gonzaw in Aperture Mafia that it's better to give 100% effort as town no matter if you die, in order to help the rest of the town figure out who's scum. Transparency and an active town is key to winning, you seem to be against this for fear of your own mortality, this is bad for town. So far you have managed to post numerous times about random things and calling out the lurkers, but you have yet to support any of your actions with evidence. You initially vote for Dittert and now you are willing to suddenly drop the vote based off 1 post? You are also willing to change your mind to Yomi, another candidate with multiple people voting for him and an easy lynch? What parts of his post do you specifically agree with when you say [quote= BroodKingEXE]You've put up some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. So far you've been just following people's thoughts and not posting your own or your own reasoning. Be more transparent. [/QUOTE] Sure, BroodKing's filter isn't the best out there, but he finally brings up a decent point and you respond by deflecting it. Classic scum play.
The non-contribution continues here with more muffling of Dittert's voice:
On April 13 2012 11:37 willz22912 wrote: How am I supposed to convince him he's on the right track, let him lynch me? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of each other? I can't prove to him that I'm town, I can't prove for everyone else with 100% certainty what alignment he is. Huh? Lets reconstruct: 1. Dittert is town and has a (rather harmless) case on willz 2. Willz goes apeshit defensive over it and tries to smother Dittert with the blanket of protection 3. Dittert keeps posting 4. Willz throws up his arms and says "what can I do?! Let him lynch me?"
This is nonsense. Firstly, there was no real danger you were going to get lynched here. You could just have gone through his case and dismantled it paragraph by paragraph. It would have been rather easy. Instead you play the dramaqueen card. WTF sir, wtf?!
The only people who know for sure are Mafia and a DT if we have one, but the DT can't use his ability until nighttime, so we can't even rely on that. What are you trying to show or prove by posting this?
Adding extra wifom. Even DT checks aren't guaranteed. There may be a framer and/or a godfather. The only people who are confirmed are dead people.
I'm trying to get Dittert to drop his suspicions on me, he continues to keep them and is progressively adding additional people into this conspiracy he alone sees. He thinks the Mafia team consists of myself, ArcticFox, and Yomi. He claims this because of his original theory against me (that no one else is willing to agree with), my actions towards defending ArcticFox from Xatalos and me calling out Yomi to post more?
Town needs to defend other town from mis-lynches if they feel it is a mistake. I don't particularly need to believe in Dittert, but I don't need him being lynched by everyone else because he was an easy lynch. Do you not agree with this? Do you not want someone to defend you if you are town? You are continuing to propose poor decisions on the part of town, adding to my suspicions of you.
Trolololol. If you wanted Dittert to drop his case you would address the case instead of trying to smother it. It's a pretty bad case, so it shouldn't have been that difficult. Now I want you to address this case, or will you try to smother me too?
Also @ BroodKingEXE, where's the response to this: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:42 willz22912 wrote:On April 13 2012 10:29 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote: Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote: EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote: Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. You are playing really poorly for town, I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us? The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own. Okay, let's waste some time then since we're both here. Do you think I'm scum, and do you agree with Dittert's suspicion of me? If so, please post why. I don't care about your opinion if you do nothing to support it, POST EVIDENCE. If you really think I'm scum, then go ahead and make a case. I'm trying to lead town to avoid lynching Dittert and he keeps posting things that will continue to get him lynched. Also what is this supposed to mean? The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. So how do you know who's mafia and who's opinion to ignore? Scumslipping perhaps? This is a team based game, we need to be working together, I want to work with him, but if he's going to continue being suspicious of me, I'm going to write him off as well as his opinions. You continue to dodge the question, do you seriously believe I am Mafia, if so, WHY. Don't keep posting comments on my posts if you're not going to do anything with them. How am I supposed to know who's really town and who's really Mafia, the answer is I don't. But I've seen mistakes like Dittert's play before, and I'm trying to convince others to ignore it, but if you've read the thread, Dittert was the #1 target for many people for his rng lynch proposal, and then for his followup case on me. I'm trying to get him to stop so he stops accruing suspicion, if I was Mafia, why wouldn't I let him continue to clog up the thread and then lynch him for being so suspicious like everyone else wanted to? This is quite an unfair question: he stated one post of yours was scummy, you dodged his post with an OMGUS and respond that you want him to post a case when he hasn't really accused you of being mafia at all. Here, I'll do it for him.
##vote: Willz22912
I challenge everybody to read through Willz filter twice: once when you "know" he's town and once when you "know" he's mafia. I guarantee that only the mafia one makes much sense.
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On April 13 2012 18:08 Xatalos wrote: So it looks like you think HiroPro is just a bad townie, Acrofales? What about my case on imallinson then? And what exactly was bad about my case on vonKlaust? I don't understand why he tries to act all confused, yet he seems to think I'm probably Mafia, without presenting any reasoning for his suspicion. Verdict's still out on imallison. I will look at your case in more detail, together with his filter, later. I don't consider him a high priority at the moment. If people really want to lynch him, I'll take a better look, but for now I want people focused on Willz, and to a lesser extent Yomi.
The reason I didn't like your vonKlaust case was because the noob card can have two explanations: scum using the noob defense, or an actual noob having no clue what to do in the game. I read through vonKlaust's filter and all I really got was the feeling of someone being genuinely confused by the game. Could be that he's a great actor, but I was inclined to believe him. The "confused/newbieness" was the only real point in your case. I agree that it's not good play. I just don't see any scum agenda in there.
I also thought that he was doing a good job of pricking through bullshit (which does not make him town, but at least makes him useful). I found his defense to your and HiroPro's cases sufficient. He pointed out the scummy part of your post so far. It set my alarmbells tingling too (as I pointed out earlier), but I disagree with his case. I like that he's starting to post his reads with reasoning and is vocal in his defense. I am opposed to a vonKlaust lynch.
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Willz, if you're town, now would be a great time to stop being scummy and post. I have to leave pretty soon.
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Ah shit. I knew this was going to happen. Go out, have some beers, come back and see willz' post and some other walls of text. This game never makes it easy for me. I have half an hour to make sense of this and vote for scum before beer + dinner + party pulls me away until tomorrow sometime. Cliffnotes would be helluva handy. Xatalos: you were happy Willz arrived, but haven't posted since. What do you think of him, his defense and his case?
Brb, reading his case and his defense.
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Ah shit. I haven't finished reading the thread and I have to go. I have no time to finish my analysis. I like willz's defense, but have not read yomi's stuff yet. I am sticking with this afternoon's vote because tipsy+rushed makes for a bad voteswitch.
If willz dies and he's town the so be it, I'll deal with the flak tomorrow. Switching now is just too much of a risk to take. Fridays are bad days for day endings.
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I'm awake and slightly sad at what happened yesterday. Mainly because I cannot find a way to use most of the information in any useful way. I obviously had the advantage of seeing BroodKing's flip before reading the reason why he was lynched. With hindsight I do understand his switch, but cannot really find a mob motive in any of the people jumping on his bandwagon: people surprised at his switch are clearly both mob and town... and not switching is also not a mob or town tell: even if Willz and Yomi are both scum, the bandwagon grew so fast and so obviously that scum could also hide in the non-switchers. So this lynch gives us essentially no information.
However, all of the goings-on yesterday have not cleared Willz nor Yomi in my mind. I find Dittert's post after the flip to be incredibly suspect too. I will post a better analysis just before the day deadline, so as not to help mafia in choosing their kill.
@Xatalos: if you actually looked at GoT mafia you would've seen I was pretty drunk on that friday too, lol. The only difference was that I came home in the evening and this time we went out afterwards for dinner + more drinks. I don't like what happened and wished I could've been here, but in the end I am not sure I would've acted any differently. I also see that my post was a bit ambiguous: I found willz's (initial) defense okay, but found his case on broodking lacking in substance. Of course, other people saw that and the reason broodking got lynched had nothing to do with willz's case anyway.
I don't find the possible presence of a mafia framer a good reason to not add a DT list. The framer will do what he does, and so will the DT. My giving a helping hand
@blues: I made a list, but found my advice to be so obvious that I don't think you should need it. I just want to urge you to use your own reads together with Incognito's advice for playing a blue role, which if you haven't read, you really should: clicky. Vigis: if you are unsure your shot will help town, hold onto it for N2.
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A vigi should not blithely announce his kill as there's no way of distinguishing that shit from a mafia kill until the kill flavours become clearer. Analyzing night kills is generally pointless anyway, so unless the vigi hits a mafia, we can't be sure it was a kill. Breadcrumbing the action so you can later confirm it was yours (if this is ever necessary) is something completely different and a much better way of doing it.
Breadcrumbing: hiding a very short description of your action in your post can be done in the following manner: first letter of every sentence, first letter of every paragraph, first letter of every word in a sentence (hard). Encoding it in random jibberish as if you're angry and giving the decypher key later. USE YOUR IMAGINATION: e.g. if you now post a string of random jibberish, everybody and their dog will know it's a breadcrumb for something uejkaddsaa You want to leave a trail that nobody can follow until you point out the key, at which point it is suddenly obvious (the more obvious after the key, the better). Also: don't breadcrumb your role, breadcrumb your actions.
Ways NOT to do it: MrZentor's block of code in GoT mafia (too obvious). Example of good breadcrumbs: Snarfs and prplhz in DFM2. Ignore my breadcrumbs in GoT mafia, because I was scum and didn't have to worry about mafia poking through my blatantly obvious crumbs.
If you don't feel up to breadcrumbing, keep your info to yourself. The only action that *might* be worth revealing is a vig shot, and imho, that is unnecessary too.
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@Xatalos: WTF. You're not proved anything at all until you're dead. Roleblocks don't stop mafia KP. You also just roleclaimed green, btw.
The rest of your post is one massive wall of wifom and completely pointless. Just. Don't. Okay?
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Once again. Stop assuming that claiming a vigi shot is a good way for a vigi to get town credit. Mafia can use this easily to gain town credit too (at the very least until N2, when kill flavours may not line up).
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/facepalm. How does anybody know that player B is telling the truth and player A is lying? How is this any less wifomy than having unclaimed kills? Does a true roleclaim come with a message from god that assures us it is gospel truth? Also, 2 vigis doesn't seem farfetched. The distribution of blue roles is equally wifomy. We may not have a medic, so have a second vig to make up for it? Or anything like that? Don't even start down that road, wifom is pointless.
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Also, I am starting to see more and more why veterans tend to keep quite quiet at night. All we're doing is giving mafia ideas.
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@Xatalos: looking over the thread I was reminded of the connection you made between Willz and Yomi. I am not seeing it. Mind explaining it?
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Part I: the usual suspects 1. Willz + Show Spoiler +I would have been one of the first to say Willz is probably town, if BroodKing had flipped scum. Unfortunately, BroodKing being town makes this a helluva lot more complicated. His case on BroodKing didn't convince me yesterday, but I was tipsy and in a rush. ArcticFox and KB poked holes in it pretty effectively, so we don't have to rehash that. The question is: was it just a bad case by town, or a ploy by mafia to get his head out of a noose? When I left yesterday evening I was left yesterday evening I was quite liking Willz's defense. He was calm and answered people's points. He even adopted an unusual defense to my case, which was: he's right, I apologise and intend to improve. Which is something I don't think scum would dare to do. Also, this sounds very sincere: + Show Spoiler [Willz' defense] +On April 14 2012 03:16 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:06 KharadBanar wrote:On April 14 2012 02:55 willz22912 wrote: @ KharadBanar
You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM.
Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy?
You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now. About the bus: I don't have 100% scum reads on both you and Dittert. The fact that you're my strongest reads doesn't mean there is not actually a higher possibility of only one of you being scum, where this isn't a bus but either a scum member accusing a townie or a townie being right in his speculation. I just see a high possibility of there being a scum between the two of you. If you manage to explain your motivations behind the things Acrofales pointed out about you, I'd probably be willing to take my vote off you, because yomi and HiroPro then seem more scummy to me at this point, so please go ahead. Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I'd like to be as transparent as I can even if I still die, because I know this will help town. Please respond with what you wish to know and I will answer as best I can. I can already say that I have not played nearly as well as I thought, and I agree with my hypocrisy in calling for transparency yet holding onto my own opinions. Other than that part of his post, I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. Wouldn't you be annoyed at someone if they were saying you were calling for their mis-lynch when I did nothing of the sort, and that was the basis of his original argument and the one he just used? That is a flat out lie, yet he seems to not realize it himself, then he goes on about how his RL is important and he has no time to play this game as much as others. Fine, RL obviously takes precedence, but that means in his limited time playing Mafia, he won't switch off accusing me constantly, he won't look at anyone else, but I can't call him out on it because he doesn't have enough time, that's part of why I was angry as well. However, his play rapidly deteriorated into martyring himself (not a tell, just unpleasant). He claims he continued to provide town with all the reads he had, but that was not much. The vague suspicion of KB in his BroodKing case. Other than that: + Show Spoiler [Willz' reads at the end of D1] +On April 14 2012 02:33 willz22912 wrote:Xatalos, you may agree with the case against me, but please correct this statement here: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 23:39 Xatalos wrote:
Acrofales, I looked at Willz's filter and I agree something is off about him. It's weird, because initially he was my strongest town read (replaced by you later), but his later posts have been more and more suspicious. ArcticFox and imallinson addressed my cases against them by calmly finding the holes in my logic, but Willz didn't actually respond to Dittert's (somewhat weak) accusations - instead he chose to start an OMGUS war against Dittert ("why do you want to lynch me, I didn't want to lynch you before, but now I do, because you want to lynch me!"). He has also been saying everyone should be transparent, but he himself has been the opposite of transparent. Why would a townie indeed want to hide his opinions so much?
I still don't want to lynch Dittert, I still believe he is a newbie town and he will be very chagrined by the alignment I flip. I did not really start the OMGUS war, because I see that the original basis for Dittert's case against me was that he thought I was trying to start a mis-lynch on him because of his rng-proposal. Technically, he has started the OMGUS war all along. I only got angry about it, which has led to my downfall. You even state here that it's (somewhat weak) accusations. I did try to address them, but it was mostly about specific posts I made (out of many) that he found suspicious. He never made a solid case against me, I just wanted him to stop. If you are willing to lynch me because I became overly defensive when it came to a first time forum player continuing to attack me with what everyone agrees is poor logic, that's fine, but realize that I still don't think that Dittert is Mafia, and when I flip, please don't lynch him first, go after the others on my bandwagon. Summary: Dittert is town. On April 14 2012 02:39 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 02:19 imallinson wrote:On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote: I called out imallinson because he was so quick to drop his stances on everything with a "good argument" and that Xatalos was letting him latch onto his case against ArcticFox without any questioning. HiroPro has also not contributed nearly as much as he could have.
I dropped my stance on Arctic after he and other people had poked holes in Xatalos' argument, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Then I made a case against trumpetarn and have stuck with it when bandwaggoning you would have been the easiest thing in the world. I'm not entirely sure why you think I am so quick to drop my stances (especially confused about the plurality there I have only changed my vote once and that was due to a reasoned counter-argument). I appreciate that you haven't jumped on my bandwagon as well, but that doesn't mean you're not one of the three. There's already enough votes on me to pretty much guarantee it, it would draw too much suspicion everyone voted me. You may indeed be town after all, I'm only trying to be transparent until I die, it's better that I post what I think of you than for town to not know. It may help them in the end. I think your case against Trumperarn has some merit because of how much he has lurked, but he also seems like a very newbie town in his first game, so I really don't know what to make of him really since he hasn't posted anything about me anyway. I would lean towards newbie town, but I have given that excuse to Dittert and Yomi so far, and look where that has gotten me =/ Summary: trumpetarn is a noobie town lurker On April 14 2012 03:39 willz22912 wrote: That's up to KharadBanar, vonKlaust, and Xatalos.
I'm obviously going to be willing to stay alive, but who could I support to lynch in my place without looking desperate?
The two votes not in yet are the lurkers.
ArcticFox thinks Yomi is still Mafia, I personally disagree with this, I won't support that lynch.
imallinson, you think trumpetarn is a valid lynch, I think he's a newb town still, but he is also the most inactive and lurker of us all and hardly a benefit to town. I would be willing to switch my vote to him, but that still wouldn't get him lynched over me, and would reek of desperation.
No I'm content with my fate, just going to try and be as useful to town as I can and then hopefully see you guys win in the end. Summary: yomi is town. On April 14 2012 04:03 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 03:43 BroodKingEXE wrote: @dittert Even if you are dead, a townie would look for scum. If you really are a townie build a case against someone else. You've been asking questions all game, why not use the errors you found when you asked those to guide your suspicions. Would building a case against someone else convince you to not vote me? Then why should I bother building another case when I believe you're really Mafia? I've already stated my suspicions are on HiroPro (mostly for lurking), imallinson (for readily following Xatalos, although he has rebutted this, and I'm not so sure of this) and KharadBanar, who I feel is under-performing considering how he played in Newbie VI. His explanation for this is that he needs time to ramp up and his D1 isn't very good. Yomi: I feel he was overly defensive, a trait that newbie town usually display (he also posted this was his first game as well) He thinks Dittert is still Mafia, which I don't agree with, but that doesn't make him Mafia in my eyes. Still newbie town to me. Dittert: I feel he is going to be unhappy with himself when I flip green, but hopefully the town won't lynch him in response. He tunneled me and he played poorly as town, but that still means he's town in my mind. Xatalos: I feel the most town vibe from him for his willingness to at least start discussion with his case on ArcticFox, but he needs to step up his game since he has experience from GoT Acrofales: Also played in GoT Mafia, probably one of the more experienced newbs, have a good town vibe about him, his case against me is not without cause, and has good logic in it. I cannot blame him for reaching his conclusions because it was my own mistakes he pointed out. vonKlaust: Newbie town, pretty indecisive but without malicious intent, needs to be more assertive and stand by his opinions. Probably town in my eyes. Trumpetarn: Lurking the most out of anyone, probably newbie town with the way he entered the conversation and how he presented himself. Anything else I need to post? A list. Not a bad list, but it mostly summarises older points. I like this post. His reads are pretty light. His scumreads are BroodKing, based on the case he had earlier. KB, although I cannot really get a clue on why exactly (underperformance compared to newbie VI?). HiroPro, for lurking and Imallison for sheeping Xatalos. While I sympathise, because if you don't have good reads, you cannot suddenly post them when under pressure, I am also not particularly convinced he is really trying to get his reads out there. That is so far my largest criticism of him. As scum you know exactly who is townie and want to cast suspicion on them. The question is therefore how sincere is Willz in these posts? The second problem I have is his really butthurt behaviour when he is about to get lynched. He tries (and fails) to play the sympathy card. Particularly I hate the wifom he (intentionally or unintentionally?) creates by voting for himself and only switching to Yomi afterwards. It just plays into Xatalos' already wifomy wifom about the Willz-Yomi connection, which I REALLY don't see (this post was written before I asked for a better explanation in the thread). Post-lynch: On April 14 2012 08:55 willz22912 wrote: Still this leaves me with a shitty situation. I have little to no credibility (I made town wait around for so long for a bad case against a bad townie in the end) Credibility is earned. As to my play, I will try and step it up and be more transparent from now on, I promise. If I don't feel free to lynch me, but at this point I have to do a major rethinking of everything. I was expecting to be the lynch target on D1, and now I find myself alive but my proposed target dead in my place (and a town to boot). I won't be around for much of this night, I will be busy hanging out with family, I might be home in time for the N1 rollover, but that's not a guarantee.
I'm also going to try to tone down my post count as well, I can easily see that I have the largest filter, but it's mostly full of fluff at this point. Being active is good, spamming the thread as I have been doing is bad. This is not an excuse for me to lurk, I'm merely saying I will be posting less (and hopefully better) responses. Thanks for keeping me alive town, I'll do my best to earn this second chance.
You had better. I like his other two night posts, but not enough to budge me much. Yet, it is what judges call reasonable doubt. Verdict: suspicious. At the moment more a source of wifom and confusion. I hope someone DT checked him and this can be resolved. DO NOT CLAIM DT. FIND OTHER WAYS TO GET YOUR INFO OUT THERE. Too much doubt for a D2 lynch. He seems like a decent player, so should give better reads with time. If scum, his buddies will out him.
2. Dittert + Show Spoiler +Yesterday I was unsure about his scummyness. His case on willz was shoddy, but at least it was a case. See here what I thought of Dittert. Since then he has posted a grand total of 1 post and boy, is it shitty. I am not quite sure whether it is scum shitty or just plain shitty, but I agree with everybody who has posted about it so far that he cannot play the noob card and then yell at town for getting it wrong. Something is off here and if he doesn't want my vote tomorrow, he had better start playing properly. If he was so convinced brood was town, why didn't he push his case? In fact, why is his filter so goddamn empty in any case if that's the kind of anger he vents at town getting it wrong. Also, there's Ver (I think) saying that the people who shit all over town in a mislynch are usually scum. No clue how true that is, but it stuck with me. Verdict: scum. Good lynch target D2.
3. Yomi + Show Spoiler +Yesterday's *other* lynch target. My main problem with Yomi is his utter non-contribution to the thread. He has posted quite a lot. However, ALL his posts are about himself (and Xatalos). Stop talking about yourself and start talking about who's suspicious. All I have gotten is that you don't like Dittert and you think willz is *probably* town. That is really really REALLY useless for a 3-page filter. Let me put it differently: the more you fixate on defending yourself with waffle aimed at Xatalos, rather than with actively contributing to scumhunting the more I think you're scum. Your entire filter is filler and/or repeating the same old crap with Xatalos. STOP ITNo. This throwaway list does not count as scumhunting: On April 14 2012 06:43 yomi wrote:Ok. I think you have poor reasoning skills and have never posted an actual "case" per say against me and neither has anyone else. This is your case? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328038¤tpage=20#395I find this post comical at best and already debunked it. I am an abrasive person and now I am dead. I don't know what you guys consider "helpful" but I guess I haven't done it. I think most of the posts in this thread are ridiculous at best and wildly speculative. I won't post anything speculative because I don't think more posting is automatically good and I only want to post things I'm at least somewhat sure of. I think more posting is actually bad and people should try to stay as concise as possible and post a lot less frequently or you guys are going to overwhelm yourselves with spam. I know I already can barely follow the thread. ~20 pages based on no actual information. I find this game bizarre. I think the following players are suspicious: xatalos - because his reasoning is frequently ridiculous. too dumb to believe (see dittert) hiropro - not posting dittert - can't believe the noob town act anymore. brood: this is his "case" against willz http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328038¤tpage=18#349seriously? that passes for an argument now? I think the following players are town: willz honestly not sure of anyone else at this point well that's everything on my mind. I'm prob dead no matter what. gg. Summary: Xatalos because OMGUS, hiropro and dittert for the usual reasons. Brood because of crappy logic. /facepalm. He posted quite a bit at night too. Changing from defending Xatalos' tunneling to tunneling himself on Xatalos. BOTH OF YOU STOP ITYomi, I think your contributions so far have been non-existent. If you're town, stop tunneling on Xatalos and prove your worth. If you're scum, go ahead with shitting up the thread, you'll be lynched soon enough. Verdict: scum. Not red, because I don't like him for scum as much as dittert. It is plausible he's just a really dumb townie tunneling on Xatalos.
Part II: goodfellas 1. Imallison + Show Spoiler +I have a problem reading Imallison. The reason is that it seems like he's contributing, but upon a closer look it seems that he's not. And then, if you look really closely, his posts have a point. I am not sure whether this is because he is unable to express himself concisely, or because he is willfully obfuscating his reads in a fat load of waffle. Some posts I don't like: On April 13 2012 19:28 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 15:40 Xatalos wrote:imallinson, I noticed a couple of suspicious things about your filter. First of all, this: On April 13 2012 04:18 imallinson wrote: I never thought you were mafia and wasn't trying to label you as such. I was just pointing out that what you had said about me wasn't quite accurate. Also this was before you had posted your suspicions on Arctic. You posting those suspicions definitely reinforced you as being probably town in my head. This post is an almost complete lie. If you look at my filter, I made my case against ArcticFox FIRST and only noticed your (suspicious) post after that. So your reasoning for first saying I'm Mafia and then backing off is extremely questionable, based on this post at least. And you say you never suspected me to begin with? Then what was this post all about: On April 12 2012 16:54 imallinson wrote: @ Xatalos
I didn't mention blue reads at all. I said lurker lynches can get a blue who is trying to hide in the shadows. I never mentioned anyone I thought was blue or how we would figure a blue out. You seem to be looking so hard for slip ups you are making some yourself. What is that if not accusing me of a Mafia slip? You never said directly I was Mafia, but looking at this sentence, I can see no reason to post it unless you thought I was Mafia. So why did you say later on that you never thought I was suspicious at all? it's not accusing you of a mafia slip at all at the time you were throwing accusations around like crazy, this was about 12 -14 hours in mind you, I was merely suggesting you maybe should calm down and think more logically that saying 4 or 5 people seem scummy with no evidence to back it up. town can make slip ups as well. Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 15:40 Xatalos wrote: Other potentially suspicious bits from your filter: - Your first post is very vague and hesitant, typical for a Mafia first post. - Your two Mafia reads so far have been ArcticFox (easy to jump on after me) and trumpetarn (a hardcore lurker who wouldn't defend himself). If Acrofales had flipped town, you could have just put the blame on me instead of yourself. Going after trumpetarn is very easy and harmless for you, because even if he flips town, nobody will blame you for being suspicious of an anti-town lurker. - Your sudden vote list is a "classic" Mafia tactic to appear useful without actually being useful. It's not really a reason to lynch you, but also considering the other stuff, it all adds up.
- Over half the people here had hesitant first posts. - I picked trumpetarm at random out of the people who were lurking to make a case either way on because Willz suggested I make a case on someone who wasn't in the spotlight to put my own opinions out there. I'm not sure what Acrofales getting lynched has to do with anything no one has really suggested he might be scum. And ArcticFox was me agreeing with your case. If people agreeing with you makes them scummy I don't know what to say. - The vote list was because Willz had just asked if we could have a separate vote thread because it was hard to figure out where the votes were. I don't see how that is in anyway scummy. I really don't like his answer to why he made his case on trumpetarm. My interpretation of this is: willz thought I was scummy and asked me to post, so I will pick a random lurker and accuse him of being scum. There is no conviction here. Why trumpetarm rather than hiro, yomi or dittert? You made a case (fine), and in this post rather than defending your case you admit that your case was actually just a screen to hide behind. That is very scummy. On April 14 2012 06:55 imallinson wrote:I was just about to say yomi looks the scummiest here and then we get this corker from BroodKing Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: This vote is way to close I am going to vote for Yomi to make sure Mafia don't get the initiative to switch.
This makes some sense but I have a feeling scum wouldn't try to save a fellow scum now it would look way too obvious given the current discussion. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: I have already put some thoughts down, but his recent posts haven't helped his case. He talks about how he has been flaming, and that he is going to get more information. The problem with this is that its roughly 1.5 hours to vote, any information he brings foward won't be able to analyzed properly and the voting will turn to chaos.
This is kind of true, yomi really hasn't made himself look good, but voting for someone because they can no longer save themselves is dumb and pointless. Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: Although I think willz is more likely scum.
##Unvote ##Vote: Yomi
What ... This makes no sense what so ever. Why would you vote for someone if you didn't think they were scum. This whole post reeks of scum realising their ally is about to get lynched and trying to get some town cred from bandwaggoning on him. I still think yomi is pretty scummy at the moment but BroodKing definitely looks worse now. ##Unvote ##Vote: BroodKingEXE This was basically the only post that stood out to me of the people who voteswitched to BroodKing. My problem is how he misrepresents BroodKing. I have made the misrepresentation red. The rest is wifom. How do you know what scum would do at the last minute? Why did you wifom brood's reason for voting? For all we know they were both scum and you are their scumbuddy helluva relieved that you now have a reason not to bus your buddy? We don't, wifom is bad. Misrepresentation is a trick I liked to use in GoT mafia: take someone's words and give them a slight twist: make them look terrible. For icing on the cake add some plausible reason for why they did that. Recipe for a scum-made case. That is the recipe I see being followed here too. The problem is with the timing. This is a lot of effort to go to when the BroodKing bandwagon is already going. It could also be a townie learning from his mistakes and dreaming up a justification for his vote (in a bit of a rush), rather than bandwagoning brood without a valid reason. However, this leads to wifom: it could be mafia cleverly covering his tracks and securing the lynch. It could just be that imallison is a slow typer and was making the case before the bandwagon truly got going. So lets ignore this argument and just stick to: misrepresenting other people is scummyRedemption+ Show Spoiler +On April 14 2012 15:26 imallinson wrote:Well now the BroodKing thing has settled into my head a bit more I will post my thoughts on the current situation. Honestly this lynch sucks if we had lynched either Willz or yomi we would have got info from it, lynching Brood and him turning town. I'm not entirely sure about Willz's idea about all the scum voting for Brood because absolutely everyone who was here in the hour before voting pretty much instantly switched to Brood. Also it's perfectly possible a scum member wasn't here near the end or was lurking super hard and didn't feel the need to come out of the shadows because the Brood lynch was obviously going through. Now my thoughts on some of our other townsmembers. Dittert: After his last post I'm really not convinced about the dumb town thing any more. Someone who isn't confident about their ability doesn't chastise people and call them idiots. Show nested quote +All I hear about is how "such and such FEELS scummy/townie to me." After 3 or less games of mafia, what makes you think your intuition is worth anything? I will admit there have been some fairly weak arguments (yomi, Xatalos and myself have all been guilty of this although Dittert is as well) however it's day 1 in a newbie game we probably aren't going to be seeing any Holmes-esque deductions yet. Show nested quote +For everyone who saw Brood's play as "so obviously mafia/scumslip," what do you think of your judgement now? As I mentioned before, I thought Brood was just kind of bad town (or as I said, "says some really stupid shit"). I think ArcticFox said it best here "That was the dumbest thing I think I've ever seen." He's right it was a dumb slip by Brood whether he is town or scum. Looking back at it it's easy to say it was a stupid thing to go for. Show nested quote +What irks me is that before I left, we had a pretty good case going against willz and a general ##FoS pointed at yomi. Once willz started posting more, everyone seemed to think that he must be town (why does posting more mean you're town, especially when posts with any kind of substance whatsoever came after Acro and myself built a strong case against him). It's not just because he started posting more. He actually put up some sort of defence (in between the moping), then yomi started looking more suspicious so the vote started to move to him, finally Brood posted his dumb slip and the vote moved to him. This all makes sense from a town perspective, everyone voted for who they thought was most suspicious at the time. Show nested quote +Okay, so if you're convinced willz is town, why not vote for yomi? Yomi didn't even really have a defense, and I don't understand why everyone switched off of him. People did vote for yomi and I don't think anyone has switched off of him. He is certainly high on my list of suspicious people (more on that later). Show nested quote +Does post X make sense if so and so is town? What about if they're mafia? Do I see a pattern of posting between people? Remember that the mafia are coordinating with each other. Can you pick out anything that looks like coordination between 3 people? If you think so and so is mafia, with whom are they working? Can you construct a consistent and compelling story about what might be happening in the thread? Are you willing to assume that most people are just chattering townies (which is statistically true)? A lot of this has been said before in the cases against Willz and yomi. This reeks of trying to be helpful while not actually contributing. Show nested quote +And for everyone who consistently says that my logic is dumb, my posts are bad, and my reads are wrong, my only read on brood was that he was a townie doing dumb stuff. Looks like I'm 1 for 1, or 2 for 2 if you count the townie part and the dumb stuff (like making a "scumslip" at the last minute) as 2 separate things. This read of yours is both well before he slipped up and after he flipped town. You didn't have much reason to suspect him in the former and have hindsight in the later. You seem to be using the fact you weren't here when the vote flipped to Brood to show you as innocent which I'm not buying. It's easy to say a vote was stupid after it has happened if you had responded as such while it was happening I might take your accusations a bit more seriously. That whole post seems scummy to me ##FoS: Dittertyomi: I'm really not sure about you at the moment. There have been decent arguments against you you never properly responded to but your posting is so erratic and nonsensical that I think you might just be a really bad town player. I would think scum would be more careful and considered in their posting. That being said you are playing so badly currently I'm thinking you wouldn't be a terrible lynch / vig shot. I would really like to get some calmer some reasoned stuff from you. Xatalos: The one good point, although not conveyed well, that yomi made is about you Xatalos. You have actually been suspicious of, to various degrees, or have voted against everyone except yourself and trumpetarn who barely counts because he stopped posting midway through day 1. I can't see a reason why any town would be so suspicious of everyone around him. I understand being wary and throwing a few accusations around but you have taken it to an extreme. I'm not sure whether you are town or scum but I really would like to know why you are so suspicious of everybody. Willz: Everyone seemed to let you off the hook somewhat after yomi became suspect #1 and I will admit you were definitely helpful in what you thought were your death throes posting your reads on others but the mopyness and self voting really helps only the scum. I don't know whether you are town or scum at the moment but you need to cut that shit out. I'll just post short thoughts on everyone else as I don't have mountains to say about them. vonKlaus: You strike me as fairly town. You have defended your self well and haven't been afraid to makes cases. ArcticFox: Again you seem town for the same reasons as vonKlaus. Acrofales: You are probably my strongest town read. You made an excellent well reasoned case against Willz. KharadBanar: Your posting can be a bit sporadic but is helpful when it exists. I hope to see you really shine now we are past day 1. HiroPro: I don't know what to say about you, you barely post. You also seem to flop about a fair bit with your voting mainly following other people. I really like this post. I don't really see a reason for mafia to make this post when it was made. It gives a good evaluation of the game so far and I agree with most of his reads. The rest of his posting in the night has also been good. Verdict: probably town. Want to see him live long enough to make more posts like his night posts.
2. Hiropro + Show Spoiler + His posts are making some effort to be useful.
Verdict: noob town (same as yesterday, but slightly stronger)
3. Xatalos + Show Spoiler +Yeah. I'm surprised to find Xata in this list too. I was pretty convinced he was town yesterday. His filter is by far the hardest to decipher, so bear with me. 1. His filter is gigantic 2. He waffles alot Yesterday I made the effort to sift through the waffle and see if it was just his playstyle that makes him waffle, or whether he is trying to shit up the thread. I concluded that it's his playstyle from the following posts. + Show Spoiler [Xatalos' bumblingly townie posts] +On April 12 2012 23:45 Xatalos wrote: yomi, Dittert and HiroPro: your contributions so far are non-existent. ArcticFox posted something useful at last, so I'm almost willing to vote for someone else in his place, but you three need to post something before I can get a clear town/Mafia read on you. For the time being, I'm going to keep my vote on ArcticFox, since he's the only one I can make a strong case against at the moment. But you three are next in the line unless you convince me otherwise. Calls out players. Keeps his vote on his strongest read. On April 13 2012 03:52 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 03:41 imallinson wrote: EBWOP: I think I've said all I want on Arctic at the moment. He definitely has gone some way to alleviating my suspicions of him. I'm going to read through some of the more lurky players filters to see if there is anything suspicious there beyond them not posting. Hmm.. I'll definitely want to hear your opinions on other players than ArcticFox or Dittert. Willz was right in that you didn't really push anything of your own, but rather followed behind. That doesn't look good in my eyes. Also, I wonder about your fast change of heart earlier - your first reaction was to label me as a possible Mafia for suspecting you (OMGUS reaction) and right after that you started agreeing with me on everything. How does that work? Reads willz' case and keeps an eye on imallison. Calls out his possibly suspect behaviour. On April 13 2012 20:54 Xatalos wrote: imallinson, I like your answer. Your calm counter-arguments make sense from a townie perspective. However, you should at least post some more. You have been pretty silent and Mafia are usually in the category between lurkers and active posters, where you fit perfectly at the moment. Post more and your townieness will become more clear. (btw there was a typo in my case, I meant ArcticFox, not Acrofales)
Acrofales, your case against Willz seems good on the surface, but I'm not sure about him. I'd want to at least see his upcoming "big contribution" before voting. However, I will look through his filter once I get home and see if I agree with you.
More than Willz I would want to lynch Yomi right now. But he also claimed he wants to contribute closer to the deadline... Hmm, I don't like this delaying of contribution Willz and Yomi are doing. I'll reconsider my vote a bit later when I can read the filters in peace. Calm and collected. However, I kept my suspicions. Some posts I just really don't like. I also have the feeling that he might just be throwing suspicion around and seeing where it'll stick. He tried ArcticFox, it failed. He tried imallison, vonKlaust and finally yomi. This is, once again, pretty easy as mafia: you already know who's town. Look through their filter and make up a case. The problem with labeling this as scummy is that it is also a sign of overeager town. I kept my opinion in reserve. Tonight, however, I REALLY don't like his posts. He keeps on waffling on about his meta in GoT as if we should care to compare his play then with person X now. I was scum with him in GoT and his playstyle was different: more lurky, more searching for compromises. However, the whole point of being a noob is to learn and improve. The meta argument is more a minor irritation. The main things I really haven't liked in Xatalos' play: 1. Excessive tunneling, despite being told (and acknowledging) that it serves no purpose except to shit up the thread. + Show Spoiler [Tunneling] +On April 14 2012 01:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 23:52 vonKlaust wrote:@Xatalos I said you were my prime suspect, but I was and am far from sure that you are mafia. I don't agree with that I have had a persistant focus on you. I still maintain the stance that you could be mafia and I think that the chances for you being mafia is higher than others in the thread, but for now I think that Willz and Hiro are far safer bets. This is what I wrote about you when asked to pick top scum candidate: I'm unsure about Xatalos. While he have done a couple of potential scumslips he feels a tad to vocal for a mafia member. And those slips can just have been the result of bad reasoning, even though I doubt it. This is my reasoning for writing that: + Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 04:06 vonKlaust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 03:43 Xatalos wrote:
He didn't only agree with me, he posted some additional potentially suspicious quotes from ArcticFox. That's why I didn't focus on him at that point... Mafia usually jump in sheepishly to vote once a very easy lynch target has been found, not as early as he did. Still, he hasn't done much else for this thread, and I'm watching him closely.
That's the risk I'll have to take. However, nobody was really pressuring anyone when I woke up and read the thread, so I figured I had to make the first move. There's no certainty that ArcticFox is Mafia, but given the information I have, I don't mind lynching him at the moment. This is fallacious. Of course it's better for the crooks to try to put forward some solid evidence together with joining a lynch than to just, as you put it, sheepishly vote once a very easy target has been found. Not only does it make the chances of the target actually getting lynched, but it also makes them look towny. I can accept that you would rather focus at ArticFox, but this explanation is NOT sufficient for dropping your suspicions on Iamallison To me this looks like a potential scum slip. On April 13 2012 04:46 vonKlaust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 03:20 Xatalos wrote: I agree with you that the response from ArcticFox was good. It still doesn't mean he is town. You, like Willz, fail to see that metagame was only the starting point of my case, not the "meat" of it. The major part of my case was his flow of useless posts about policies and blues, neither related to Mafia-hunt but easy to talk about for Mafia (without giving town any new information). However, by no means is ArcticFox a "must-lynch" for me - just that he is my preference at the moment.
Also, you have to admit my case on ArcticFox has generated a lot of useful discussion and possible Mafia slips (we can't know them all yet, as some of them will become more clear once some player's alignments are revealed). I'm all for pushing another lynch target, since everyone voting for ArcticFox would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in. Seeing players' reactions to different lynch pushes will be very helpful. I went back to research Xatalos filter after this incident: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14321137 And found this piece of text. This strikes me as pretty awkward. Not only is he trying to justify his case by saying that it generated discussion, but he also proposes to push another lynch target, not because he thinks that ArticFox is a bad lynch, but because "It would make it too easy for Mafia to blend in". Of course pushing for lynches generates discussion, but that does not justify pushing bad lynches. Of course you can use votes to pressure, but your vote against ArticFox don't really come across as a pressure vote to me. Also it feels a bit wierd that you seem so decisive while still saying stuff like "By no means is ArticFox a must-lynch for me" and "I'm all for pushing another lynch target". Especially when you earlier in the game wrote stuff like: Show nested quote +There's only so much you can do 7 hours into the game, but what I've got from these posts has been VERY useful + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14315170 Show nested quote +I suggest everyone to read my case on ArcticFox and vote for him. I'd put his chances of being Mafia at 70-80%, which is extremely high for me considering it's this early. + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14315248 It feels like you're trying to get out of the lynch-train you created in the first place, while still maintaining ArticFox as a prime suspect. As far as I can tell, you didn't really ever back down from your claims. You just went defensive when people started to criticize your case. Hmm. You actually HAD some sort of a case against me. Your remarks are just so vague and uncertain that I haven't taken your observations seriously enough. I didn't say, at any point, that I had a town read on imallinson... I just said my suspicions of him "dropped a bit" after he made some valid additional points about ArcticFox and voted for him. I didn't think Mafia would so eagerly jump on the first possibility of a bandwagon - from what I've seen, Mafia usually wait until lynching someone gathers strong enough support and then blend in with the mass of voters. I'm not saying Mafia have to play passive and/or leave the initiative for town, but imallinson's fast agreement with my vote didn't seem very Mafia-like to me (too reckless and careless - generally Mafia are cautious and avoid the spotlight). I agree that I was too convinced by my own case, and I should have shifted my attention away from ArcticFox sooner. I think a reason for that might be that in my previous game (AGOT) there was a pretty aggressive town player named Mattchew, who found out 75% (3/4) of the Mafia team in a matter of hours, but he had too little faith in himself and followed the general opinion instead of his own opinion. If he had pushed even one of us during the first day, he might have won the game for town. I think that's the main reason why I didn't want to give up on my case on ArcticFox so fast, but in the end, it's not useful to tunnel so hard on one person if the general opinion has already shifted against my case. I don't consider ArcticFox a good lynch anymore even myself. By the way, I would be much more suspicious of YOU jumping for the ArcticFox bandwagon than imallinson. imallinson at least added content to my case and was pretty open and fearless about his support for my case. You, on the other hand, tried your very best to avoid responsibility. You said just that it "carried some truth" without adding anything of your own to it (other than your hesitant support for the case). Care to explain this? So here you admit you tunneled a bit on ArcticFox (I kinda disagree, that was probably healthy pressure). Yet a day later we get this from you: On April 14 2012 05:55 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 05:53 yomi wrote: Can't believe it has come to this but I have to protect myself
I am 100% sure I am town but only 70-80% sure of willz. I have to save a sure townie vs a probably townie.
##unvote: dittert ##vote: willz22912
I will GLADLY move to dittert, brood, hiropro Why so scared? If you are town, you should post and convince us you are innocent. Instead you try to protect your hide by sacrificing your "most townie read" even BEFORE you are set to be lynched. This makes me even more suspicious of you, which is quite an achievement. I can't see a motivation for town to do this. This is not a scumtell. It's 1 hour before the deadline and he doesn't want to die. It's a scaredy-cat tell. What I am getting from you is confirmation bias. The rest of the day and most of the night is filled with a back and forth with Yomi which serves no real purpose. 2. Meaningless wifom about all kinds of stuff: bluefishing, + Show Spoiler [Wifom] +On April 12 2012 17:14 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 16:54 imallinson wrote: @ Xatalos
I didn't mention blue reads at all. I said lurker lynches can get a blue who is trying to hide in the shadows. I never mentioned anyone I thought was blue or how we would figure a blue out. You seem to be looking so hard for slip ups you are making some yourself. Nevertheless, you were THINKING about blue tells as you considered lynching lurkers = possibly killing blues. It's not a reason enough to lynch you yet, but if I had to choose between you or anyone else outside of ArcticFox, Dittert and yomi, I would choose to vote for you. And you seem to forget that blue players very rarely are lurkers: mostly they try to act like vanilla townies and be at least somewhat active. Being a lurker or semi-lurker means a higher chance of Mafia, since it's against Mafia's win condition to contribute. Besides, I found your hesitation and wishy-washiness more condemning than your comment about lurkers = blues. On April 14 2012 04:49 Xatalos wrote: Willz, please listen. Look at the situation like this (I believe this is the case):
- Willz is town - yomi is Mafia
Here are the possible outcomes:
A) We lynch Willz. He flips town. We lynch yomi tomorrow. He flips Mafia. There is no certainty about who are townies and who are not. B) We lynch yomi. He flips Mafia. We now know Willz is town, as well as I and ArcticFox. We can lynch someone else tomorrow. This may be trying to help. However, HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL? Why does yomi flipping mafia say willz is town? I haven't seen willz make much of a case against yomi. Atm I am willing to believe you might be town if yomi is scum, but how does it have anything at all to do with ArcticFox? Why are you pulling random names out of a hat? Even you is doubtful: two recent examples are Gumshoe vs. me in GoT mafia and VE vs. Toad in LI. Tunneling on a fellow mobster is high risk, but also high reward. On April 14 2012 07:08 Xatalos wrote: I did the same when I was Mafia last game. I kept gumshoe as my top Mafia read while nobody else suspected him. It worked well for me there. chaoser also made his first vote for Acrofales, a Mafia teammate. That argument is just WIFOM, there's no way what you might think of as Mafia. Zzzzz more GoT meta blabla wifom On April 15 2012 01:37 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 01:21 Acrofales wrote: Once again. Stop assuming that claiming a vigi shot is a good way for a vigi to get town credit. Mafia can use this easily to gain town credit too (at the very least until N2, when kill flavours may not line up). I don't think Mafia would be up for such a huge risk. Imagine this: player A (Mafia) claims he is a Vigilante and that he shot yomi (based on my suggestion). However, the real Vigilante decided to shoot somebody else after all. Player B (Vigilante) shot player C, and everyone sees now that player A was lying - even if it were possible for there to be two Vigilantes (which I find very unlikely) everyone would know that player A is Mafia pretending to be Vigilante. 3. Filler posts telling everybody how to play. A few is fine. Xatalos has half a page of them. + Show Spoiler [lectures] +On April 12 2012 17:18 Xatalos wrote: Of course we can't expect everyone to play logically, but if you're a townie, you SHOULD contribute and be active, and if you're Mafia, you SHOULD be silent or disruptive. So lurking is definitely not equal to how a townie SHOULD play. On April 12 2012 18:58 Xatalos wrote: But the pressure is much stronger with vote+argument instead of just a vote (KharadBanar) or just an argument (Acrofales). So Acrofales, I encourage you to vote already. Your hesitation to vote only increases my suspicion of you, just like KharadBanar's empty voting increases my suspicion of him. A townie should never hesitate to vote. So while I agree that they need to respond, we won't necessarily get the answers we seek without the actual pressure of being lynched. On April 14 2012 21:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 21:12 Acrofales wrote: @Xatalos: WTF. You're not proved anything at all until you're dead. Roleblocks don't stop mafia KP. You also just roleclaimed green, btw.
The rest of your post is one massive wall of wifom and completely pointless. Just. Don't. Okay? Really? I thought roleblock stops Mafia KP in this setup. Just look at this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324743&user=151616¤tpage=3 (the one where KharadBanar makes his last will and roleclaims before his death) Could we please get confirmation from a host? Ah, yeah... It doesn't really make sense for a blue to ask being jailed. But you don't know if I'm actually Jailer and just making the Mafia WIFOM into not shooting me, do you? Everything is possible. Even me being Mafia and wanting to buy a bit of credibility by sacrificing my power. I haven't announced my role yet. I'm glad you started posting and I like your response to my criticism of being AFK for the lynch. At the moment you read very town for me, so I agree with vonKlaust that you should be protected. At least we should encourage the Doctor to protect you - even if he decides otherwise, Mafia can't risk to waste their KP on you while you well might be protected. But I don't agree about telling who to investigate, because it would be too easy to frame then. Vigilante: yomi (preferably also explain your choice at the deadline, look at GOT where SLJ did this as well: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321496&user=239474¤tpage=3)Jailer: Xatalos Doctor: Acrofales Detective: use your own judgement Most of Xatalos' posts are not useful and confusing. Sometimes I get the impression he is shitting up the thread on purpose and sometimes I get the impression he is trying to contribute. I am thus torn between the overeager townie and willfully confusing scum. Verdict: suspicious. At the moment all he's doing is filling the thread with crap. His filter is nearly unreadable and making sense of it is hard as hell. He keeps distracting people from scumhunting and focusing on meaningless details. Overeager townie or scum? I am unsure, but keep an eye on him. When the lurkers are unlurked or shot, he had better have improved his posts, or I'm going after him.
Connections I'm not a big fan of connections, but I noticed this:
Dittert and Yomi went at each other at a time there was really no reason to. If one is scum the other is probably town.
Xatalos and Yomi tunneling could mean the same thing.
Flipping yomi is not a bad idea to get a read on both of these (yeah yeah, coldhearted bastard).
Random stuff vonKlaust is blending in pretty well. No time to analyse his filter properly atm, but he's doing a good job of being quite forgettable.
I might as well complete the "list": KB and ArcticFox are town reads for me.
Do we have a replacement for trumpetarn yet? I would have included him in the second set of suspects. I hope his replacement plays a more open style.
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@willz: srsly. Stop with the self-pity. Other than that your posts at Xata is on the money
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ArcticFox: too townie to live, too quiet to get protected. He will be missed. Now people. Lets get scumhunting.
##vote Dittert
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Also, welcome Funcmode. I have high expectations from you.
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Dittert, in stead of martyring yourself, you can try contributing. I really don't want to kill you, but you're leaving me very little choice.
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