|
On February 22 2012 12:23 kitaman27 wrote:Dang it, I'm a sucker for blue claims. Funny to see the votes pile up on red after the claim, rather than before. On one hand, a mafia player who is set to die should always be claiming blue, but on the other, his claim ties up a potential roleblocker. Tracker is a tricky claim because even confirming it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a mafia stalker or something. I'll be keeping my vote on him for the moment. Now to everyone else: I've enjoyed comedy hour with Jackal, but his filter is completely void of content. Not a single post showing he isn't just along for the ride. Toad appears to be going through post-Arkham depression or something. A lot of fluff and he isn't very willing to share his reads. Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:14 prplhz wrote:
Okay I don't think that redFF is scum because he's been pretty out there. The scummiest he has done in my opinion is his claim which was oddly timed. Right now he's a terribly easy lynch, because we'll have to lynch him at some point. I'd like to see wherebugsgo explain how everything redFF has done can be explained by scum motivation and can not be explained by town motivation. The worst thing about this whole redFF thing is that the lynch is so easy that everybody can just pile onto him and then the day is kinda ruined, we aren't going to find anybody else. I don't think that redFF is scum because he's just been putting himself too much in the line of fire. Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:14 prplhz wrote:
I'll vote redFF to avoid no lynch. I kinda assume that this is an extended majority lynch where we can end up in a no lynch sitaution, but the OP doesn't really say anything about that. But like, redFF probably isn't scum, come on. There's also plenty good in having him around since scum can't role block anybody else no matter redFF's alignment. The lynch today comes down to "We very likely have to lynch redFF at some point, should it be today or do we have something better?". Right now, I think it's too early to say. These two statements by prpl completely contradict each other. You argue how you don't think red is scum, but you're willing to vote him to avoid no lynch? How does that make sense? If you're going to argue that he really is blue, then of course a no lynch would be more beneficial. How about push a different lynch if red isn't your priority? This is really poor from him. I know I already picked on Dirkzor for his language, but I'm going to do it again. Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 07:03 Dirkzor wrote:
The positive part is that I already have something to critisize... Good job on starting discussion.
"Hey guys. Look at me and my protown attitude!" Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 02:39 Dirkzor wrote:
I'll give my honest opinion so far... Only scum say this. Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 05:03 Dirkzor wrote:
Wat? I'm glad you have that big confidence in my ability as town but I can't magicly make me notice scum... I notice what I notice when I notice it. And when I do I post it. So far this game I got jack. Lack of aggression and confidence.
I love you so much right now.
However, if you turn out to be the godfather I will hate myself forever.
|
On February 22 2012 12:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 12:15 wherebugsgo wrote:On February 22 2012 11:56 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo Ad hominems are really fucking stupid in this game. There are hardly any new players you could hope to bully into anything. All you can achieve is make people dislike you which will reduce your town pull, or maybe starting a pissing contest that will make it harder for meaningful discussion to take place while cluttering up the thread.
I haven't personally attacked anyone in this thread. I have called them bad, I have said that their play sucks, and that they are in general useless for town. All of these things are game-relevant and actually pretty important. If you're referring to the fact that I said your agreement with syllo cements my opinion that syllo is wrong, then yes, you deserved that (and no, it is not ad hominem.) It is my opinion that syllo is wrong, and your agreement is bad. That's just indicative of you being bad. Since Dr. H also agrees with syllo, and his posting has been quite shitty, I think he's scum. On February 22 2012 11:46 prplhz wrote:
So maybe you could cut down on them. Also, my neck is fucking killing me so I'm probably a bit cranky right now.
@RebirthOfLeGenD So, redFF or BloodyC0bbler, who's it gonna be? I think you're just mad because I pointed out that your opinion is worth next to nothing since it's clearly wrong. Why would I be your second strongest read rather than syllo, in this case?
Because you sheeped and syllogism didn't.
prpl would be a scumread too if he was normally any good. But, it's nothing out of the ordinary to expect prplhz to make a bad argument, so despite the fact that he agrees with an opinion I disagree with it isn't alignment indicative for him.
Can you logically demonstrate why any case against BC is terrible instead of simply stating that it is and FOSing the people who suspect him?
I probably could, but I don't have to, since the burden of proof is on you. If you want to convince someone to vote BC you need to come up with a convincing argument first. For now, since your vote reason is poor, no one has a reason to follow you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
|
On February 22 2012 12:56 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo My point is that, you knew before you joined this game that I'm stupid and you probably knew a lot of other people are stupid and that it's very unlikely that we've suddenly improved rapidly. You knew this unless you are stupid. Were you stupid? This is the situation you have put yourself in. Now you're throwing ad hominems around (yes, saying that player Y is more likely to be wrong because of the mere fact that player X agrees with him is an ad hominem on player X) and that's just making people think you're an asshole, clouding their judgement in emotions, which you should expect it to do. You know this unless you are stupid. Are you stupid? I like Jackal58 more right now just because he said he'd shoot you to make this game more enjoyable, that doesn't really make sense but that's how it is. This is the situation you've put yourself in, you're actively not making the best of it and you can't explain that away.
I'm sorry but this made me laugh repeatedly because of how absolutely convoluted it is.
In fact, this entire discussion is completely worthless because you're just butthurt and you can't handle being called bad.
If you want people to lynch BC, then you need to come up with a convincing argument for him being scum. Until then, there's little else for me to do but ridicule you because you can't handle my style of play. My style of play is directed at forcing people into reacting certain ways. So far your reactions haven't made you look that great.
My roleblocker point was the same that kitaman27 just made, redFF's existence ties up a roleblocker if they have one. If redFF is scum and they roleblock somebody else they force redFF to make his findings public which would give us more info to base a lynch on, which is good. If redFF is town then we get some hopefully juicy information, which is good.
Very little of this is true, mostly because it's largely WIFOM.
We don't know what the optimal choice for scum would be if redFF is town. No one knows what his role is except redFF himself. He could be lying and he could be telling the truth; how do we know? Can you find anything that would help us determine this?
Also, if I were scum and redFF was town I'd personally probably not even bother roleblocking redFF because the simple knowledge that he claimed tracker would let me manipulate his standing in town. There are some players, on the other hand, who I know would roleblock him 100% if they were scum in that situation.
If he's scum he either fake claims roleblock or he claims a fake result. Since he claimed tracker, neither of these scenarios helps us determine his alignment.
It's even worse because in this setup roleblock notifications are not sent out (or at least that's what it says in the OP). Thus, only blues with an action that returns the same night (as in, DT-type roles) would 100% know that they were roleblocked. Vigis who shot have to consider the possibility that their targets were protected, doctors whose targets die would have to consider that their target got double stacked, etc.
Imagine a setup where the scumteam has a rolecop and a roleblocker. They roleblock and cop the same person at once and then if they turn out to be anything other than a DT-type role anyone on the scumteam can fakeclaim a roleblock. How do you deal with that?
So, essentially, if redFF is scum, we leave him alive today and that's one bad thing. Tomorrow we'll have to deal with either a roleblock claim or a result claim, neither of which will help us find out his alignment because both are possible from both alignments.
|
On February 22 2012 12:58 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 12:56 prplhz wrote:@kitaman27 I thought it was majority lynch back then so I said that I'd vote redFF to avoid no lynch. I think it's plurality lynch now and we'll see what I do. I'm pretty sure I said in a game not 4 months ago that I prefer no-lynches to lynches. Right now, I'm contradicting myself and that makes me scum? If I back down them I'm also contradicting myself (cf. the argument you made against redFF in the beginning of this game) and this also making me scum? Yikes, did I touch on a sensitive issue? Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 12:56 prplhz wrote:
I support lynches because redFF could conceivably be scum, I just don't think so. I just like a flip and this is my subjective opinion, it doesn't really make sense to discuss it right now. lol
he's caught between a rock and a dumb place
|
I'm not concerned because at no point was your argument ever convincing that he's scum.
Again, as I said before, the burden of proof is on you. If you want to tell me BC is scum and that I should vote for him, come up with a convincing argument for him being scum. So far, you've told me that you think he's scum based on his "lack of activity" and the fact that "his posts jump out to me as scummy." Neither of these things is at all alignment-indicative, so why are you stretching to pretend as if your argument is worth more than it really is? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that an argument of "this guy has posted five times and he looks scummy" is god awful.
In fact, what you just said is more a soft-defend of redFF than it is an accusation of BC.
|
what's hilarious is that redFF has made 0 posts since his claim.
In what world does a townie just leave after claiming?
|
On February 22 2012 15:55 VisceraEyes wrote:
And BC is your strongest read right now Syllo? Like, without question?
Did you ever get around to looking at the whole WBG/chaoser thing sir? I feel like that exchange means something. chaoser's defense was solid, but I didn't mind WBG's attack either.
However, chaoser still seems to be interested in finding scum, while WBG has only recently been calling red scum...he's been tunneled in on chaoser ever since that argument.
I'm starting to get a red read on WBG.
did you just accuse me of tunneling chaoser?
LOL.
I guess you don't know what tunneling means. If you want to see me tunneling chaoser, look at Steamship.
|
So many pages
Why must I go to class
Based on my skim and what I haven't already said I believe that prplhz is scum. RedFF is still a good lynch, and if he flips red IMO we need to 100% kill prplhz.
|
On February 23 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2012 06:54 risk.nuke wrote:
God dammit don't lynch a person who claimed tracker day 1. If you have ANY brains. He claimed tracker powers day 1 and hasn't played since then, he didn't claim a named role though which is extremely odd since it's allowed. And this is weirder than BC's weirdness?
Yes, because BC has defended himself.
In the words of Ace, I'll always believe the person who is here over the person who can't even be arsed to post.
From the Great Holy Ace Diaries, ca. January 2011
|
On February 23 2012 06:58 prplhz wrote:
Rofl wherebugsgo.
Are you trying to say something about my alignment based on another player's alignment?
Based on your play so far, yes.
Good news is that if redFF flips town I probably will only care about you at 80% of the level I would if redFF flipped scum.
Bad news is probably either way unless one of your scumbuddies messes up I'm going to kill you.
|
On February 23 2012 07:03 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Why is that scummy? It's a completely valid point, in fact the signup post even implies there is a third party. Because a town player questions if a scummy player is scum. A scum player questions if a scum player is third party. They know he can't be scum.
I need to tell you again I love you.
I support killing Tyrran as well.
|
Wait LOL was he third party?
I think we should kill Tyrran now
|
I wonder if he knew that would happen and that's why he said nothing?
wtf
|
Man VE your filter looks terrible
|
On February 22 2012 21:17 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 20:00 Tyrran wrote:Okay so here is my final point of view on the redFF case: I wanst sold on his lynch until his claim. But this claim is so bad that it got me thinking that he really is scum. As I stated, before, and as multiple people stated several time in the thread, town gains nothing from this claim. You've got to wonder : What does redFF gain by claiming day 1 if he is town ? Maybe he'll avoid the lynch. But then how is he going to avoid mafia KP/Roleblock ? How does he expect to be useful later on ? As town, it doesnt really make sense to claim. He then spends 3 post explaining that it would be a bad idea to lynch him now that he has claimed : On February 22 2012 07:14 redFF wrote:
inb4 lying about claim, doesn't matter, its fairly easy to confirm a tracker, and you don't lynch a claimed blue day 1, especially a strong one like tracker. On February 22 2012 07:19 redFF wrote:
Yeah usually its not good to lynch a claimed blue day 1. If scum it forces them to produce results and stick to a claim and later in the game questions are raised as to why they are not dead yet. So yeah you don't lynch claimed blues day 1. Obviously this isn't in line with wbg's school of mafia thought though.
Yes that's exactly what i expect. On February 22 2012 07:21 redFF wrote:
If pretty much all the major town voices are intent on wagoning me then claiming at 24 hours in and giving us another 24 hours to set up a lynch seems like a pretty good time.
If i claimed with 12 hours left the wagon might have gotten too big and people may have not gotten back in time to unvote. All this seems weird to me. His defence seems to be focused around "Dont Lynch Me plzplzplz " instead of " I can still be usefull" and aroud " look I'm not scum" instead of "look I'm town". This makes me think he is scum. I'll be here until deadline, so my wote can still change if he somehow manage to convince me that he is not scum. But ragequitting makes me think that wont be the case. ##Vote redFF Is this the amount of effort you intend to put into this game as well or did you actually roll scuml? Just going to sheep bad wagons and not evaluate all the evidence? Have you read my thoughts on redff? Don't you find it weird that there is almost no resistance at all to the wagon? Your point about him claiming early isn't very good as redff gave a reasonable explanation for the claim and if he was scum, he could have fake claimed a better role anyway. It was likely that he was going to be forced to claim anyway at some point and claiming a bit earlier gives us time to discuss what we think about it. As his relatively early claim makes sense from point scum and town perspective and it's not really possible to determine which is more likely, it's a null tell. He can still be useful by being alive, tying roleblocker or even by taking a bullet. A tracker is not a DT in terms of usefulness. I may be wrong about redff and that's always the possibility in mafia, but the evidence suggests otherwise and as such you should be voting for someone else, preferably BC.
syllo I agree with most of what you are saying about Tyrran, but I think the bolded should be considered more carefully now.
Looking at the voting record, at the time you posted this BC only had about 3 votes. However, after that there was considerable resistance to the redFF wagon from what I can tell. BC got incredibly close to being lynched (which honestly in itself is retarded). So what's weird to find about this? Well, it for sure means one thing, and that's town was unsure of who to lynch. This leaves only two possibilities to me: both of redFF and BC are town, or one of them is scum.
IMO I actually like the idea that one of them is scum, because in light of that it makes the BC wagon make more sense. You started it, and people started sheeping it for dumb reasons (ex. prplhz, Dr. H) While I didn't agree with the rationale for calling BC scum, I didn't have a problem with there being an alternative. The problem was that people like prplhz and Dr. H sheeped it so quickly. This is indicative, in my opinion, of your wagon being used as a counter to redFF's. This is most likely if redFF was actually scum and BC town. I think it probably started out a bit slowly because BC is a relatively harder target to lynch than redFF. However I bet if redFF actually was scum then we are likely to find scum on BC's wagon.
I also disagree with you with regards to what he claimed, since we have no idea what the setup looks like. What better role could he have claimed? Claiming DT is practically the same (albeit a claim of a stronger role) and I can't think of anything else that for scum or town is completely neutral.
Also, I wanted to point this out:
On February 23 2012 02:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
"The wagon formed too fast" is not really an adequate rebuttal to the entire case that redFF is scum. I doubt he will come to defend himself, hasn't he ragequit the game because WBG called him bad? I'd expect there is resistance, but if scum plays that badly town can overwhelm the mafia resistance and in this case if I'm scum I'd be looking for an alternative lynch to push.
What's weird about Dr. H is that he's always straddling the line between calling redFF scum and not calling him scum.
Right here his vote is still on BC but he actually says "If I were scum i'd be looking for an alternative lynch to push."
Guess what BC's wagon was? The alternative lynch.
Most troubling is the fact that Dr. H's actions don't quite line up with his words. He's also quite wishy washy, never really taking a proper stance for or against one lynch or the other. Indeed at the end he switched back to redFF. He admits here that saying the bandwagon is moving too fast is not an adequate rebuttal to the case that redFF is scum. So if his vote was on BC why didn't he adequately rebut the case himself?
So far all I'm seeing from our resident doc is sheeping and lack of backbone.
|
I feel so aloooone
why is no one here when I'm here  damn the deadline being right before class ends
|
On February 23 2012 09:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I didn't sheep anybody. I made my case on BC well before I even read syllogisms original post. You're connecting points I'm making in specific reference to other peoples posts to unrelated ideas. I was trying to illustrate that the wagon forming quickly doesn't mean much. The scum don't need to defend redFF if they can get somebody else lynched.
I don't think my posts are wishy washy. I wasn't yelling in the thread for one person to get lynched over any other, but that can't really be defined as wishy washiness. I wasn't planning on rebutting the case on redFF because I never ever thought it needed to be rebutted. I voted for redFF in the end. I moved my vote to BC to put pressure on him and make sure he stays active in the thread, his responses satisfied me enough that I wanted to stick with my original convictions and give BC Day 2 to prove himself. Needless to say I'll be keeping a close eye on him.
Calling BC the alternative lynch is a non-point since his flip, or lack thereof, was inconclusive. You don't know whether or not he is scum, unless you are scum, so implying that it is a defensive alternative makes no sense as town especially considering redFF is the person I voted for.
I never called RedFF not scum. I never called him 100% scum. I said very clearly RedFF is likely scum or terrible town but his claim is poorly done and seems defensive. I was more than okay with the RedFF lynch, which seemed so likely to go through at the time I switched to BC to pressure another player I was suspicious of. Seeing as RedFF has been AWOL during this entire period, I feel I made the right choice. If I didn't think RedFF was very suspect, I would have been far more vocal in trying to get people to join a BC bandwagon but you will notice I did no such thing as far as I can recall anyway. That's as much as I'll say in the interest of defending myself.
This redFF "flip", or whatever it is, is inconclusive and I don't feel it necessary to comment on it further. I'll read filters when I have the time.
of course BC was the alternative lynch, you don't need flips to realize that there were pretty much only two realistic possibilities for lynch yesterday.
The fact that you seemed relatively aloof the entire time concerns me. Why does it seem that you cared so little about who we ultimately lynched?
|
On February 23 2012 09:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I never called RedFF not scum. I never called him 100% scum. I said very clearly RedFF is likely scum or terrible town but his claim is poorly done and seems defensive. I was more than okay with the RedFF lynch, which seemed so likely to go through at the time I switched to BC to pressure another player I was suspicious of. Seeing as RedFF has been AWOL during this entire period, I feel I made the right choice. If I didn't think RedFF was very suspect, I would have been far more vocal in trying to get people to join a BC bandwagon but you will notice I did no such thing as far as I can recall anyway. That's as much as I'll say in the interest of defending myself.
this right here is so politician-like it's scary.
You scum doc?
|
On February 23 2012 09:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:I'm trying to be calm, I'm certainly interested in what happens. Do you expect me to be screaming and spamming for scum on Day 1? I was for the RedFF lynch and changed my vote to pressure BC. I changed it back during a time when it could have very easily gone either way. If I feel incredibly strong about a lynch or a case I will take more time to read filters/the thread and push it harder. I felt pretty good about redFF. I didn't feel the need to use "backbone" to strong arm the lynch when it already had a huge majority of the votes. That's just noise. Especially when redFF isn't even responding. BC was the second lynch but when you use the word 'alternative' are you trying to imply that I was defending red by voting for BC? That I was doing the exact scum plan that I explained in my post? Why does it even matter if BC was the second bandwagon, that implies nothing about my alignment and has absolutely nothing to do with the original point I was making which was only about why scum would not need to act majorly defensive about RedFF or outwardly "resist" the bandwagon. I'm also not disagreeing that BC is the "alternate lynch", and I didn't say that. I said it was a nonpoint. It is the alternative lynch but it doesn't matter and gives you no information about my alignment. You're trying to make it look like I contradicted myself in this post: Show nested quote +"The wagon formed too fast" is not really an adequate rebuttal to the entire case that redFF is scum. I doubt he will come to defend himself, hasn't he ragequit the game because WBG called him bad? I'd expect there is resistance, but if scum plays that badly town can overwhelm the mafia resistance and in this case if I'm scum I'd be looking for an alternative lynch to push. when I did not. I don't need you to tell me how the votes happened, I'm aware of it and it doesn't help anybody. The fact that I second guess myself a lot might make me seem aloof. I'm just not going to call people stupid and spam worthless one-liners like "youre scum" over and over again. Usually I post a lot and it's very clear how my mind changes from thought to thought and is demonstrated throughout my posts (see: insane mafia 1, salem mafia) but I'm not gonna clutter up the thread this time. I told myself I wouldn't spam in Arkham City and that's exactly what I did. Do you have any other criticisms
I find it even funnier that you're basically flipping out when I've barely prodded you yet.
I haven't implied anything, yet you are jumping to conclusions. Immediately you jump to this conclusion:
BC was the second lynch but when you use the word 'alternative' are you trying to imply that I was defending red by voting for BC? That I was doing the exact scum plan that I explained in my post? Why does it even matter if BC was the second bandwagon, that implies nothing about my alignment and has absolutely nothing to do with the original point I was making which was only about why scum would not need to act majorly defensive about RedFF or outwardly "resist" the bandwagon.
Why do you seem so scared of me coming to this conclusion?
No one knows redFF's alignment, but you seem oddly fixated on the implications of that fact. It's as if you have knowledge that I don't. Why so quick to cover your ass when I haven't even fully accused you of anything?
haha I love when scummy people do the work for me
|
I wouldn't say today was a total wash. We ended up getting rid of someone who would've given townies headaches regardless of his alignment.
I'd say that's considerably better than lynching BC and then having him flip ??? and not knowing jack shit about whether we got rid of a dangerous scum or one of the better townies in this game.
Sure, BC probably isn't the best townie ever but he's definitely better than 90% of the players in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
