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On January 30 2012 16:49 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:45 Dirkzor wrote:On January 30 2012 16:40 prplhz wrote:On January 30 2012 16:19 Dirkzor wrote: I wanted to give palmar or LSB my vote - in that order. But figured that they would get a lot of votes anyway. Then i started to look for a less obvious townie.
I gave him 1 vote because i think he is town. I was just playing with him Purgatory (he was scum) where he played differently then what he does now. Can you tell me how he's playing differently and how this makes him more town? He is asking questions this game. He is writing statements. He have an opinion. While he is not the one with the most or longest posts his posts have had something to tell. In Puragtory he did not do any of those things. So your read on him is based completely around meta? I don't think that is a good idea tbh.
No? The things I wrote are all things I would like a townie to do.
This and he is behaving differently from Purgatory makes me think he is town.
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On January 30 2012 17:28 prplhz wrote: Your trade sticks out like a sore thumb. Look at everybody else who received VP:
I spearheaded the wherebugsgo lynch. Palmar spearheaded the VisceraEyes lynch, was a vocal opponent of the plans and heavily supported the wherebugsgo lynch. LSB did huge work on all of the plans and spearheaded [UoN]Sentinel lynch. risk.nuke has also been very vocal with plans and lynch. layabout has been very vocal and has stuck out to plenty of people. Paperscraps doesn't really matter because Palmar traded him and Palmar is a crazy man (and he's town).
Jackal58 has not been vocal at all.
Skimming his Purgatory filter, your meta description of him is plain wrong. Jackal58's scum play and his town play is very hard to tell apart. He didn't care about the lynch at all, he voted with a one liner on pure meta and left. You say yourself that you think that caring about the lynch is a town trait, then why did you give VP to a guy who seemingly didn't care about the lynch?
There's a reason you're thinking so differently from everybody else.
So because my reads are different from yours I'm scum? If his town and scumplay are hard to tell apart I might be right? I'm not saying that he is 100% town. I don't know what his allignment is but i can have a read.
The reasons all those people got votes are the same reason i did not vote on the obvious choice. Vocal != town... I would not be any bit surprised if Layabout is scum even though he is vocal. I did not want 1 bad read from the town as a whole ending up with a scum player with a high amount of votes.
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On January 26 2012 18:28 prplhz wrote: Everybody should give away as many votes as they can every day. This is a good idea because it will prevent scum from eliminating voting power through night kills, and voting power will only get eliminated through the lynch which is more likely to hit scum than night kills.
What changed your mind Prp?
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Just because palmar is almost certainly town does not mean his reads are correct. But how can you question his towness? I can't think of a scenario where scum would have the guts to not shoot, only so Palmar could claim to get jailed.
About LSB, who Palmar wants dead, and 2 more sheeped (wtf?):
He have been very vocal and active so he must be town - or what Prplhz? (joking)
What bothers me about his filter is that he have constantly been pushing his plans.
Plan 1 (click) was basicly the same idea that was already in the thread + the self correction mechanism.
Rough layout of Plan 2 (click)
Then he sees the light (click) as an explanition to why he changed from his plan 1 to plan 2. Is the same post he calls Sentinel scum for essentially supporting what was his Plan 1 (see spoiler below) + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 04:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On January 27 2012 02:57 Dirkzor wrote: @Lay
I don't know if you misunderstood the mechanic or I misunderstood your post. It IS possible to have more then 5 votes during the daytime. If everyone give their votes to palmar he could potentially have 31 votes day 2. Come night 2 he would have to give away atleast 24 votes to one person.
I think that paperscraps have a point that we need to agree on a method to control the votes.
1) and 2) are only viable for a short amount of time (as lay pointed out) but can be good in the start to keep votes spread out. 3) is the best way to continuosly keep track of where people put their votes. 3 takes more management, but will be better in the end. I suggest Day 1 and 2 circle trading to start stability, then once the game starts intensifying and we get more information we can switch to plan 3 when everyone's ready. Given that 1) is trading 1 vote and 2) is trading all but 1 vote, I'd have to go with 1 because if mafia somehow gets ahold of votes and don't give them away, we give them less VP to vote with and can stop them before it's too late. I don't like this post. In fact this plan is very bad. If I was mafia, I would love this plan and support it, because of an easy counterplan.First of all, look at the concept of stability. Sentinel proposes that stability is more important in the early game than in the late. This is very wrong. Stability is more important in the late game than in the early. In the early game, although it is bad if the mafia suddenly gets 5 extra vote power Day 2, we still have time to account for it. However if the mafia suddenly gets 5 extra vote power Day 3, it could suddenly lose the game. Day 1/2 we have the freedom to try to achieve information at the risk of loosing vote power, day 3/4+ we do not simply because there is the high chance of loss My plan accounts for that because it focuses on stabilizing the late game, after a very tumultuous night 1. Secondly, look at information. Sentinel makes the fundamental assumption that circle-jerking will provide meaningful information. It won't, but it will provide a lot of WIFORM. However vote transfers will always have lots of information because every vote transfer is known. People will need to account for their votes. Sentinel's plan achieves neither of his goals of stability. In fact, there is a very dangerous counterplan that guarantees mafia an overwhelming advantage day 3 Counterplan: Between Day 1 and Day 2, give town 1 VP, and give mafia 1 VP 1: All mafia live. N3 Mafia has 13 VP, town has 17 VP. If town gives up 2 VP. If one townies mistransfers, mafia wins2. 1 Mafia is lynched. N3 Mafia has 10 VP, town has 20 VP. If town gives up 5 VP, mafia wins. More likely, 1-2 townies will mistransfer leading to Mafia entering with 12-14 VP, and town having 15-16 VP. This sets up lylo as the town has to be unanimous in order to unseat mafia. I believe this flaw is intentional and therefore I have a Red read on Sentinel Conclusion: I should read the thread before posting. And ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel
Why is it that Sentinels logic is scummy when LSB himself had the same logic to begin with? In his 2nd case/post on sentinel he is even calling him scummy even though he changed his mind later on - the same way LSB saw the light and changed his mind when paperscraps called him out on it. Its a double standard at its finest.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 29 2012 07:11 LSB wrote:We have about 3 hours to get a lynch in and I will spend this time to push forth what I think is the best lynch, [UoN]Sentinel. I can see similarities between my mafia play in previous games and his play here. One of effective plays a mafia can do is to blatantly play for the mafia side. Sometimes town doesn’t notice, and sometimes a few people do notice but they don’t do anything till it’s too lateIn addition, this play is very effective for this setup, even if you are exposed, you could simply transfer 2 of your votes away to your team, minimizing a loss of a sacrifice. As I have stated here, the plans that [UoN]Sentinel proposes all have effective mafia counterplans: -Circlejerk is obvious, but mafia friendly -His wait 2 nights and then free trade is disastrous, and results in either a D2 or D3 lylo. -His wait 1 night is almost as bad, and put on shaky reasoning To say that I am ‘giving him too much credit’ or ‘he can’t possibly scheme that for ahead’, would be an unfair underestimation. His posts demonstrate he is capable of thinking ahead and the ability to formulate intricate counterplans. Although he had a change of heart in the later stages, this only happened after I called him out on his plan, and it is standard play to drop any obvious mafia tactics as soon as possible. Because of his blatant attempts to mislead the town, to me he is the most obvious mafia
I would not oppose a LSB lynch at this moment.
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I agree that either Palmar or VE have to die. Or both due to No flip.
I would vote VE now, but I don't want to hammer (my vote won't be the hammer i know) until everyone have had a chance to claim the hit on either one. If no one claims it could still be a scum nightvig. How likely do you find that mafia have a nightvig?
If no one claims the hit I think the jailer should claim. Because if no one claims the hit or the jail we would have lynch both to be sure.
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On January 31 2012 04:48 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 04:39 Dirkzor wrote: I agree that either Palmar or VE have to die. Or both due to No flip.
I would vote VE now, but I don't want to hammer (my vote won't be the hammer i know) until everyone have had a chance to claim the hit on either one. If no one claims it could still be a scum nightvig. How likely do you find that mafia have a nightvig?
If no one claims the hit I think the jailer should claim. Because if no one claims the hit or the jail we would have lynch both to be sure. Jailer should NOT claim.
Maybe you are right. I just don't like to guess about this with no flip involved.
VE looks way more scummy then palmar. Why not claim directly after night post? Why wait? Palmar posted instantly and VE have had more then enough time to think it over.
But I still hate being unsure. I'll mindfuck myself until the game ends =(
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I must say that it looks worse for VE the more he post. Why not claim Vet while he claimed to be hit... He seems desperate.
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On January 31 2012 05:54 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 05:46 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm a veteran. There was no save, I just absorbed a hit. Stop voting for me and vote for Palmar. He's manipulating you guys by bullying you into voting for me. Woah that's late. /kill discussion. Lynch now or tomorrow?
lol! That changed your mind? What about the late claim to get hit? Which was equally late. Yet you have been vague up until this post of VE. Just minute before you had yet to make up your mind...
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On January 31 2012 06:02 layabout wrote: Vicera i will hammer you in 90 minutes.
You can't. 6 votes needed. You have 5.
And i agree with Paper on this... Why the rush?
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Ninja'd. Now you can hammer, but I would like you to not do it. Or maybe you and LSB decided to give up VE in the scum QT so you knew you could hammer =)
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Well... Palmar should be happy...
While it was a choice between Palmar and VE i think we should have waited and heard more opinions. Well scum is scum as they say..
Still doing our own thing with the votetrade i suppose.
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I think Zbot is fucked. I just recieved confirmation for the vote trade i did last night. Should I ##Don't sendvote? Or is it reset and the confirmation PM is something I should ignore?
anyone else got a PM from zbot with confirmation of last night votetrade?
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We should kill layabout to end his misery =)
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My VP is not weird from my perspective. I genuinly think Jackal is town this game. I still think that and his last post just pointed me even more in that direction.
What i find weird about LSB is that he have fairly active in the beginning. Then Palmar started to accuse him and he have posted less and less and the stuff he have been posting have made little sense. The typo thing is just weird in my opinion.
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Well he could comment on the layabout talk. Which he haven't. He could have put thoughts into the VE lynch. Which he didnt (not much anyway).
He could also point out why we shouldn't shoot him - if we have a bullet. Same goes for Lay but he have gone insane anyway.
If you read page 14-15 with palmars scum team in mind it looks kinda agenda-pushing. VE, LSB and lay (and WBG) talk about circletrading. LSB put forth his plan and they all seem to agree its very good. Others also agreed it looks good (Jackal, Node, Meat, Sentinel) so I don't how usefull it is.
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What I find weird is that multiple people have called me scum with no reasoning at all.
Chaoser, node and Prp (he gave a little, but bad, reasoning)...
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The reason I did not want to vote was to not give someone else the oppotunity to hammer. I wanted the day to last longer and posted about that later aswell. That post you quoted about me criticizing VE was a post to Lay not VE. I also can't see why I was non-committal. I said I found VE way mroe scummy then Palmar and would put my vote on him - but didnt due to hammer mechanic.
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I agree. But the fact that you, layabout, can't come to the same conclusion yourself is a damning fact.
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Damn you guys! You did it again! >_<
I traded 1 vote to jay. The reason was to not stack votes on other townies and I have a green read on him.
I believe VE, lay and LSB was scum. WBG was not. So whos the last?
I got crossfit training now and when i come back i got some filters to read.
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Why the fuck would layabout give 4 votes to chaoser? Assume Chaoser is scum for now.
Before night 2 Layabout, LSB and Chaoser had:
chaoser (3) LSB (2) layabout (5) 8 votes in total.
We know Layabout somehow got vote he shouldn't. We know it fits the amount of votes (8/9 doesnt matter who LSB sent his vote to it would end up at Layabout either way) sent to palmar. We can assume that scum syphoned the votes traded to Palmar in order to gain the majority of the votes.
Trades night 2:
Sent: chaoser (3) -> 1 vote to palmar/layabout = 2 votes left LSB (2) -> 1 vote to palmar/layabout = 1 vote left layabout (5) -> 4 votes to chaoser = 1 vote left
Received: chaoser (3) + 4 votes from Layabout = 6 total LSB (2) + 0 votes = 1 total (0 as he died) layabout (5) + 9 votes (intercepted from palmar) = 10 votes
Had layabout only given away 1 vote or given his votes to palmar (thus giving to himself) layabout would have been on 14 or 15.
1) Why did he not send his votes to palmar - which meant himself? 2) Why did he not send to LSB? 3) Why did layabout not keep as many votes for himself as possible?
1) If Layabout was shot during night the votes would have probably ended at Palmar. Not a good situation for scum. 2) The pressure was on LSB and Layabout. If layabout had send votes to LSB it would just further incriminate the 2 as scumbuddies. Would not have been a problem had mafia gained majority but if they didn't the votes would be better on the last remaining scum. 3) Same as 1 and 2. If layabout was shot the votes would have been lost. It was the best of 2 worlds for scum to send the votes to chaoser. If they had gained majority it didn't matter where the votes where. If they didn't the remaining votes would be on the last scum who we hadn't caught on to yet (chaoser).
If scum were to use the most insanely overpowered powerrole in this game it would be insanely stupid of them to give AWAY votes.
Which is why chaoser is the last scum.
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