EPTTL Mafia XLVIII
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Toadesstern
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On December 03 2011 23:54 prplhz wrote: I think it's #/2+1 votes needed for a lynch. Kind of, it's # / 2 + 1 rounded down :p So if we got 20 people we need 11 on someone to get a vote, with 19 we need 10 to get a vote, with 18 people alive we need 10 to get a vote, with 17 we need 9 to get a vote and so on. That's it I think. | ||
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On December 03 2011 17:47 Incognito wrote: This is a closed setup. All you know is the following: Total Mafia = 5 Town win condition: You win when all threats to the Town are eliminated. Mafia win condition: You win when you control majority of the voting power in the Town or when nothing can stop you from outright killing everyone. Quick question: Do we get to know the possible roles once this starts? Seems like no according to my quote but the problem I got is that I simply don't know all roles by heart because this is going to be my 4th game and I think some people might have the same problem. If you don't want to make one example-text per role describing what it does because you don't want people to know what roles there are could you link some reference where to look those things up? I guess google would work fine but I just wanted to point out that it would be a nice addition if there's not going to be the usual role explanation | ||
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On December 04 2011 08:25 syllogism wrote: If it's a mafia role you can just ask in this thread I don't really plan on claiming on day1 though :p | ||
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On December 04 2011 23:03 Radfield wrote: Toad, what do you think is our best strat for finding a lynch today. Where does lurker lynching rank for you? On the random voting thing matter. I got to disagree as well. There's just no advantages imo. While I don't want to talk about the odds themselves because that's not going to help us I think the most weird thing about lynching someone rnd would be the possible information gain. There's just nothing we're getting out of it. The reason day1 is weird imo is because there's not much to go by just because there wasn't a confirmed flip yet so everyones kind of a coinflip. If we end up rnd-lynching we get to the exact same situation on day2. We got someone lynched who may be mafia or town but since it was a rnd-lynch there's not really much to read out of it. So I got to disagree here On the lurker question: My past 3 games I went something like that 1. Lynch a scummy lurker 2. Lynch someone scummy 3. Lynch a lurker While 1 is our best option imo and 3 is the thing we should go for when we got nothing really. The reason behind this is that it's going to improve town quality no matter what because we tell people to talk or they run the risk of getting lynched which is the only possibility for mafia to slip in the first place. Additionaly I think if we got some lurkers mafia may try to hide in there and let's face it, worst case in lynching a lurker is going to be a dead, useles townie which is still not as bad as lynching someone active who was helping town. | ||
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On December 04 2011 23:18 Radfield wrote: What about no lynching? That is an option in this set-up. Where would you rank it? Worst possible option imo. a no-lynch would just make mafia get a couple of freekills while we end up being in the same position we had problems with on day1 with less townies left. | ||
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Sure if palmar would make those statements or some of the other vets that'd be crazy but I think what happened so far was nothing special. I do not like the fact that so many people are not posting (or just posting a little). If someone wants my opinion on something that happened so far shoot me a question but as mentioned I haven't seen something scummy from vets yet and that stuff comming from people who are new or kind of new is more looking like townie who are just saying what they think right now. | ||
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On December 05 2011 07:55 vaderseven wrote: He mentions some truth and not so good things in a mixed up manner here. No lynches make day 1 worthless and the daytime is the time that the town has power. The town is an uninformed majority (or else the game is over) and a majority controls the lynch. In his list of 3 goals for day 1 I find goal 1 to be one that is there to just discredit aggressive players, point 2 is 100% correct and the only real goal, and point 3 is a neutral fall back thing to state as any alignment. He says a no lynch isnt the end of the world but then makes it clear how we should never start of thinking it is a goal. I really think he is trying to subtlety push this option. He doesn't want to get labeled as pushing it but is trying to bring up every small detail that can be viewed as positive for such a end to the day. His 2nd goal, the one that matters the most and is the most correct, is the one that he is not doing himself. I find that to be scummy as hell. He KNOWS the reasons for needed votes and cases and yet has a RNG vote (that he declared before making was worthless via stating that RNG isn't useful). I interpreted what he said as disagreeing with me and some other people who said a no-lynch is the worst possible option for town. I think he just wants to imply that a "probably-/maybe-townielynch" is worse than a no-lynch and I just don't think so. He wants to have this option as a final save I guess, instead of lynching someone he thinks is a townie. However I think he's wrong with that one because as far as I can see a no-lynch will be ruining town-atmosphere. A no-lynch happens when there's no majority so town splits up, which does not have to be the end of the world but if there's noone telling us which side was right it will give us a 2nd day that's just the very same discussion again, with everyone who thought his choice on day1 was right thinking his choice is still right and the other way arround. If that happens town atmosphere is really screwed imo. Happened 2 games ago to me and I don't want it to happen again. I was a blue in a beginners-mini and said something along the lines "everyone please start posting, no matter if you're blue or green we need you and if you're a blue trying to hide that really gives you away". So a bunch of people came along and said I'm scum because I'm telling blues to reveal themselves and they tried to lynch me and someone else. A no-lynch happened and we had the same scenario for 3 days until I got shot on night3 by mafia. Days 1 and 2 were wasted because there was a huge fight over who of us two is actually mafia, day 3 was wasted because of a shitty decision that had nothing to do with that. Sooooo, I don't really want that to happen again. | ||
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On December 05 2011 08:09 Toadesstern wrote: I interpreted what he said as disagreeing with me and some other people who said a no-lynch is the worst possible option for town. I think he just wants to imply that a "probably-/maybe-townielynch" is worse than a no-lynch and I just don't think so. He wants to have this option as a final save I guess, instead of lynching someone he thinks is a townie. However I think he's wrong with that one because as far as I can see a no-lynch will be ruining town-atmosphere. A no-lynch happens when there's no majority so town splits up, which does not have to be the end of the world but if there's noone telling us which side was right it will give us a 2nd day that's just the very same discussion again, with everyone who thought his choice on day1 was right thinking his choice is still right and the other way arround. If that happens town atmosphere is really screwed imo. Happened 2 games ago to me and I don't want it to happen again. I was a blue in a beginners-mini and said something along the lines "everyone please start posting, no matter if you're blue or green we need you and if you're a blue trying to hide that really gives you away". So a bunch of people came along and said I'm scum because I'm telling blues to reveal themselves and they tried to lynch me and someone else. A no-lynch happened and we had the same scenario for 3 days until I got shot on night3 by mafia. Days 1 and 2 were wasted because there was a huge fight over who of us two is actually mafia, day 3 was wasted because of a shitty decision that had nothing to do with that. Sooooo, I don't really want that to happen again. Actually I think i was a VT that game and a blue the game before that. Not important at all but I guess I should say it nevertheless :p | ||
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On December 04 2011 19:38 Palmar wrote: Sup. If we assume the hosts went with the most obvious way of balancing the game, two people out of this list are scum: Radfield Palmar Jackal sandroba syllogism redFF However I would never agree with lynching based on how we perceive the hosts balance games. They could just as well have randomized it or used some other method to balance it. What I'm more interested in is that 6/25 seems like an oddly high number of mafia for a normal setup. Do you think this is offset by lower mafia KP or multiple town power roles? In addition, how would you feel about randomly lynching on day 1. I mean completely random, we just have some kinda rng generator choose our lynch for the day. Could someone explain what you think his intentions are here? I thought this idea is terrible and there's no way palmar really is suggesting that one. So I thought maybe it's thought to be some kind of trick question? Especially because of what he said later on:+ Show Spoiler + On December 04 2011 22:21 Palmar wrote: Because I knew what your answer would be, but I was unsure how it would be formulated. Your chosen path was to to deny it decisively without trashing the idea. Which is interesting. You could've been much more careful or much more aggressive, you could have absolutely trashed the idea, or you could have carefully denied it. I'm not sure how to read it though. What made you initiate a discussion with me? Normally you just call me annoying until you figure out if I'm town or scum. I mean, I have done the same thing with sandroba, but what factors control your choice of target (me) and your change in play? He said he knew the answer and just wanted to see the kind of reaction to read if someone is bashing it, perhaps to see if someones trying to bus or if someone agrees to it? Is there something I'm not getting because again I don't get why palmar should suggest such a thing, which is the reason I think it's weird because I think he should know himself that this idea is weird. both as mafia and town. Which makes me think it got a special purpose like I mentioned, which is either a way to hunt scum (which would clear him as a green) but that's wifom again or something I'm missing right now. | ||
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For that reason it'd probably be a lurker right now because again, so far I think those mistakes which happened (or those things I thought are mistakes) are mistakes by new players who are town for the first or second time. If you want me to give you a name I'd have to read a couple filters again but I'd obviously rather see peoples reaction before lynching them. So nothing I'd say would be for granted | ||
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On December 05 2011 09:35 Erandorr wrote: Okay Radfield, this is starting to give me a bad feeling. I first noticed it when you stated that you feel like a good town atmosphere includes no arguments. You are doing a great job involving a lot of people in the conversation, but it is really, really easy to look town when there is actually not that much to comment on and scum are in no way forced to reveal information. What we have right now is a very peaceful town, but not one that is looking like it is gaining a lot of information anytime soon and you are doing very little to change that. Would you mind sharing your thoughts now, so they can be discussed and we get a better sense of your alignment at the same time? yeah thought it's weird too but and actually palmar said something along those lines as well earlier: On December 04 2011 23:09 Palmar wrote: Establishing your innocence is the first priority over anything else. If you scumhunt, you might catch scum If you establish your innocence you won't be lynched. If all townies won't be lynched, then the game has been solved. So yes, that should be syllos and everyone else's main concern. Again I'm just not agreeing with that one. I could see that one right on day 2 or 3 but on day1? Especially with so little information? Right now everything some said would have been an easy post for mafia as well. There's no real accusations and nothing. Maybe I am interpreting it wrong because I think what I quoted got 2 possibly ways of interpreting it, but I'd rather hear what they got to say about that than give them a possible answer to go by. | ||
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##Vote Palmar | ||
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On December 05 2011 10:52 prplhz wrote: People who have disappointed me with their activity so far: StimilantE: Is this guy even /in? I checked his filter and there was no /in post. Is this guy in and does he even know it? If you are, then start posting, your XLVII lurking will not go in this game. sandroba: Radfield also pointed this out. You said before we started that you wanted to try a new play style, can you tell us about this? It sounded a lot more exciting than you have shown so far. hyshes: Well it is your birthday so I suppose I'll cut you some slack. Soap: No posts. Mattchew: Joking around and being useless. If you don't know what to talk about then you probably haven't read the thread. If you have, then post here and encourage people to ask you stuff and maybe you'll get lucky. I don't know if that's helpful or not but my thoughts about hyshes are, that he's a townie right now. What people are criticizing about him right now is the fact that he voted so early without a proper case I think. Look up the last game (the big 80 player game), he did the exact same thing on day1 and was green or blue I think. So I guess he think's it's a good move to pressure someone early on to start discussion. Actually the first time that happened was even another game ago when some guy called Zanfada did the exact same thing and hyshes or someone else pointed it out as weird (because the guy did not know you're able to unvote, yeah a beginners-game). Then Zanfa went ahead and explained it's good for town to vote lurkers or people who are not contributing early on to make them talk. I figure he picked it up in that game because Zanfada was town as well. I know it's just meta but I think it's exactly the same he did last 2-/3 games. He could just do the same as a red but to me it's nothing suspicious because he does that as town as well. Just pointing it out because you vets probably don't know us new guys by now, maybe it's helpful because again, I got no reason to think he's mafia right now based of that one thing. People called it out in the last game too, I told them that's what he does and I was right as well. | ||
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Palmar could you explain that one: On December 04 2011 23:09 Palmar wrote: for me?Establishing your innocence is the first priority over anything else. If you scumhunt, you might catch scum If you establish your innocence you won't be lynched. If all townies won't be lynched, then the game has been solved. So yes, that should be syllos and everyone else's main concern. Stilled bugged me because finding out who's town day1 may sound easy because these things are easier to spot than scummy things but is it really going to happen? What I said about this is that I could easily agree on that one on day 2 or day3, however on day1 I just think there's so much stuff that could make a red look pro-town as well. | ||
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On December 05 2011 20:03 Palmar wrote: It isn't going to happen lol... this is assuming 100% ideal play from town. But the theory still works, if you establish your innocence, you've removed one town player from the pool of players that will potentially be lynched, and this statistically increased the chances of town lynching scum. The more town players that establish their innocence, the less chance town has of hitting town. Should be simple enough. Well the problem I got was that it just looked like telling people to post pro-town and trust those who are posting pro-town. It just strikes me that you seem to want circle of confirmed townies, which is absolutly awesome but there's just so little (confirmed) information right now that I'm not sure what to think about it. Surely you're not telling people to blindly trust someone because of his day1 actions but that's what I thought when I read that post of yours. Also is that VisceraEyes (that's VE I guess?) something like a known player? I actually thought he might be a new guy having something like his 1st, 2nd or 3rd game and therefore is just overeager in finding red but if this guy is someone as good as the rest of the vets in this game it really does look strange. | ||
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On December 05 2011 01:57 TruthBringer wrote: @prplhz We don't have to do anything on the first day. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. I admit that we have more data if we hang someone, because we can see that person's alignment and who voted for him and who voted elsewhere. But more data doesn't mean we are in a better position. If we hang a powerful blue, and the mafia isn't overrepresented in the vote to lynch him, that does us no good. You seem to think that I can pick out scum just based on bad ideas, but some people are just not good players or come up with bad plans, how am I to know the difference? Like I said, I don't have the experience right now to make the distinction. Also, there can be differences of opinion. You and I might both be good guys and honestly have different opinions on whether it is a good idea or bad idea to hang on the first day. On December 05 2011 12:36 TruthBringer wrote: Okay, prplhz "voted" for me in this thread. He never voted for me in the voting thread even though I reminded him to in this thread. (See page 9). The way I see it is this . . . he leaves less evidence behind if he doesn't vote for me in the actual voting thread. The voting thread will end up being fairly short, easy to read through. Whereas this thread is already becoming a bear. He was hoping to start a tidal wave against me and it didn't work out, and so he never actually voted for me in the voting thread. He doesn't want to come off as a frequent vote changer, etc. I think it is pretty scummy that he would so quickly vote for me in this thread, but not follow-up on it in the voting thread even after I reminded him to. First of all, that's basicly everything he said so far. Now on to what he said. Quote1: He said that not doing a thing might be a good idea. Read: While people like radfield ar saying something along the lines "guys, a no-lynch is not the end of the world" TruthBringer looks like he wants us to chill and do nothing. Maybe Radfield is right, maybe a nolynch is not the worst thing that could happen to town but I sure as hell don't want it to happen, neither do I want an atmosphere of "let's just chill we don't have to do something right now". More data is not always good? Well yeah if someone is bombing the thread and 3 pages in a row would be only posts from one guy, that probably would not help at all, but other than that I'd actually like to have a lot of data for several reasons. First of all a lot of data means our reads are better because there's always strange things. As he said, some people are maybe new, some may just have another opionion about some topic, that doesen't necessarily mean they're scum. If I find someone saying something that is wrong in my opinion I'll call him out. If I find someone who is doing illogical stuff several times that's bad, if I find someone who's doing illogical stuff all the time I want him to hang. So more information gives us a better read because it tells me if that guy is consistent, no matter in which direction. If I get less posts from someone that means that both my reads could be wrong because makeing a single good or bad call isn't something special at all. Also More data means more talk. If you tell people we don't need to talk mafia is not talking at all which means you're denieing them the chance to make mistakes. Paragraph2.5 He's scared to hang a blue. Why is that? Sure I don't want to hang a blue but I guess those people can defend themselves if we're fosing them. Why even mentioning blues in the first place? It's not like we're less likely to lynch a blue because you said that. His 3rd paragraph is kind of a nulltell. I mean that's basicly what mafia is about, figureing out if people did a mistake because they thought they're right or if they did it on purpose. 4th paragraph is another nulltell. On to the second quote: The quote itself is not strange. However he is contradicting everything he said in quote 1 here. | ||
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##Vote Truthbringer | ||
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On December 05 2011 22:44 supersoft wrote: So do you think it's superior to be passive as scum compared to actively organising the discussion? I don't like your logic right there - I grant you that this assumption is widely spread among us TL-players - but it's wrong. WBG for example is extremely active as scum and because of that a very good scumplayer. Syllo is smart enough to try a new style as scum. agree. That post is completely empty. All you prove is that Truthbringer is a newbie. We already know that. That's a horrible reasoning for voting someone!!! It's not priving truthbringer is a newbie what I'm about, it's abut he wanting everything a mafia would ask for. Therefore I voted him to get some pressure and tell him I think otherwise. If he comes in this thread to explain his thoughts and why he thinks a town with less information is a good town I'm willing to change my vote if it sound reasonable. I want those people who are not posting at all to start posting and truthbringer is one of them. | ||
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The only one who said it's fine was wbg after I said I should post less in a postgamediscussion | ||
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About the palmar vote, did you read my thoughts there because it was something like that as well. I quoted 2 weird things from palmar and let's be honest he's playing weird this game so I wanted to have him respond. He did explain what I quoted and I'm fine with that at the moment. Although I still don't know what to think about his rnd thing right now. I doubt a mafia palmar would do such a thing but at the same time I doubt a town palmar would do such a thing. Both are kind of a process of learning which I already stated earlier this game. Last game (that 80 player thing) I called out erandorr several times becaue I thought he's fishy but it's not enough to get him lynched. In the end everyone ended up ignoring what I said, even erandorr and I ended up seeing him red. So I'd like people to not ignore those things this game. With a vote I am at least getting the attention from the guy I'm voteing. | ||
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On December 05 2011 23:54 hyshes wrote: Nice way to create a base to try to lynch those guys on day 2.. Anyway, I'm sorry for my current inactivity. It's my birthday and there was a supriseparty yesterday. Today i have dinner with friends so won't be posting much either. I thought i would only lose 1 night due to my birthday (tonight) but a supriseparty made that 2. I read through the thread and have a question. The palmar case seems to be a gathering of little things to me, could someone (preferable one of the voters) explain the case to me? well in my opinion the palmar case is kind of wifom. As mentioned I don't think a mafia palmar would suggest such a thing as a rnd vote because he should know that it's weird to say the least. So the first thing I thought was that he must be scum and like realized that it might be wifom because of that. Therefore I voted him to get a little bit more information to evaluate what he's doing atm because it's strange for sure. | ||
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On December 05 2011 23:57 Toadesstern wrote: well in my opinion the palmar case is kind of wifom. As mentioned I don't think a mafia palmar would suggest such a thing as a rnd vote because he should know that it's weird to say the least. So the first thing I thought was that he must be scum and like realized that it might be wifom because of that. Therefore I voted him to get a little bit more information to evaluate what he's doing atm because it's strange for sure. EBWOP ah crap copy & past ruined my phrase well in my opinion the palmar case is kind of wifom. As mentioned I don't think a mafia palmar would suggest such a thing as a rnd vote because he should know that it's weird to say the least. So the first thing I thought was that he must be town and realized that it might be wifom because he should know that as well which could make him scum as well.Therefore I voted him to get a little bit more information to evaluate what he's doing atm because it's strange for sure. | ||
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On December 05 2011 23:58 supersoft wrote: toadesstern: "I doubt a town palmar would do such a thing." don't doubt that. Townpalmar is very ambitious to win his games. Right now I don't see where this is going what he does. that's exactly my point. Therefore I'd like to have some information on him and asked him out about it. | ||
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##Unvote Truthbringer Secondly I just have no idea what's going on right now. I'm not going to vote for v7 because I can see how he did that as a townie. I mean seariously Palmar, you told the guy to shoot a rnd-vote of yours which you got from your mate as well. You're telling him that his target was bullshit? Really? I do not know what palmars intentions are. Sure he probably wanted to get those notes like he said but he's been trolling the thread since he made his very first post and I want that to stop. I'm going to be on for a couple more hours, won't be here for the deadline so if there's some fancy as hell plan you got to tell us sometimes soon or I'll either vote you or someone kinda-lurking that is slightly scummy because frankly you did a great job giving mafia a nice oppertunity to join without a problem. Sure noone could have seen that comming but right now I can understand both sides to a point. That is I still think palmars move was bullshit but I could see him doing such a crazy thing to manipulate (?) as both town and mafia because from what I saw the last game he likes to be a leading role in townplay. About the rest: I would be willing to lynch hier or lanaia as well, but it's just a huge clusterfuck right now. Hyshes still is a mayor green read for me Truthbringer is kind of green for me now as well. Someone I left out who might be an option? Summary: Palmar, hier or maybe lanaia. I'm feeling hier is scummier than lanaia and palmar is just something weird I can't judge. Judging him tomorrow is ok I guess. | ||
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On December 06 2011 08:43 syllogism wrote: I'll be around for an hour or two so you have until then to push for a candidate Radfield if you want my vote. If there are any other Europeans who have to leave, switch away from Palmar because that lynch isn't happening and we aren't no lynching today if we can avoid it. There is no town reason not to comply with this request, even if you somehow are certain that Palmar is mafia, so I expect everyone to comply. Toadesstern you aren't voting for anyone. I know I'm still considering my vote since I unvoted sometime ago. I got to the conclusion that v7 is town and palmar probably is as well, still pretty unreadable for me to be honest but I'm leaning towards troll on purpose to survive night 1. Since he claimed I'd like to see that claim to be correct and am willing to judge him based off what he's doing day2. If he thinks he needs to troll to survive day1 I want to see his day2 as well. If he's not going to change that I want to see him hang. If he changes and gives us some proper reads that's awesome. The only two people left I'd support a vote right now would be hier or lanaia. I said I'm leaning towards hier and with 2 vets agreeing that lanaia might not be the best lynch today I'm going to stick with hier if nothing changes. The problem I have with hier is that I don't see a lynch happening, he got 1 vote right now, with me that'd be two votes and as mentioned I still don't want a no-lynch- | ||
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his day2 as well = his day2 analysis as well | ||
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##vote Hier | ||
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On December 06 2011 09:19 Zephirdd wrote: "Majority" could be either "More than half" or "Most votes", depending on interpretation. Can someone clarify that, or am I just bad at English? :| is means that you need one more than half of every player to get a lynch. So yeah ( # / 2 rounded down ) +1 Examples: A town with 10 people alive needs 6 on ONE guy to get him lynched. A town with 9 people alive needs 5 on ONE guy to get him lynched. I'm no host but that's what extended majority lynch is as far as I know | ||
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Simple majority lynch would be "the guy who got the most votes gets lynched" | ||
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Also let's just think about that double vote for a second. That could be just some weird trick to get controle of town again. Something along the lines "I got 2 votes, if you want to avoid a no-lynch you better vote what I want". Just a though. Still standing by my decision to let palmar live for today and judge him by what he does day2 but if there's no anon vote like Palmar said I want this guy to die. | ||
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On December 06 2011 09:37 supersoft wrote: sorry, i got to sleep now. I am suspicious of sandroba. But my vote will go on Erandorr. I think he lied about his illness. I think he's playing Dota2 instead of contributing. He played the exact same way in xlvii and i won't let him get away with that this time. I know he can do it better. ##vote: Erandorr I do agree that a vote on erandorr might be an option as well but I just don't think we're going to get 13 votes on him. If there's people willing to vote erandorr please say something because we really need to get something going tonight! | ||
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On December 06 2011 09:40 Palmar wrote: It doesn't get counted until incognito notices my pm. what about your normal vote? Do you get tell him both votes? Can you still switch? Do you have to do a normal vote in the thread + pm him his your second vote? Can you vote 2 seperate people? I'm assume it's not going to work the way v7's vig was used because what use would there be in a anon-vote if you have to call it out openly :p | ||
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Actually there is one vote called "palmar" on V7 and one vote called Anon on hier according to my list, which isn't exactly what he wanted to do. | ||
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On December 06 2011 10:14 Drazerk wrote: How does it HAVE to be palmar? It can be one of his scum buddies helping him. That's not the important point although that's right. The important point is that people pointed out the role palmar claimed does look like a mafia role. So his claim could be right and he could still be a mafia. However I still think we can get a vote on Lanaia going and see what we do with Palmar on day2. He's not having an easy spot right now and he is screwing day2 he's dieing 100%. ##Unvote ##Vote Lanaia | ||
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On December 06 2011 16:52 Drazerk wrote: I told you he would escape the lynch only to lynch a townie it happens every time -.- I CLAIM ROLEBLOCK IMMUNE MEDIC ...who has to claim night one. Going away for next few hours do your worst scum. quick question: Why did you claim? Is your roleblock immune medic also immortal? About palmar: I still think he's probably town and his role is confirmed since the anon-vote appeared. However people have been saying this role is a mafia role, it could be very well a mafia palmar who just claimed his real role because he's able to prove it. So I'm not going to trust palmar unless he makes some good moves this day. | ||
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On December 06 2011 22:41 Zephirdd wrote: There is the possibility that he is a Jack of All Trades that has to claim every night the role he wants to be. That's what I could make of that at least. mmh not much info about that role on a wiki as it could be anything. However v7 claimed something along those lines. He said his role was called jack and you just brought it up. So v7's dayvig called jack is a jack of all trades? Conclusion: Palmar is what he claimed and not a jack. He some hints by v7 all telling him that his claim was right if he'd be a jack as well and he didn't catch those. So I'm going to say palmars claim is right | ||
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On December 06 2011 22:52 prplhz wrote: @Palmar What about his timings during this whole dayvig thing. You retract your dayvig claim here and he absolutely knows this because he asks you if you retracted and then you answer "yes". After that has been established he goes on to shoot Soap even though he says here that he will shoot only if is closed to being lynched. I am really interested in hearing vaderseven's reason for why he shot Soap when he was absolutely certain he wasn't in any immediate danger, going against what he had previously said about his shot, because this is very scummy to me. I don't see why a townie would shoot in this situation. Even though he hasn't played on this forum a lot, vaderseven is a veteran with years of experience. If he was townie he would have kept his head cool and then he would have listened to other people for opinions on who to shoot. If he is scum he in a pretty bad situation, and he has following options:
If he is town, why the hell didn't he wait for people to show up and tell everybody to calm down? Why didn't he want to listen to other people's opinion, but instead he went all vigilante? I think that this would be the only way for a townie to handle this situation when he's not actually in immediate danger. I don't agree with your idea that vaderseven would have waited around for whatever people said in QT, this was an ideal situation for scum vaderseven to get his shot off without being held very much accountable, and I'm pretty sure that town vaderseven would have kept his cool in this situation. You're all saying he knew that nothing was going to happen and everybody was already cooling down and told him he does not have to do a thing. That's a lie. Yes Palmar said he's not a dayvig, still he pushed for his notes. Now that's what hit the board 60-120 secs before he typed his kill-command: Klick me! Sure it's from supersoft but still, that's what triggered him I think. Sure palmar said he's not a dayvig but ss coming in there saying "ok awesome now shoot someone or you're dead" is not exactly helping him or anyone who's trying to arguee that v7 did not have to shoot. That's what I think. He f5ed, he saw that and maybe he was a little bit scared, maybe a lot pissed and he shot. I would have shot ss or palmar after that post from ss as well. The only thing that's weird is the soap decision but since soaps together with palmar and ss in this I can see this as reasonable. my2 cents about that story because I think those people trying to tell us "there was no need to shoot" are lacking context big time | ||
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On December 06 2011 23:19 Palmar wrote: Why didn't you tell us before you shot Soap? There is literally no harm for town to simply chill for an hour and ask the people who are very likely to be town if Soap is a good shot. well it's a tricky situation I guess. Just think about it, the guy just claimed dayvig (which is the only mistake he did imo) so he had to shoot at some point, Sadly that point was day1. I wouldn't trust 3 guys who threaten to kill me, so he obviously was not going to listen to a thing you guys said. Probably the rest would have told him to not shoot so early. So he had to make that decision on his own. | ||
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On December 07 2011 00:20 Palmar wrote: Why didn't he ask the rest then? I wanted him to shoot Drazerk, who I think is mafia. because supersoft pushed him to shoot someone now or he's dead and he snapped. You pressured him like crazy and you're asking why he did not act calm and not-hasty? Well guess what, because someone put a gun to his head. Yes it was an overreaction of his, but that doesn't change a thing. There was no point in pressuring him the way you did unless you were certain his claim was a lie. Why would you try to pressure a town-vig that's just not makeing sense at all. Or do you want to tell me you had a scum read about V7 before all that happened? He looked town to me, although that might be a nullread after his last game where even mafia thought he's a townie. But did you have anything that made you think he's a liar or a scum to justify what happened? Just to get this clear: I think you're both townies and you screwed up big time. Palmar tried some omgus plan that backfired because he happened to target a day-vig and V7 overreacted, now get over it. | ||
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[B] So far my reads aren't consolidated, mostly because I fail to make notes about my feelings when reading. *sigh* slow night is slow, if anyone want my opinion on any subject feel free to ask -_-' What are your thoughts on VisceraEyes so far? Especially given his most recent activity? | ||
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On December 07 2011 10:08 Lanaia wrote: Zephirdd, what do you think we can do about the lurkers? Anything we can use as a pester ball to lure them out of hiding? Actually, there aren't even that many. What do you think about Radfield's play? Mind if I jump in there and give my 2cents? I think you got to differentiate between day- and night-lurkers. This whole "we should not post that much at night" is quite commong and there's just so many people who are not contributing or barely contributing at all. As long as they start posting the next day again I'm fine with it although I share opinions with VisceraEyes about talking at night. He is kind of overdoing it. Sure some people are answering him but most stuff comes from him and as I see it I won't get much out of people the way he's doing it right now. If you want to discuss about something by all means I'm hear for another hour or so to talk :p | ||
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On December 07 2011 10:19 VisceraEyes wrote: Define 'overdoing it' Toads. If by overdoing it you mean 'airing all of my thoughts completely before day breaks' then yeah, guilty as charged.  Well I just found out if people don't want to talk they're not going to talk no matter how much you try to get them involved. Sure you can try and if you would not have tried I would have at some point, but after several points I thought that people just don't want to talk a lot at night and neither of us is able to change that. | ||
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On December 07 2011 11:40 Radfield wrote: Unfortunately when you claimed your role was called 'Jack', you did in fact claim JOAT. On this forum, those two words are almost interchangable. From PYPI, which Incog hosted: If what you quoted is right I want a medic on V7 ASAP instead of the watcher. I'm going to highlight the important part right now Jack - [/QUOTE]Of all trades, master of none. You may use up to six abilities from other roles in the game however you are restricted to the very same rules that apply to them when you use them. You may not use the same role in two consecutive day/night cycles in a row. The following roles you may use are: Vigilante, Day Vigilante, Detective, Medic, and Bulletproof. You may not use two in one cycle (ie: Detective during day, Medic during night). If you use the veteran one night and take a hit, you cannot use it again and absorb another hit. It is a one time only deal. If what I highlighted is true there is NO WAY mafia will roleblock him. V7 already shot so according to your link he can't do a thing this night which makes a RB useless. So imo he's going to die withouta medic protection. | ||
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On December 07 2011 11:42 Radfield wrote: Actually, reading over that description I just realized you cannot self protect tonight, because you used your dayvig today. Draz, I think you should be protecting v7 tonight. If he dies, it's on you. Awesome, got ninjaed by you and you didn't even mess up the quote :p If V7 dies tonight draz is a liar or red. Someone agreeing there? If V7 survives I'm willing to believe his claim which I am not right now. | ||
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On December 07 2011 20:38 Radfield wrote: Palmar, I don't think it all that heinously unlikely a town medic would target annul. However, 2 people claiming roleblock seems too high, which makes me think we might have a jailkeeper. But of course if we have a jailkeeper we don't have 2 medics. More importantly, does Annul look like scum? I honestly can't tell. I can certainly see a lot of mafia motivation in his posts and actions(jumping on Palmar, casting suspicion on me multiple times, thinking Soap was red and then getting super upset when he died), but his tone looks genuine. I actually agree here. If I were a medic I probably would have protected rad or annul. I was sitting there yesterday, looking at rads list and thoubt about our options. Syllo was kind of weird. Everyone said he's doing fine but I can't see a lot he did for town, so he was a nullread for me. Palmar was not going to be shot no matter what. He screwed day1 and still a lot of people think he's mafia (he calls them bad but players but still). Why would mafia want to hit that? What's left on rads list would be me, rad and annul. As I'm talking about what I would have done as medic I obviously am not able to protect myself. So it would be either rad or annul. Yeah a close one, I think rad's more important if he's town but some people attacked him and called him out. While palmar gets called out mostly by new players those guys who question his style are more experienced players. I think red, jackal and erandorr kinda-a-fosed him? So I'd either protected rad or hoped they let him live because there's some people attacking him. This goes out to V7: Annul claimed he got shot and protected. Did you get shot and protected? Dza... already claimed he protected you so if you got shot as well it would be some weird 3KP mafia + vigi which makes 4 KP (syllo, ss, annul, V7). Right now it looks like annul was the 3rd KP of mafia or shot by a vigi or he's a liar. Your answer to that question would at least give us some information V7. | ||
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On December 07 2011 22:47 Palmar wrote: Syllo was far more pro-town than anyone else on Rad's list. I think I said back on day 1 I was willing to sheep him because I had a strong town read on him. As for the v7 thing, that doesn't even make sense. v7 would already have claimed it if he was hit. Trust me on this one, mafia does not have 3kp in this setup. They have 2kp and annul was shot by a vigilante, and I think that vigilante was mr. syllogism. Why do you think mafia got 2KP? The usual thing is (#mafia / 2) rounded up so I thought it's not that far-fetched to believe they got 3KP. Also vigi's can't shoot n1 can they? Last game (the 80player thing) I was a vigi for the first time and it specifically said I can't shoot n1 and I had to wait until n2 to shoot the fuck out of Drazerk. | ||
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On December 07 2011 22:57 Palmar wrote: The usual amount of mafia in a 25 player game is 5, which is probably why we have things like my double vote, as the mafia are 6 in this game. [...] Do mafias have 2 KP like you said in those 25v5 setups or 3KP? That's the important question. | ||
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On December 07 2011 23:03 Palmar wrote: in 20 vs 5 mafia usually has 3 kp until 1 mafia is dead, although it's not a rule. in 19 v 6, I have a hard time mafia KP rule applies because it means we'd have to kill 2 mafia to get it down to 2 kp. O right, I took those 25for townies for some reason. Yeah obviosuly 20v5 is easier than 19vs6 because it's one townie more and one mafia more. So yeah my bad that makes much more sense now. | ||
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Drazerk claimed he's a RB-immun-Medic that has to claim n1 as far as I recall. At least that's the reason he claimed I think. He said he protected V7 and yet we have, according to annul a successful save that's not V7. So that means we got a 2nd medic in this game if both claims are correct. The 2nd medic however does not seem to have to claim like Drazerk did. On top of that I still think mafia would like to get something like V7's role out of this game. A dayvig that's able to also do other stuff is pretty awesome. Radfield already mentioned the Chances of a Mafia visit on V7 are like 99%. Do you really think mafia let's a claimed blue role that has already proven that he's not bullshitting alive? | ||
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On December 07 2011 23:21 Palmar wrote: Drazerk's claim may as well be bollocks. If you think I troll mafia games, you should read Drazerk's history of playing. It doesn't even tell us anything about his alignment if he's lying. However, after what has happened I'm more willing to believe he's not scum, although trying to tell his alignment is kinda.... meh. To be honest I thought he's either a VET or a VT trying to catch some bullets if he's town. At least that's what I thought from the very beginning. Someone already pointed it out: If a single person is able to see something, mafia is probably able to see it as well so while I did not say a thing yesterday to see if it works I don't have a problem with telling you what I think about him now. If he's not town he's strange :p So sum it up: I'm not believing a word Drazerk said. | ||
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On December 07 2011 23:15 Toadesstern wrote: Ok next thing came to my mind: How likely is it that there's two different medic roles in this game? Drazerk claimed he's a RB-immun-Medic that has to claim n1 as far as I recall. At least that's the reason he claimed I think. He said he protected V7 and yet we have, according to annul a successful save that's not V7. So that means we got a 2nd medic in this game if both claims are correct. The 2nd medic however does not seem to have to claim like Drazerk did. On top of that I still think mafia would like to get something like V7's role out of this game. A dayvig that's able to also do other stuff is pretty awesome. Radfield already mentioned the Chances of a Mafia visit on V7 are like 99%. Do you really think mafia let's a claimed blue role that has already proven that he's not bullshitting alive? I don't think so in general. Now let's think of some possible solutions to that problem: #1 V7 is Mafia - I don't think so. If you seriously want me to give more details on this, look up my filter and search for V7 or V7's (real) name and what I said about him #2 Drazerk is Mafia - If Drazerk is mafia they can't "just" kill V7 because everyone would see that Drazerks claim was a lie because V7's dead would prove there was no protection on him although we told Drazerk to do so. Therefore they need V7 alive or Drazerk is dead as well. Actually I can't think of something else that's makeing sense atm. | ||
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On December 08 2011 00:05 vaderseven wrote: [...] Again, toad, you are trying to look to closely at the night kills. Scum killed some town players. End of (useful) story. Well that and the claims we got is the new information we got so I think talking about it isn't bad and since it I really don't think my #1-option is a possibility I think it's a piece of the puzzle. I'm totally agreeing that what I just said about Drazerk is not strong enough of a case to say he's something like a confirmed mafia but it could be a part of it that adds up. But I got to say I AM suspicious of Drazerk. There's some people who already pointed out he's looking weird. Maybe that's the reason he did a claim idk. And I still don't believe a word he's said so far. That's already 3 pieces for me. Sure none of them is a strong case on its own but together I think we got AT LEAST enough to look closer at what he's doing today and what he's done so far. | ||
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On December 08 2011 00:20 Palmar wrote: Hey Mattchew, vote annul. stop it for christs sake. The last time you tried to force someone to do something a townie got shot. You're still suspicious for a bunch of people and you're telling people to focus votes on someone just right after the day started? I do agree that what you said is not bullshit (like what you said d1) but I'd like to hear people thoughts and see what they bring in our discussion. | ||
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On December 08 2011 00:26 Mattchew wrote: your making it extremely hard even though I agree votes should be on annul until someone steps up and claims they protected him noone will do such a thing. A medic is either happy becase he's a townie and thinks he saved someone or a medic is happy because he's a mafia and saved his buddy. If the medic claims he's shot n2. | ||
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I don't the fact that those people pushing for annul are ALL suspicious + Show Spoiler + On December 07 2011 20:23 Drazerk wrote: ##Vote Annul On December 07 2011 22:48 Palmar wrote: ##Vote annul On December 08 2011 00:27 Erandorr wrote: ##Vote Annul On December 08 2011 00:51 sandroba wrote: ##Vote: Annul On December 08 2011 00:56 Refallen wrote: ##Vote Annul That's like THE WORST Wagon I ever saw. Not the reason behind that wagon but srsly guys? Look at that votelist | ||
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On December 08 2011 00:59 Toadesstern wrote: I am agreeing that annul is a viable option right now, but so are people like redFF and Drazerk right now imo. I don't like the fact that those people pushing for annul are ALL suspicious + Show Spoiler + On December 07 2011 20:23 Drazerk wrote: ##Vote Annul On December 07 2011 22:48 Palmar wrote: ##Vote annul On December 08 2011 00:27 Erandorr wrote: ##Vote Annul On December 08 2011 00:51 sandroba wrote: ##Vote: Annul On December 08 2011 00:56 Refallen wrote: ##Vote Annul That's like THE WORST Wagon I ever saw. Not the reason behind that wagon but srsly guys? Look at that votelist EBWOP, sry | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:05 Refallen wrote: Toad I gave some reasons earlier at the start of day 2, and so did Palmar I'm not questioning your reason as I mentioned I am questioning the list of people. I do agree that the case is a viable one but I'd like to discuss it rather than rushing to vote him. People like Palmar rushing to get people voting on annul with phrases like "X, vote Annul, now" are not helping but that's not the reason I'm scared of that wagon. Everyone on that list is HIGHLY suspicious. I'm not going to sheep something like that until I got some opinions from people I think are clear town. Especially if 100% of that list is suspicious to say the least. | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:09 Qatol wrote: (disregard the link between him and Corrupt I made, as I said, it was a forced analysis there) I'm not voting annul until he tries to explain himself or someone claims his protection. If none of this happens by the end of the day-cycle, I'll gladly vote him. If I concluded that he is a moron/dumb/troll instead of a scum with that analysis, then I'm up to hammering down a moron/dumb/troll like him. At very least you proved to shape up a bit towards the end of the day. Play nice please. Don't call someone a moron/dumb/troll. Attack arguments, not people.[/QUOTE] Sorry for a one-line, but QFT: The fuck? | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:11 sandroba wrote: LOL TOAD HYSHES MAFIA. redff is town because he has no coherent thought this game. GG No way is hyshes mafia. Everything he's done so far looks like a mafia-hyshes. Ok I got to admit I never saw a mafia hyshes but I saw town-hyshes 3 times and although I'm trusting what he said more than what palmar, you, redFF or someone else on that list said so far. He's not a vet but he sure as hell looks town so at least what he says is his honest opinion. | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:14 Toadesstern wrote: No way is hyshes mafia. Everything he's done so far looks like a town-hyshes. Ok I got to admit I never saw a mafia hyshes but I saw town-hyshes 3 times and although I'm trusting what he said more than what palmar, you, redFF or someone else on that list said so far. He's not a vet but he sure as hell looks town so at least what he says is his honest opinion. EBWOP :p | ||
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oh come on. It's a typo and what you quoted just doesn't make sense while my EBWOP DOED make sense. Context should explain that I meant town-hyshes. | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:23 Zephirdd wrote: I just echoed Palmar's words there, sorry 'bout it. Palmar, what's with this black-and-white(or should I say green-and-red) thing? If I'm not with you I'm against you, really? I don't have any reason to believe that annul is more scum than redFF, therefore I'm not voting him. "Chosing sides" is just wrong, ESPECIALLY when annul still hasn't defended/explained himself. That's actually very decent point. Why would palmar do such a thing as painting his' name green and annuls name red? To get people thinking "hey if he is mafia than I am town" or vice verca is a common mafia thing. Actually even Palmar said it's a logical error. This is not helping town at all, no matter what the flip (if we are going to lynch you OR annul) would be, you get people tunneled no matter what because they think "well if he was X than the other guy has to be Y". That's like the worst thing that could happen to town. Don't fall for this guys although I don't know if it was sarcasm because of sandrobas post or if it was for real. | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:25 Mattchew wrote: I post a whole list of scum reads and noone comments.. idk why I bother only to be called out for not contributing later... and then having stretched cases made against me by anyone that I disagree with sry I didn't mention it. Look at my reasoning. I said I don't like the list of people who are voting for annul because they're all suspicious. That's me agreeing with you without mentioning that half the people that are voteing for annul are those you got pointed out by several people, like you did. | ||
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On December 08 2011 01:34 Toadesstern wrote: sry I didn't mention it. Look at my reasoning. I said I don't like the list of people who are voting for annul because they're all suspicious. That's me agreeing with you without mentioning that half the people that are voteing for annul are those who got pointed out by several people, like you did. EBWOP: sry guys. I'm out for an hour, really need to eat something and get some sugar. I'm just makeing typos all over the place because my brains fucked up right now. I'm not a good help atm | ||
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On December 08 2011 02:56 Mattchew wrote: You may be right. But in that case How is saying that you were role blocked helpful? (this might be obvious to experienced players sorry) It is useful information. Sure he could lie and we should not just take it for granted but there's no downside to it. If you're telling the truth and town believes you they got more information even if you're a VT. If they don't, they don't who cares. It's not like it's a suspicious move to tell people you got roleblocked. | ||
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Hyshes: Yes it's a meta one, but a pretty strong one and I'm sticking to it. He migh not be right with what he says but he's looks to be honest. He's not on the annul wagon Radfield: He said he got some problems with Annul but thinks this wagon is wrong. At least what was pointed out by you guys is wrong. I do agree 100%. I said annul might be an option to talk about but all you said is just bullshit + I'm not going to sheep you guys V7: I said he's lookdy pretty town to me. He looks to be emotional right now as I don't agree on a palmar vote yet although I got to agree, you're giving me a hard time to keep my green read on you Palmar. Those 3 are basicly the 3 guys I got the biggest green read on right now. None of them voted for annul. I'm not going to vote annul until you step in this thread and give us a pretty damn good explanation why we should follow you. And no "X, vote Annul, now" is not a good one. I could go on. Those people who are voteing annul without a doubt are ALL suspicious right now and that's not because of the annul vote. Those people I'm not sure of or those tending-towards-town-guys haven't voted yet. | ||
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On December 08 2011 03:55 Palmar wrote: Radfield! So it's you! I'm surprised, your day 1 play was actually quite solid. that's what I meant earlier... care to explain at least A BIT? | ||
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Someone already pointed out his style is very mich the same as the last game. He's not contributing at all, if someone calls him out he gets in here, does one bigger post and keeps lurkering / onlines until the next guy calls him out. The very same thing happened last game. Look at his filter last game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=117613 and start on page 2 (his mayor-campaign-post), everything before that was before the game started. Called out by ss: klick me Erandorr steps in the thread, does one normal post, proceeds to lurk. I made a case on him as well: Klick me Same as above as frankly, both happened abot the same time, so yeah erandorr get in the thread and starts doing some real posts. That's page 63. From page 64 again he's back to one-liners only. Massive vote-rigging:: Klick me! Erandorr joins the discussion to get one bigger post to get some town-cred and proceeds to lurk / do one-liners. I mean there where people claiming mafia, no need to not bus them for town-cred. That's how he played mafia last game. Now let's look at what erandorr is doing this game, shall we? That's his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=117613 He did some posts on day1 tha are no one-lines, those howeve are just fluff without content, telling rad to take a stand without actually doing something on his own. EVERYTHING ELSE is a one-liner. Next thing that's going to happen: Erandorr will come here, make a big post to look town again, telling you that something is wrong and some way more obvious target should be lynched first and will proceed lurking / doing one-liners afterwards. We can't let that happen again. He completly ignored those people who called him out last game, did one post that made him look okayish and went lurking again. | ||
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On December 08 2011 06:53 Erandorr wrote: Yeah its not like I wrote a giant case on someone that I am convinced is scum, right? No, that just can't be true! First of all: I was right wasn't I? Next thing that's going to happen: Erandorr will come here, make a big post to look town again, telling you that something is wrong and some way more obvious target should be lynched first and will proceed lurking / doing one-liners afterwards. Next thing that happened: You did a post that was decent. Next thing that happened: You did a one-liner (that pic), Next thing that happened: You did a oneliner (this very post I'm quoting). Q.E.D. On your case: It's not that I said you're only doing onelines, it's that you're doing onelines as long as you're fine and once you're not you'll start doing real posts when you're scum. That's my point and I think I'm right here. | ||
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On December 08 2011 07:18 Erandorr wrote: [...] I actually don't want to fuck town over, so if you have questions that will help you determine my alignment then just ask away and I will give you long answers for once. I hope that I will stay active after that, but at this point I can't really promise you anything. Ok what's the reason for that one: On December 08 2011 00:26 Erandorr wrote: ##Vote: Annul ! To me it looks like you're just blindly following palmar. I know he's a vet but given what he did on day1 I don't want anyone to follow him unless you come to the same conclusion as he does on your own or he somehow proves that he's back to normal. Right now I don't know what to think of Palmar. Yes I still think he's looking slightly town or even more. But I don't want him to ruin day2 like he did with day1, he's not a god that wondrously is right with everything he says and I don't like the fact that he tells people to rush like that. So imo what you're doing is either sheeping palmar which I can't understand based off day1 or it's a vote of yourself without a reason. | ||
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On December 08 2011 09:36 Radfield wrote: Solid Town Palmar vaderseven Zephirdd Toadesstern Hyshes Maybe Town Truthbringer Visceraeyes Annul Lanaia? Risen? Prob Scum kingjames01? Erandorr Sandro? prplhz? Drazerk? Changed it to what I think is true. What's in <b> is what I changed. I also deleted some people from the list because I have no idea what to think about them yet. The biggest difference are our thoughts on hyshes I guess. | ||
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On December 08 2011 09:51 Toadesstern wrote: Changed it to what I think is true. What's in <b> is what I changed. I also deleted some people from the list because I have no idea what to think about them yet. The biggest difference are our thoughts on hyshes I guess. Oh btw, I obviously missed Radfield in the solid town section as I figured he put himself as town as well :p | ||
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On December 08 2011 11:12 Zephirdd wrote: I feel slightly uncomfortable when Radfield's list of "probably" town Includes both the players that caused/are causing a ruckus on the thread, the completely inconsistent and useless town that can't even create a decent case without having his argument blown away by one sentence, and the player that has yet to provide any scum tell other than Erandorr(which, by the way, feels scummy to me, but a feeling isn't anything when you can't freaking argue properly against it) Then his "maybe" town is Which are basically only the null players in the game. I don't have anything wrong with this list, but why am I over it, I have no idea. His prob scum list: Erandorr, the one Toadesstern made a case of; kingjames, the one that made a case of Radfield(when many people had already said he was weird, but nobody had the guts to actually go that far). Then a bunch of interrogation marks over Sandro, who if anything should NOT have an interrogation mark(not based on his meta from last game at least), hyshes who... did nothing the whole game(seriously where is him), and prplhz who is surprisingly much more useful than usual(see Steamship Liquidia). Then, we get Toadesstern's list where he puts Hyshes out of anybody else as "probably" town, and Drazerk as scum. There is something off about these two. What about other players? Why bother mentioning Lanaia or Refallen or Hyshes, but not Corrupt(where is he btw?), Mattchew(who I think is town) or Jackal58(who has been away due to RL stuff)? Why are they so... synchronized? Yet both have a few valid points, but as much as prplhz and Erandorr may feel off, their play hasn't ringed me anything wrong. In fact, purpleHaze seems much more town oriented than the other game I played with him. Erandorr just looks like someone who is busy with something else(I think Palmar mentioned he is playing Dota2? he also said he was a bit sick), and seems just a null tell at best, not scum. Am I paranoid here? They don't seem weird, they don't seem anti-town, yet I have this feeling telling me there is something wrong. Am I the only one on this? I'll just explain my feelings on hyshes and drazerk as those seem to be weird for you. I think everything else is pretty self-explanatory? If it's not please feel free to ask specifically about who you want an explanation. Hyshes: I already explained my read on hyshes a lot. Take a look at my filter, it's not something that came up out of nowhere. I've stated multiple times that I think hyshes is town. He's the only one is this game I have some games I played with him. Actually this is my 4th game and 3 of them I played with hyshes. So far everything that looked weird to most people is EXACTLY what he did the last 2 games and he was town those 2 games. I think the chances of him being mafia just tiny, unbelievably tiny to be honest. Drazerk: I'm just still not believing a word he said about his claim. If annuls claim is right that means we got 2 different types of medics in this game: 1) a super-medic that HAS TO claim he's medic but is therefore Roleblock immune 2) a normal medic or at least a medic that does NOT have to claim I find that to be unbelievable. I think Incog would give us 2 medics of the same type but surely not 2 different types of medics. What would be the reason behind that? Drazerk claimed he protected V7 n1 so there is no way he was the medic that protected annul. | ||
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To make it short: I was lazy, saw that list and imo it had flaws (like hyshes and drazerk) so I changed it according to what I think is right. It's not something I came up with. If you want me to do a list of my own I'm happy to do so tomorrow. I bet that won't overlap with the one rad did because I won't just copy & past & edit it. | ||
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I'm saying he's either a VT or VET trying to catch bullets or a mafia that has something else on his mind like being scared or whatever. I'm not going to push for him yet I'm just calling him a liar yet. | ||
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Just look at erandorr for a second palmar. That guy did everything I expected, did a bigger post to protect himself and started one-liners right afterwards. I called him out for this behaviour, he made a bigger post in which he admits that his filter looks pretty damning but finishes along the lines "well but I'm a townie and I am really sorry I'm screwing town right now! I am willing to help you guys no matter what just shoot me a question". So people came along hugging him like a little baby that's told that it's not his fault and that everything's going to be okay. Guess what? I asked him a simple question straight away after his post. He still hasn't answered, still somehow people think he's looking more town now with his most recent post because I guess people feel sorry for him. This is a cheap trick. | ||
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On December 08 2011 22:50 Palmar wrote: The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. You should simply look at the strength of the case and determine for yourself if it's valid enough to earn him your vote. If you always consider who else shares your opinion you'll never get anywhere because nothing stops mafia from bussing teammates. I have looked at Errandor. There is nothing about his play that conclusively puts him down as scum. Sure, there are questionable things in there, but that's not a reason to lynch him today. I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his alignment by lynching annul. Lynching Errandor will not solve anything that's going on in town now. It's basically an excuse for lynching a scummy lurker. That was for day 1, today we're going after mafia. And I just gave you mafia. there's nothing about his play that puts him down as mafia? Have you read my case? Even erandorr agrees that it's a good one which is the reason people feel sorry for him. | ||
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On December 08 2011 22:50 Palmar wrote: The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. You should simply look at the strength of the case and determine for yourself if it's valid enough to earn him your vote. If you always consider who else shares your opinion you'll never get anywhere because nothing stops mafia from bussing teammates. I have looked at Errandor. There is nothing about his play that conclusively puts him down as scum. Sure, there are questionable things in there, but that's not a reason to lynch him today. I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his alignment by lynching annul. Lynching Errandor will not solve anything that's going on in town now. It's basically an excuse for lynching a scummy lurker. That was for day 1, today we're going after mafia. And I just gave you mafia. EBWOP: You're even contradicting yourself wtf. So you're saying when it's not okay to not lynch annul because of what other people think about him but it's okay to do so with erandorr after a lynch? | ||
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Yes it is mostly what I've seen him do in that 80-player-game and this one. It's just that it's completly the same thing. Exactly the same pattern/style. On top of that I think his style got flaws and it's shaky this game. Take redFF for example. It's my first game with him or I don't remember him from a previous game. Therefore I have 0 meta on him. What he's doing so far is scummy as hell, still I don't think he's mafia right now because his style looks consistent. Either that guy is a really good mafia player that he's able to fake a style like this or he's just used to playing that way as both mafia and town imo. So that's why I'm not all over redFF although I think his actions look scummy. I just don't see that in Erandorrs posts. | ||
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On December 08 2011 23:16 Mattchew wrote: I would be surprised because zeph and rad I read into as definitive town. Rad for contributing and building a good town atmosphere and zeph has literally nothing suspicous about his posts. prplhz has been pushing at guys which can be read as scummy but I think that his pushing for answers has been pretty pro-town thus far. Palmar is by far the sketchiest on this list imo. His tunneling on annul screams "misleading town away from voting a mafia member to get lynched" but it could just be his ego on his read convincing him he is right. Plus I am town, so 4 out of 5 would really surprise me and Palmar I am questionable on. yes I think your right with the bolded part. Palmar is the kind of guy that loves to be in contorl so first of all he wants to lead town (last game he even was mayor) and secondly he obviously thinks very highly about himself and most people agree on the second one. However, he's not a semi-god who's right with every call he makes so I think we should question his vote instead of just sheeping. If he manages to explain it so that I come to the same conclusion it's fine with me but I'm not going to sheep him just because he's good. | ||
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On December 08 2011 23:28 Palmar wrote: Why not? If toad thinks Erandorr is mafia, and Erandorr votes for annul, that should have no impact on whether or not the case against annul is valid, because Erandorr isn't annul, they're seperate people. Toad could be wrong about Erandorr, I could be wrong about annul, and Erandorr could be bussing annul. You cannot read anything about whether or not the annul wagon is valid based on who is on it. However, while the fact Erandorr votes for annul says nothing about annul, it does say a lot about Erandorr, because... Erandorr is Erandorr. I don't get what's complicated about this. First of all, you just said it. Even if you're right and annul is mafia there's no new read on erandorr. The guy voted for annul after something like 4 votes were on him after an incredible fast time? If you're right this could be a bus and this gives me 0 information about erandorr. How am I supposed to to gauge erandorrs alignment based on the flip? This is incredible wifom to the max. Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is red. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is green. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a mafia bussing annul if annul is red. Erandorr could be a mafia getting a green-lynch if annul is green. | ||
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On December 08 2011 23:41 Palmar wrote: That's when you apply the "it's not what people do, but how they do it, that should be looked at" rule. If you're town, please come back and re-read this entire thing because you're being so wrong and bad at the moment that if you somehow justify your arguments to yourself, you will never improve. okay give it a try, enlighten me and explain me where I'm wrong here becaue I can't see it. I'd say all 4 make sense because "how" erandorr was doing it was " ! Vote" and that's it. That's why I put sheeping in the top 2 ones instead of what I have in brackets. However the same thing could happen when bussing or trying to get a green-lynch because this is, again, wifom. I'm standing by my point that there's no informationgain on erandorr, at all. | ||
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On December 08 2011 23:55 Mattchew wrote: Palmar, would you go Lynch for Lynch with Annul. If he flips town you get lynched next? please stop these things I know palmar is confident in his own and might be willing to do such a thing but it's NOT going to help town, it's just a tool to make a case look stronger "see I even would agree to that deal, np ezpz". NOONE should agree to that kind of deal unless he's 100% certain his target is scum. There is no 100% chance to know someones alignment in this game unless you're mafia and know it. Therefore it's at max something like 99%. Even if you somehow got a 99% clear case which I doubt we have here (neither annul nore erandorr) there is 99 cases in which town won't get an advantage because palmar was right and 1 case in which we're just fucked because palmar's the next guy who's getting lynched because he was wrong although he believes in his case. So unless you think yourself that palmar is 100% scum there's no reason to suggest such a thing because that "bad" case isn't a bad case if we lynch a mafia. Therefore, stop it. | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:04 Mattchew wrote: In no way, shape or form, did I intend that to be an honest plan. I realize its stupid I just like hearing and reading peoples responses to it. (I wanted to wait for annul to respond to this but I have a feeling he would hop on what you just said) I am totally aware that it wasn't your intention, still it's a bad thing to do because it's at best no gain for town and at worst we're screwed. I don't want these things to happen, period | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:12 Mattchew wrote: so can you explain why you think annul is scum and why you think palmar is scum. and why they cant be 2 townies bumping heads. I think he said he thinks palmar is scum and therefore annul has to be town. I am still miracously on a town-read on palmar so I got to disagree here. I think he's just an overconfident guy who hates it when he's not in controle. He screwed day1 and lost controle of this game, he started playing more serious and did a lot of lurking. He's probably stubborn enoug to tell himself something along the lines "well I'm going to show them that they SHOULD trust me and will deliver a mafia" to get back in controle / be confirmed townie so that people are listening to what he says because that's what he wants. He wants to be in charge and lead the investigation. That's why I think he might be tunneling (because he thinks he needs to find a mafia right now) and I don't think his case on annul is better than my case on erandorr. Might be wrong with my analysis of palmar though. | ||
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I'm saying he's thinking higher of his case than it actually is. | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:25 Toadesstern wrote: wat? I just said I think palmar is a stubborn townie that tries to get back in a leading position by delivering a scum. I'm saying he's thinking higher of his case than it actually is. EBWOP: That was meant to be a response to what Jackal said | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:35 Palmar wrote: Explain where the case is awful. And would you be more comfortable voting annul if the wagon was faster? I'm asking because normally I hear people throw around ideas that fast-building wagons are scummy, but now you say slow building wagons are scummy? Say, what rate would you prefer the wagon to get going at? Or did you just throw that in there to justify your vote on me? The problem is that it went incredible fast early on (the first 6 votes) and stopped there for 24 hours. Do you really think 4 people are sheeping you that hard to just vote like this without an explanation? Don't you think mafia would have hoped on that wagon sometimes yesterday no matter annuls alignment? If you're really right with your case I would not want to touch annul with a pole from here to whereever he lives. If you're wrong mafia would love to get on that wagon to see a townie dead without doing a thing (that is if you're town) and would have hoped on there not right from the beginning but surely sometime. Because I can't see one of that happening I'm saying that there's already 1 or 2 mafias who hopped on that wagon from the very beginning along with some sheeping townies. | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:49 Palmar wrote: As I explained earlier, looking at things like this has no value towards the case. Mafia could bandwagon a fellow mafia to get exactly this reaction from you. I say it once again, you cannot deduce anything about anyone by looking at the reactions of someone else, you should read the person, and only that person. Read the case, agree or disagree with it. Ignore everything but exactly the content of the case. I'm more than fine with you pushing your own case, but at the end of the day, if you fail to secure enough support for your case, you should take a firm stance towards the leading two cases. If for some reason the annul lynch fails, I will myself be forced to look at alternative cases. However, at this rate I don't expect it to. First of all I kind of agree with what you said about looking into people rather that what other people think about people. I still think my wifom example is right and actually it kind of shows it. However I still think you're overconfident right now and you're makeing a bigger deal of it than it is in reality. But yeah at the end of the day I will look at what we got and decide where my vote is most useful. I hope you're doing the same. Secondly I do not think mafia would bus a mafia buddy just to make them me think what I said, but that's another box to open that's not going to help here :p | ||
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On December 09 2011 00:58 Palmar wrote: That's a fair opinion, because now you're using the correct mindset to disagree with me. If you genuinely think the case doesn't prove annul is scum, I don't have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is throwaway reasons like "this wagon is bad", because that doesn't address the situation at hand. And yes, as I said, if this falls apart I am forced to look at other options. However, remember that I am awesome and almost always right. Fair enough, I admit the sideswipe (looked this up on a translator, hope it's right lol) after what I said about your mindset. | ||
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On December 09 2011 03:37 Zephirdd wrote: I just had this random thought, as we seem to be in this fight between Erandorr or annul's lynch. Ask yourself which flip gives you the most. - If Erandorr flips scum, congrats we got scum. - If Erandorr flips town, fuck our lives. - If annul flips scum, we can disregard his protection claim or assume it exists; either way, we got a scum and that also should increase Palmars credibility(which seems to be worrying a lot of people) - If annul flips town, Palmar's credibility goes downhill BUT we confirm that there is at least one town-aligned medic other than the supposed Drazerk claim. either way, annul's flip should provide us much more information than Erandorr's flip. The problem I have with that is that I'm not exactly willing to lynch for information. I am reading the case on annul again right after this post. A couple hours I thought it's weaker than my cae but who knows what sticking my nose into that case might make me see what I did not see earlier. | ||
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On December 09 2011 03:53 Mattchew wrote: As an almost neutral party (I favor the lynching of eran straight up) the cases presented are close enough where the information becomes a tipping point for me. I am going to quote palmar here because he at least made me agree to that one: On December 09 2011 00:49 Palmar wrote: As I explained earlier, looking at things like this has no value towards the case. Mafia could bandwagon a fellow mafia to get exactly this reaction from you. I say it once again, you cannot deduce anything about anyone by looking at the reactions of someone else, you should read the person, and only that person. Read the case, agree or disagree with it. Ignore everything but exactly the content of the case. I'm more than fine with you pushing your own case, but at the end of the day, if you fail to secure enough support for your case, you should take a firm stance towards the leading two cases. If for some reason the annul lynch fails, I will myself be forced to look at alternative cases. However, at this rate I don't expect it to. That's the reason I'm even considering to vote for annul because before palmar mad this clear I was never ever going to vote annul with people like Drazerk, Erandorr, Sandroba, prplhz, Refallen (<--at least a null for me, which is not a good sign among those guys) on him. That's literally every scummy player in this game therefore I said this wagon looks like the Worst wagon ever. Not because of what palmars case was because of what people are voteing it. If that's not a reason to not-vote for annul because I am only supposed to look at the case, the possible information gain is not something I'm going to take as an argument. Saying what I said is bad because you only have to look at the case when it hurts palmars case but when it's supporting his case it's okay? | ||
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That's the reason I'm even considering to vote for annul because before palmar made this clear I was never ever going to vote annul with people like Drazerk, Erandorr, Sandroba, prplhz, Refallen (<--at least a null for me, which is not a good sign among those guys) on him. That's literally every scummy player in this game therefore I said this wagon looks like the worst wagon ever. Not because of what palmars case is about but because who is agreeing to it / voteing. If that's not a reason to not-vote for annul because I am only supposed to look at the case, the possible information gain is not something I'm going to take as an argument. Telling me what I said is bad ("not voteing for annul because of scummy voters") because you're only supposed to look at the case and not who is sticking to it if it's hurting palmars case but as soon as its helping palmars case it's ok to look at other things, too? (information gain) Rephrased a lot. That happens when I try to construct a sentence out of multiple sentences I had before while deleting other parts of the sentence. Works fine in german but the moment I try doing that in english I end up fwith stupid bullshit or german grammar :p | ||
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On December 09 2011 04:22 Mattchew wrote: EBWOP: upon more re-reading of that, you may want to re-read my filter, never did I claim that who is voting for a person should not be taken into account when making your decision. Yeah but palmar claimed that one. If you believe in what you said and are voteing annul because of out-of-case-information perhaps you should take a look at the voteing thread and tell me if you like the names that are next to annul. Especially the first 7 names from the left. Do you really think it is a good idea? | ||
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On December 09 2011 04:43 Erandorr wrote: Oh shit. Someone is making sense! By the way, I actually didn't sheep Palmar, I came to that conclusion on my own. It was just kinda funny ^.^ hey there, glad you're back in here answering those questions you told you'd answer, staying active and all. Oh wait you're last post was on page 72? At least you did another quality post here... oh wait. GUYS, are you kidding me? | ||
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On December 09 2011 04:50 Toadesstern wrote: hey there, glad you're back in here answering those questions you told you'd answer, staying active and all. Oh wait you're last post was on page 72? At least you did another quality post here... oh wait. GUYS, are you kidding me? I am just quoting myself because everyone is ignoring it. Palmar answer this one: You think erandorr is a bad case based of what he does and based of what I said so far? It's AGAIN the same thing. He made that one post 13 pages ago that made everyone think "oh that poor little guy, he even thinks Toads case is good, can't be mafia". And he instantly went into lurkingmode again just to come out now to make a single post that got 2 posts of nothing. I will be sitting there post game telling you that I told you erandorr was a good case, I even told you what erandorr is going to to and he did it twice now. And he's ignoring it again. Yell yeah, that's the way a townie is playing this game, let's all withdraw our votes from erandorr... | ||
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On December 09 2011 05:54 Drazerk wrote: I live in Europe that's just being unrealistic I am as well but 16:52 tl time is just not that late for guys from europe, is it? | ||
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On December 09 2011 05:57 Drazerk wrote: Well he has already said there is no role claim involved and personally I would take Annul's role claim less serious than my own and not treat him any different unless he could confirm his own role or something so you agree that you're a liar and I was right about you all along? | ||
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On December 09 2011 05:59 Drazerk wrote: You really need to understand my meta better -.- it's hard because this is the first game we're playing together I think. I mean I shot you last game on n2 with my awesome vigpower but other than that I don't know much about your meta. | ||
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On December 08 2011 06:44 Toadesstern wrote: I think we might have someone with Erandorr. Someone already pointed out his style is very mich the same as the last game. He's not contributing at all, if someone calls him out he gets in here, does one bigger post and keeps lurkering / onlines until the next guy calls him out. The very same thing happened last game. Look at his filter last game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=117613 and start on page 2 (his mayor-campaign-post), everything before that was before the game started. Called out by ss: klick me Erandorr steps in the thread, does one normal post, proceeds to lurk. I made a case on him as well: Klick me Same as above as frankly, both happened abot the same time, so yeah erandorr get in the thread and starts doing some real posts. That's page 63. From page 64 again he's back to one-liners only. Massive vote-rigging:: Klick me! Erandorr joins the discussion to get one bigger post to get some town-cred and proceeds to lurk / do one-liners. I mean there where people claiming mafia, no need to not bus them for town-cred. That's how he played mafia last game. Now let's look at what erandorr is doing this game, shall we? That's his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=117613 He did some posts on day1 tha are no one-lines, those howeve are just fluff without content, telling rad to take a stand without actually doing something on his own. EVERYTHING ELSE is a one-liner. Next thing that's going to happen: Erandorr will come here, make a big post to look town again, telling you that something is wrong and some way more obvious target should be lynched first and will proceed lurking / doing one-liners afterwards. We can't let that happen again. He completly ignored those people who called him out last game, did one post that made him look okayish and went lurking again. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=72#1428 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=72#1436 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=81#1606 My quote is the case, those 3 links are important. | ||
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On December 09 2011 09:53 vaderseven wrote: I love that the mafia forum here is awesome enough to have a 3k post count person that doesn't know him. Hes a sc2 person. He probably know who incontrol is but never hear of a role and neither have I oO | ||
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But I'd rather have my cookies, don't you dare to ruin my dream of cookies at 2am in the morning | ||
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mass f5 for nothing? | ||
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I can decide what you do? | ||
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I'd say prplhz is the biggest consensus (looked that word up in a dictionary, sounds fancy). I think he's scummy as hell and a lot of people think so as well. SOOO, shot that guy right in his face or die yourself. | ||
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if you can, yes. | ||
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But I guess it's better off that way because If I type in that command it's proves nothing... but I wanted to push a button Are you arroudn wbg? Would be awesome to see if it works, and If I can go to bet with my vote not on annul or if I should change it | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:25 Palmar wrote: chance of success: 0.2% yeah think so too, but if those 0,2% happen to be true I'm not going to vote annul. | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:27 Palmar wrote: Where the fuck was this consensus, are you on drugs toad? annul should be lynched tonight, if I wake up to him non-dead there's gonna be rage. are you kidding me? look up a couple of filters. I thought he's scummy, rad thought so. Fair enough I thought | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:29 Palmar wrote: I repeatedly fucking told people he was town, I even said it was one of his best town performance. god fucking damn it. Your vote better stay on annul's ass, because him being able to shoot says nothing about his alignment. He's still scum. you're the only guy who defended him palmar... My option was Drazerk, Erandorr, prp, MAYBE kingjames and MAYBE sandro. Other than rad noone ever mentoned kingjames and sandro I think and since drazerk and erandorr are not ok with the majority I went with prp. | ||
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Well do you believe he made you guys chose me by some super awesome psychic powers? I don't think so. Right now I think annul is town for the same reason I think V7 is town. | ||
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I think redFF is a useless townie | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:35 Refallen wrote: Toad, who do you want to vote on tonight then? Erandorr? I just don't have a fucking clue right now. Didn't see that one comming. | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:37 kingjames01 wrote: Actually, he didn't ask people to vote who got to use his shot. He asked if people trusted YOU, specifically. to be fair he asked who is the MOST trustworthy towny. The first guy who answered was rad who said it's me and I'm pretty sure the 2nd guy (hyshes?) called my game as well. From that point on, he changed it to 1. who is most trustworthy? 2. Do you agree with Toad being town I see no possibility of setting this thing up unless you believe that Annul is scum, I am scum, Rad is Scum and hyshes is scum. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=86#1704 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=86#1705 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=85#1695 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=85#1698 That happened before he changed his question to "1. who's most town 2. do you trust toad?" I don't think anyone here sees all of them as scum. | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:37 Palmar wrote: What the fuck? you're literally stating I'm scum, and you somehow think that shooting scum doesn't help you? Are you 4real? That logic is just completely fucking insane. The only fucking reason you didn't shoot me is you know I'm not scum, and you are scum. You know that I wouldn't have flipped scum, and you'd have been instantly lynched. You basically just confirmed yourself as scum by not even attempting to hit scum with that shot. You just relied on Toad being bad enough, or your scumbuddy, to pick a dumb-as-shit target. If you're not dead tomorrow, this will go down in the history books as the worst town play ever. Just answer me this one question. HOW should he have know that I was the guy the pick the move? I thought it could have been rad or V7 as well and both have experience with this game. How is this makeing sense? | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:44 hyshes wrote: Lol. No u could just have used your town-look to save annul. Nobody had you on their town-list, so annul knew you would be the one. Especially because of his second question in which he mentions you. You save annul by doing this, get a free townkill and some towncred. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212¤tpage=85#1695 That's the question he did. Do you think he could have rigged that somehow? I doubt it. | ||
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On December 09 2011 10:54 hyshes wrote: Yes. Annul asked directly at radfield there radfield isn't going to mention himself. After that, he asked if anyone thought you were mafia. And then this: I would not be surprised if you guys set this up. And you focussing on it makes me believing it more. I just mentioned it once as a very unlikely option. But now i actually believe it. so you're basicly saying that rad, annul and I am all mafia. Annul asked the thread to tell us who is the most likely towny, rad, the scumbuddy. came out of nowhere saying it's Toad, and I get to shoot someone? Yes I am asking this again because I just can't believe it. | ||
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First things first. Yeah wbg told us to not peak about it but erandorrs replacement busts my case on him. I still think I might be right here but I'm not going to vote someone who I think might,possibly,whatsoever be scum. To be honest I did not know who I should vote for yesterday as it was already 3am and I got tired as hell. Next thing: I think annul is town. Palmar says annul should have shot himself and said it's not makeing sense. I do agree to some point but at the some time I think his argument is just invalid. If palmar really is town and annul really is mafia. Wouldn't annul just go ahead and shoot palmar like 10 minutes before the deadline? We had 11 votes on him, with all the euros gone and palmar dead that'd be an instant -2 votes on annul because of the anon vote. If I were annul and I were mafia I'd just not have risked what he did yesterday. If annul really was mafia there was probably no chance of lynching him in the first place. Sure shooting palmar n2 and seeing him flip green would be probably mean an auto lynch day3 but in his situation, given he's a mafia, I'd be happy to survive the lynch and take a green-Vet player with me. I'd say he's town. What happened yesterday was crazy but I don't see him doing that as a mafia. I'd rather see him shooting palmar nevertheless to secure his ass. Third issue, about who I got to shoot. As mentioned I would have LOVED to shoot drazerk because I still don't believe a word he says and I'm calling his claim bullshit. However I looked up what other people I think are townie think about him (rad for example) and frankly I was the only one who wanted to see him dead. So I figured I need someone else. Having rads "probably scum" list already opened I checked who rad thinks might be suspicious and yes, the guy that is on both our lists without a '?' was prp so I shot him. That's the consensus I was talking about. | ||
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On December 09 2011 23:57 Zephirdd wrote: Hi, I fucking destroyed that Calculus test I had to do. I had zero hours of sleep tonight, but after it I slept like an angel. Go figure. I'll just throw this out. Scum is annul, sandroba, xsksc(from Corrupt), kingjames01, Radfield and Toadesstern More to come tomorrow. bye. Ok I'm not going to ask for annul as I can see how people are still argueing about him and I won't ask for me as all you said so far is that you got a fuzzy fealing about me. However I'd really like to know why you think sandroba, corrupt, kingsames and radfield are scum. I actually would agree on 2 people but I'd like to know why you think so. | ||
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On December 10 2011 00:16 Mattchew wrote: did annul mason toad? I did not get pms from annul or something like that. And V7 said on n1 he can't use 2 powers per cycle. That's the reason we wanted a medic on him instead of a watcher because he was not able to use his other powers. So If annul is telling the truth and is a jack (and not just a regular day-vig) he can't use mason until tomorrow because he shot someone this cycle. | ||
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If he claimes someone bullshit (idk, like "I saved LurkerXYZ but he didn't get shot", well yeah that's not proving a thing because noone is going to shoot that guy) I want to lynch him. If he claimes an okayish protection and fails to do so I want to lynch him (unless there's some KP missing, because that could mean a doublestack for whatever reason). If he claims someone reasonable who is not shot that night I'm ok with it. If he claims someone reasonable, that guy tells us he got shot and still lives I'm saying he's confirmed town. This is a serious suggestion. If there are flaws in my argumentation please come in this thread and tell me because I don't want to screw another day. I don't care if you're calling me out on this one but I do care if I am responsible for another failure because I might be missing something horribly obvious, so think about it and tell me what you think! | ||
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On December 10 2011 05:49 sandroba wrote: Well is Drazerk a liar? It's within the realm of possibilities, but that just comes back to my previous point. Him claiming right before the deadline also proves nothing if he is mafia. Ok I see your point because if he is mafia he knows who is going to get killed and therefore can choose someone reasonable who is not going to die. Fair enough. What about the same thing except that he's only a null-read if he chooses a reasonable target but the guy did not get shot at all? Well and if he choses someone reasonable, we got a KP missing and the guy who got shot claims he got shot I'm okay with him. Even if he's mafia trying to save his ass with some stupid move like this, I don't actually mind that deal that much. Free -1KP without doing a thing. OR he really is a town medic. I'm more or less ok with both. | ||
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Therefore I looked up rads suspicious list and picked someone we both think is suspicious | ||
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On December 10 2011 06:16 kingjames01 wrote: But you implied that the majority of the town wanted prplhz to be shot. Two players is not the majority. I never said such a thing. I said I would have loved to shoot Drazerk or Erandorr but did not. I looked up a couple of posts. I thought rad's list is the best thing to go by and just pick someone we both think is scummy. That's the consensus I've mentioned. I just looked in his list. Saw we got a bunch of people we think are scummy in common and picked the guy who had neither a '?' in my head nor in his list. That's the deal. Sadly rad was not arround I would have loved talking about this and waited like 5 minutes but that's it. If someone would have given me a quick summary of EVERYTHING in this thread so far, yeah I might have been able to pick someone more liked by the majority (like = dislike in this case) but I just searched for those posts knew where to find them and rad's list was easily to find in his filter. | ||
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On December 10 2011 06:28 Drazerk wrote: Toad you should never of chosen anyone to be shot. Any choice would of been a bad one. what should I have done instead? Tell him to not use a power at all? Clearly people would have thought that's weird as well. Mason me? Yeah I could have done that but sadly there's nothing in the thread that confirms that so I think shooting a mafia was the only option I had. | ||
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I was looking up rads posts, V7 posts and hyshes posts. I wasn't able to find something useful in V7 and hyshes posts that's why I just went with only rads list. Yes after I found rads list I was still looking for something from V7, therefore rads list was already opened in another tab because I already found it. After 5 minutes of searching I just went with the list which got a couple of names, got my list and out of all those names I picked the best consensus. | ||
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On December 10 2011 07:31 Lanaia wrote: [...] So? They don't HAVE to use it. Like they said, they really only can use two of the actions. Are you saying that everything always has a good use? We don't know everything that's in this game. I'm just saying V7 obviously has more information on what is going on than I do. Also I think V7 is basicly confirmed right now. Therefore I'm trusting him with what he says, at least I think he's honest. If he truly thinks there's a good reason to not lynch annul because of what was said I'm saying we should take a look at other people first. I think his decision with a lot of information is better than my decision-makeing without information at all. | ||
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I am almost willing to let it go, just believe you're an awesome RB-immune-medic and and that's it. But everytime I do I remember that ridiculous claim of yours | ||
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On December 10 2011 08:12 Lanaia wrote: For the WIFOM, do you think, so they can get a mislynch on you? Toad, if you think it's so troubling he's alive, why didn't you TELL ANNUL TO SHOOT HIM? Would have been 1,000,000 times better. You really should have considered that a bit more. God, this is starting to make my brain hurt. I don't understand the motives of recent actions. ALSO I WILL NOT BE HERE FROM 4 pm PST to 8 pm PST because of work. I did. I even told him that I will probably want him to shoot drazerk or erandorr when suddenly my brain told me to do what people want me to do instaed of what I want to do. That's why I looked at rads list and picked someone we both though is scummy instead Anyways, I'm off to bed now. | ||
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On December 10 2011 21:50 Drazerk wrote: for argument's sake and confirming both palmar / refallen. I protected sandroba last night so refallen has to be a medic. the fuck? Sandroba? I'm going to put this in caps to make sure you get what I'm talking about: SANDROBA? wtf was that supposed to do? It's not a question of 3 medics but a question of 2 medics. Our now claimed medic said he did not (!) protect annul n1, therefore we have to have 2 medics if annul's claim is right. Drazerks medic claim is still bullshit and there is no way his claim is viable. | ||
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On December 11 2011 03:25 Mattchew wrote: Woops... made the list during last night and copy pasted with a change to annul. Need to update. Ps. annul that means there are 2 medics saying they didn't heal you.. REALLY YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THERES A THIRD? There is no third medic... It's a question if there's only 1 medic (the NORMAL one that claimed) or really 2 medics (the one that claimed + the one that saved annul n1 if that's not a lie). Drazerk is NOT a medic, his claim is just bullshit and he will NOT be able to protect our medic the next night because he's NOT a medic. I still don't know what to make of his claim though. He's a liar for sure. Claiming he will protect our medic when he's not a medic at all is dangerous as fuck so I'm still going to say he's mafia | ||
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On December 11 2011 03:32 Drazerk wrote: How about this then I protect our medic if he dies you lynch me tomorrow? If you really are mafia you controle who gets shot... Therefore you could just call out "well I protected him but it looks like mafia believes my claim because noone attacked him". If you protect someone, claim you protected him 10 secs before the deadline and if that guy tells us he got shot and still lives I'm fine with your claim. But as I think you're mafia proving ypu're town with your awesome medic powers (which I still don't believe to exist) is really hard. Try a more old-fashioned way, like, playing good. | ||
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On December 11 2011 08:07 Drazerk wrote: To be honest you should of let yourself die yesterday if you was town. You basically killed town discussion by staying alive. that's against the rules in some games and if he really is town than a no-lynch is (according to the coach who pm'ed last game) better than a 100% townie-lynch even if the discussion get's problematic. I'm still waiting for that post V7 wanted to make | ||
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On December 11 2011 09:22 vaderseven wrote: OK that was clarified and I apologize to any mod/host that thinks I was trying to break that rule, I was not! Annul has shown VERY much so that he has the exact same role that I do. I won't be voting for annul even it is to avoid a no lynch. do you have someone else to vote? I'm trusting you this time with annul and I think we need another viable option to vote. | ||
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On December 11 2011 10:52 Zephirdd wrote: I do agree that Drazerk is suspicious. A roleblock-immune medic is veeeeery convenient, and he is STILL alive past two nights; That's something I find to be extremely odd. There is also the thing that he protects sandroba night 1 out of all players and vaderseven night 2, and neither actually got targeted despite being valid targets(sandroba is a great player, and decent n1 target; vaderseven has very little chance of being actual mafia, and is a blue). annul also makes a few valid points towards Drazerk; which is something I didn't want to say. The decision of shooting anyone when asking 45min before the lynch was ridiculous IMO. But if anything, I'm willing to believe town is actually killing itself at this point instead of some evil mafia plans. And for some odd reason, Drazerk makes sense. But the thing is: what if annul is wrong and Drazerk is actually right? x_x I need a few more opinions on that. About what could Drazerk be right? | ||
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I mean the guy is a liar, no doubt about that but he's now starting to jeopardize blues with his lies. | ||
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On December 11 2011 11:09 Drazerk wrote: But we don't have three medics. Because Annul is lying. On December 11 2011 11:09 Drazerk wrote: But we don't have three medics. Because Annul is lying. For Christs sake he's not. I AM the medic that protected him n1. I even explained/breadcrumbed it : Click me! I don't know what you think about annul but he was never lying about being hit. I got a msg as well. That is the reason I'm not believing a word Drazerk is claiming. He did claim RB-immune-Medic and I'm a fucking normal medic. What point is there in makeing several medic-variations in this game? Incog trolling? I don't think so. That's why I wanted to know if V7 got shot because that would have proven we got a 2nd medic and that's why I risked letting V7 die n1 because if he died that night it would have been a prove for Drazerk to be mafia. Sadly mafia probably realized this as well after rad told drazerk to protect V7 (clickedyclick ). YOU ARE NOT A MEDIC So far this guy was a liar, that's why I always pushed him but obviously noone else knew it. Now he starts jeopardizing our blues. He did so with V7 n1 when he said "yeah np I'm going to protect him" and now he's doing it with Refallen. The only reason V7 did not die n1 was because of what I linked a little bit above (rad tellimg him he'll get lynched if V7 dies). Why would mafia not kill V7 if rad (who we know is a green) even promised to lynch Drazerk if he really is green? Mafia would have LOVED to get a townie lynch and they knew that Drazerk would be dead if they killed V7. | ||
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On December 11 2011 11:26 Drazerk wrote: I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET SHOT How has that not been clear to you? If you hadn't of pushed me so hard and just bought my claim you would of had me shot mafia would of wasted KP and we would be fine. yeah that's a pretty nice explanation for not getting shot if you're mafia. I mean I even thought so as well on n1 after your claim. I thought you're a VT or a VET trying to get shot but "protecting" our blues is just not a useful talent toi have if you're not a medic. | ||
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On December 11 2011 11:28 Drazerk wrote: I didn't think there was a second medic because I thought scum knew my meta and knew I would claim annul's save if I was lying when you're talking about a 2nd medic, are you referring to yourself as the 1st medic or are you referring to Refallen, the medic noone knew was there until he claimed today or are you referring to the medic that saved annul which you thought to be bullshit? | ||
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On December 11 2011 11:38 Drazerk wrote: Toad your aware I have a long and boring history of doing this as town right? yeah probably. Do you have a long and boring history of sacrificing blues as well? Because that's actually the thing that's more troubling for me and what differentiates your normal town-liar from your mafia-liar style. | ||
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On December 11 2011 11:45 Drazerk wrote: Palmar knows me too well. Read my scum meta. Read my town meta. Then say I am scum I even shot you out of 80 people last game and you are telling me I can't tell when you're mafia and when you're not? You got to be kidding me, I can smell when you're mafia. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6l8Hq.jpg) I'm going to quote what palmar said because I literally think some people did not read the case he did on annul. I'm quoting it within a spoiler to not bomb the thread (more than I'm already doing). Please read it people, you need to read it carefully and not just skip it. + Show Spoiler + On December 08 2011 22:00 Palmar wrote: It's time. You don't always catch scum in the same way. There is, for example, no traditional way of catching Kenpachi or Coagulation as scum, because they will not, regardless of their alignment, provide us with content that can be broken down and analyzed through post by post analysis. That is not to say you can't catch people who play unconventionally as scum. While annul doesn't write long, well explained posts, no matter his alignment, it's the content and direction, as well as the intention of these posts that give a player away. I think annul is a good player, he doesn't give himself away every single post. But it's rather the overall playstyle that reeks of scum. Let's look at why annul is scum: For convenience, here is his entire filter: Clicky There is not much to be had on annul's alignment from his initial posting. He is mostly correct in his thoughts, simply because arguing such mundane things as "should we use lists or not" is not something that can give away people's alignments. No matter their opinion on such things. The first post that stuck out to me was this: This is regarding prplhz's sentence: "Just want to sit around and wait for power roles to do our job" Here's the deal, this is in no way a blue claim, and as soon as prplhz denies it being one, the issue should be ignored, yet even quite a bit later annul is still wondering about a trivial issue. The sentence can easily be read from the point of view of prplhz being town and "our job" referring to finding mafia, not blues using their abilities. Why does annul want to stick with this? Because it gives him an excuse to contribute nothing, which has been a hallmark of his play this game. What the shit is a blueslip, there is no such thing. He denied it referring to him being blue, and that should be taken at facevalue. It changes exactly nothing, annul is just staying on his road of "If I tunnel this, I don't have to contribute". Just so I point it out, annul's vote on Drazerk, followed by his switch to Soap gives us no indication of his alignment. Let's talk some more about how to avoid contributing and draw bad conclusions: What has Soap's alignment to do with me? I called him my homeboy, so if I'm right I must be scum? Where's the logic here. I did not ask for Soap to be shot, the whole issue has nothing to do with me. I retracted my claim before the shot was fired, and confirmed it. The decision was a rash, bad decision from v7, against a person that I had no intention of getting shot. As syllogism so brilliantly put it: Of course, this doesn't stop annul with following through with his completely illogical train of thought, because that's a favorite thing of mafia, to not use logic and just run with stuff. Now, please recheck annul's filter ( here ) and scroll down to where he votes me. Notice how sharply his contribution rate has fallen. Not only that, but there is also NO effort at scumhunting at all. He literally hasn't accused anyone of anything since he decided I was red. There is no substance. I think the closest thing was calling Jackal a moron. He hasn't even pushed a case against me today. The bottom line, is that in addition to the complete lack of scumhunting, the complete lack of contributions, annul claimed to have been saved by a medic, from a shot I am all but certain was fired by syllogism, makes me have a very strong feeling this guy is scum. Notice, there is not logical reason for not listening to me, it's just the fact that because I'm aggressive and v7 panicked, I must by extension not be trusted. Annul is clinging onto the notion that disregarding me by referring to the misfired shot yesterday, he can discredit me enough so that I won't be listened to. I'm still waiting on anything that can count as contribution from annul today. I think it's also very bad for town to try and push the issue aside. If we allow the mafia do deflect the annul lynch onto a random townie (Radfield, I'm looking at you), we both eliminate the chance that we hit mafia today, and we cause town to be in exactly the same situation tomorrow. It's probably a better idea to lynch me, because at least that will validate everything I'm saying, not like mafia is gonna let me live after the night if annul dies. With 15 townies alive and 6 mafia, we need 11 townies to make the correct decision. The correct decision is to lynch annul today. I was useless on day 1, please accept this scum as a token of my regret. Annul is mafia ##Vote annul Ok now that you've read it think about it and tell me what his case is about! Yes it's about annul not contributing or not taking a stance, it has a nice addition later (not within his actual case) about his claim of being shot to be a lie and even more later (when annul claimed joat) palmar said that the claim is bullshit (not within his case as well). That's basicly it, while not contributing is definitely the main issue palmar has. First thing, his contribution: What palmar says about annul can be said about 50% of this thread. It's not that annul is a hardcore lurker. Now imagine you're on day2, get home, open the thread and realize you've got a bunch of votes on yourself almost enough to get yourself lynched. What do you do in that scenario? You're going crazy trying to defend yourself to prevent a townie-lynch. Noone will just hop in this thread, ignoring those 6 / 10 / 11 votes, start contributing and post a big case yourself. The first thing you're doing is try to get at least some people off yourself with reasoning to try and prevent a 100% townie-lynch (if he is townie he at least knows his alignment). I've been in that situation as well with a bunch of people thinking I'm mafia day1 and I had to defend myself like crazy through day1, 2 AND 3 although I was town and I wasn't able to contribute that much, ask hyshes about it, I got him lynched. Maybe this is just myself being stubborn because I saved him n1 but I can understand that he's got bigger problems than getting fancy contribution right now Now the way more important part about his contribution: Remember my case about Erandorr? Well I had a big case on him as well and Erandorr was WAY worse than Annul, still palmar kept saying his case was better for whatever reason (still don't think so). If you think Erandorr's case is not strong enough (and I think we all agree that it's kinda busted now with that replacement) than you have to admit that probably Annuls (lack of) contribution is not a 100% deal as well. Probably weaker than what we had on Erandorr and to be honest, as already mentioned I could probably make the same case on a couple of people in this thread. Just go to page 1, look at those people who are still alive from top to bottom and make a list of people who are contributing "little", sadly it's a bunch. Annul being shot: Annul got shot. I did not claim because there is no reason to claim. Yeah sure yesterday I could have claimed but there was no viable 2nd target around after erandorr got replaced and I would have just given me away to mafia for a person I thought to be a VT. Now with a 2nd Medic arround claiming it is not that much of a deal becaus we are getting a Mafia (I am not talking about annul here) and medics can protect each other => they have to doublestack => limiting Mafia KP no matter what. Now the important part obviously is that Palmar said, that Annuls claim was bullshit, probably thinking it's a mafia-move to get town-cred when there is no information about how much KP mafia has and nobody knows if he got shot or not. He was wrong with that. Although he never said it was an important point for him it's what got palmar thinking about annul and got him tunneling. Annul being a joat: This is so ridiculous that I have to quote palmar instead of just telling what happened: On December 09 2011 10:25 Palmar wrote: Chance of success 0,2%. Well guess what, those 0,2% happened and he's still not willing to rethink the whole thing? 0,2%? Second time he was wrong about Annul and kept tunneling.chance of success: 0.2% In reality Annul is the new Hier. Sure there was a chance of Hier to flip red but saying the case on Annul is as good as palmar makes it sound is just wrong (again). If you really read that case you can't tell me that that's a stronger case than the one we got on Drazerk and I don't even think it's stronger than the one I had on Erandorr and he (kind of) turned out to be green. People are sheeping Palmar. There is no explanations, nothing, people are just not questioning a thing and keep voteing because well, if there's already something like 7 people on Annul, than I probably am better off voteing him as well. That may be how you vote your government in reallife but it sure isn't how you vote in Mafia. Read what the case ACTUALLY is. Ask yourself if it really is that strong as palmar tries to make it look and ask yourself if you really should sheep that or if we got a better target. And yeah I'm sorry to claim another thing but I really don't want us to lynch a townie: That's what V7 said to me when he read my case on erandorr On December 08 2011 06:59 vaderseven wrote: Toadesstern, I like your case on erandorr. I will make sure to look at him tonight. That's probably the thing V7 is trying to tell us. He never thought of looking at erandorrs filter tonight, the 4th action is a dt-check. That's why he wants to look at him tonight (yesterday, I hope he did not after that replacement). Do you really want to lynch someone that got a DT-action? I'm with V7 here, I do NOT want to lynch Annul. I'm not saying he's a clear townie because he's not, he's a coinflip, palmar got some points, annul is not contributing as much as he should but so are a bunch of other people. If you really think the case on annul is the best we got you did not see what Drazerk is pulling off this game. I do not know why, but Palmar is blowing up this case, makeing it look awesome way more than he should, if we would not have our dt confirming him I'd be all over him. | ||
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I guess he's either a liar himself or we really have a townie RB that roleblocks redFF because he thinks redFF's scummy. Actually the case on redFF is something like the case on annul so it would not be strange for a townie at all no matter what alignment redFF actually has. So no, I'm not scared about 2 roleblockers. | ||
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On December 11 2011 23:08 xsksc wrote: Toad, you didn't quote Palmar's more recent case. For reference: Annul is scum. Syllo shot Annul n1, mafia medic saved him. Lynch Annul please xoxo so you're saying I'm a mafia medic? Or are you just ignoring the fact that I did safe annul? | ||
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On December 11 2011 23:09 Drazerk wrote: If you think Red is lying he is our next best target, you seem to be ignoring everyone who knows my meta and knows what I am capable of as town in order to try and lynch me. You don't want to lynch a town? Well you seem to be doing what you can in order to do so. yes he is together with sandroba. But we needed a better target than annul to get people off annul and on redFF, yourself or sandroba and redFF's case is just the same thing as annul's case, therefore it's not better unless you think both Palmar and I am wrong. | ||
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On December 12 2011 08:13 kingjames01 wrote: Quick Question: Does a normal non-powered player know if he was visited or targetted for a roleblock? From what I know you get a message if you are role blocked no matter if you got a power or not. So if you do not have a message telling you you got roleblocked you never were roleblocked. This is however how it normally works and I'm like 99% sure it works this way but I can't tell 100% of course. I had to ask about medic-confirmation-pm's as well. | ||
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Reasoning: I protected annul n1 and after what happened nobody would want to hit that as mafia. Rad was being called out by several for being scummy (wtf?) and Palmar was still kind of weird. Thought mafia might want to kill a blue instead of 2 people who are suspicious for some people. | ||
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On December 12 2011 09:00 kingjames01 wrote: My apologies! I'll fix it. I also have some working theories that I'm typing up but I didn't want to announce my post and then make you wait. For now, that post can be a resource which I will maintain. Please feel free to fill in any gaps or mention them as you have done. V7's action n1 : None. He can only use one action per cyle. He used his dayvig day1 (we all saw that) and therefore he was not able to use a night power according to his claim. Annuls Action n2: None. Pretty much the same as V7. He shot d2 => no n2 action he could have done. | ||
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RedFF's case was just the same as Annuls case. Sure there was a chance that redFF was going to flip red but it was about the same as annuls. No point in swapping votes from Drazerk to redFF (except if you're Drazerk yourself). Why did we get off Drazerk in the first place? | ||
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Now I'm going to make it easy, because it really is. There's basicly 2 options: 1) Annul is green 2) Annul is red The first one is easy. We had at some point like 9 or even 10 votes on him. People said that we don't have enough time to get a 2nd lynch option as well and we HAVE TO vote annul. First of all, that sounds really scummy, secondly they were wrong, we even managed to get a third option as well. Obviously mafia did not have a problem with lynching annul. Either because he is green or they were bussing him. HOWEVER Mafia had problems with lynching Drazerk because out of nowhere comes a third option that ends up being lynched while people are still argueing that even a 2nd vote option won't make it in time. The second one is a bit tricky but just isn't makeing sense at all. As mentioned if annul is red mafia could have bussed him or they could have defended him. Now if that'd be all we got that would look pretty strange, however we got that third guy (redFF) comming out of nowhere. Do you really believe mafia made us switche votes FROM annul TO Drazerk just to make us switch another time to RedFF? That's justpast belief. If mafia was really forcing a nolynch or a safe for annul there would not have been a 3rd guy arround who miraculously got enough to get lynched. That just doesn't add up. If Mafia was bussing annul there would not have been so many vote-switches in the first place. | ||
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On December 13 2011 11:01 Zephirdd wrote: you do realize that by saying that, you're essentially marking annul as a frame target right? Because of that, I probably won't investigate him. TBH I want to investigate xsksc. that's like the worst thing I ever had to read. | ||
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On December 13 2011 13:30 Refallen wrote: ...Roleblocked... and I actually protected Zeph too. I was roleblocked too o.O But not that it made a difference because I protected palmar. | ||
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On December 14 2011 02:48 Mattchew wrote: The WIFOM here on Palmar is brutal. The way I see it is either Annul is scum and wanted Palmar shut up, or Annul is town and Mafia wanted Palmar to look like he needed to be shut up. I don't think Draz lied about being roleblocked, and I think that he is town. I am starting to believe that both Draz and Annul are town. fuck. Yeah agree here with the wifom part. HOWEVER I think the reason why mafia wanted to kill palmar is because of his extra vote. Palmar is a townie that has 2 votes. Therefore when it felt like we had an additional townie because it's one townie more they need to convince to get a no-lynch. I still think Annul is kind of a coinflip, I'd much rather vote Drazerk but I'm going to ignore the wifom part of the palmar lynch because as mentioned I think he rather got killed to denie us 2 townie votes with just one kill. | ||
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On December 14 2011 05:02 Drazerk wrote: Toad's fault don't worry V7 how is it my fault I said I'm not going to vote Annul as long as V7 says Annul HAS TO BE town because of his weird role. So what's this all abut now? Someone care to explain or do I still have to blindly trust V7 now changing his mind? | ||
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Oh and since noone mentioned or quoted it I'll just bring it up another time: Yesterday both medics were roleblocke so Mafa really has 2 Roleblockers being able to RB us both all day long ;( | ||
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On December 14 2011 08:51 Drazerk wrote: Red + myself got role blocked on the same day so yeah 2 RBs yeah and last night refallen and I got roleblocked at the same time as well. So it's either 2 mafia roleblockers or 1 mafia and 1 town-RB who thinks that 2 of us (Drazerk, RedFF, Refallen, Me) are mafia. | ||
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Is there going to be more changes comming or do we now have a final statement? And yes I haven't voted yet because of what I said above. V7 first said he's scum, than he said he's not and I went to bed 2am. Now I woke up an see a shitload of text I have to read. | ||
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##vote annul | ||
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You are not the same joat as V7 is and although I think you're a coinflip he's way more proven townie than you are. So if it comes down to which of you two is mafia I'm clearly going to say it's you because V7 is way more townie. With different role set-ups it's just unlikely that you both have the same alignment. As mentioned, it's the same I told drazerk before I claimed. Oh and my read on V7 was wrong afterall? You said you were going to "visit erandorr tonight" 2 day ago I think and I thought you got a DT-option. With you saying annul got the same abilities I thought he got one as well and therefore can't be mafia | ||
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On December 15 2011 08:33 Mattchew wrote: anyone got a guess who we should lynch next if annul flips red lol yeah pretty easy one: sandroba | ||
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we're at lylo right now. That means mislynch = lose. Why would he say GG when he thinks (!) we finally got a mafia when we probably need something like between 3 to 6 right lynches in a row? (depending on how the KP of mafia is dealt with) | ||
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On December 15 2011 11:33 TruthBringer wrote: I don't think we have enough time to pull this off, especially because someone who we think is onboard with the switch could be a mafia and pull his vote at the last minute. Let's stick with annul, his claim is so full of holes. Rather than address the holes he is just insulting. You are the one guy missing. We got 9 people on sandroba right now. Now get your post in that voteing-thread and change to sandroba. we HAVE enough time to pull it off. | ||
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On December 15 2011 13:07 sandroba wrote: Come on bum, you gotta give me some credit =P You think I'd claim scum in thread with no motive behind it =D yeah srsly. I really thought you screwed it because SOMEHOW people managed to not understand it. Told you you should have written "FUCK YOU TOWN, ALL EUROPEANS ASLEEP, WE WIN" instead | ||
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On December 15 2011 13:09 TruthBringer wrote: okay medics, save the day and we know 5 mafia for sure  really don't want to bust your bubble, but medicS = medic | ||
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On December 15 2011 13:10 vaderseven wrote: 16 Players remain right now. 6 mafia = 3 kills. 16-3=13. Mafia you guys are fucking dumb. game. isnt. over!? it's 16 people, out of those 16 only 10 are town. 10v6 8v6 8v5 6v5 6v4 4v4 | ||
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yep | ||
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And that's my 1 post I have to do at night to not get modkilled. Won't say anything more without a lawyer :p | ||
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On December 15 2011 13:27 annul wrote: i went into the day with the plan of engaging somebody in a protracted debate that prevented town from getting reads or analysis done on anybody else. we knew we needed only 2 town to vote with us in the end and i thought at least 2 people would be willing to switch onto you. when we noticed this was unlikely, and that town would rather see a lynch of any type rather than nolynch (which is game over), Toad concocted this plan. You guys did all the fancy plans that gave me away. I was literally sitting there being forced to yet another time safe annul from being lynched. But this time it was my fancy plan and they did what I told them :p | ||
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He just keeps pm'ing | ||
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We got 4 mislynched in a row, we even got townies dayvigging each other, we even got mafias protecting each other day1 from town dayvigs. And STILL it's close as it can get. | ||
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On December 15 2011 14:33 sandroba wrote: LOL toad it's not imba, 6 mafia in 25 players already favors scum. We did some pretty risky shit and apparently it hasn't worked out, pretty fair if we lose this =P yeah but you have to get at least 4 mislynches in a row to stand a chance as mafia. Imagine this without me saving annul n1. Imagine this without v7 shooting v1. So in this setup you're supposed to get 4 or more mislynches in a row while not giving yourself away? | ||
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Or is it a problem that annul send in our actions because he's dead? | ||
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I'm a dumb person or you're talking fancy on purpose | ||
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you needed 2 succesfull saves + 1 right RB at the same time so it was (2/10)*(2/9)*(1/5) = 4 / 450 chance to win. well actually it's more like (2/10)*(2/9)*(1/3) because you guys already knew that you don't have to RB me or annul but yeah, still only a 4/270 chance | ||
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##win (you win the game). You can't even RB it because we can use it twice! | ||
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10 players alive := 10/2 +1 = 5+1 = 6 | ||
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On December 16 2011 09:36 kingjames01 wrote: Right, you're correct. =) However, I don't support sandroba's lynch today. is that because I voted sandroba and you think that I want to push "the wrong" one? Because I said a little earlier I'm going to vote VE as well to get this going and switched to sandroba because of you guys. Just mentioning because I'm going to bed in 10 minutes, if you want me to change something, tell me right now. | ||
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That must get you mad, just imagine palmar right now! He's probably raging like hell, and you want to denie that last atonement? | ||
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On December 16 2011 23:38 xsksc wrote: Nah, I think it was already established ages ago that Syllo would most likely have used his shot n1, and I don't see who else he would have shot. Toad practically confirmed himself when they were celebrating and thought it was gg anyway lol. We can lynch him after Viscera, don't worry, he'll flip medic yeah, stupid sheriff Thought that guy was a RB and from what I know now everything makes perfect sense. He did not RB me the night I claimed because he thought I'm mafia, he wanted to protect me because he thought I'm a townie medic. Actually both could be true but it was really stupid not to think of a sheriff. At a point we even thought you had a busdriver and therefore you got an additional medic because you "stole" my medic powers and put it on someone else. But in that case I should be dead by now. Took us too long to figure out it's a sheriff and that guy won the game on his own Nevertheless, we still got a chance of winning, you guys just need one mislynch or 2 nolynches in a row and we win (if we keep on killing you) :p | ||
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So a nolynch would make it 1v2 (because nolynch + night kill) and a mislynch would make it 1v1 = win for mafia :p | ||
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On December 17 2011 02:50 Drazerk wrote: So basically it makes sense to have a no lynch right after a the confirmed scum lynches instead of trying to guess to give us better odds? I don't know, if you want to risk that for better odds. We could have a joat or a vig to screw with that plan :p mass wifom incomming :p | ||
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That's wat I wanted to hear | ||
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Just don't want to edit it out because I'm not allowed to edit. | ||
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I will stick to the vote and you have to switch to me because I'm right about this! | ||
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quit the spam or incog will modkill you! | ||
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On December 17 2011 07:30 vaderseven wrote: With that roleblocker dead (and he roleblocked me last night btw) town finally has a real chance. I'm pretty sure that's a lie. And town has a chance? Town has this won unless you screw up and mislynch another time :p | ||
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##vote Toadesstern | ||
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##unvote Qatol | ||
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On December 19 2011 06:06 wherebugsgo wrote: Dead QT Role+Action list If someone has the scum IRC logs and wants to see them go ahead and post them. Probably not going to be terribly useful though. I'm going to write up some stuff and I'll post my comments. Incog probably will as well when he gets here. we kind of decided day2 (without even talking about it) that derping all the way works too. I do agree that our play was not optimal but it worked :p We 5 were literally sitting in that irc yelling LOOL WTF "how is that even working?" at each other and having a great time. I already told syllo I do agree that I think day2 annul bus would have been the optimal play but I still disagree that we should have bussed him day3 because with annul down sandroba and I would have died instantly. So if you want to judge our play I think the only thing you can really go by is day1 and n1, which I do not think was that bad. And no sry I do not have a log, jackal and risen are new to irc, sandroba was never in our chat. So maybe VE or annul got a log. | ||
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On December 19 2011 09:02 Curu wrote: lol that's a joke. If any of the capable Town players had survived (or had anyone even listened to them) Town likely had an overwhelming victory. I was talking with syllogism and we were able to establish Jackal as scum and redFF as Town in the first like 10 pages. You had Radfield and syllo pointing out how scummy Jackal was, you had Radfield AND syllo AND Palmar all telling you that annul was 100% scum. You had Toadesstern saying ridiculous shit like"I think annul is Mafia but since vaderseven said he is Town I will listen to vaderseven" which is basically CLAIMING MAFIA. The last minute switch to redFF I think is the worst play I have ever seen out of a Town in the history of Mafia games. It's hilarious how the three best players in the game all accuse annul and all die and almost the entire scum team was bussing annul when he first came under pressure and Town still refused to lynch him. I said "I think annul is a coinflip and I'm trusting v7 as long as we got another viable lynch candidate" but yeah. I have no idea how people thought I am town d2. I can understand d1 and I think for my first game as mafia I did okayish looking town but d2 people should have called me out for being retarded. I guess the only reason noone called me out for that (rad even defended me all game long) was because I'm still new and it really could be a retarded townie. However there really was no excuse for thinking I'm town d3 :p | ||
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Perhaps it's because we had a little activity problem as well. We haven't seen Sandroba in irc for a week and people called him out for doing nothing because he was busy while a lot of people did a lot of things without telling the rest what they're about to do. So we really thought we're dead if we don't save annul because again, sandroba was about to die as well if palmar had managed to kill annul (imo). We obviously did a lot wrong. Palmar having a 100% clear case on annul d2 is not exactly helping at all while at the same time sandroba was about to die or even modkilled because we never knew if he was going to vote in time or not. I thought (before n2) that the only 3 guys not being clear mafia at this time were jackal, risen and me and thought that the rest is going to get lynched very soon. That's part of the reason I agreed to commit so much. | ||
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On December 19 2011 09:31 Curu wrote: I only remember reading that one post but it was so ridiculous. Like you have syllo/Radfield/Palmar all telling you with great clearcut cases that annul is Mafia but instead you decided to listen to vaderseven who cleared him as Town entirely because of his role. It was such a deadset scum giveaway lol, especially the way you posted it without any regards to the cases. I am really surprised no one caught onto it. Luckily the entire Town decided to listen to vaderseven as well. yeah I was suprised as well. I was literally sitting in our irc channel saying "there's no way I can not vote for annul. I can not think of a single reason I should not vote for annul..." and sheeping someone was the only thing I came up with because that's a thing people will maybe give me because I'm still new :p | ||
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I guess I claimed mafia like 3 times without realising I just did :p | ||
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On December 19 2011 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote: Okay, let's do a little bit of counting. It took 9 to lynch that day. There were ultimately six townies on sandro. You and VE were #1 and #3, Toad was #4. You never unvoted. annul and risen were #6 and #7, respectively. Instead you could've kept your vote on annul, and allowed annul/Toad to lead the lynch on sandro. You wouldn't even have had to unvote. Risen and VE being incriminated because of the unvote was unnecessary. You could've stayed on annul and VE and Risen wouldn't have had to unvote. Sandro would've lived anyway. EDIT: Another way to think about it is this: you had 3 townies on sandro until vote #8. That's just overkill. no I don't think we could have done that. The only reason we got so many people on sandro afterwards was because we got a bunch of people on him. At some point annul was at 9 and sandroba at 8 while 10 was the majority. The point was, that town was not going to get another nolynch. It was only a couple hours before the deadline and we feared that some townies might hero unvote sandroba to get back on annul just to avoid another no-lynch. That was the reason we had to get risen and VE in the boat as well. And the mass unvote with 5 people. Yeah we discussed it and were afraid because 2 townies were watching the votes as well. We initially only wanted annul and me to unvote, once sandroba was 2 above majority risen was the next to unvote. At some point we decided to unvote everyone except jackal because if that move of ours is not going to work in the first place we just screwed everything anyways. | ||
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That move was stupid, it somehow worked and we had to roll with it the next couple of days imo. By that point annul, sandroba and I should have been 100% clear mafia. However town did not see that except for palmar and even he still thought I'm town which I just can't believe. But the moment annul would have flipped red they would have been able to see all those connections. They would have seen that VE was defending annul the whole game, they would have seen all things I had to do with annul, they would have seen sandrobs weird play and would have lynched us all 4 the next 4 days the moment annul flipped. So yeah, from n2 on I did everything I could to prevent an annul flip. And yes, we actually analyzed a bit about the town players, pointing out where their weaknesses are and how you can confince them of something that's just utterly retarded. | ||
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Annul was at 9 while at some point sandroba was 8 (or 8 vss 7?) and risen stepped in to even the votes. I'm sure of that! Once that happened a bunch of townies jumped on sandroba as well and we started to have droubles saving him. So those 5 votes short on annul didn't matter anymore, we had to defend sandroba at that point and that's "just" 3. But again, the reasoning behind this was something like "well we're giving everybody away anyway, might as well just unvote everyone. No point in hiding that unvote when they can easily see that without the unvote" | ||
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On December 19 2011 11:30 wherebugsgo wrote: This doesn't make sense, nor does it justify sacrificing VE and Risen. Saying "they would've died anyway" doesn't justify the sacrifice, because you have no way of knowing that. I liked sandro's play. However, annul+Risen messed it up by voting at #7 and #8. That was completely unnecessary. The point of a split vote situation for mafia is to barely get one of the members to majority so that an unvote will save them. Everyone who stays on the wagon is indistinguishable. Only the unvoters look scum, so you want to minimize the unvoters. It was possible to do the sacrifice with at least two less unvoters; I would argue that it would have been possible even in other ways (e.g. sacrificing Toad instead of sandro) yeah but without Risen voting sandroba sandroba was still 1 vote short and people said they don't believe we can make a voteswitch happen that late. We had to show that it's still possible because else people will just stay on annul. The moment risen voted sandroba and it was 8-8 we got 3 additional townies voting him because of "well I guess we're still able to make it in time without the euros" | ||
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On December 19 2011 11:37 wherebugsgo wrote: The three additional townies were completely unnecessary! Annul had already been saved BEFORE Risen voted him, and sandro was not in danger of being lynched. The point wasn't to bus sandro, it was to force a no-lynch. Thus, annul's and risen's votes were pointless. Sandro was at 6 when annul+Risen voted him and annul was at 8, with sandro and you being one of the 8. yes annul was 1 vote short on majorty, sandroba was 2 short on majority but as mentioned: We just feared that some townie would come along and hero unvote sandroba and vote annul because they realized that a no-lynch is going to lose the game. Edit: I'm pretty sure I wasn't on annul. I swapped to sandroba very early as well, way before risen did so. I doubt that I was one of those 8 or I did some wrong vote pattern oO | ||
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That's the first vote on sandroba. It's from jackal, VE was the 3rd one, I was the 4th one and annul was something later. With annuls vote sandroba was at 7 votes and I know by heart that annul was still 1 vote ahead of sandroba by the time risen came in and voted sandroba (or we counted wrong back than). So that makes 7-8 (you probably were right about the 9 to lynch because I also remember that annul was only 1 short to being lynched). That means that sandroba was the only one on annul and we had little influence about getting people off annul while having a LOT of influence of people getting off sandroba. So we got risen on sandroba as well, made it 8-8 and that's the point 3 townies voted sandroba as well: turth, refallen, V7, none of them wanted to vote sandroba but did so because they had to if I remember correctly. We only had one guy being able to unvote annul. So if 1 townie hero voted annul because he thought sandroba is not going to get lynched that'd be still fine because sandroba could have unvoted. With 2 hero townies we are doomed so we wanted to get more people on sandroba because again, we had way more influence about what happened with sandroba than we had about what was going to happen with annul if townies start to behave weird. | ||
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On December 19 2011 11:57 VisceraEyes wrote: The only reason I switched was because Annul was paranoid about town reacting to Toad unvoting...and later Annul when 1 more townie voted Sand. Annul wanted to make sure that even if town reacted, we secured the no-lynch. I agreed to it because Annul had proven (to me) that he can play scum. I had even planned to NOT switch in spite of telling everyone I was, but then I got paranoid that town would react and when the time came, I pulled the trigger. It doesn't matter though because the way we did it ended up paying off. We could have done it differently, maybe slightly more efficiently..but when Bum took the bait, our course was set. LOL thought the exact same thing. Would have been hilarious if everyone did that | ||
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At some point I even thought he might be crazy enough to claim RB-immune-medic to hide another power role beneath it because he thinks that everyone else thinks that he's bullshitting. That's the reason we roleblocked him one night because I was scared he might be the roleblocker town had or what-ever else could be still out there trying to cover it by being as weird as you can get, which blue's don't do. That move really made it easy to defend annul, stopped the talk about annul and made everyone discuss drazerk's move instead, which probably was a reason we got another nolynch on annul | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
1) Why was I suspicious d1? I thought I was doing quite ok d1 and most people thought so as well. I can see that I did a couple of slips (after d1) and obvisously everything with annul made me look like mafia but I don't know what made me look mafia on d1. 2) As already mentioned when talking to wherebugs I think the votecount you quoted is wrong or weird. Both VE and myself were voting sandroba early on and you mentioned we were not? 3) The roleblock on V7 was a mistake of ours. We thought that if we kill refallen the save he does will not happen and since we did not have a better target we wanted to play it safe and just rb V7. I even asked you about it in a pm but I guess it was too late :p So yeah, we thought a refallen kill nullifies his protection and therefore we thought we do not have to RB refallen. Those are the things I just saw and while 1) is a question I'd like to see the answer to improve and 2) and 3) are some things that we just saw in a complete other way resulting in bullshit of our own :p | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
The most important thing I got from this game is, if you think something is not going to work you probably should not do it as mafia :p I think I had a good chance getting in late game if I had not gotten myself involved in all that annul shit. And yes what wbg said really was the one thing I was worried about. I was dodging to pick targets several times while townie-Toad would be way more agressive and would be fosing people without being scared of getting attention. However I felt I got a decend chance in looking like a nooby townie who puts in some effort and it actually worked. If rad would have seen one of my townie games he probably never would have thought I'm a townie I guess but since he did not he thought I'm a new guy that's putting some effort in this game and got no defined reads because I'm new. Also since most people who are mafia for the first time are lurking quite a bit I tried to be vocal. Sure vocal like a nooby would be to roll with my image but that probably got rad thinking I'm not a mafia as well because my mafia buddies probably would have told me to not be vocal in my first game as mafia. To sum it up: The reason people thought I was townie was because I looked like a nooby without actually giving the sry-I'm-noob-excuse because noone likes that. Yeah what wbg and incog pointed out about me would have been an insta-lynch if it happened to more experienced players (and palmar already pm'ed me that he IS going to lynch me the next time that happens) but half the town did the same (lanaia for example quoted that one answer I was giving to rad wbg quoted and said exactly the same) so it really looked like a normal new townie that still does a couple of mistakes imo. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:24 Palmar wrote: that's exactly how I took prplhz's post, I assumed he agreed with me, and decided to sarcastically jump on sandroba's wagon. another funny sidenote: When you claimed dayvig and v7 claimed dayvig as well annul claimed dayvig as well but noone even mentioned it | ||
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