EPTStudent Mafia (New/Newish players welcome) - Page 59
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
so, my case First, On December 12 2011 01:12 layabout wrote: i understand why people are voting for BroodkingExe but right now i think that 1 player is not making sense and that their behaviour is scummy therefore ##Vote: xtfftc above post was on day 3, he says "I think x(in this case BKEXE) but im going to vote for y(xtf)" On December 11 2011 09:17 layabout wrote: franky i think BXE is the best lynch target at the current moment in time but we still have scum to find and we need to scumhunt (analysis coming tomorrow) so i decided to see why, you made a post in which you began by saying people would ignore you and then went on to make worthless speculation and unjustified assumptions i feel that i have highlighted why this is this case very clearly i cannot believe that you have not adressed any of my arguements but have instead tried to attack my possible motivation and you have mostly just provided fluff justify them then!don't just say i made assumptions we need to in this game that is an entirely worthless statement as was your poker "analogy" you just make general statement about making reads and how reads are more valuable the more time passes. This has nothing to do with what you had written if you make an argument based on reasoning then you better have solid reasoning because otherwise your post holds no weight it is not helpful to town (unless it reveals that you are scum) because your entire argument relies on reason that does not withstand scrutiny i think we are past the point of this being a useful exchange because you clearly don't understand or are ignoring the point that i have made explain yourself and then try to help town by analysing behaviour well, I cant say anything else but, things to consider He & Velinath has been agreeing alot. He's been tunneling xtf preety much since he was in the mafia | ||
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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
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ey215
United States546 Posts
Do you still believe I am mafia and if so/not what has changed about your opinion over the last couple of days? On December 14 2011 06:52 ey215 wrote: I'm frankly not sure what has been brought up/not brought up re:xtfftc at this point but I do have a question about this vote. Wouldn't a last minute surprise be a good thing for the town in many cases? A last minute switch screams mafia. Just wondering on your logic. I'd like this answered as well. | ||
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ey215
United States546 Posts
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:35 layabout wrote: i want you to look at this post and explain to me the errors you have made then apologise and lets move on sadly tunkeg never did respond to this post, so i will do it for him. this also adressed the point bluelightz made against me Sure both me and xtfftc should be looked into for beeing on the wrong side of both the lynches that have taken place he identifies bbyte flipping town and jay flipping scum and them voting bbyte/not voting jay as the thing that i am saying makes them scummy. I did NOT say that, i posted about how the things they said and didsuggests that they are mafia.he misrepresents my points and then labels them weak. the act of doing so is anti town.additionally he calls my case against xtfftc "one dimensional" "weak" and "desperate". Now if you are a town player and you think that a case is weak this is not the way to convince people that it is weak, by addressing the actual case itself and criticising it you can eliminate a bad case by showing that it is bad, discrediting a player or their posts in this way can be between null and scummy play.doing this in a post that is entirely to discredit a player is inexcusable because if you were sucessful a case would be dropped and a player would be ignored due to misrepresented and out of context information, and insults about my posts that are not related to their content. The most funny though is that after you first started the case on xtfftc: + Show Spoiler + On December 11 2011 02:21 layabout wrote: i need to take some time to try to understand Broodking 's post in the meantime i think that xtfftc: has made some glaring contradictions and that he owes and explanation Grackaroni highlighted this in an earlier post and i think you (xtfftc) need to expalin: you explicity state that you think Jay is the most likely to be scum and grack makes this point you call his "reasoning" (i see a simple statement of fact) "pure WIFOM" well where is the pure wifom in this? you have stated that you should only vote for mafia and that you should lynch your best read and yet in the above quote you do not do that here earlier you didn't you have a strong case on a player but you would rather not post it and you would rather vote for someone other than your best read? seriously? so you vote for BByte why? "its better than a last minute suprise" you just jump on a bandwagon another contradiction it also doesn't make sense that "to remind people that we have to catch the whole mafia team" could be a reason for a vote i also think your case against eye is weak i shall soon explain why. You proceed to post this on BKE: On December 11 2011 06:43 layabout wrote: i would like to post analysis before i vote and i still have plenty of time to do so but as it stands i don't feel like i can justify a vote for anybody over broodkingexe BKEXE if you are town please help!! because lynching a town today would really hurt our chances and people have so confidently voted for you they have barely been posting there has been very little discussion so far and so a mislynch would make today a huge waste of time that could have been spent scumhunting allow me to add context which you have left out. In the first post you quote i presented some things xtfftc had done that i felt he should explain and asked him to explain them. I then posted something similar regaurding your probability lynch post and why it was scummy. i continued to pressure you until i felt that very little to no more useful information could be obtained. the second post was part of the last real post (there was also a one liner from me) i made reaguarding you xtfftc then responded by not actually answering my questions, by trying to confuse and, i feel my posting strongly reflects that i found his responses extremely scummy. i tried again to get him to answer me he still didn't xtfftc then posted this: This might work with somebody else but not with me. I have addressed your questions but it's obvious that you want to waste my time now and to distract me the best you can. I am committed to providing more analysis and if you are so scared that you decide to shoot me or manage to somehow manipulate the town into lynching me, they will have a lot of information to work with after I flip green. As long as I continue contributing, my death wouldn't be that much of a problem for town, so I am not afraid of dying. But now that I refuse to play your game, you try to scare me into doing nothing else but defending myself. If you were town, you would have been happy to let me finish the BKE analysis because it is very important for us. Instead, you chose to be obtrusive, even though I already paid a lot of attention to you. It's not like I said I'm not going to answer you at all. I could have simply pretended I'm not checking the thread but only mafia are scared of some extra attention. he had not adressed my actual questions - he soft claims vanilla townie an action that has no value whatsoever to town because all players try to appear town aligned and claims of vanilla town cannot be proven until your dead (or possibly in this set-up an announced cop check and cop + other blue flipped) -he accuses me of trying to manipulate town and of trying to scare him into doing nothing but defending himself so in his eyes pressuring a player and asking them to EXPLAIN themselves is a scare tactic that hurts town, pressuring is good, mafia can seriously benefit from an environment without people pressuring or justifying how they act, (it makes it easier to hide). -saying he isn't afraid of dying in part is claiming vanilla town and is entirely unhelpful. -he also stresses the value of his contribution and mentions that he could have simply ignored my posts is he was mafia this implies that the act of responding makes he more town-like (in fact it doesn't). basically what he is saying boils down to "hey guys im town, this person asking me questions is mafia, did i mention that im town?" after seeing how he responded and without addressing any of the concerns i had raised about how he was likely mafia, i decided to vote for him. from this time onwards xtfftc has been my strongest scumread and the more he posts and trashes the thread the more convinced i am that he is scum and so i have tried to make my case as clear as possible. i then voted for him. Me you want to lynch based on my probability lynch he seems to think i wanted to lynch him based on his probability lynch, i asked him questions, i criticised his answers, i stopped posting about him and then i posted about and pushed someone else. i didn't even present a case on him. i never said that we should lynch him based on that post. this is another example of him misrepresenting me. I think you are trying your best to derail the BKE lynch i feel that my reasons for xtfftc being scum over BK are a lot more comprehensive than your reasons for eye215 being scum over jay. I also feel that my posts reflect that i had reasons for thinking the BK lynch was sensible, but also that i was no convinced by them and that i felt i had a better case and that we should lynch xtfftc over BK. I feel that my actions are much better than voting for BK at the start of the day, not adding anything and then scrathcing my head 48 hours later when BK flipped town + Show Spoiler + you all know who you are and I'm watching you do you really think trying to lynch xtfftc over BK and keep people posting makes me likely to be mafia? | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
well, I cant say anything else but, things to consider He & Velinath has been agreeing alot. He's been tunneling xtf preety much since he was in the mafia @ bluelights agreeing with somebody is a null tell tunneling and pushing a case are different things why have you suddenly started posting? coughcough | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 14 2011 06:14 Velinath wrote: so you just didn't explain it well i guess, whatever "whatever" *sigh* i didn't say the words "best read" anywhere. you're putting words in my mouth. cute, but come on, try harder than that. That's cheap, really cheap. In this post you replied to my explanation as to how "more likely" does not equal "best read" with the words "i see in your quotes: "three scummiest" "more likely to be scum" "his team (...) more likely"this implies that you sure as hell think he's scum." You did not bother to disagree with what layabout said and you've been supporting him all day long, so excuse me for not remembering that you never used these exact words. And once again, this is a double standard: layabout twisting my words into "best read" and refusing to admit he had no right to is perfectly acceptable but me losing track of all your accusations deserves a response such as "cute, but come on, try harder than that". You could, but it would be preposterous, considering that at the time of the vote (and plenty of times afterwards) I explained that I considered Jay to be dead already and I wanted to make a point that we have to discuss other players as well. Moreover, Jay was dead already, xsk as afk/replaced (I mentioned not being able to advance my case on him until layabout starts posting a few times), there was a case on BKE already, and I said that was the least scummy out of my list, so who else but EY was I supposed to vote for? On the last page of the thread someone brought up the fact that layabout's vote was just as "wasted" as mine was the day before. How is this okay but mine isn't? 5) a point that didn't mean anything, as layabout said the vote was completely useless, you could have accomplished just as much by just reminding us of the need for scumhunting without the excess voting 6) i'll pass on this one because you finally made a reasonable point 7) cast suspicion on ey215, a town player by my reads and filtering 5) It did lead to a discussion. 6) Oh, so you agree but you didn't bother changing your position on 5... Not to mention that this is not the first time I've made this point, it's just you not bothering to read my posts carefully until I made you a point by point plan. 7) So all of my analysis since Day 1 meant nothing, it's the single vote that's going to make EY look more suspicious... that doesn't justify wagon sheeping a townie, which is what you did ..........................................................so I was supposed to somehow know that he was town? you could have just as easily said "hey these are my other reads" Not only did I share my reads, I provided plenty of analysis. But, in case you haven't noticed, this town loves lurking. So go ahead, lynch me for trying to do something about it. you even said: WHY WOULD YOU VOTE FOR SOMEONE YOU BELIEVE TO BE TOWN. No word twisting here. You simply said "Hey, I think he's a townie, but here's my vote on him anyway". That is in no way a good idea. Ever. In fact the only reason to lynch a townie knowingly is if you are scum. I already addressed this this morning but just in case: I did not say he is town. Even just this one quote of you should be enough to put an end to your tunneling if there's any sense left in you. On December 14 2011 06:34 Velinath wrote: (his reasoning for lynching a townie - and even he says that he expects BKEXE to be a townie - day 3. Emphasis mine.) You are once again focusing on the part of my post that was discussing BKE's play on Day 1, while ignoring the rest that was about his play on Day 2 and 3. And this even after I explained it to you. On December 14 2011 06:16 Velinath wrote: already explained this. it's even on this page. it's like i have to scream at you to make a point. that was SPECIFICALLY in reference to your LAL stuff. which you FINALLY got around to explaining how you meant it in a clear enough manner that it would make sense to anyone else in the thread. irrelevant now, i suppose, but just goes to show how much attention you're paying It's not about what I was talking discussing (LAL or whatever), it's about you admitting that you were attacking me for something before you thought that I was lying. If you say "now I really DO think you're lying", what did you really Do think before? Could you answer what it was that you did think and put it in bold or something, so that it's clear. Plus, you have no right to suggest how the rest of the players are reading my words, especially when no one has agreed with you in the thread. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 14 2011 06:52 ey215 wrote: I'm frankly not sure what has been brought up/not brought up re:xtfftc at this point but I do have a question about this vote. Wouldn't a last minute surprise be a good thing for the town in many cases? A last minute switch screams mafia. Just wondering on your logic. It depends. On Day 2 we had just one case and very limited discussion, so a switch that leads to a townie lynch would have been blatantly obvious. On Day 1 we had a few cases, so a switch could have been masked much better. As for bigger games, last minute switches almost always benefit mafia because there's more people voting and it's hard to distinguish between the lurking mafia and newbie townies. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:41 xtfftc wrote: It depends. On Day 2 we had just one case and very limited discussion, so a switch that leads to a townie lynch would have been blatantly obvious. On Day 1 we had a few cases, so a switch could have been masked much better. As for bigger games, last minute switches almost always benefit mafia because there's more people voting and it's hard to distinguish between the lurking mafia and newbie townies. so did day 1 or day 2 have better cases? | ||
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ey215
United States546 Posts
I'm not fully convinced either way by the case on layabout or the case on xtfftc. I am not comfortable voting for either at this point. Who I am comfortable voting for is Bluelightz. I find it highly suspicious that he wasn't modkilled, I find it highly suspicious that he's only ever posted when ti's been close that he might be modkilled and he's added absolutely nothing of value to the discussion and his "case" on layabout is absolute crap. I also think he's the mafia's roleblocker. ##Vote: Bluelightz | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:22 ey215 wrote: Question for xtfftc: Do you still believe I am mafia and if so/not what has changed about your opinion over the last couple of days? I still do. You've hardly given any opinions since I stopped tunneling you (with the only real contribution being you mostly disagreeing/somewhat agreeing with layabout's initial posts on me and Tunkeg, but this is not enough - and it would be wise for the two of you to disagree in the thread anyway) , so the only way I could change my opinion is if someone else acts in such a scummy fashion that leaves no doubt. Let's go quickly through the list of possibilities: BH - town. We all agree, I think. Tunkeg - town. He hasn't contributed a lot but it's enough for a good read. I'm sure that if he was mafia, we would have found reasons to put him under more pressure. Velinath - as much as I hate to say it, town. I would love to call him mafia but it makes no sense. Him tunneling on me so ferociously while committing many factual mistakes fits his play: he focuses on just one player (first it was BKE and now it's me) and he builds up his case as he goes, so he gets things wrong. Studying for his finals has had impact on his analysis as well. And even from a purely theoretical perspective... why would mafia need him to go after me like this when he wasn't a main target? Bussing layabout would have made much more sense than going all out after me. Bluelightz - the only player I can imagine being mafia if you flip town. But he's a lurker, and lurkers simply ruin the game because they are always a gamble. Remember Day 1 and me arguing against everyone about policies in general and Lynch All Lurkers in particular? How I kept saying that it sounds good in theory but in reality it doesn't work? We lynched Bbyte based on the policy but this didn't scare the others into contributing. Bluelightz is the latest example and we can't do much about it. If he doesn't care the post, he doesn't care if he gets lynched as well. So he's putting the town into a very shitty situation. If he's town, he's way too lazy - and if he's mafia, he's playing way too dirty. I have no ideas but hoping for a DT to check him - but we don't even know if we have a DT and whether he'd be able to do it before he dies. So it just sucks. I must say that I feel that the questions you've been asking as of late have been very pro-town. Although this is also good mafia play (asking good questions and appearing to contribute without puting yourself out there as much), it helps town. If you're really not mafia, you should back it up with more analysis because the game is almost over, one way or another. | ||
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ey215
United States546 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:41 xtfftc wrote: It depends. On Day 2 we had just one case and very limited discussion, so a switch that leads to a townie lynch would have been blatantly obvious. On Day 1 we had a few cases, so a switch could have been masked much better. As for bigger games, last minute switches almost always benefit mafia because there's more people voting and it's hard to distinguish between the lurking mafia and newbie townies. Thanks for the answer. Could you answer my other question as well please? "Do you still believe I am mafia and if so/not what has changed about your opinion over the last couple of days?" | ||
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ey215
United States546 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:18 ey215 wrote: Thanks for the answer. Could you answer my other question as well please? "Do you still believe I am mafia and if so/not what has changed about your opinion over the last couple of days?" ebwop: Well ignore that.  | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 15 2011 03:51 layabout wrote: so did day 1 or day 2 have better cases? Day 2 had better cases but Day 1 had better discussion. Who is your third mafia read in case I'm red? And if I flip green, who would be the second one? | ||
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Velinath
United States694 Posts
That's cheap, really cheap. In this post you replied to my explanation as to how "more likely" does not equal "best read" with the words "i see in your quotes: "three scummiest" "more likely to be scum" "his team (...) more likely"this implies that you sure as hell think he's scum." You did not bother to disagree with what layabout said and you've been supporting him all day long, so excuse me for not remembering that you never used these exact words. And once again, this is a double standard: layabout twisting my words into "best read" and refusing to admit he had no right to is perfectly acceptable but me losing track of all your accusations deserves a response such as "cute, but come on, try harder than that". Because I definitely also twisted your words into "best read". That makes sense. Okay. So I'm supposed to feel ashamed because you're accusing me of saying something I didn't? You're breaking my brain now. I also never addressed the issue with what layabout said. I never took into account the words "best read". Stop insinuating that I did. If you're going to whine about getting your words twisted by someone else, don't twist mine. | ||
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Velinath
United States694 Posts
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ey215
United States546 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:17 xtfftc wrote: I still do. You've hardly given any opinions since I stopped tunneling you (with the only real contribution being you mostly disagreeing/somewhat agreeing with layabout's initial posts on me and Tunkeg, but this is not enough - and it would be wise for the two of you to disagree in the thread anyway) , so the only way I could change my opinion is if someone else acts in such a scummy fashion that leaves no doubt. Let's go quickly through the list of possibilities: BH - town. We all agree, I think. Tunkeg - town. He hasn't contributed a lot but it's enough for a good read. I'm sure that if he was mafia, we would have found reasons to put him under more pressure. Velinath - as much as I hate to say it, town. I would love to call him mafia but it makes no sense. Him tunneling on me so ferociously while committing many factual mistakes fits his play: he focuses on just one player (first it was BKE and now it's me) and he builds up his case as he goes, so he gets things wrong. Studying for his finals has had impact on his analysis as well. And even from a purely theoretical perspective... why would mafia need him to go after me like this when he wasn't a main target? Bussing layabout would have made much more sense than going all out after me. Bluelightz - the only player I can imagine being mafia if you flip town. But he's a lurker, and lurkers simply ruin the game because they are always a gamble. Remember Day 1 and me arguing against everyone about policies in general and Lynch All Lurkers in particular? How I kept saying that it sounds good in theory but in reality it doesn't work? We lynched Bbyte based on the policy but this didn't scare the others into contributing. Bluelightz is the latest example and we can't do much about it. If he doesn't care the post, he doesn't care if he gets lynched as well. So he's putting the town into a very shitty situation. If he's town, he's way too lazy - and if he's mafia, he's playing way too dirty. I have no ideas but hoping for a DT to check him - but we don't even know if we have a DT and whether he'd be able to do it before he dies. So it just sucks. I must say that I feel that the questions you've been asking as of late have been very pro-town. Although this is also good mafia play (asking good questions and appearing to contribute without puting yourself out there as much), it helps town. If you're really not mafia, you should back it up with more analysis because the game is almost over, one way or another. Again thanks for answering, it helps clarify some things for me. I'll respond to only one point and that's the last paragraph. The reasons I'm asking better questions is that I'm working on something in my head and am just not all the way there yet. I know we're down to the end of all of this and it's time to pull it out but I don't want to half ass a case like I did against you/grack. Actually, now that I've been thinking about it on BH, while I think we all agree he's town has anyone else found him to be less engaging since say the middle of day 3? Like he's almost stepped back a bit. I'm not sure why the change or if I'm just imagining it. | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:22 Velinath wrote: Because I definitely also twisted your words into "best read". That makes sense. Okay. So I'm supposed to feel ashamed because you're accusing me of saying something I didn't? You're breaking my brain now. I also never addressed the issue with what layabout said. I never took into account the words "best read". Stop insinuating that I did. If you're going to whine about getting your words twisted by someone else, don't twist mine. You never did, this was the point of my criticism when I wrote "you did not bother to disagree with what layabout said". | ||
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xtfftc
United Kingdom2343 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:26 ey215 wrote: Actually, now that I've been thinking about it on BH, while I think we all agree he's town has anyone else found him to be less engaging since say the middle of day 3? Like he's almost stepped back a bit. I'm not sure why the change or if I'm just imagining it. He has. I think he may have decided to keep a lower profile because he felt that it's not good for town to sheep after him. The previous two days he put his vote on someone very early and this person got turbolynched, which discouraged discussion about others. Or maybe he's just busy or tired of the game or he's too busy laughing at our stupidity in the mafia QT or whatever ^^ | ||
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