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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Let me be more clear for you. You're saying sinani is not reading the thread, therefore he is scum. Why is it that you are selectively using this logic, and not applying it to nisani? Oh, right, cause you have an agenda. Sinani is playing like he plays as town. You probably weren't paying attention in PYP, but when he's scum he's a grade of useless even below his current level of useless. If he flips scum I will be shocked. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Sinani is not going to help us find scum if he's town, but that doesn't mean we should lynch him day 1. He's one of those players who's better off taking a vig shot. We need to catch SCUM in this thread. If "at worst" your target is a bad townie then you're probably not distinguishing the bad townies from the actual scum. Now you admit that you haven't paid attention to nisani. If you are truly town, step up your play and stop selectively reading. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 10:54 chaoser wrote: You say this to me and yet excuse this exact reasoning used by many others to vote for kenpachi and myself such as palmar and cyber_cheese? What are you talking about? One of Kenpachi/Lanaia pretty much needed to die. I was, for the most part, either asleep or at class when the Kenpachi/Lanaia stuff blew up. The Kenpachi vote was completely out of my control, there's no point in talking about it now. Not to mention, that issue is completely different. Sure, Kenpachi might make a good vig. That's on the assumption that he is a vig (he didn't claim). In addition, Lanaia's anti-vote on him meant that we NEEDED to lynch one of them. There was no choice, we need the information. If one of them is scum the other is almost guaranteed to be scum, simply because an anti-vote on day 1 like that is incredibly scummy. Notice how Lanaia has had almost no thread presence since then. If kenpachi flips scum then this is probably why. She excused herself and said sorry and now has had no influence on town concerns at all. I understand kenpachi was raging and if he was town that's probably why he's not here right now, but really? You can't compare the two. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Kenpachi (14): bumatlarge, DCLXVI, prplhz, Drazerk, Zephirdd, Lanaia (Anti-Vote), Palmar, GreYMisT, risk.nuke, Tyrran, Lemonwalrus, -Lanaia (Anti-Vote), Hiroruby, sinani206, Nisani201, Cyber_Cheese sinani206 (14): chaoser, GreYMisT, Lanaia, DCLXVI, Drazerk, Cyber_Cheese, risk.nuke, LSB, Tyrran, Forumite, Lemonwalrus, Zephirdd, HarbingerOfDoom, hyshes All of you who voted both of those players: fuck you. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Kenpachi (14): bumatlarge, DCLXVI, prplhz, Drazerk, Zephirdd, Lanaia (Anti-Vote), Palmar, GreYMisT, risk.nuke, Tyrran, Lemonwalrus, -Lanaia (Anti-Vote), Hiroruby, sinani206, Nisani201, Cyber_Cheese sinani206 (14): chaoser, GreYMisT, Lanaia, DCLXVI, Drazerk, Cyber_Cheese, risk.nuke, LSB, Tyrran, Forumite, Lemonwalrus, Zephirdd, HarbingerOfDoom, hyshes All of you who voted both of those players: fuck you. EBWOP | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 11:15 Nisani201 wrote: DCLXVI Drazerk Zephirdd GreYMisT risk.nuke Tyrran Lemonwalrus Cyber_Cheese These people voted for both Kenpachi and sinani206. There is 1-2 scum on this list. Drazerk is one of them yay unsubstantiated assumptions. I hope you die tomorrow, regardless of whether I live tonight or not. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 12:00 Forumite wrote: WBG, I´d take a look at players who were on only one of the lynches, players who posted that both were scummy, but only voted on one of them, players who had allready gotten one Townie killed and didn´t want to attract too much attention by voting on two. Players who hang back and blame others for the mislynches. Those who voted for both victims look bad, but I think they look like bad Townies. That´s my opinion at least, that Scum are the ones avoiding the second lynch. If they dared to lynch sinani, then it wouldn´t have taken so long to get those final votes. This was exactly what I was thinking. Mostly the singular early and late votes. One of them is you though lolol | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
We need to think about how we are going to approach tomorrow. I think we should consolidate for the first half of tomorrow. Let's focus and build cases on people. None of that "I'm going to randomly vote people to get reactions" business. In the second half we begin focusing on the best cases and voting those. I will be very suspicious of anyone who decides to piss away tomorrow again the same way we did today. We cannot afford to lynch multiple townies, and we must lynch at least one of the people like Nisani who today did nothing but randomly voted people for no reason and seeded chaos in the thread. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I would be okay with lynching him if it wasn't for the fact that other scummy players are fine with lynching him, which probably means he's not scum. On the other hand, nisani and chaoser have deliberately avoided mentioning each other. That's pretty strange. Of course we can't make a connection until one of them flips. One of them needs to flip. I hope the vigilantes do their job. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 16:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Started re-reading the thread, only had time to get to ~page 35, but I figured I'd leave my thoughts so far before I go for now. Upon re-reading I think Lemonwalrus and Cyber_Cheese need a closer looking at, and would encourage everyone to do so. I still don't like Drazerk, and he seems dead-set on convincing us he will be useless whether he is town or scum. Not sure how much effort should be spent on him, but I'd like him to end up dead sooner rather than later. I also don't like the looks of LSB too much, but he is currently exceeding 24 hours without posting, so I don't see the point of pursuing something there unless he comes back before getting mod-killed. Regarding Nisani, this is the only post of his I really dislike: Other than that I don't see anything that makes me want to get my pitchfork out. I am undecided on WBG, Chaoser, and Palmar as of right now, but would not be surprised if one of the three is scum. However, I would be surprised if more than one of them is. Outing to the whole thread who you're undecided on for no particular reason is completely useless and is actually probably detrimental. Good scum will see that and jump all over it, using your indecisiveness to push their agenda without you even knowing they're modifying your opinions. This is particularly dangerous if a lot of people share your views and it is apparent to scum. Instead, in order to give yourself better reads of people you find to be on the fence, make a case on someone and then watch your targets react to that case. Good townies deal on a need to know basis, and unless you think you're going to die there's no point in pushing all your reads into the thread all at once. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 17:32 LSB wrote: Palmar is Mafia Is working is magic :D As I have repeated many many times, one of the hardest things to do in mafia is to make analysis against a townie. If your not going to do this you have to A) Lurk, B) Bandwagon C) Not say anything relevant Note what these three are? What you guys think are the biggest 'tells' in mafia. ^^ The biggest trap most mafia members fall into is that they force analysis, because they have to. They need to convince the town that a fellow townie is mafia. And in order to do this, they force analysis. There are a few characteristics of forced analysis 1) Warping people's words- it's much easier to argue against "I shot the sheriff" than "I protected the sheriff and that's why KP was lowered" 2) Making logical fallacies- These are unconscious. When you desperately attempt to prove someone to be mafia, you start making bad/erronious connections. 3) Go after easy targets- it's easy to hide amongst a crowd. This is not necessarily true for forced analysis. Thesis: Palmar's little insight rests solely on logical fallacies, which are made because he is forcing analysis. Therefore Palmar is mafia. First of all, this post contains two big logical fallacies. Metagaming and No True Scotsman 1) Metagaming- Remember, this game is played online. Unlike RL mafia, where 'tells' or 'nerves' get in the way, play style between town and mafia is very hard to distinguish. If you want to make comparisons it requires a lot of analysis and supporting claims. I cannot think of a way to be able to realistically call anyone's meta. Palmar is brushing over and claiming that chaoser is "analytical and critical as town" and never such as mafia. [spoiler]I'm not saying that metagaming is invalid, but what I am saying is that Palmar hasn't shown that this is Chaoser's true metagame. I've played with Chaoser many times and I highly doubt that this is anywhere close to Chaoser's true metagame[spoiler] 2)No True Scotsman Explination- Palmar is theorizing what optimal town play and blaming Chaoser for not following it. Noone does optimal town play. People have things called 'playstyles' and 'personalities' + Show Spoiler + If I did, I wouldn't be sick and I'd be spamming the thread Palmar actually explains No True Scotsman the best So he's being hypocritical right off the bat too Again, Meta Fallocies, and a quick town tell on sinani who up to the point of Palmar's post did not post anything substantial. I don't know how Palmar can be 100% sure that Sinani is town but even if it is true (And we ignore the fact that Palmar is using s**y scumtells) it leads us to the next fallacy Anyone who Votes for a Town is Mafia- I hope I don't have to explain why this is wrong. Palmar is trying to analyze spam. This is going too far. If your trying to put words into someone's mouth and analyze spam you are forcing analysis. 1) No true Scottsman 2) His argument is essentially, Kenpachi is scum so Lania is scum. This is another fallocy, since at the time Kenpachi hasn't flipped. And that's why Palmar was so quick to push a day 1 lynch. Oh looks like Palmar gets out once he realizes Lania is actually going to be lynched. What happened to 'sticking to your beliefs' and 'definatly going to lynch her' now  TLDR: Palmar is mafia because his case on Chaoser was horrible and consisted only of logical fallacies. LSB your activity levels concern me. Why is Palmar scum for his analysis being bad, but chaoser is not because his analysis was even shittier? Remember, chaoser was the biggest force driving people to vote sinani. People may not realize this, but he pretty much single handedly led town to lynch someone they shouldn't have been lynching. So why is it that you picked Palmar and not chaoser? What makes chaoser's cases better than Palmar's? Why are you not concerned about a player like Nisani, who has multiple shitty cases? Hardest part of playing scum is making cases, according to you. Yet, you're not focusing at all on the people who straight up failed to come up with cases, instead throwing their votes and then yelling over and over to get people to listen to them. Sadly their voices were so loud that these sheep actually followed them. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 17:45 LSB wrote: I haven't analysed on Chaoser/Nisani yet so I can't give you a definite answer and will not comment on their play. But you must remember a few things 1) Lynches are more often than not Townie-Townie. Many games have been lost because Day 1 Mislynch, Day 2 Go after the person who pushed the Day 1 lynch, and hit a mislynch 2) Just because there are people who look like scum doesn't mean we should ignore Palmar. 3) I didn't say that Palmar's analysis is bad. I said his analysis is forced. There is a crucial difference. You say it's forced but you don't really show how. How much have you played with Palmar in the past? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Your entire argument about Palmar can't discern bad analysis from forced analysis, yet you say there's some sort of crucial difference. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On November 18 2011 18:21 LSB wrote: x.x Read the first few paragraphs again... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252145 Guess you didn't understand my post, did you? 1) Warping people's words- it's much easier to argue against "I shot the sheriff" than "I protected the sheriff and that's why KP was lowered" 2) Making logical fallacies- These are unconscious. When you desperately attempt to prove someone to be mafia, you start making bad/erronious connections. 3) Go after easy targets- it's easy to hide amongst a crowd. This is not necessarily true for forced analysis. Thesis: Palmar's little insight rests solely on logical fallacies, which are made because he is forcing analysis. Therefore Palmar is mafia. If Palmar's insights rest solely on logical fallacies, what's separating his so-called "forced" analysis from bad analysis? You say there is a crucial difference, but have not shown it. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Both the kenpachi lynch and the sinani lynch were horrible, yet you don't seem to realize your own mistake in voting sinani. What I'm not understanding is why you're being so selective. I am not ignoring anything; Palmar was not using bad logic. I actually agree with his meta assessment of chaoser. You don't for whatever reason, so you're spinning that into bad logic. It's not bad logic at all. A player plays a certain way as a certain alignment. When you see them deviate strongly from that pattern you become suspicious. It's completely natural and a very effective way of catching scum. This is all Palmar is saying, and in this situation you are the one twisting things. Second, Palmar does not utilize a no true Scotsman fallacy. Hell, I don't even know where you're getting that from. Palmar was dead correct on how townies should try to get their targets lynched. Playstyles might be different but chaoser as town is not completely haphazard and he does not vote people moronically. He uses logic and reasons out his votes. In this game all his votes have been complete trash. You don't seem to understand the logical fallacy you're accusing Palmar of. It's actually quite funny. Then you go on to claim that Palmar was 100% sure sinani was town. Again, this is based on meta, and anyone who voted sinani yesterday wasn't thinking. Which, by the way, includes you. Any person who reasoned for more than five seconds would see that literally no one was defending sinani. It was the easiest bandwagon in the history of bandwagons. There was no backlash. The bandwagon was brainless. Sinani's meta did not fit. He never once said anything scummy. He was lynched entirely on him being bad and useless as town. AKA, on his meta. You were one of those votes. Now you are the hypocrite. | ||
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