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I wonder if LSB is genuinely this bad, or if he's scum.
You see, I am not mafia, and I'm not worried about being lynched because you're never going to convince enough people that I am, because just like you accuse myself of, you're pushing a terrible case.
I don't get it though, I'm perfectly fine with you calling my arguments bad, what I don't understand is for someone who accuses me of making logical leaps and being hypocritical, how you can allow yourself to ignore your own leaps. You say mafia like to put words in people's mouths, but you do exactly the same. You accuse me of using something called No True Scotsman, yet I see no distinction from how I applied it to how you apply it.
I'm just going to admit, I'm trying really hard to be nice this game, so I'm going to refute your case in four points and let town decide.
1. Regarding that scotsman thing
Palmar is theorizing what optimal town play and blaming Chaoser for not following it.
I accuse chaoser of not playing optimally for being a vanilla town, and because that's his claim and his play doesn't match, therefore he must be scum
How is this different from you theorizing what standard scum play looks like, and then blaming me for following it?
But even ignoring how hypocritical your assumption is, I wonder how you expect us to catch mafia if not by trying to figure out which player in the game is not playing with honest intentions. This is how I have always played the game, I look for tiny things that tilt a player one way or the other, and then try to build a case around them.
Funny thing is that you yourself did notice I don't apply the "optimal town play" universally, I just use it where I believe it's applicable.
Again, Meta Fallocies, and a quick town tell on sinani who up to the point of Palmar's post did not post anything substantial. I don't know how Palmar can be 100% sure that Sinani is town but even if it is true (And we ignore the fact that Palmar is using s**y scumtells) it leads us to the next fallacy
Sinani206's play is so far from optimal for town that it's borderline disgusting, that doesn't change the fact I deduced he wasn't mafia and did not vote for him. I did not expect sinani206 to play well, he never does.
2. Putting words in people's mouth
2) His argument is essentially, Kenpachi is scum so Lania is scum. This is another fallocy, since at the time Kenpachi hasn't flipped.
No, it isn't, you're doing the very thing you yourself listed. Read the post you quoted again, at no point did I draw a line between Kenpachi's alignment and Lanaia's alignment, that's straight up false. My push against Lanaia is solely based on me wanting to policy lynch her for making a bad move.
3. Sticking to my beliefs... what?
Oh looks like Palmar gets out once he realizes Lania is actually going to be lynched. What happened to 'sticking to your beliefs' and 'definatly going to lynch her' now
Please tell me where I claimed that I would stick to my beliefs no matter what? I am perfectly okay with changing my mind. So you're accusing me of changing my mind... well... yeah?
I did change my mind, that's actually true... I don't know how to respond the the accusation I must be mafia because I changed my mind.
The only thing that is making me hesitate calling you straight up mafia LSB is the fact that it would be very weird play by mafia to post a case like this against me during the night. It's definitely far from being a proof you're just misguided town, but at least it gives you the benefit of the doubt.
And yeah, I'm going to keep comparing people's play with how I would expect them to play. You think what you want about that.
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@risk.nuke:
Expecting town to stop playing like shit is pretty futile. Did you read sinani206's role? He could easily have claimed that and then stopped actions for one night to prove that at least he was telling the truth about his role. However, sinani206 doesn't actually want to win as town, so he chooses to troll instead.
Another example is Lanaia, she's not new to mafia, and anyone who gives the issue half a thought should understand why what she did was bad. That didn't stop her.
Still, there is a marked difference between the apathy of Sinani206 and for example the aggressive uselessness of Nisani201, which is why I concluded the former wasn't mafia, and the latter was.
As for townies, any medics should be protecting into this group of players:
Forumite
Tyrren
risk.nuke
Palmar
Wherebugsgo
If we have investigative roles, we should be checking into this group of players
chaoser
Lemonwalrus
Greymist
Bumatlarge
Zephirdd
If we have vigilantes they should be focusing on people who are hellbent on being useless and scummy to boot.
Nisani201
Drazerk
xskxc
etc
etc
Yes, i'm directing blues, what about it bitches?
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Click your own filter, you have 1 post that consists of more than 5-ish lines, and even that has very little information. Your primary responsibility as town is to establish your innocence and being transparent, with almost nothing to go on except you chasing after Drazerk you look pretty bad.
In fact, the fact that you question it so genuinely is probably the most townie thing you've done the entire game. That doesn't change the fact that while we are aware you want to lynch Drazerk, you haven't done much to share any of your other reads.
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(when I say 1 post, I'm discounting THIS as it's not actually a contribution that says anything about your alignment.)
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btw, I have an free hour or two, so if anyone wants to know anything about the game, this is the time to ask.
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I was under the impression Lanaia has played quite a bit on globalgamers (IRC mafia) I recall something about that from PTP2. If I'm wrong, well then I'm sorry I guess.
Because chaoser, believe it or not, my entire case against you is based on the assumption that you're very good at mafia, I said right at the start of the game that you are a top 5 player in this game. If I happen to be wrong, I would like to minimize the damage town takes from me being wrong. Now I don't think I am wrong, but I am playing to win, not playing to prove myself awesome.
You will not be useless if you're town, I trust that. So I see no reason you should be shot like any common scummy fucker, you deserve a trial and a lynch.
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yah, do you have a problem with that?
Like, I'm almost just as certain that nisani201 is scum, and I don't care if some hero of the town shoots him and leaves him dead in a ditch, he's not going to be useful anyway. Even if he's town nothing of value was lost.
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On November 18 2011 23:55 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Because chaoser, believe it or not, my entire case against you is based on the assumption that you're very good at mafia, I said right at the start of the game that you are a top 5 player in this game. If I happen to be wrong, I would like to minimize the damage town takes from me being wrong. So you're saying your case has no weight in it at all since it's entirely based on the fact that in your mind I'm not playing "good" (I think you mean well). And was that a backhanded insult lol?
The case does of course have weight in it, but yes, if someone else had done exactly what you did I may have drawn a different conclusion. Why do you care so much?
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I'm reading through various filters and looking at interactions at the moment. this post will be written as a flow of my thoughts, I'll just point out whatever that strikes me as odd or interesting.
Part 1
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On November 19 2011 00:05 chaoser wrote:
Oh also, you never answered my question about why you thought kenpachi was a good lynch but sinani wasn't an equally good lynch.
Cause I'm awesome, also, as risk.nuke pointed out, lynching Kenpachi was a good way of handling the Lanaia/Kenpachi situation.
sinani206 didn't look like scum, I said it in the the thread that the easiest explanation was that he was town. Of course town went ahead and lynched him anyway, but hey... that's what towns tend to do.
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Accusing me of changing my mind?
And what are you implying with "doesn't do it"? I forgot to write an analysis on Tyrran, but I later delivered (and was pleasantly surprised by what I found).
Stop posting this bullshit, I'm trying to read through everyone's filter.
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Cause I'm only 90% confident in my reads, like, I know I'm on something like a 8-9 game streak of pushing mafia as day 1 lynch when I'm town, but that doesn't give me the right to be cocky or arrogant about it. Now go read the rest of the game, you're getting boring.
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On November 19 2011 00:23 xsksc wrote:
Well Palmar, here's my thoughts.
I think the Kenpachi/Sinani lynches were silly. The only real scum read I have right now is on Drazerk. I'm not sure about Chaoser, I don't know his meta so it's harder for me to form an opinion on his town play. There are a couple of others I'm undecided on.
People I think are town :
wherebugsgo
palmar
risk.nuke
harbingerofdoom
lanaia
forumite
People I think are scum/I'm suspicious of :
prphlz
chaoser
drazerk
lemonwalrus
That's my current opinions, I have nothing solid to go on with chaoser/prphlz/lemon though.
Also, I'm really surprised I made it onto your vig list. I actually made a case on someone and stuck with it, I didn't join those ridiculous bandwagons that got two of our blues killed day 1.
well, to be fair, maybe it's just best if vigis hold their shots.
I can relate to your list though I don't agree with all the reads (pending re-reading I'd say harbringer could be scum, and prplhz could be town).
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On November 19 2011 00:25 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:23 Palmar wrote:
Cause I'm only 90% confident in my reads, like, I know I'm on something like a 8-9 game streak of pushing mafia as day 1 lynch when I'm town, but that doesn't give me the right to be cocky or arrogant about it. Now go read the rest of the game, you're getting boring. wow...I didn't realize being 90% confident in your reads would still mean you doubt them so much that you'd want someone to be investigated instead of killed on the spot. So that must mean you're more then 90% confident that Drazerk and such are mafia? Since you asked for them to be shot?
Please stop the ridiculousness already.
You are active and smart enough to be properly interrogated, you're going to provide cases and you will show your true colors. Shitty people will probably just respond with oneliners and useless stuff, so they're better dealt with by vigilantes.
You know this.
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On November 19 2011 00:26 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 18:56 Palmar wrote:
Sinani206's play is so far from optimal for town that it's borderline disgusting, that doesn't change the fact I deduced he wasn't mafia and did not vote for him. I did not expect sinani206 to play well, he never does.
You didn't expect sinani to play well and yet you somehow expected Lanaia and Kenpachi to play well and because Lanaia made a mistake/didn't play well she needed to be lynched? Mind blown
I don't see the problem.
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Part 2
- Kibibit is just another semi-lurking null-read. He does have some interesting ideas that look like attempts at genuine contribution, but I'm not willing to actually give him a town stamp at the moment, but I think others should be looked at before him.
- Zephirdd is almost definitely town, gotta roll with that at the moment, I see no reason to try and hang him at the moment. I would rather we focused on the red looking people or the null-reads. I like this guy.
- Lemonwalrus is null, leaning slightly towards scum. I don't like much of what he's posted, but it's not clearly scummy, just a bit off at the moment. I would actually suggest him as a great DT check tonight.
- Bumatlarge has made some very strange moves, the prime one being this one
Coag only posted twice, but I do recall him lurking in the beginning last time I played with him. I forget if he was a scum that game. I'd be more afraid of active scum Coag, then lurking scum coag, as vets who lurk have no presence in a game with a lot of fresh faces Now, I'm not saying he's completely wrong, I'm just saying that it makes no sense for town to give an excuse for lurking. Another good candidate for a DT check.
- cyber_cheese is just very hard to read in general. So I'm just gonna have to stick him as a null read for now. I know he's capable of playing aggressively as scum, but this looks like a more thought out version of cheese's play, which can be explained by him being town.
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On November 19 2011 00:34 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:29 Palmar wrote:On November 19 2011 00:25 chaoser wrote:On November 19 2011 00:23 Palmar wrote:
Cause I'm only 90% confident in my reads, like, I know I'm on something like a 8-9 game streak of pushing mafia as day 1 lynch when I'm town, but that doesn't give me the right to be cocky or arrogant about it. Now go read the rest of the game, you're getting boring. wow...I didn't realize being 90% confident in your reads would still mean you doubt them so much that you'd want someone to be investigated instead of killed on the spot. So that must mean you're more then 90% confident that Drazerk and such are mafia? Since you asked for them to be shot? Please stop the ridiculousness already. You are active and smart enough to be properly interrogated, you're going to provide cases and you will show your true colors. Shitty people will probably just respond with oneliners and useless stuff, so they're better dealt with by vigilantes. You know this. And yet on day one you wanted to outright lynch me and to deny me the chance to "show my true colors" while coag gets a pass because he would "show his true colors" as the game went on.
yes, and if I had managed to convince enough people to lynch you, we'd have had great discussion about it on day 1, but you were never in enough danger for that to emerge. Are you being intentionally thick chaoser? I didn't want to lynch you with no discussion, I wanted people to read my arguments and agree with me. Maybe that'll happen on day 2.
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On November 19 2011 00:46 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:43 Palmar wrote:On November 19 2011 00:34 chaoser wrote:On November 19 2011 00:29 Palmar wrote:On November 19 2011 00:25 chaoser wrote:On November 19 2011 00:23 Palmar wrote:
Cause I'm only 90% confident in my reads, like, I know I'm on something like a 8-9 game streak of pushing mafia as day 1 lynch when I'm town, but that doesn't give me the right to be cocky or arrogant about it. Now go read the rest of the game, you're getting boring. wow...I didn't realize being 90% confident in your reads would still mean you doubt them so much that you'd want someone to be investigated instead of killed on the spot. So that must mean you're more then 90% confident that Drazerk and such are mafia? Since you asked for them to be shot? Please stop the ridiculousness already. You are active and smart enough to be properly interrogated, you're going to provide cases and you will show your true colors. Shitty people will probably just respond with oneliners and useless stuff, so they're better dealt with by vigilantes. You know this. And yet on day one you wanted to outright lynch me and to deny me the chance to "show my true colors" while coag gets a pass because he would "show his true colors" as the game went on. yes, and if I had managed to convince enough people to lynch you, we'd have had great discussion about it on day 1, but you were never in enough danger for that to emerge. Are you being intentionally thick chaoser? I didn't want to lynch you with no discussion, I wanted people to read my arguments and agree with me. Maybe that'll happen on day 2. So you're saying your wanting to outright lynch me is needed to create "great discussion" and thus it was a ploy to make me "show my true colors". Then what was with saying coag would "show his true colors" and giving him a pass? Shouldn't you have also wanted to outright lynch him and then that would in turn create "great discussion" and make him show his "true colors"?
Whatever, I'm going to ignore you for now.
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On November 19 2011 00:46 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:24 Palmar wrote:On November 19 2011 00:23 xsksc wrote:
Well Palmar, here's my thoughts.
I think the Kenpachi/Sinani lynches were silly. The only real scum read I have right now is on Drazerk. I'm not sure about Chaoser, I don't know his meta so it's harder for me to form an opinion on his town play. There are a couple of others I'm undecided on.
People I think are town :
wherebugsgo
palmar
risk.nuke
harbingerofdoom
lanaia
forumite
People I think are scum/I'm suspicious of :
prphlz
chaoser
drazerk
lemonwalrus
That's my current opinions, I have nothing solid to go on with chaoser/prphlz/lemon though.
Also, I'm really surprised I made it onto your vig list. I actually made a case on someone and stuck with it, I didn't join those ridiculous bandwagons that got two of our blues killed day 1.
well, to be fair, maybe it's just best if vigis hold their shots. I can relate to your list though I don't agree with all the reads (pending re-reading I'd say harbringer could be scum, and prplhz could be town). I´m ticked off by this. Of course prplhz COULD be Town, but I don´t think it´s very likely after some of his actions around the sinani lynch and earlier. Is there something specific in his play that makes you want to defend him, have you found a solid breadcrumb among his posts, do you have a strong hunch about him, or is it something else?
pending re-reading, as I already said.
Notice the list-formatted posts I'm doing, I have a couple of 180's on reads in them, those are the result of me re-reading the thread.
I just had a town gut on him early, remember that he was one of the people I did my initial alignment analysis on.
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On November 19 2011 00:53 risk.nuke wrote:
Palmar & Chaoser, what do you think of xsksc.
I already gave a little bit of insight into my thoughts on him in this post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12326737
His opening post isn't terrible, although it is very generic. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the discussion, but I have seen townies act like this before. I would say this gives him a few scum points, but not too much.
On November 15 2011 16:50 xsksc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 16:28 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
People should post opinions on 1) Tunneling people, 2) Use of the multilynch system and 3) The use of the multilynch system in regards to lurkers. 1) I'm assuming this means focusing solely on getting 1 person lynched? If it does, we obviously want to avoid that and keep an open mind. 2) I think the multi-lynch system looks really interesting, and could be a great help if we use it properly. If we have a couple of people who are posting suspiciously then we don't have to decide which one is scummier, because we're not limited to one lynch, we can judge them seperately and lynch them both (if it comes to that). 3) We shouldn't go overboard with the use of this on lurkers, maybe lynch 1 lurker a day with it, in addition to the people we think are scum.
His case against Drazerk is very weak, and I find it interesting that he can have such a strong scumread on someone who has done so little in the game. He is basically accusing Drazerk of posting one-liners which is well.. correct. Does that have anything to do with Drazerk's alignment? I'm not sure it does.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12312721
Yes Drazerk has acted like a complete idiot this game, but generally speaking it's more likely townies act like idiots.
He keeps the pressure on Drazerk, which is also interesting, and doesn't really give much thought on anything else happening in the game. Again, the tunnelvision on one thing and one thing only can be attributed to both newbie town and scum.
Forumite and I have both put on pressure on him, and he hasn't slipped in his defense yet, which gives him town points.
I guess the verdict on him would have to be: Slightly scummy, but not conclusive.
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EPT
