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DCLXVI, you said in this post that you thought now is not the time to be going for a multi lynch.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 15 2011 15:12 DCLXVI wrote:
Is it worth speculating what dangers there are in roleclaiming/lynching multiple people in a day? Both are warned against in the OP, but at some point (not now) I can see either becoming a legitimate strategy.
Unless we set a low bar for lurkers, I think that many players will qualify as lurkers and so far the general consensus is to lynch them all. I don't think we want to run the risk of "hazards in store for the town that lynches too many players in a particular day" while we don't need to. Instead of setting a certain number of posts/quality to pass/fail, we can determine the 1-2 least helpful/scummiest players and agree to vote them.
I don't see any merit in roleclaiming now, or even townie-claiming. If kenpachi and hiroruby would explain why they did so I would be ever so grateful. Personally I will not claim for now, but that is open to change. Both the warning in the OP and the lack of activity so far makes me hesitant to do so.
But in your next post you vote for two people, both kenpachi and kbibit.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2011 04:14 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:00 Sabin010 wrote:On November 16 2011 02:37 Zephirdd wrote:On November 16 2011 02:25 Tyrran wrote:On November 16 2011 01:59 Sabin010 wrote:
I agree about lynching liars, but if we're lynching lurkers because they're not active just doesn't seem to be a good way to go about this. If some one proposes we lynch a lurker, I'm not voting. So you are basically saying : " hey mafia, go lurk and stop posting and you'll be safe from me". I hope you understand how this is suspicious. Gotta agree with Tyrran here. Lurkers are bad for townies. That said, I don't want to just go on "lynch ALL the lurkers!" mode, but at least lynching one or two a day should make them stay in high alert. You know I never thought about it like that. did did you just not read the thread then? That option was brought up several times. @LSB I didn't know that kenpachi always townie claims day 1, it has been forever since I have played. It still does not allow him to post 2 other useless one liners and then leave. I just don't think that you should just write off kenpachi so quickly. Zephirrd confirmed early then came back later and actually posted stuff. Once I look that over and see if it is good material I can comment more on it, but at least he posted something. Kenpachi posted useless one liners in response to hiroruby (so there was stuff to talk about, he just decided not to) and then disappeared. I want to see more out out of Kenpachi than this. If he has played enough games for this behavior to be standard, then he should know that this doesn't help the town. ##Vote Kenpachiand now for a new topic: first post is fine, counts for nothing Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 12:59 Kibibit wrote:
/confirm
As far as lurkers go, I'm more or less in agreement on the lynching. what does this mean, you want to lynch inactive people - really? How many, how inactive, why do so? I won't accept you just "more or less agreeing" with people. That is not helpful and super scummy imo. Now after some time has passed and more topics are brought up to discuss: Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:44 Kibibit wrote:
I'm semi-okay with LAL, but there's always the possibility of a newbie getting an important decision and fucking up, so I'd prefer that we at least pressure any liars before we get our nooses out on them. Once again a wishy washy agreement with the general consensus, but not actually taking a side. This is also allowing mafia get away with lying if we used it. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:12 Kibibit wrote:On November 16 2011 00:07 GreYMisT wrote:
If you are town just don't lie. It only serves to cause chaos when your lie is found as truth. While I dont nessesarily agree with LAL in all circumstances, you have to have a damn good reason for lying if you don't want to get lynched. Yeah, but what I mean is that not everyone intends to lie. If it's blatant and obvious, I say lynch them immediately, I'm just saying not to overreact to any inconsistencies or the like. Once again you think that it is ok for townies to lie badly, we should cut them some slack? Why are you trying to allow scum to get away with occasional inconsistencies/small lies? All Kibibit has done is to sort of agree with everyone, make excuses for potential liars, and lurk (after he says we should probably lynch lurkers.) ##Vote Kibibit
How is this not a contradiction?
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On November 16 2011 05:55 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:43 Zephirdd wrote:PS, FoS is for sissies, real men just vote Do you know something we don't? Why are you encouraging people to vote like that, are you benefiting from it somehow? I didn't vote just yet because we were warned about consequences of just voting away, yet you are pretty comfortable of going on vote crazy, as if it was good for your somehow. Are you insinuating that I'm mafia and somehow mafia knows how the lynch mechanics work? (btw, as far as I can tell, no one besides Zona knows and the reason is so people can't abuse it). Show nested quote +I don't get it, was that supposed to be a contradiction? What made you go "Scum" on me? And why did you go "Scum" after you voted on me? What? Are you saying that somehow saying the word "scum" after voting you is suspicious? Your questions make no sense. Show nested quote +You're creating cases out of nowhere to encourage people to just throw votes. Again, it's like you don't even care about a simple mechanic of this game. There are hazards in store for the town that lynches too many players in a particular day. How am I encouraging people to throw away votes again? You can vote however you want, it's the lynch that is hazardous, as in too many lynches=bad for town. Voting for people ain't. I voted for two people, which has already been said is a decent number. You're trying to pull shit out your ass to defend yourself. I DID create cases out of nothing. That was to get some reactions and clearly yours is an overreaction; an incredibly scummy one at that. scummmmmmm
I'm implying that you know something we don't, but I also misinterpreted the rule. Yes, it's about massive lynches, not massive votes and you are right about that. It just tipped me off that someone would be so aggressive this early, especially when there is a rule that mentions that.
However, you are encouraging votes with "FoS is for pussies", when "FoS" is just a method of saying *I have an eye on you* but still stay back. I suppose the fact that you can unvote as much as you can vote kinda makes "FoS" pointless however, as pointless as voting out of no reason. Any half decent townie would be tipped off by your aggression and investigate further into it; for me, it looks just like you are just looking for a tunneling target.
What is suspicious about the word "scum" is that you voted against me(even unvoting DCL), THEN you went through my filters to look for something that mildly looked like the scrap of a contradiction, and then you went on calling me Scum. Why not just go on "Scummmmmmmmm" mode right off the bat?
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You guys still have yet to figure out that anything kenpachi says should be ignored.
If in doubt vote for Kenpachi
But dont run the town directive into the ground trying to figure out why he does what he does.
Just kill him If we have nothing solid to go on.
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@sabin010
I don't understand how you "have played many live games" but still are "not sure of all the terms" such as the most basic ones - scum/mob/mafia. Care to explain that rather than just saying that implying two opposites is not lying. Or at least post an opinion in detail on something in your own words? I don't accept your opinion that we should not lynch lurkers. If we don't keep that as a policy, what will motivate bored townies to differentiate themselves from lurking mafia? We may lynch town players when lynching lurkers, but we cannot read players who don't post, so we have to assume they are mafia. Mafia won't shoot lurkers they don't suspect are blue, so they aren't "warm bodies" to protect us as you quoted lemonwalrus.
For lying and bad strategy:
##Vote Sabin010
@chaoser
FOS is for sissies. vote everyone! And now I'm winning
@ greymist
Yeah, I did not word the first post as I meant it to read. I was talking about mass lynches, not multi lynches, -like to the point of where the OP warned us against. If you read my later posts I talk about lynching around 1-2 players a day, and then I place votes on two people. Still, since not everyone will vote for the same people I do, me voting for two people will not result in 2 people getting lynched.
@kibibit
I don't think that townies playing quietly will win the game. If everyone just sits back and agrees with each other it is very easy for a few loud players to influence the game, and should those be capable mafia players the game is lost. However if everyone speaks up it is easier for other townies to understand each other and mafia don't have an easy time guiding the vote.
The problem with sort of agreeing with everyone is that mafia members can easily do this and get away with not posting opinions on anything. They can just mimic pro town sentiments, but not actually take a stand on anything making them harder to pin down and logic trap. Therefore any player that I see just 'sort of agreeing' with people I find very suspicious as that is a great way for mafia to look somewhat active and appear positive to the other players. I mean, would you vote for someone who is 'somewhat agreeing' with you?
I'm just throwing out ideas on suspicious players as us talking about LAL and lurkers over and over again isn't getting us anywhere, we need to start getting people's opinions on other matters so we can get reads on them, you happen to be one of them.
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FoS sabin010 for lying.
I think we've discussed the LaL and lurkers stuff enough. What topics of conversation are usually used day 1 to hunt scum with?
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I don't really know about Sabin010 it is very unfortunate that he said that but on the other hand he doesn't support lurkers lynches and he supports liar lynches which I think wouldn't be a scum's stance. It is pretty simple, if we start lynching lurkers then scum will start talking and we will just be lynching into busy townies most likely.
About lurkers, we have a seemingly unlimited number of lynches at our disposal and everybody has to post every 24 hours as it says in the OP. If we don't lynch any lurkers day1 we can still lynch them day2 and by that point we'll have like 6-7 posts from everybody. If they're all useless one liners, then lets go ahead and kill a few of them but there's no reason to lynch them prematurely when we can just postpone it and lynch them later. Later we will have more material and the lynch will not be based solely on their lurking but also on their being useless for a long period of time.
For people who did not notice it the OP says that you must post in this thread every 24 hours
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@sabin010: First you start lying about your experience (covering up for a scumslip?) and then you try to divert the discussion by quoting Lemonwalrus' post. It sure looks like you are trying to take cover in another discussion..
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LSB has been offline for a while, probably sleep and real life. I still don´t like to see someone trying to direct town policy be gone for 15 hours.
I´m not following the case on Sabin010, is it only the confusion about him playing a lot IRL but none here, or something more?
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:03 sinani206 wrote:
wtf
##Vote: chaoser
Your not going to lurk the first day, come out of no where and then vote chaoser without reason.
FoS sinani206
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On November 16 2011 04:48 Hiroruby wrote:
the # of Lynches I think we should never do more than two a day, unless we know for a fact we're are killing scum. I.E. 3 types of lynches I would be in favor of, in this order.
2x suspected scum
Suspected Scum + lurker
2x lurker if we have no solid suspects.
No. This is not only useless (too easy for scum to dodge), but it will be hard to regulate anyway.
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On November 16 2011 09:06 Drazerk wrote:Your not going to lurk the first day, come out of no where and then vote chaoser without reason. FoS sinani206
His posts this game are nothing like what I've seem out of him before and even if I hadn't played with him before, the posts are straight up scummy.
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On November 16 2011 09:07 sinani206 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:06 Drazerk wrote:On November 16 2011 09:03 sinani206 wrote:
wtf
##Vote: chaoser Your not going to lurk the first day, come out of no where and then vote chaoser without reason. FoS sinani206 His posts this game are nothing like what I've seem out of him before and even if I hadn't played with him before, the posts are straight up scummy.
1) Deal with my posts being different. This use of "your posts are different" meta is so stupid I'd gladly post completely differently every single game to kill it. Can't tell if you're mafia or stupid >_>
Also while the manner in which I post is different, the reasoning behind my posts isn't, (XXXIX)
2) How are my posts "straight up scummy?"
##Vote: Sinani206
I'm so happy I get to vote multiple people
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This thread seems to be getting along pretty well!
Apologies for the inactivity on my part, I've been busy. However, I have a proposal.
We lynch at least two people today, preferably three. However, until the last 24-36 hours of the day only focus on one person at a time. This will help us become organized and use our number advantage. If one person is pushing multiple different wagons at once we get chaos. Chaos is not good. We need productive, organized discussion, and I think this is best served by everyone focusing on a single target until we have enough information and cases in the thread to begin consolidating on a final count of 2-3 targets.
On to asking questions/scumhunting!
On November 15 2011 17:36 prplhz wrote:
Policy lynching is stupid stupid stupid and if we policy lynch ANYTHING it will ONLY help mafia. The day is 72 hours long and you have to post one every 24 hours so lurking should be somewhat dealt with that way. If we lynch lurky people they HAVE to be scummy too, you don't just lynch blindly into inactivity.
Tunneling can be pretty powerful, it is a tool to get a read it should just be used right. Town shouldn't let itself get sidetracked if player A decides that they want to tunnel player B, look at what is happening. Don't just say "lole~(tm) u r tunnl means u r scum". If you want to lynch either a lurker or a liar you ALWAYS need to post analysis of why they are scummy too.
I like what Cyber_Cheese said, Hiroruby has a lot of focus on how to play as mafia. Also, he supports a strict lynch all lurkers policy which, as I have already said, is extremely pro-mafia for painfully obvious reasons.
The multi-lynch system should be used for lynching multiple scum.
##Vote Hiroruby
Sorry prpl, I don't see why a lynch lurker policy is "extremely pro-mafia for painfully obvious reasons." Certainly lynch-all-lurkers is not as effective as lynch all liars, but using the multi-lynch system to threaten lurking players is a good way to separate the town lurkers from the scum. Townies will make an active effort to contribute when they realize that they are being deadweight. Scum will not.
For the most part, lurkers are incredibly difficult to read too. Players like Kenpachi and sinani could be of either alignment in any game they play in, and we can barely ever tell. In the end if half the scum left are lurkers we're basically just blindly voting into the pool and crossing our fingers for a scum lynch. If we get rid of the lurkers earlier, we don't have this problem.
Look at PYP:I. I know you were scum there, but in that game the biggest lurking scum all lived the longest, despite taking huge suspicions throughout the game. The good thing there was that there were so many scum that there was never a shortage of active scum, but in this game we don't have that many scum. There's only a handful, so if two or three of them lurk and we don't focus on lurkers we'll have some big problems in a couple of days.
On November 15 2011 17:46 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 17:43 LSB wrote:On November 15 2011 17:36 prplhz wrote:
Policy lynching is stupid stupid stupid and if we policy lynch ANYTHING it will ONLY help mafia. The day is 72 hours long and you have to post one every 24 hours so lurking should be somewhat dealt with that way. If we lynch lurky people they HAVE to be scummy too, you don't just lynch blindly into inactivity.
Tunneling can be pretty powerful, it is a tool to get a read it should just be used right. Town shouldn't let itself get sidetracked if player A decides that they want to tunnel player B, look at what is happening. Don't just say "lole~(tm) u r tunnl means u r scum". If you want to lynch either a lurker or a liar you ALWAYS need to post analysis of why they are scummy too.
I like what Cyber_Cheese said, Hiroruby has a lot of focus on how to play as mafia. Also, he supports a strict lynch all lurkers policy which, as I have already said, is extremely pro-mafia for painfully obvious reasons.
The multi-lynch system should be used for lynching multiple scum.
##Vote Hiroruby Why do you disagree with Lynch all Liars? I think town shouldn't lie and we should discourage that. Look no further than Team Melee Mini Mafia where the esteemed GMarshal provided a prime example of why a strict lynch-all-liars policy isn't always the greatest as it would have lost town that game. If you are town: do not lie under any circumstances. If you are town and somebody else lies: don't just lynch them because of that alone, even though we have a seemingly unlimited number of lynches at our disposal.
Stop using TMMM as a reason why lynch all liars is bad.
Anyone who is suggesting that in this game is dead wrong. We lynch all liars. Period. If you lie, you die. The reason? Lying is incredibly unlikely to help town.
GM did not help town by lying. Had he not lied in TMMM there is a strong chance that situation wouldn't have occurred and the lynch would've proceeded more easily because of the PC check. Town actually chose the wrong option. Just because they won, doesn't make the decision correct.
With that said, as I was reading the thread I was suspicious of this guy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=50717
because of how he reacted to the discussion. None of the opinions are concrete and he's just sliding by without saying anything. His posts are empty.
I know you're new, man, but if you're town you can't do this. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but you need to begin contributing and posting more. I expect to see you build a case on someone and vote them, so we know your line of thought. Please provide something useful.
Also, we find scum by finding inconsistencies and agenda. If people say things that have mafia motivation, they need to die. LAL is one way we find and punish inconsistencies. It's actually a very effective deterrent of dumb play, and I would argue that it's far more useful in decreasing town lynches than actually finding scum, but often times that's exactly what we need to do; limiting the number of town lynched and maximizing the number of scum lynched is one and the same.
My focus for the day:
Chaoser
filter link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=41788&user=41788
Chaoser right now is all over the place. He is not fostering positive discussion. He just OMGUSed sinani, he is pushing three different people right now, and he is using very little reasoning for all of those votes.
Chaoser if you are town, you need to slow down and focus on one person so that your posts are more coherent and readable, or you need to provide more information about your vote targets. Right now you're being incredibly distracting, particularly as people have to keep asking you why you're voting the people you are voting. This OMGUS on sinani, for example:
On November 16 2011 09:15 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:07 sinani206 wrote:On November 16 2011 09:06 Drazerk wrote:On November 16 2011 09:03 sinani206 wrote:
wtf
##Vote: chaoser Your not going to lurk the first day, come out of no where and then vote chaoser without reason. FoS sinani206 His posts this game are nothing like what I've seem out of him before and even if I hadn't played with him before, the posts are straight up scummy. 1) Deal with my posts being different. This use of "your posts are different" meta is so stupid I'd gladly post completely differently every single game to kill it. Can't tell if you're mafia or stupid >_> Also while the manner in which I post is different, the reasoning behind my posts isn't, (XXXIX) 2) How are my posts "straight up scummy?" ##Vote: Sinani206I'm so happy I get to vote multiple people
If you can't tell if he's scum or dumb, why did you vote him? It makes no sense using your very own logic. If you can't tell someone's alignment, why would you vote them?
Then, your attacks on Zephirrd are really bad too. He's a new player, and most of what he's saying makes sense. That's better than a lot of other new players. You even admit to making cases "out of nothing" as an attempt to create reactions from other players. That's not a good way to play town and you know it. You should be posting a case on someone after you have subtly pushed them for a while, instead of voting them the instant you think they've said something scummy. That's not reliable.
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oh duh forgot the most important part:
##vote chaoser
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##Vote: chaoser
missing colon -_-
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You even admit to making cases "out of nothing" as an attempt to create reactions from other players. That's not a good way to play town and you know it.
Lol, I built my reputation off of doing exactly this...I didn't realize this was "not a good way to play town"
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Please elaborate how making cases out of nothing does anything to pressure scum?
As soon as you make a baseless case on a scummy or dummy townie they can begin fabricating analysis. In fact, you could lead the whole thread to believe your target is scum when there is no real reason for them to be scum in the first place.
I think we should approach this game more carefully. We have multiple lynches but we will be hurting ourselves if we end up lynching multiple townies instead of scum.
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AKA, I did that to great effect in XXXIX <3
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Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it.
##Vote: Kenpachi
##Vote: Nisani201
And this
On November 16 2011 05:13 Drazerk wrote:##Vote: Sabin010
Bad vibes also this - Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 00:22 Sabin010 wrote:
I have seen to many games where we lose our cop or doc first day and end up wasting our time as the mob picks us off. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:06 Sabin010 wrote:
This is my first game and im not sure of all the terms. I thought scum, mob, and mafia are the same.
Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on.
You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other.
If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day.
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EPT
