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FFS we can't tell shit from Ace, he could be trolling us for all we know. A townie wouldn't want themselves lynched because to themselves they are confirmed and a mafia wouldn't want themselves lynched either for self preservation.
Ace is Ace, if we leave him alive till tomorrow I don't think it's going to be a huge deal.
What's more important right now is that Jackal roleclaimed "medic" (wtf which medic actually roleclaims?) and he's been confirmed by iGrok to be lying about how his role works.
If he really did have such an ability he certainly wouldn't claim it, because he's a better asset to town when mafia doesn't know what he can do. Otherwise they'd just shoot his ass right away. Jackal also really hasn't contributed anything, just look at his posts.
I say we lynch him and bum.
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The difference is that redFF was never modconfirmed to be lying. Jackal's claim is that he can block roleblocks, but iGrok straight up said that's not possible.
Plus we lynched red anyway and the only way he's getting revived is if our HP is on crack and hasn't been paying attention to the thread (I sincerely hope that's not you kenpachi)
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He said he CAN block roleblocks, he didn't say he actually did. Filter him and find it, I'm on my phone otherwise I'd quote it myself
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Actually one thing to think about is this:
If bum is the minion and Jackal was dead yesterday, AND we killed the inhibitor ON yesterday, this means bum became necro (minion becomes necro? It makes sense from the name, like necromancer's minion or whatever). So bum and jackal are both necros right now and they can res two people at once.
Let's say they res ON and redFF. That creates both WIFOM and adds 2 KP to 1 KP = mafia is trying to end the game by tomorrow.
If this is true we have no choice but to lynch both Jackal and bum today.
Please all of you think about this carefully
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On September 06 2011 23:41 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 22:34 sandroba wrote:
@jackal we know that priest is still alive (and not me because I've been roleblocked) based on the order the effects go through. Protect one wbg/chaos/kenpachi tonight, as one of those ought to be priest.
I'm a little puzzled about your claim and iGrok's flow chart of order of effects. How is a protection role even possible if other effects come after killing effects? huh? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11254029It's not in other effects. Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects. It's a blocking effect. I block all evil doers from visiting a person during that day cycle. If I have chosen a person to protect and scum try to hit them or role block them they are blocked. Scum cannot target a person I am protecting. I have already picked the person I am protecting. I will in all likelihood continue to protect this person as long as I am still alive. No I'm not telling you who it is.
Found it
Hit OR role block he says. igrok's last post says that's not possible.
Ace are you being purposely thick?
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On September 05 2011 09:42 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 05 2011 09:37 Jackal58 wrote:On September 05 2011 09:31 sinani206 wrote:OK, this is the deal. I am a Coroner. redFF was my Apprentice. When I was lynched Day 1, I had not used either of my checks (note: the role pm did not say there was a limit to checks per day) So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. Also, assuming we have a 1/1/1 scum team of Minion, Necromancer and Inhibitor, and that we only have one priest, one of the people revived today besides me has a power (one who must have been killed by the minion on Day 1) and the third person is a Zombie. Since we know it was a Minion shot that killed the second revival, and because Mafia had only 2 regular KP on Day 1, the Daywalker has not yet used his shot. If you feel confident, use your shot today, on Ace or bum. If not, we can just lynch both of them and win either way. EZ PZ. I agree with all of this. This leaves Drazerk as a Zombie. I'd say Daywalker shoot him, we lynch Bum and Ace. If we are wrong on one of them we should still destroy scum KP. Why isn't it possible that you're the zombie? Or even sinani? Because I was told when I died I would be ressed
This also contradicts the OP.
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I mean, no doubt he was a minion shot, but how the hell would he KNOW he was shot by the minion? The OP says no players are told how they are resurrected, I can't believe this claim based on what Jackal is insinuating.
From what it says in the OP I'd suppose that revived players are informed at the end of the daycycle that they've been revived, and upon their death that they MAY be revived. Jackal is saying he pretty much knew he would be revived from the PM he got about his death.
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I'm pretty sure if we ask iGrok we'll get the same explanation I just provided, or a repetition of the OP.
None of this makes sense in the context of you being a medic. No town aligned player would out themselves like that, not a half decent one anyway.
The ONLY explanation is that you claimed to draw the mafia hit tonight but I somehow doubt that.
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And the fact that he said he knew how he was going to get ressed?
You can't seriously believe iGrok could make TWO glaring mistakes like that, could you?
Also I really don't trust your motivations when you're willing to get yourself lynched and are rather unwilling to provide opinions on this, Ace. Third party alignment is probably not likely in this setup but you really aren't doing much beneficial for town
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On September 07 2011 05:25 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if we ask iGrok we'll get the same explanation I just provided, or a repetition of the OP.
None of this makes sense in the context of you being a medic. No town aligned player would out themselves like that, not a half decent one anyway.
The ONLY explanation is that you claimed to draw the mafia hit tonight but I somehow doubt that. Well maybe we're not all as freaking good as you are. I was hoping to shed some light on who was the Zombie. It was painfully obvious Sinani was ressed by the HP. I knew, whether through mistake or not, that the Minion hit me. That left Drazork as the Zombie. After seeing the shit fest you and Sandroba have kicked up over Ace, in hindsight yes, I should have kept my mouth shut. How the hell was I to know you guys were going to start a shit storm and ignore the player that is providing scum with .5 kp. Don't you dare pull that you're not very good bullshit on me. As soon as I ressed scum knew I was blue. As soon as I was ressed I knew I had an enormous target on me. Or aren't you bright enough to see that.
LOL nice emotional appeal mate
I can't take you seriously when your contradictions line up with a defense post that isn't reasoned or thought out, it's full of emotional personal attacks. That's a mafia tactic.
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On September 07 2011 05:34 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:33 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 07 2011 05:25 Jackal58 wrote:On September 07 2011 05:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if we ask iGrok we'll get the same explanation I just provided, or a repetition of the OP.
None of this makes sense in the context of you being a medic. No town aligned player would out themselves like that, not a half decent one anyway.
The ONLY explanation is that you claimed to draw the mafia hit tonight but I somehow doubt that. Well maybe we're not all as freaking good as you are. I was hoping to shed some light on who was the Zombie. It was painfully obvious Sinani was ressed by the HP. I knew, whether through mistake or not, that the Minion hit me. That left Drazork as the Zombie. After seeing the shit fest you and Sandroba have kicked up over Ace, in hindsight yes, I should have kept my mouth shut. How the hell was I to know you guys were going to start a shit storm and ignore the player that is providing scum with .5 kp. Don't you dare pull that you're not very good bullshit on me. As soon as I ressed scum knew I was blue. As soon as I was ressed I knew I had an enormous target on me. Or aren't you bright enough to see that. LOL nice emotional appeal mate I can't take you seriously when your contradictions line up with a defense post that isn't reasoned or thought out, it's full of emotional personal attacks. That's a mafia tactic. No that's my response to somebody calling me a dumbass.
Yes, because clearly someone called you a dumbass.
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On September 05 2011 09:55 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:50 sandroba wrote:
Also we should not lynch zombie today. We lynch bum who is 100% scum and ace who is 95% scum. That will keep kp neatly at one even if the game is not over somehow, so killing off ressed players is a waste today. I agree. Drazerk is not lynch bait. Anybody that votes for him is scum or dumb. He is a good day vig shot though. Nothing personal Drazerk but reading the thread while I was dead leads me to the conclusion that sinani was ressed and you are reanimated.
BTW Jackal just contradicted himself wrt to the zombie.
If I'm reading this (and his most recent post) correctly he's saying me and sandroba have started a shitstorm over Ace while completely ignoring the 0.5 KP zombie res that is Drazerk.
Well, if you thought that was a problem before why would you say that anyone who votes Drazerk would either be scum or dumb?
Either we're ignoring Drazerk because we're scumbuddies or we're ignoring Drazerk because we know there are mafia left to lynch. Make up your mind man
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On September 07 2011 05:47 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 07 2011 05:34 Jackal58 wrote:On September 07 2011 05:33 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 07 2011 05:25 Jackal58 wrote:On September 07 2011 05:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if we ask iGrok we'll get the same explanation I just provided, or a repetition of the OP.
None of this makes sense in the context of you being a medic. No town aligned player would out themselves like that, not a half decent one anyway.
The ONLY explanation is that you claimed to draw the mafia hit tonight but I somehow doubt that. Well maybe we're not all as freaking good as you are. I was hoping to shed some light on who was the Zombie. It was painfully obvious Sinani was ressed by the HP. I knew, whether through mistake or not, that the Minion hit me. That left Drazork as the Zombie. After seeing the shit fest you and Sandroba have kicked up over Ace, in hindsight yes, I should have kept my mouth shut. How the hell was I to know you guys were going to start a shit storm and ignore the player that is providing scum with .5 kp. Don't you dare pull that you're not very good bullshit on me. As soon as I ressed scum knew I was blue. As soon as I was ressed I knew I had an enormous target on me. Or aren't you bright enough to see that. LOL nice emotional appeal mate I can't take you seriously when your contradictions line up with a defense post that isn't reasoned or thought out, it's full of emotional personal attacks. That's a mafia tactic. No that's my response to somebody calling me a dumbass. Yes, because clearly someone called you a dumbass. Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm pretty sure if we ask iGrok we'll get the same explanation I just provided, or a repetition of the OP.
None of this makes sense in the context of you being a medic. No town aligned player would out themselves like that, not a half decent one anyway.
The ONLY explanation is that you claimed to draw the mafia hit tonight but I somehow doubt that. Half your posts in this game are condescending to the person you disagree with. I suck as town because I claimed? I suck as town because I wanted town to know who the Zombie was? I suck as town because scum know I'm blue? I suck as town because Sandroba asked me to claim since he understood that scum knows I'm blue? I suck as town because I know how you derps act if somebody doesn't comply with your wishes? I suck as town because iGrok either accidentally or intentionally told me I would be resurrected? Stick it in you ear Bugs.
No, actually this is precisely the opposite of what I'm saying.
I consider you a good player. I think a good player, when aligned with town, would NEVER claim medic, flip or no flip. The only exception is a fake claim in orderto draw the mafia hit, and I find this extremely unlikely because of the zeal with which you protect your claim and yourself.
The only other solution to that is that you're mafia.
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I should clarify, the zeal with which you protect your claim despite it being contradictory (and these two contradictions being confirmed in the OP and by a mod clarification)
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Okay, it's difficult for me to quote shit on this phone so I'll be back in like 30 minutes when I have computer access.
Town needs to weigh in on this, we have only 3 hours to establish this. If I'm blatantly wrong about anything please point it out. (I'm looking at you, sandroba, chaos, jcarl, sinani, drazerk, anyone else who wishes to provide opinions)
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On September 07 2011 05:54 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 05:52 wherebugsgo wrote:
I should clarify, the zeal with which you protect your claim despite it being contradictory (and these two contradictions being confirmed in the OP and by a mod clarification) Show me the mod clarification.
Here:
On September 07 2011 02:07 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 22:40 sandroba wrote:
Also since you prevent actions, you should have to act even before roleblocker.
iGrok, can you clarify if it's possible for something to act before roleblocking effects? Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects.
No effects on the same tier can affect each other. So, you cannot block a block. Killing a Vig does not prevent his kill. Etc. unless otherwise specified.
Mod clarification in red.
On September 06 2011 23:41 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 22:34 sandroba wrote:
@jackal we know that priest is still alive (and not me because I've been roleblocked) based on the order the effects go through. Protect one wbg/chaos/kenpachi tonight, as one of those ought to be priest.
I'm a little puzzled about your claim and iGrok's flow chart of order of effects. How is a protection role even possible if other effects come after killing effects? huh? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11254029It's not in other effects. Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects. It's a blocking effect. I block all evil doers from visiting a person during that day cycle. If I have chosen a person to protect and scum try to hit them or role block them they are blocked. Scum cannot target a person I am protecting. I have already picked the person I am protecting. I will in all likelihood continue to protect this person as long as I am still alive. No I'm not telling you who it is.
bolded red=contradicts mod clarification
bold=self contradiction plus rule regarding death contradiction. You say you're not going to tell us who you're protecting but then you claim you're protecting ON (apparently from being ressed.)
On September 07 2011 05:30 Jackal58 wrote:
Oh and the person I've targeted from evildoers today is ON.
You fucking figure it out.
The blatant contradiction is that you told us you wouldn't say who you're targetting.
Well, now that you've said it you've thrown a bunch of WIFOM into the mix.
Then, I think a little less obvious self contradiction is this:
You said that you'd be "protecting" this person for the rest of the time you're alive. This doesn't make sense in the context of the target you chose to reveal because, if you wanted to prevent mafia from ressing ON then you would only have to "protect" him once.
So, in that case, why would you say that you would be protecting the same person the rest of the time you are alive?
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On September 07 2011 07:38 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 06:44 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 07 2011 05:54 Jackal58 wrote:On September 07 2011 05:52 wherebugsgo wrote:
I should clarify, the zeal with which you protect your claim despite it being contradictory (and these two contradictions being confirmed in the OP and by a mod clarification) Show me the mod clarification. Here: On September 07 2011 02:07 iGrok wrote:On September 06 2011 22:40 sandroba wrote:
Also since you prevent actions, you should have to act even before roleblocker.
iGrok, can you clarify if it's possible for something to act before roleblocking effects? Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects.
No effects on the same tier can affect each other. So, you cannot block a block. Killing a Vig does not prevent his kill. Etc. unless otherwise specified. Mod clarification in red. On September 06 2011 23:41 Jackal58 wrote:On September 06 2011 22:34 sandroba wrote:
@jackal we know that priest is still alive (and not me because I've been roleblocked) based on the order the effects go through. Protect one wbg/chaos/kenpachi tonight, as one of those ought to be priest.
I'm a little puzzled about your claim and iGrok's flow chart of order of effects. How is a protection role even possible if other effects come after killing effects? huh? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11254029It's not in other effects. Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects. It's a blocking effect. I block all evil doers from visiting a person during that day cycle. If I have chosen a person to protect and scum try to hit them or role block them they are blocked. Scum cannot target a person I am protecting. I have already picked the person I am protecting. I will in all likelihood continue to protect this person as long as I am still alive. No I'm not telling you who it is. bolded red=contradicts mod clarification bold=self contradiction plus rule regarding death contradiction. You say you're not going to tell us who you're protecting but then you claim you're protecting ON (apparently from being ressed.) On September 07 2011 05:30 Jackal58 wrote:
Oh and the person I've targeted from evildoers today is ON.
You fucking figure it out. The blatant contradiction is that you told us you wouldn't say who you're targetting. Well, now that you've said it you've thrown a bunch of WIFOM into the mix. Then, I think a little less obvious self contradiction is this: You said that you'd be "protecting" this person for the rest of the time you're alive. This doesn't make sense in the context of the target you chose to reveal because, if you wanted to prevent mafia from ressing ON then you would only have to "protect" him once. So, in that case, why would you say that you would be protecting the same person the rest of the time you are alive? Clarified your clarification I just got home from work. I have about 10 minutes before I leave for bowling. I received a PM telling me my role is apparently imba and I can only visit the living. It originally said all players that may be remaining in the game.
I don't really know what to make of this part
This could mean almost anything at this point, but I guess it means ON is off limits.
On September 07 2011 07:38 Jackal58 wrote:
And yes you pissed me off. So I said what I was doing. You want me to wait til there is 5 minutes left to tell you like Bum did? You'd call me scum for that too.
I would call you scum for that, because telling us who you're targetting, regardless of when you do it, is in direct contradiction to what you said earlier about not revealing your target.
Wishy washiness is scummy.
On September 07 2011 07:38 Jackal58 wrote:
The more I thought about it on my ride home the more it seemed to me that you are the remaining scum. The only people I ever see work so hard to get a person with a protection role lynched is scum.
Your arguments against my role are the same arguments you call Ace "noob" repeatedly for using. You can't have it both ways.
Odds are I'll be dead shortly. You don't want to waste a shot on me if you can get me lynched. And ya it's easy to say you'll lynch me tomorrow if the games not over because you know the game won't be over either. I hate making an OMGUS but dude you're scum.
If you're truly town then you need to stop accusing me based on your emotions and actually go back and read my posts.
I keep calling Ace a noob because I was responding to his trolling with trolling of my own. I thought that was the only effective way to get any sort of information out of him. Not to mention, I'm not the only one trolling (or insulting Ace, specifically)
Finally, no, actually, they're not the same arguments I use for demeaning Ace. RedFF actually never made a blatant mod-confirmed contradiction. He made a really bad claim (which is why I said I was bothered by the multiple claims that just seem fishy) and I even acknowledged that I found red's claim really scummy at first.
Then, when I actually went back and analyzed the possible reasons a mafia would claim like that, I found none. His behavior doesn't suggest a mafia agenda, and there are no clear contradictions to the OP. He just wasn't clear about his role. Ace has focused on the "one corpse a day" thing based on semantics when he can't actually establish a proper contradiction. Nowhere in the OP does it say that a coroner can only use one per day, and iGrok has not said that in any clarification of the rules either.
He HAS, however, said that blocking effects cannot affect other blocking effects.
On September 07 2011 07:38 Jackal58 wrote:
And btw Ace isn't scum. He doesn't want to get lynched. He wants scum to shoot him. I'd rather he stayed alive for a while.
I said this exact same thing just a few posts ago.
On September 07 2011 07:38 Jackal58 wrote:
Oh and if you do want to lynch me don't be last to vote for me because you will die. I'm compelled to tell you that after I have received a vote. I am the Guardian Angel.
I didn't write my role. I just got stuck with it.
We'll ultimately find out at the end of the game, but I'm not comfortable in a no flip setup with leaving someone alive who has directly contradicted himself, the OP, and a mod's clarification, for a total of 3 things that don't make sense in the context of the things that have happened in this game.
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Also, you avoided my question:
You said that you'd be "protecting" this person for the rest of the time you're alive. This doesn't make sense in the context of the target you chose to reveal because, if you wanted to prevent mafia from ressing ON then you would only have to "protect" him once.
So, in that case, why would you say that you would be protecting the same person the rest of the time you are alive?
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On September 07 2011 08:15 chaos13 wrote:
WBG, your main argument about Jackal saying he can block blocks reminds me a lot of Ace's argument about the coroner only being able to check one person per day. I doubt iGrok would have gone through the trouble of making it expressly clear that Jackal could not roleblock roleblocks. If you want to disbelieve his claim, find another reason for it.
Okay, let me see if I can make this a little bit more clear.
First, the similarities between my argument and Ace's:
a. Ace claimed that redFF's coroner apprentice claim contradicts what's in the OP regarding the coroner.
b. I claimed that Jackal's resurrection claim contradicts what's in the OP regarding what people know about being resurrected.
That's pretty much where the similarities end. You yourself, chaos, pointed out that there's a discrepancy with what Jackal said about his revival PM and what appears in the OP.
If you want to argue that my main argument sounds like Ace's then you have to compare my argument about Jackal's resurrection PM to redFF's coroner claim.
So, let's do that.
1. redFF's coroner claim shows no direct contradiction with the information in the OP. Ace's argument hinges on the "one check per day" when no such wording exists in the OP. If, hypothetically, redFF claimed HP and said he resurrected two people (sinani and Drazerk, let's say) and can't resurrect anymore because he has no resses left, THEN redFF's claim would have contradicted the OP because the role text for HP specifically states only one res per day, UNLIKE the coroner role which uses different wording.
This, coupled with red's behavior leads to my conclusion that red had no malicious intent with the way that he role claimed. The only possible contradiction in redFF's claim is with respect to his "two claims a day" thing, which also is not a direct contradiction.
Finally, for assurance, sinani's argument supported redFF's claim. Ace argues that they had knowledge of each others' existence but he never actually establishes this, he just implies it. Thus, I can't accept Ace's argument, it's not actually logically sound. It's an implication based upon two false assumptions.
2. On the other hand, my accusation of Jackal hinges upon something you yourself pointed out: no one is told how a player has been revived, and dead players are not told they have been revived until the end of the 48 hours.
On September 05 2011 09:20 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:19 wherebugsgo wrote:
LOL. What's weird is that there were 3 revivals.
Do you just get informed you were revived, or what? Not green but I'll answer it anyways.
Revived Players are pm'd that they have been revived and may post again. They are not told how they were revived (Resurrection/Re-animation).
I mean, we can clarify this with iGrok if you so desire; I'll put my question to him at the end of the post.
In fact, we could have Drazerk and Sinani answer this for us too, since they were both revived as well!
Lastly, again, this is only 1/3 of my accusation, and it is the only thing that can be directly compared with Ace's argument against redFF and sinani.
The 2/3 of my argument that are not comparable with Ace's argument:
Jackal's self contradiction with respect to revealing who he is targetting, and how long he'll be targetting that player. (think about it, if his intention was to block resses on ON then he would never add the part about permanently keeping his action there. One block and ON can never be revived again, then Jackal is free to change his target)
The contradiction between Jackal's roleclaim and iGrok stating that blocking effects cannot affect other blocking effects.
I would believe the assertion about iGrok making a mistake if and only if it was the only occasion that such a coincidence would have relevance. However, Jackal's defense requires that this happen not once but twice. Lastly, his behavior (unlike redFF) is suggestive of a mafia agenda.
@Sinani, Drazerk: were you told that you were going to be revived in a manner that is consistent with what is shown in the OP?
@ iGrok
Are dead players who are revived, by any means including priest resurrection, necromancer reanimation, minion resurrection, or other ways not specified, messaged that they will be revived at the end of the 48 hour period following their death or as soon as it is apparent that they will be revived (i.e. you have received an action from the minion/necro/priest)?
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Also day ends in 15 minutes so I'm planning on switching my vote over to bum if it's apparent this Jackal lynch won't happen today.
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EPT
