TL Mafia XLIV - Page 120

On September 08 2011 13:39 wherebugsgo wrote:


wat

On September 08 2011 13:55 bumatlarge wrote:


Thought I told you? The vain vote you picked up on was meant to be for when vain popped green. Chaoser could bus the vote onto me by explaining that vain had been framed and it was apparent in my posting. You jumped on it, so I was kinda happy to get lynched and town was too comfortable to call chaoser scum, along with his good play, until the endgame. All those silly connections got you in the end, when it was really just mig and myself going down for the team.

Congrats us and good work team! Curu could have probably won it by himself.

Also part of my mistake was not making it clear that I felt chaoser was suspicious and that he was linked to you; it seemed weird that you would frame vain on the same night he supposedly checked him. I was going to make it very explicit that, if chaoser lived, he would be mafia

On August 24 2011 07:47 Palmar wrote:


I form opinions, and I then try to objectively read the thread after that, but it's hard. I'm not afraid of being wrong, and I've quite often been right. Maybe this is the game where I'm wrong on all accounts, but I expect others to be able to pick that up.

Also, why do you basically declare me town? Do you know my alignment?

On September 08 2011 14:49 chaoser wrote:
.

Ok I didn't understand this logic...this is how a framer is SUPPOSE to work, they're hoping for a DT check on the person they framed. How is that weird?

On September 08 2011 14:53 Palmar wrote:
Curu scumslipped like a boss and no one noticed but me, thankfully mafia had Kurumi on their side. I guess I have been spoiled by playing with good town players who bother to work for their victory instead of expecting to be carried, and thus I thought it didn't matter how I acted, because people would most certainly be able to tell the difference anyway.

This was not the case during this game, people were stuck with their heads up their asses and did not want to read objectively, and thus it's my own failure not to adapt my play to the bad logic that worked with this town.

Here is the list I wrote on day 2, remember that later during the day foolishness and dropbear got "confirmed"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aolx7msuf_IvdHZoc05pSE9neVFWOWU2RTVYWWpBRmc&output=html

But this game was different, people simply did not want to work for it, and I completely failed to adapt my playstyle to this much more naive town than before.




The only person on town's side that had decent reads early was Foolishness, other people like xtf and wbg played alright-ish once they got the chance to pull their heads out of their asses, but that was just too late.

Personally I have a huge issue with people who seemingly don't care enough to put any thought into their playing. I had major confusion issues with chaos13 this game, because I couldn't simply write off his terrible reads as nooby, because he's not a noob, he's actually pretty good at this game, but this game everything was so off I simply couldn't imagine any other reason but him being wrong intentionally, while the truth was he simply failed to read the thread.

I'm going to bold this, because I failed to do this once when I was a newbie, and you all need to learn this lesson.

Whenever a townie dies or gets confirmed, especially through a lynch or vig shot, re-read the entire thread with this new information in hand.

Foolishness died and had so many nuggets of wisdom. I died and left you with basically the entire mafia team uncovered, but still you lynched people who were obviously not scum. It's so important to read the thread and not focus on looking for "scummy things" or "scumtells". That's what gets uncareful townies lynched, like Hiro and Sevryn. Anyone should've been able to tell they were town, it is how I initially pinned Curu as scum, he's very good at mafia and thus couldn't possibly think the Hiro and Sevryn lynches were good ideas. It was also the case against Mig.

This game is just the pinnacle of what happens when you mix pride with lazyness, you end up with a shitty, shitty town that's unable to do anything constructive. On day one we had a mafia against the wall, but we lynched a very, very obvious townie (like, what mafia would so blatantly bandwagon me?) because I was too proud to change my approach, and town was too proud and lazy to listen to my arguments and actually read Sevryn's posts and deduce the mindset he was in when he made those.

Thing is, I'll admit it, I'm getting more lazy with posting in a political way, by now I expect people to just listen to what I say, when I'm town and they do it usually ends up very well for town, but sometimes people just don't, and it's hard having to convince the same people every game. Some of us are just never going to be any useful anyway, VisceraEyes has almost never had a correct read, yet he seems unwilling to step back and reassess his approach. Kurumi is a troublemaker in his own, and giving him a gun was the worst thing that could happen to town. chaos13 has been having a streak of terrible reads (cosmic horror, xliv etc) but he'll bounce back once he lets go of his pride, because he's actually good.

I think both xtf and wbg have the potential to be good players, same with supersoft, and if hiro protagonist plays town like this again he can easily elevate himself to a good player too.

And then there's of course balance to consider, with DropBear and chaos13 derping like mad, who were supposed to be some of town's best and most experienced players there was very little to work with for town.

Mafia had 4 really good players, Curu, Mig, BrownBear and chaoser, while town really only had three, Jackal, Foolishness and me.

Anyway, I guess this game can act as a collective lesson to us all. So many new or new-ish people got their first taste of being completely fucking wrong time and time again this game, so I hope it allows them to break down and re-build their approach to play better mafia in the future, loads of fairly new players in this game that can go on to be good.

As for myself, I'll never again take being listened to for granted, I thought Foolishness's "If Palmar is mafia he's on drugs" would be enough, but again, head in ass syndrome ruined reads for town. Whenever someone like Foolishness says something like that, and then becomes confirmed, people better fucking listen.

Well played mafia, and again, sorry for my own performance this game.

GG

On August 23 2011 12:38 Foolishness wrote:
I spent last night rereading through all of chaoser's past games and all of brownbear's past games. It should be fairly obvious why I did this. I will defend chaoser to the grave if I have to, he's most certainly town.

On September 08 2011 14:53 Palmar wrote:
Curu scumslipped like a boss and no one noticed but me, thankfully mafia had Kurumi on their side. I guess I have been spoiled by playing with good town players who bother to work for their victory instead of expecting to be carried, and thus I thought it didn't matter how I acted, because people would most certainly be able to tell the difference anyway.

This was not the case during this game, people were stuck with their heads up their asses and did not want to read objectively, and thus it's my own failure not to adapt my play to the bad logic that worked with this town.

Here is the list I wrote on day 2, remember that later during the day foolishness and dropbear got "confirmed"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aolx7msuf_IvdHZoc05pSE9neVFWOWU2RTVYWWpBRmc&output=html

But this game was different, people simply did not want to work for it, and I completely failed to adapt my playstyle to this much more naive town than before.




The only person on town's side that had decent reads early was Foolishness, other people like xtf and wbg played alright-ish once they got the chance to pull their heads out of their asses, but that was just too late.

Personally I have a huge issue with people who seemingly don't care enough to put any thought into their playing. I had major confusion issues with chaos13 this game, because I couldn't simply write off his terrible reads as nooby, because he's not a noob, he's actually pretty good at this game, but this game everything was so off I simply couldn't imagine any other reason but him being wrong intentionally, while the truth was he simply failed to read the thread.

I'm going to bold this, because I failed to do this once when I was a newbie, and you all need to learn this lesson.

Whenever a townie dies or gets confirmed, especially through a lynch or vig shot, re-read the entire thread with this new information in hand.

Foolishness died and had so many nuggets of wisdom. I died and left you with basically the entire mafia team uncovered, but still you lynched people who were obviously not scum. It's so important to read the thread and not focus on looking for "scummy things" or "scumtells". That's what gets uncareful townies lynched, like Hiro and Sevryn. Anyone should've been able to tell they were town, it is how I initially pinned Curu as scum, he's very good at mafia and thus couldn't possibly think the Hiro and Sevryn lynches were good ideas. It was also the case against Mig.

This game is just the pinnacle of what happens when you mix pride with lazyness, you end up with a shitty, shitty town that's unable to do anything constructive. On day one we had a mafia against the wall, but we lynched a very, very obvious townie (like, what mafia would so blatantly bandwagon me?) because I was too proud to change my approach, and town was too proud and lazy to listen to my arguments and actually read Sevryn's posts and deduce the mindset he was in when he made those.

Thing is, I'll admit it, I'm getting more lazy with posting in a political way, by now I expect people to just listen to what I say, when I'm town and they do it usually ends up very well for town, but sometimes people just don't, and it's hard having to convince the same people every game. Some of us are just never going to be any useful anyway, VisceraEyes has almost never had a correct read, yet he seems unwilling to step back and reassess his approach. Kurumi is a troublemaker in his own, and giving him a gun was the worst thing that could happen to town. chaos13 has been having a streak of terrible reads (cosmic horror, xliv etc) but he'll bounce back once he lets go of his pride, because he's actually good.

I think both xtf and wbg have the potential to be good players, same with supersoft, and if hiro protagonist plays town like this again he can easily elevate himself to a good player too.

And then there's of course balance to consider, with DropBear and chaos13 derping like mad, who were supposed to be some of town's best and most experienced players there was very little to work with for town.

Mafia had 4 really good players, Curu, Mig, BrownBear and chaoser, while town really only had three, Jackal, Foolishness and me.

Anyway, I guess this game can act as a collective lesson to us all. So many new or new-ish people got their first taste of being completely fucking wrong time and time again this game, so I hope it allows them to break down and re-build their approach to play better mafia in the future, loads of fairly new players in this game that can go on to be good.

As for myself, I'll never again take being listened to for granted, I thought Foolishness's "If Palmar is mafia he's on drugs" would be enough, but again, head in ass syndrome ruined reads for town. Whenever someone like Foolishness says something like that, and then becomes confirmed, people better fucking listen.

Well played mafia, and again, sorry for my own performance this game.

GG

On September 08 2011 21:30 Palmar wrote:
@Chaos13 - yeah, as I repeatedly said I'm not going to (and I haven't) repeated this same style of play. It's very easy to pick out mafia like this,but it's terrible for making other people read the thread. Let's call it an experiment. I think I've found a more balanced way of pushing my ideas, and I'm using those in more recent games. It's slightly harder to find scum, but it also doesn't destroy town atmosphere.

I am fully aware of the shortcomings of this approach, which is why this is the only game I employed it and the only game I will employ it. This does not work as an excuse for people who didn't read the thread though.

And to answer your last point chaos13, is that when everyone is cool, calculated and logical, the mafia can be exactly the same. It's very, very easy to fake an analytical mistake, but it's surprisingly hard to fake an emotional response. By stirring things up, if you're able to then disconnect you from the situation, you can get miles better read on people, because things posted fast like 1-liners, arguments, shouting etc, is a lot less thought out than analysis, and thus much easier to read the true motivations, as they cannot be properly hidden in the time-frame it takes to respond to this emotional style of play.

Erandorr, thanks for telling me things I know.