|
On July 08 2011 23:48 syllogism wrote:
Look at the time line of sinani206 claiming Leon Trot-Ze and Sandroba claiming UMADIMIR LENEN. Pretty impressive improvisation if he managed to decide it was a good spot to fake claim and come up with a reasonable fake claim in less than 2 minutes. Plus him being Zombie Lenin makes sense. So much time wasted on people who are quite likely to be town at this point
I don't think going off name or role claims is any good at determining innocence or guilt. I would rather rely on actual post and action analysis. Under this system scum can act as scummy and anti-Town as they want as long as their name claim is believed. Drazerk made up some bullshit claim and everyone instantly believed him. I despise the playstyle of clearing Town or pinning Mafia simply based on flavor.
Honestly I don't know at this point. I'm going to go read through the thread again and focus on other people because I'm really starting to tunnel on just this issue and sandroba. I've thoroughly expressed my opinion on this matter.
|
On July 08 2011 23:52 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 23:48 syllogism wrote:
Look at the time line of sinani206 claiming Leon Trot-Ze and Sandroba claiming UMADIMIR LENEN. Pretty impressive improvisation if he managed to decide it was a good spot to fake claim and come up with a reasonable fake claim in less than 2 minutes. Plus him being Zombie Lenin makes sense. So much time wasted on people who are quite likely to be town at this point Why are we believing name claims its completely unprovable this is a CALLER game, for all we know Umadir Lenen is town until the conspirator is killed, then he discovers his love of donuts and becomes an Alien Menace/serial killer. Names mean nothing, roles mean nothing, actions are everything, and sandrobas actions don't point at him being town aligned.
I think his actions are townier than yours, frankly. Constantly pushing policy lynches against people who you believe to be town and then using your faulty anti nuke to [attempt to] save one of said policy lynches. Misreading your role PMs. Even worse, you then entrust him with keeping the town in check despite him being the catalyst to this whole mess. I think you are town, but your play certainly hasn't been helping town so far.
The focus should be people who haven't been keeping high profile
|
Oh wait, he actually longer than that to come up with the name. Still, I think the current focus on him is misplaced for the time being
|
Curu: I had youngminii pegged as likely town due to openly claiming anti-nuking for someone, but on reading your post, I'm really reconsidering. If sandroba is not actually nuke immune, a lot of things would make a lot more sense.
syllogism: Claims aren't as solid evidence as you say they are - AND they really shouldn't be thrown out so casually. Plus we still have flavor that zombies are a different faction.
Sandroba throwing his own claim out that quickly could mean he didn't even seriously consider his actions before posting...or, alternatively, he was actually waiting for an opportunity to post that claim and "capitalized" on it when he saw sinani's post.
|
Imagine if Drazerk didn't say that his claim was false. Everyone would be shitting themselves about the presence of another Conspirator right now. He would also pretty much never get suspected since he can act however he wants under the excuse that "I think he's Conspirator I'm gonna kill him." He wouldn't get Vig'd because Vig dies with him. He has a perfect excuse for not being a Mafia target because of the conditions surrounding his death.
Relying on name and role claims is just bad Town play. You even have a firsthand example in Drazerk. Sure you might get some relevant information but all it takes is one or two scum slipping through and becoming confirmed Town and you're going to have hell on lylo/mylo.
|
No one is relying on claims. They are just one bit of data that can be used to determine alignment. Sometimes it's a null tell, sometimes it's not.
|
On July 09 2011 00:02 syllogism wrote:
No one is relying on claims. They are just one bit of data that can be used to determine alignment. Sometimes it's a null tell, sometimes it's not.
On July 08 2011 23:48 syllogism wrote:
Look at the time line of sinani206 claiming Leon Trot-Ze and Sandroba claiming UMADIMIR LENEN. Pretty impressive improvisation if he managed to decide it was a good spot to fake claim and come up with a reasonable fake claim in less than 2 minutes. Plus him being Zombie Lenin makes sense. So much time wasted on people who are quite likely to be town at this point
Sigh. We are responding to your post, and now you try to dismiss the entire discussion out of hand?
|
GMarshal: Are you saying you lost a life to Palmar's "fake nuke" and another to sandroba's nuke?
|
Relying solely on nameclaims is dumb, but completely dismissing them as useless information is just bad. We need to be looking at everything, claims, play, meta, any dt checks etc. You can't just automatically say that someone is town because they nameclaimed (see: cultists) but you can't ignore the claims either.
|
We also don't seem to have an explanation on what happened to sinani's nuke on JeeJee. An extra life or other ability?
|
United States22154 Posts
On July 09 2011 00:10 Zona wrote:
GMarshal: Are you saying you lost a life to Palmar's "fake nuke" and another to sandroba's nuke?
That is correct. When I read my Pm for the first time it said something around the lines of "you are Chinese Restaurant, you start with 1 nuke and 1 extra life"
I then elected Cash to be my leader which granted 1 extra life and 1 anti-nuke, I completely forgot that I got one extra life to start with, so I thought I had lost my only extra life to Palmars fake nuke. Turns out I had one more than I thought.
|
One final reason why name claims are bad: Mataza's role gets more powers when his faction leader dies. Maybe his win condition changes too, who knows. Let's not create any more chaos or confusion than necessary. Leaders may not counterclaim simply because there may be more harm in doing it than good.
If someone is endangered of being lynched then we can get a claim but don't fall into the trap of relying on just that to prove innocence or guilt.
|
I'm not ignoring such claims, I was arguing against syllogism's idea that "people who are quite likely to be town at this point" because of "the time line of sinani206 claiming Leon Trot-Ze and Sandroba claiming UMADIMIR LENEN. "
But yes, we should probably move on.
|
On July 09 2011 00:12 Zona wrote:
We also don't seem to have an explanation on what happened to sinani's nuke on JeeJee. An extra life or other ability?
He claims he antimissiled it himself. Which is either true on his part or smart scum play. Since antimissiles seem to be anonymous (unless someone has an ability that lets you see that info), we have no way to know.
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On July 09 2011 00:01 Curu wrote:
Imagine if Drazerk didn't say that his claim was false. Everyone would be shitting themselves about the presence of another Conspirator right now. He would also pretty much never get suspected since he can act however he wants under the excuse that "I think he's Conspirator I'm gonna kill him." He wouldn't get Vig'd because Vig dies with him. He has a perfect excuse for not being a Mafia target because of the conditions surrounding his death.
Relying on name and role claims is just bad Town play. You even have a firsthand example in Drazerk. Sure you might get some relevant information but all it takes is one or two scum slipping through and becoming confirmed Town and you're going to have hell on lylo/mylo.
I am so so glad someone picked up on this its why I despise the whole concept of name / role claiming.
I find it interesting Syllo is pushing so hard for this though. His first major appeal was against the mataza nuke right when everyone was claiming for the policies. At the time I think only me and palmar caught on that he could of been buying some easy "Town Credit" I know some of this accusations is now lost now Palmar flipped conspirator but it could be something to take into consideration along side all this role claiming mumbo jumbo.
|
On July 09 2011 00:14 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 00:10 Zona wrote:
GMarshal: Are you saying you lost a life to Palmar's "fake nuke" and another to sandroba's nuke? That is correct. When I read my Pm for the first time it said something around the lines of "you are Chinese Restaurant, you start with 1 nuke and 1 extra life" I then elected Cash to be my leader which granted 1 extra life and 1 anti-nuke, I completely forgot that I got one extra life to start with, so I thought I had lost my only extra life to Palmars fake nuke. Turns out I had one more than I thought.
Okay. Taking GMarshal's response at face value for now, there's something I wanted to note: It's possible for Palmar's "fake" nuke to actually have been real. Caller did say somewhere that fake nukes remove lives too, but I don't want everyone making the assumption that the nuke was confirmed 100% fake just in case it matters later on (a minuscule chance, to be sure: just in case we evaluate a future "fake" nuke by comparing it with Palmar's or something).
|
Where be day post?
Oh and to the conversation that's been going on: Don't trust roleclaims.
/pointless discussion
|
am very busy at work. will probably take until 9:00 KST for me to put up day post. VERY SORRY.
|
Another player who hasn't been putting the effort he usually does into scum hunting is Mig. Then again in last game he was scum and was putting a lot more effort into it so maybe I just don't know his meta.
|
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On July 09 2011 00:36 syllogism wrote:
Another player who hasn't been putting the effort he usually does into scum hunting is Mig. Then again in last game he was scum and was putting a lot more effort into it so maybe I just don't know his meta.
As someone who was on that scum team he did pretty much take charge of the situations when Wiggles wasn't around telling people who to scum hunt etc.
Doubt he is scum but he does need to do a bit more hunting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
