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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On June 23 2011 02:37 flamewheel wrote: Hmm there are so many people I'd shoot in this game... I know, right?!? Looks like a good roster, I'm a bit sad I cannot play. Will try to read along, do put on a good show! | ||
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I guess at least some will be cleared up after tonight. I need to read through this thread again, Caller's claim blew up my prior understanding of what is going on. | ||
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citi.zen
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As it happens, I also like Fishball's scum list of VisceraEyes, LSB and ilovejonn. I would add sandroba and Kurumi to it - both have done little more but spam filler posts since the start of the game. BC could well be red/GF. Think about the people he chose to "test": both had claimed publicly, and a red BC would know they are town aligned. Unlike Fishball's DT claim, BC's "checks" wre not meant to add any new information, making this a bizarre role claim, almost like he wanted to start with the credibility then set himself up for better stories in the future. Caller is Caller. It would not be unlike him to lie as town, or change his lies around 100000x as mafia. At this point he either has another bullet or he does not. We'll find out soon enough. | ||
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I am chief investigator. If I lived past night 2 my department would start broadcasting investigation results on every death from that point on - i.e. this is no longer a no flip game. Ace must have enjoyed giving this role to Radfield. | ||
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citi.zen
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On July 02 2011 23:47 Palmar wrote: 2 people died tonight. 1 kill is still unaccounted for. Not if Caller lied again, per LSB's post. I don't get Caller at all this game. Just as I can't wrap my head around BC - why would a vanilla townie lie? In a no-flip, no-pm game too... Also, while all this lying is going on, look who is sitting pretty egging it along: On July 01 2011 17:44 Chezinu wrote: I think Caller is playing the most pro-town game. He has done a wonderful job. Wonderful job indeed. If you're mafia! | ||
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Remember, from now on all flips will be revealed. ##Vote: Caller. | ||
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On July 03 2011 18:10 Palmar wrote: So how do we go from here? Tomorrow, one of us will be dead, and we need to hit mafia. So how do we do that? There's basically two different ways we can go about it. a) We assume that LSB and ILJ are lying and we kill one of them. b) We trust them and use that to reduce the pool of players to kill from. I'm inclined to go with b. It's the simpler explanation and really, it's worth the gamble in a game where it seems ridiculously hard to analyse people and get them killed. So, all we have left is re-reading this thread and try to pick up reasons as to why people are innocent, and then kill into the list of people who look scmmy. ILJ: Confirmed LSB with a pretty good explanation of what happened, I'm going to gamble on him telling the truth. LSB: He had the right of it with Caller's death, again it's a gamble, but let's stick him into the nice people category, for a lack of other options. Kurumi: Just because Caller told me he's not scum. I'd have killed him day1 Palmar: If you don't believe it, just stall the game for a cycle by lynching me. So, assuming those are our town reads, let's have a look at some other people in the thread. Jackal58: I have no read on him, nothing. He just lurks his lurkery lurk away and leaves little to be analysed. But hey, we're in a retarded situation anyway, let's just trust him. citi.zen: He's got the chief investigator role. It's probably a town sided role, but it could just be Ace fucking with us and his role is really mafia sided. But I'm again willing to let people slide on really thin things this time, so yes, he gets to be not mafia too. And that leaves us with: Amber[Light] Chezinu Sandroba So, how do we pick a person and lynch into this list? I think my best bet is Sandroba, but Chezinu is also a good alternative, as he's scummy. But yeah, Sandroba is going to be my suggestion for a kill tomorrow, mostly based on the fact that he has provided nothing, claimed probably the easiest role to claim in this game, and has just been an all-around derp. Really good player, really bad performance. That sounds about right. Caller lied and got caught, just like BC. They were dumb lies too. What was the point of BC claiming a blue role when he was green? I can see BC lying if he was a vet or some sort of meth man, but as plain town, what was the point? They pretty much lost us the game. Right now my lynch pick is Chez - he was way too adamant about Caller's alignment throughout this mess. Sandroba I've never played with but he certainly makes a fine lynch as well. Most of his posts are clear filler and he's fallen off the radar entirely lately. For tonight: if you are a medic, don't feel compelled to protect me - my ability was already activated. Take a random pick between me, Palmar and Jackal - I want to know more about his role so he should survive. | ||
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citi.zen
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On July 04 2011 01:20 sandroba wrote: I totally agree with palmar to go with option B. Here goes my list of doom: Amber[Light] Kurumi Chezinu (Jackal58?) I'm willing to bet the last mafia are all here. I can't analyse shit this game and I blame you trolls for making my life dificult. Luckly I have it right this time. " I have nothing but trust me!" Trolls? This game is under 50 pages long and you can't keep up? Give me a break. | ||
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On July 04 2011 11:25 Chezinu wrote: You can't blame them. I agree with Palmer, we have an advantage because we know players like BC, Caller, and Fishball better than others playing this game. What was the point of that post Chez? Logically it doesn't make sense: whether or not you know those players, the fact remains that the thread is under 50 pages long and it's absurd to complain about "trolls". On the face of it there is zero content, so I have to conclude you only posted it to show me you can use the word "we" in a sentence, opposite to "them" and "others", of course. This approach looks familiar... where have I seen something similar I wonder? Oh yeah: On July 01 2011 17:44 Chezinu wrote: I think Caller is playing the most pro-town game. He has done a wonderful job. You knew full well Caller was not red. So you pretended to trust him on extremely thin evidence. You praised him all game long, which was brilliant: 1) he would not be likely to shoot you; 2) he would be more inclined to trust your suspect lists and shoot townies (by the way, nice touch to later claim the lists were not entirely serious or that you only had FB as fishy so the mafia would not shoot him); and 3) if he somehow got lynched, you could take credit for defending him. You can't lose with this plan! Guess what: I am not Caller. You get lynched tomorrow. | ||
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Now what? | ||
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What I wrote was that Caller is hard to figure out. He plays however he feels like playing as town and as a red he likes (and is good at) being in the spotlight and cooking up convoluted stories where every day he changed his claim: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116703 But yeah. I do understand what you are trying to do Chez. As I mentioned, I am not Caller, you won't get off the hook that easily. | ||
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##Unvote ##vote: Sandroba | ||
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http://wiki.epicmafia.com/index.php?title=Lawyer | ||
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Btw - FB is right, these tome cycles suck. Can we all agree to shorten them? | ||
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##Vote: Chezinu | ||
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So yeah... | ||
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The funny thing is JeeJee himself brings that up just as he once more tries to make the whole conversation revolve around " what could be" if we make... "creative" role assumptions. Go read waw1 - you will see exactly what I mean. My read is simple: JeeJee came in trying to throw Palmar under the buss. Read the previous page: he directly asks me/amber if we would consider a case against Palmar. I post I will be traveling. He instantly does a 180 turn and decides to go after me instead. Then the story telling begins. Nice try, but no cigar. You lose regardless of who you kill tonight. | ||
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##Vote: JeeJee | ||
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When you start your so called argument with "assume you know I'm green" you can of course conclude everyone else is red. Whatever, I'm going out. | ||
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1. Rely on strong fundamentals, don't try to be a hero. Look at Fishball's play as town if you want a very good example of someone who thinks critically, calls nonsense when he sees it, and takes charge when activity is lagging. If other townies followed his lead and played a similar solid style instead of trying to set clever "traps" for each other, we'd be looking at a different outcome. 2. In 9 out of 10 cases, lying as town is a very bad idea. Even if you are an otherwise strong player, you should generally not do it. Town was at a huge advantage right after Fishball claimed DT - I thought the game was over and done. Then, out of the blue BOTH Caller and BC made up really fancy lies and gave the reds a slim chance to get back in it. 3. Play to your audience. I am sure in the past few days it became clear to many spectators I was red. I didn't care - I wasn't trying to fool them. I could have argued with JeeJee about the specifics of his argument and suggested he must in fact be the "missing" scum doctor based on voting records and the fact that his claimed role was never actually proven. Instead, I chose to bypass that entire argument and simply reinforce the remaining player's existing suspicions - because I knew they were there. 4. Don't give up! JeeJee did a terrific job piecing the entire puzzle together and argued it very well down to the very end. Conversely, as a red, don't "freeze" when you can't come up with an explanation of events that makes sense to you. Start with the conclusion that you are innocent, then change any assumption you need to. A real innocent like JeeJee will say: if the world you see does not make sense with my as an innocent, you are simply looking at it wrong; come see it from my angle. 5. Chez scares me more than anyone else when I am red and he is town. From the moment I joined it was my number one goal to get rid of him one way or another. His day 1 list of suspects is clear evidence he maphacks. He also immediately thought of questioning my role claim, or at least very clearly state that a role =/= alignment. Special credit goes to sandroba, because much of his activity was invisible to others. The role claim that ultimately won the game was his merit as much as mine, we discussed it on skype at length. He was also very quick to recognize when he had no way back into the game and took the initiative to pm me to buss him, instead of pouting and/or asking me to go down with him. I put down the very first vote on him and that went a long way to buying me credibility once he flipped red. That is what team play is about. Also, thanks Ace for hosting. It's always a pleasure. | ||
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On July 09 2011 15:36 Chezinu wrote: I did have a major advantage this game: I didn't get my role PM until 13:24 So I knew the following had red/blue roles (GGQ got his role before me but was after me on the player list): GGQ GM Fishball That's why I knew GM was mafia when ask earlier in the thread. Initially, I thought Fishball was vigi and I quoted him at one point and sent him a hidden message to shoot GM. You had to click the smiley face. That's why I was inclined to believe Caller was telling the truth and helped me somewhat believe Fishball's role claim. I was really surprised Fishball lived past night 2. If I was mafia, I totally would have killed him after GGQ since he confirmed so early. ROLF - do you have that post? | ||
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That's so awesome. And, sadly, part of the reason people don't trust you: most of us can't keep up! I am curious if FB even got that message. | ||
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On July 09 2011 16:13 sandroba wrote: Also let me reminf you guys that YM claimed Bernard, so all theories regarding Scum being fed fake claims have gone to hell. I claimed Lenin, so as long as no one counter claims me you have no reason to doubt it. Wrong thread. | ||
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On July 10 2011 09:06 Fishball wrote: If LSB could have protected me there, I would have been extremely impressed. He used that on BC night 0. | ||
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"I used my one bullet to shoot GMarshal." The response came back "true". The tested statement really has two parts: one was true; one not so much, but could be interpreted as such, ex - one bullet that night. At any rate if Ace only provided a single true/false statement he may well have referred to the shooting of GM. I think BC could and should have made the case for his innocence, especially with FB confirming him as town. As I said in my initial post: don't freeze based on what you know happened (in this case, that you lied about the role). Start with the premise that you are clean, then look for ways to explain the world to fit that premise. Edit: as a red, I was terrified at the prospect BC was telling the truth. You could simply ask for everyone to write "I am not red" in a post and essentially you'd have another DT. Talk about taunting the mafia! BC made an interesting claim and clearly his reads of Caller and FB as town were correct. He just got... overly fancy. Playing "straight" and backing up FB and Caller in the thread would have created a very hard to stop force. | ||
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You bring up another interesting point that was lost on most players: there was no way Caller would be red at that point in the game. At most he could be 3rd party, but not red. We knew it and were thrilled to get him lynched in short order, before anybody asked questions (anybody other than Chez, that is). | ||
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On July 11 2011 06:09 Amber[LighT] wrote: And it worked, oddly enough. Though I don't think anyone actually believed Caller to be scum. I couldn't see either of you actually being scum. It just looked like troll vs troll and a lucky guess. No, it didn't work. I also didn't see trolling. FB wasn't doing it, rol was dead, Chez was on point. Us two mafia were discrete, if anything. The entire game took under 50 pages - that's remarkable for 18 people. Look at waw or other games for a comparison. This is why I thought "fundamentals" were all that was needed at that point in my view. And, if you go back, plenty of people did think Caller was red at the time. That vote was almost unanimous - see Chez's posts after the lynch. | ||
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