EPTTL Mafia XL - Page 73
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Munk-E
United States672 Posts
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aprudds
Canada144 Posts
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omgCRAZY
Canada551 Posts
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
lol kairo fail I love how both gtrsrs and myself got roleblocked. I think that these were probably bad decisions given how vocal and accusatory we were both being. We also probably weren't DT's pushing for anything given that our tunneling of iGrok began on day 1. Also, my analysis of Munk-E must have been dead on given that he was the one who hit me. Although given the direction the town was headed, it was already gg and it didn't matter who the mafia hit. I'll still stand by my previous statement that getting hit probably saved me from an IRL kurumi-induced aneurysm (screw you Vain for saving him ><). All in all I think that the biggest reason for the mafia defeat was the modkills. lafali getting modkilled was the nail in the iGrok coffin (although iGrok really didn't help his case by being overly patronizing in a newbie mafia, which brought suspicion on himself in the first place). Ultimately, I'd call it a misplay by iGrok combined with some town luck - I think he should have realized that in a newbie game none of his "experience" accounts for anything because the premise of the game is to be deceitful and suspicious of others. Additionally, the early reduction in mafia KP for night 1 and again for night 2 from silly modkills really limited their ability to do make anything go their way. The xkcd/iGrok situation was what finally sealed the deal for the mafia. It was incredibly lucky for town that the numbers worked out as they did forcing mafia to either let their GF die or all vote for the same person. In retrospect, if one of them had bussed iGrok there by mistake, the game could still be going on (especially with the aid of modkills, the tides could have been turned really fast). | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:00 Munk-E wrote: lol! See aprudds! I told you vain would've been a better target than pyo! Wait, I'm just curious, but what was the rationale for picking me? I would have thought that my being pretty vocal was a clear indication of me not being a blue (or at least not caring if I got hit). | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
and i disagree pyo, we would have come to the same conclusion if amazingxkcd had just role-claimed instead of letting himself get lynched oh well, gg, town rules, mafia drools. also to supersoft. i don't think this was addressed. but mafia KP is x/2 rounded up. so even if we had gotten lucky and lynched aprubbs instead of Munk-E, Munk-E would still have gotten a kill per night, so there was no reason not to lynch him. just for future reference kurumi i humbly request you to not sign up for any more games that i sign up for but i look forward to playing with pyo and trancestorm and some more of you in the future  | ||
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Munk-E
United States672 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
i remember this one time on epicmafia where we had a set-up with Cop Doctor Fool (village idiot) 3 mafia 2 town and the cop died night 1. traditionally the fool claims cop and tries to joint-win with the mafia. so this smartass immediately after the flip was like "i'm the cop" and then "i retract" to everyone else he was just being funny but i saw right through it and pegged him as mafia pretending to be the fool. so i asked the town to start piling votes on him to see how he'd react. of course if he really was the fool he would have hammered his own vote and won the game but he kept screaming at us to take our votes off him because he retracted and blah blah blah he flipped as the roleblocker and we won a nearly impossible-to-win set-up. the whole time in the "dead player chat" (where people who have been killed can chat with each other while they watch the game finish) he was bitching about how bad of a player i was for lynching someone based on a smartass comment, pretty much how iGrok was saying we shouldn't lynch him based on my suspicions. anyways it was really vindicating as he -karma'd my account and left me a bunch of comments about how bad i was and i was just like lol u mad? | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:16 gtrsrs wrote: kurumi i humbly request you to not sign up for any more games that i sign up for but i look forward to playing with pyo and trancestorm and some more of you in the future Well as for me, I have no intention of ever playing in another mafia with Kurumi ever again. I will preemptively /out of any mafia game that actually includes him. | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:21 gtrsrs wrote: also i can't wait for iGrok to come in and tell us that tunneling him was bad play and we're bad players i remember this one time on epicmafia where we had a set-up with Cop Doctor Fool (village idiot) 3 mafia 2 town and the cop died night 1. traditionally the fool claims cop and tries to joint-win with the mafia. so this smartass immediately after the flip was like "i'm the cop" and then "i retract" to everyone else he was just being funny but i saw right through it and pegged him as mafia pretending to be the fool. so i asked the town to start piling votes on him to see how he'd react. of course if he really was the fool he would have hammered his own vote and won the game but he kept screaming at us to take our votes off him because he retracted and blah blah blah he flipped as the roleblocker and we won a nearly impossible-to-win set-up. the whole time in the "dead player chat" (where people who have been killed can chat with each other while they watch the game finish) he was bitching about how bad of a player i was for lynching someone based on a smartass comment, pretty much how iGrok was saying we shouldn't lynch him based on my suspicions. anyways it was really vindicating as he -karma'd my account and left me a bunch of comments about how bad i was and i was just like lol u mad? well, to be fair, you don't really have to be a dick about it. I mean good job being the first to pick up on iGrok, but rubbing it in like that is just as bad as iGrok being the pompous jack-ass that first tipped you off. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:25 Pyo wrote: well, to be fair, you don't really have to be a dick about it. I mean good job being the first to pick up on iGrok, but rubbing it in like that is just as bad as iGrok being the pompous jack-ass that first tipped you off. nah there's a difference between trying to control the game and getting caught for it then rage-quitting, and being proud of essentially "winning" the game for your team. i deserve to brag a bit. so do you, you articulated what i was feeling about iGrok much better than i did. bigger than being right in this game is convincing other people that you're right, something i've never been super good at. so cheers | ||
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CjrNinja
Australia223 Posts
Also, hoping to see what iGrok has to say in his post game writeup. Thanks to Meapak and Varpulis for moderating twas a fun game. | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:42 CjrNinja wrote: Thanks to Meapak and Varpulis for moderating twas a fun game.I'll second this. Thanks for hosting a mafia game for newer player to get an idea of how things work, even if it did get ruined by a bunch of modkills. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
Sucks there were so many mod kills, but what can you do. I would also be curious to see the mafia thread, esp. I wanna see iGrok's reaction to getting accused/getting lynched lol | ||
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heist
United States720 Posts
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
GGQ Mafia XL Thoughts -These will be just rough thoughts on how the game progresses that I’ll post after the game finishes to help the newbies understand what was happening better (hopefully) in case Ver or the other vets don’t. I may or may not clean it up and make it look nicer before I post it. I’ll be jotting things down regularly, so I won’t have the benefit of hindsight when writing. I will have the benefit of knowing the roles list, though (I wanted to know immediately if I was right about iGrok luls). -so Day 2, happily things started out pretty much as I would have tried to make them go if I was still alive. iGrok is being pressured hard (cheers for those who took up the torch!), forcing a two-person vote that was tight from the very start of the day. This should force mafia out, first to try to divert votes, then to try to defend iGrok to keep him alive. -as a side note, I see a number of people unconvinced by my analysis, particularly the part where I said that his attempt to show himself as a town leader indicated that he was godfather. I regret that I didn’t have time to go more in depth in that post. What I meant is that iGrok was trying to appear like a leader to town without actually leading town anywhere. As other players pointed out, he was quite passive on day 1. Playing passive on day one is fine, but if you are putting yourself forward as a leader and leading nowhere, chances are that you want the town to go nowhere. -for those who arent convinced iGrok is scum, here’s a thought process that you should have in a situation like this. The votes are close. Very close, and they have been all day. There’s been no serious attempt to split votes and distract the town. That means mafia aren’t fucking around. One of the two players, iGrok or amazingxkcd, is scum and the mafia are trying to save him. A surprising number of people are actually considering that both of them are scum. What? Really? How does that make sense? What’s the mafia’s plan then? IF they were both scum, you can bet that the thread and the voting list would look MUCH different. There would be accusations flying in every direction creating WIFOM if one of them actually got lynched. Plus they would definitely be bussing each other to make the other look better when lynched. Instead we have xkcd defending iGrok and iGrok pretty much ignoring xkcd. No, only one is scum. You need to look at who is getting sketchier people defending him. In this vote, the sketchier people are defending iGrok and voting for amazingxkcd. Thus we lynch iGrok. -for those who already believe iGrok is scum, this close lynch should only confirm that for you. Mafia are scrambling to win this lynch. That means you need to look carefully at who is defending him or just avoiding analyzing him. Naturally, some townies will be defending him, but these will generally at least explain their thoughts and reasoning in a believable manner (though it can be hard to identify that in a game full of new players...). As it turns out, almost the entire mafia team has already identified themselves in this way (munk-e hasn’t posted on day 2 yet as of the time of this writing...) Read on to see how. -aprudds: probably the hardest one to catch, but the first that should have raised suspicions. While town talk is about iGrok’s suspiciousness and whether to lynch him, aprudds says only that my case on him was good with no further explanation or follow through, then proceeds to throw accusations around on drazerk and xkcd and jackal, trying to find another target. Avoids actually discussing iGrok or the arguments against him. Remember that he defended lafali on day 1 as well -grush, spike, and amazingall: all three bandwagon on xkcd while bringing nothing new against either iGrok or xkcd. Another theme for all three players is that they say something like ‘the case against iGrok is good’ or ‘GGQ’s analysis of iGrok can’t be ignored’ or some shit like that to make it seem like they are at least considering iGrok as a suspect, while in reality they all just vote immediately for xkcd and defended iGrok afterwards. This should ring major alarm bells. They’ve decided before the fact that they are going to defend iGrok and vote xkcd but they don’t want it to look that way -now, I’m not saying you should have picked these guy out as the scum right away, I doubt I would have gotten all of them either. There were several other people who seemed like they would have been suspicious to me if I didn’t already know the role list. These include impervious who ignored the events of the night and the iGrok issue and instead tried to get everyone to post their experience (“Contributing without contributing”), heist who had his vote on someone irrelevant, and perhaps cherubael for voting xkcd without explanation. Some people suspected Treadmill for constantly defending iGrok, but even though he was wrong about pretty much everything on day 2, the tone and motivation of his posts were clearly townie. But the way that most of the mafia players are making posts trying to make it look like they are doing something that they actually arent should be the red light telling you to lynch them. -it’s the psychology of these posts that separates them from the posts made by the townies. The mafia KNOW that iGrok is scum, which means that they definitely want to save him. But because they KNOW that he is scum, they also want to distance themselves to avoid appearing suspicious if/when he flips. This contradiction often bleeds through in mafia posts. Knowing more information than the town is an advantage, but it can also be a curse if you fail to hide it well. -as a side note, I already addressed this in the thread while I was alive, but you guys shouldnt be doing such excessively long analysis. Most of it is irrelevant and just makes people less likely to actually read what you are writing. Even more importantly, don’t make a big list trying to mark everybody as either town or scum on day fucking 2. Chances are very high that you will never be able to know every scum that early in any game you play. Before I died, I would only have listed iGrok as being scum. My secondary suspicions like jimbooo, vain, etc were still too uncertain. The guys I listed as possible suspects like xkcd, senj, monster all would have changed to probably town in my eyes from their posting on day 2. Just try to find one or two scum at a time, then use them to help you find others. You can’t kill more than one scum at a time anyway. Likewise, don’t have too many people that you trust as town because it gives you a subconsious bias when you read their posts later. Most people should be somewhere in the murky middle. -also, jackal is not scummy in this game. Yeah he played quite poorly on day 2, doing more or less nothing. But his decision to lynch rookie on day 1, while it was a poor read, had no mafia motivation; there was no other lynch or valuable discussion going on that needed to be diverted. Votes were split etc etc -so munk-e ended up coming in at the last moment and finishing the lynch on xkcd instead of iGrok. When iGrok flips red, that’s suspicious enough, but the fact that both days he’s lurked until the very end, then come in with one post and a vote to avoid modkill should raise eyebrows. -night 2; it should be clear with xkcd flipping town that iGrok must be mafia. vigis should shoot immediately, and investigations should begin into the people who defended iGrok and voted for xkcd -ok so apparently iGrok is getting killed instead now. weird and wild. But with him flipping red, there is more than enough evidence out there for a skilled vigilante to shoot grush/spike/awesomeall tonight. munk-e would be a good dt check, and while aprudds has done a good job blending in with his posts, he now shows up on the lafali defense list, iGrok’s don’t lynch list, and the xkcd lynch list. That’s enough to call for a dt check too. Good luck. -jackal is looking worse and worse as the game goes on. What’s up man? Not really interested in this game? -jackal was shot, but everyone seems to be pretty much on the right track for now. I’ll probably stop writing this unless something unexpected happens. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
Despite that day 1/ 2 was quite fun regardless if people thought i was mafia for the better half of them | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6785 Posts
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
Some thoughts on the thoughts: + Show Spoiler + On June 16 2011 13:13 GGQ wrote: -so Day 2, happily things started out pretty much as I would have tried to make them go if I was still alive. iGrok is being pressured hard (cheers for those who took up the torch!), forcing a two-person vote that was tight from the very start of the day. This should force mafia out, first to try to divert votes, then to try to defend iGrok to keep him alive. At first I got on iGrok's trail because he was being a jerk. It wasn't until the first night after reading your post that it really occurred to me, he wasn't being an arrogant douche per se, he was just trying to sheep people. At this point I was absolutely sure he was mafia, but wasn't sure exactly how to proceed given that I was a little worried about coming off too obviously town and didn't want to get night hit. + Show Spoiler + -for those who arent convinced iGrok is scum, here’s a thought process that you should have in a situation like this. The votes are close. Very close, and they have been all day. There’s been no serious attempt to split votes and distract the town. That means mafia aren’t fucking around. One of the two players, iGrok or amazingxkcd, is scum and the mafia are trying to save him. A surprising number of people are actually considering that both of them are scum. What? Really? How does that make sense? What’s the mafia’s plan then? IF they were both scum, you can bet that the thread and the voting list would look MUCH different. There would be accusations flying in every direction creating WIFOM if one of them actually got lynched. Plus they would definitely be bussing each other to make the other look better when lynched. Instead we have xkcd defending iGrok and iGrok pretty much ignoring xkcd. No, only one is scum. You need to look at who is getting sketchier people defending him. In this vote, the sketchier people are defending iGrok and voting for amazingxkcd. Thus we lynch iGrok. I was definitely one of those guilty of thinking that they were both mafia. Mostly this was because I was lazy and didn't really think it through, but part of it was me being confused by xkcd's excessively long analysis post filled with bad analysis. I remembered iGrok doing something like it on day 1, so I wasn't really sure what to think about him. + Show Spoiler + -for those who already believe iGrok is scum, this close lynch should only confirm that for you. Mafia are scrambling to win this lynch. That means you need to look carefully at who is defending him or just avoiding analyzing him. Naturally, some townies will be defending him, but these will generally at least explain their thoughts and reasoning in a believable manner (though it can be hard to identify that in a game full of new players...). As it turns out, almost the entire mafia team has already identified themselves in this way (munk-e hasn’t posted on day 2 yet as of the time of this writing...) Read on to see how. while it turned out that the entire mafia team did vote xkcd to try to save iGrok, I had become very suspect of the mafia and whether they were actually playing optimally or even in their best interest. After all, why would they double hit you (GGQ) on day 1. That just makes no sense at all. Did they really think your analysis was that dangerous that they had to remove you? Given how correct you were, maybe that was something that iGrok et. al. were cognizant of, but it just didn't make much sense. Given this sub-optimal play, all the mafia having voted for xkcd wasn't such a sure thing to me. I kind of would like to know what a more experienced observer/participant thinks about this. + Show Spoiler + -aprudds: probably the hardest one to catch, but the first that should have raised suspicions. While town talk is about iGrok’s suspiciousness and whether to lynch him, aprudds says only that my case on him was good with no further explanation or follow through, then proceeds to throw accusations around on drazerk and xkcd and jackal, trying to find another target. Avoids actually discussing iGrok or the arguments against him. Remember that he defended lafali on day 1 as well To be honest, he was the first one I was actually suspicious of in the game because of his day 1 accusation of freeloader. In fact I actually voted for him at first. However, iGrok acted more suspicious and given aprudds limited participation, I figured if he is mafia, then at least he's not trying to mislead or confuse town, so he'd be a lower priority lynch. After the day 2 voting fiasco and all the modkills, he kind of just drifted out of my consideration. Fortunately he reappeared on the defend lafali/vote for xkcd list. + Show Spoiler + -grush, spike, and amazingall: all three bandwagon on xkcd while bringing nothing new against either iGrok or xkcd. Another theme for all three players is that they say something like ‘the case against iGrok is good’ or ‘GGQ’s analysis of iGrok can’t be ignored’ or some shit like that to make it seem like they are at least considering iGrok as a suspect, while in reality they all just vote immediately for xkcd and defended iGrok afterwards. This should ring major alarm bells. They’ve decided before the fact that they are going to defend iGrok and vote xkcd but they don’t want it to look that way I realized this too, but I really didn't put 2 and 2 together to realize what this meant. The nagging issue of I'm not experienced, so I don't really know how people would normally act/are expected to act really got me here. Fortunately, we got lucky in that they either modkilled themselves or drew enough suspicion from others. + Show Spoiler + -now, I’m not saying you should have picked these guy out as the scum right away, I doubt I would have gotten all of them either. There were several other people who seemed like they would have been suspicious to me if I didn’t already know the role list. These include impervious who ignored the events of the night and the iGrok issue and instead tried to get everyone to post their experience (“Contributing without contributing”), heist who had his vote on someone irrelevant, and perhaps cherubael for voting xkcd without explanation. Some people suspected Treadmill for constantly defending iGrok, but even though he was wrong about pretty much everything on day 2, the tone and motivation of his posts were clearly townie. But the way that most of the mafia players are making posts trying to make it look like they are doing something that they actually arent should be the red light telling you to lynch them. lol impervious was on my list too. In any case that's some interesting advice that I'll keep in mind going forward. + Show Spoiler + -also, jackal is not scummy in this game. Yeah he played quite poorly on day 2, doing more or less nothing. But his decision to lynch rookie on day 1, while it was a poor read, had no mafia motivation; there was no other lynch or valuable discussion going on that needed to be diverted. Votes were split etc etc I was so sure that he town that it didn't even occur to me that a vigi would kill him. Given that the list of "experienced" mafia players outlined by iGrok, cross-referenced with looking back at old mafia games, it just didn't make sense for both him and iGrok to be mafia. And he was, I was almost sure that jackal would have been the godfather. + Show Spoiler + -so munk-e ended up coming in at the last moment and finishing the lynch on xkcd instead of iGrok. When iGrok flips red, that’s suspicious enough, but the fact that both days he’s lurked until the very end, then come in with one post and a vote to avoid modkill should raise eyebrows. I'm really proud of myself for having picked up on this!! seeing lafali modkill himself by voting late and then TheAwesomeALL stating in the ban list thread (I was just looking at his post history) that he had been trying to vote at the last minute but forgot really sealed the deal for me on Munk-E. Unfortunately, I got night killed after pointing this out. -night 2; it should be clear with xkcd flipping town that iGrok must be mafia. vigis should shoot immediately, and investigations should begin into the people who defended iGrok and voted for xkcd + Show Spoiler + -ok so apparently iGrok is getting killed instead now. weird and wild. But with him flipping red, there is more than enough evidence out there for a skilled vigilante to shoot grush/spike/awesomeall tonight. munk-e would be a good dt check, and while aprudds has done a good job blending in with his posts, he now shows up on the lafali defense list, iGrok’s don’t lynch list, and the xkcd lynch list. That’s enough to call for a dt check too. Good luck. -jackal is looking worse and worse as the game goes on. What’s up man? Not really interested in this game? -jackal was shot, but everyone seems to be pretty much on the right track for now. I’ll probably stop writing this unless something unexpected happens. After iGrok got lynched and 4 mafia got modkilled, it was basically GG and it seemed as though everyone lost interest in the game. Anyway, thanks for your notes GGQ, some really insightful stuff. I now know who's history to follow to learn how to play this game. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
Kurumi, I'm sure you won't be hurt by this. In fact, I'm reasonably certain that you'll feel I'm targetting you out of spite. "But I was right!", you'll say. In this case, being right is irrelevant. You are the most terrible mafia player I have ever seen. I would rather have someone like tdAdonis, who didn't post AT ALL, than you. Kurumi is forever banned from any games I host, and I will not be participating in any games he signs up in. Originally, I wasn't going to include gtrsrs in this. I figured, maybe he picked up on something small and thats what his tunnel is about. However, after his personal attacks and general douche-baggery, gtrsrs is permanently banned from all my games as well. To the rest of you, ggwp! Treadmill, I feel bad for you - you made a bad read and it cost you your life. Pyo, you played a really solid game there - I found it amusing when Kurumi turned on you. Apprudds, GGQ and I agree that you were a really good scum player - not to take anything away from the rest of my team, but Pruds really stood out. There are two reasons the Mafia lost this game. 1) Modkills, and thats just the player's faults - its absolutely inexcusable not to vote, especially if you're mafia. 2)Lynch miscounts. If we'd had a proper count of the votes on me, we would have split our votes and or maybe even completely bussed me. Instead, we thought we could save me... and that threw off everything. If the vote count had been correct, and we hadn't gotten modkilled so much - this would have been a VERY different game. BTW, to the vigi who shot Jackal - thanks xD | ||
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