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On May 14 2011 11:35 dreamflower wrote:
Isn't it a little early to be arguing over role distribution? Right now, everyone is just picking numbers and reading over the role descriptions. If anything, we shouldn't be sharing too much information over roles or numbers, so that the Mafia has as little information as possible and can't manipulate the draft order to get (or worse, get assigned) a specific position/role.
The thing with my denial plan is it shouldn't matter if mafia or town lands the role, and my fear is that if I wait till the draft order comes out the players in those positions will oppose it simply because they feel like those roles wouldn't be as much "fun" as the alternatives. However if you think it wise to wait to discuss it I suppose I can be agreeable to that. Also there has been no discussion of what numbers are being picked, and I want it to remain that way, as this way we increase clashes and disrupt the mafia, which can only be good for the town.
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Fair enough, we can do that, I am now making a post breaking down the roles into five categories, KP role, Information Roles, Hit Blocking/retribution, Anti-Town and Miscellaneous
I also ranked them in order of perceived usefulness, 1 being the most useful. I'll discuss role synergies in a later post, some roles fall into multiple categories, I rated everything with two numbers, A Threat rating and a town power , the red number is how good it is for the mafia, the other how good it is for the town.
+ Show Spoiler [KP Roles] +
71 America - repeated shot day-vig, in the hands of the town almost as good as a double lynch every day, much potential to cause harm, but since its obvious who is using it its not too bad for us in the hands of the mafia
2 2CPR Doctor - a quirky compulsive vigilante
4 3Kingmaker - distributes out kills, like America huge potential for destruction, although not as good as nukes, and is slightly better for the mafia
5 4 Vigilante - 2 night KP
9 5 Chuiu Jack - 1 vigi shot, more useful than the day vigi, more dangerous too
1 6 Assassin - devastating in the hands of the mafia, as they can always guess town aligned and be right, since the ability is anonymous it is a free kp for the mafia every day, while in the hands of the town it is much less powerful, better then the day vigi because it is unable to kill innocents
10 7 Capitalist - 1 kill, role checks could be nice for either side, but not terribly useful
11 8Emperor -chooses a day 1 lynch, thats one KP, not a real must have though... double lynch is nice I guess
12 9Day Vigilante - 1 revealed KP
3 10 Bad Santa - Really powerful in the hands of the mafia, not so much in the hands of the town, in the hands of the mafia it equates two extra kills, in the hands of the town its pretty bad
6 11 Vote Rigger - 1 kp in the form of controlling the lynch, denies the town its own KP, it contains a double lynch which is good for the town
9 12Admiral Ackbar - huge destructive potential, if the mafia need to break a medic protect you can count on them using this.
10 13 Suicide Bomber - like the AA except only works at night, potentially destructive
14 14 Mad Hatter - subjective kp, not worrisome in the hands of the mafia, might be ok in the hands of the town
13 15Mafia 4 Hatter - like the mad hatter, except that it can suicide, 1 suicidal KP I guess
5-7? 9-10?Bomber Man - this role is too quirky to be considered too powerful, but it could unleash destruction if used correctly, I'm not sure of how to rank it.
3? 3?Hooker - interesting mechanic, a delayed set of KP, not sure how to treat it to be honest, its like compulsive vigi almost tentative ratings of 3/3
That was KP, working on the rest of the sets now, this will probably take some time
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Frag, this is what I get for not reading carefully, I assumed the vote rigger simply determined the lynch result, not that it controlled everyones votes. If thats how it works then that is an absurdly broken combination. I like it, its going to put the mafia in a rough spot by day 3 if we can make it work.
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No sane scum is going to choose AoC, especially considering they have no way of knowing if anyone is going to be picking recruiting mason, which as far as I can tell should be low on the list of town picks, I agree with what ace said earlier, we should be focusing on picking up as many information roles as possible and only then on protection/miscellaneous roles. If we aren't going for a denial strategy (and it seems most people don't want to go for one) then I can subscribe to lynching anyone who takes those roles, since it serves as a deterrent to keep scum from picking them.
All that said I still think we need to find some way to neutralize the threat that the Theif represents to town power roles, as if mafia takes it they can use it to secure any power in the top five, which is obviously not good for us. Anyone have any thoughts as to how to deny the theif, other than assigning a seed number to take it? (since no one likes that plan -__-)
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Thats hilarious, I picked [17][2] and ended up in the top 6. ^_^
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So, are we going to try for the voterigger + list checks or no? And if we are, do we want to assign who picks those roles so the Detective can be medic proted?
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Kav, you missed me with [17][2]
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My mayor issue with this "select roles for spots" deal now is the fact that the draft order is already out, meaning that the mafia is free to propose whatever they wish, and land whatever juicy roles they want. At this point I don't think we have a choice but to go on individual choice and hope for the best, since the denial strategy was shot down when it could have made a difference.
I am going to be taking either an inba role or an anti-kp role.
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On May 16 2011 19:12 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Therefore I'm going to scope out suspects based on small posting with a clear sign of having interests elsewhere during the drafting and role picking stages.
I'm more used to chaoser and deconduo being much more active, regardless of alignment. These two are PMing, or on some IRC/forum chatting it up with scumbuddies about what their schemes are. I'll be putting my vote on chaoser.
##Vote Chaoser My interests are currently with interviews so you'll have to excuse me the last few days. Last interview will be on Tuesday so I will be 100% free after that. That being said, I was busy talking with tnkt about the impending rapture on TLMafia IRC last night so thats my scheme =[ to survive it. http://www.raptureready.com/Here, you can be ready too. ##vote GMarshal. Y U SAY CHUIU JACK IS PROMAFIA?
Because I was tired and I saw it had two kills? I didn't really think about it that hard to be honest, I was like "its like the vigi, so it helps mafia about as much as taking a vigi, but better because it takes away DT checks from the town, its better for the mafia then a regular vigi then"
Again, if anything it shows I shouldn't be posting when not properly rested, I also made stupid assumptions about the assassin and said America was good for the town because it served as a double lynch, so yeah, I had some questionable (read *stupid*) logic in there.
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Also I think it would be best if we all refrained from using the word gambino...
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On May 16 2011 23:41 Incognito wrote:
Whoever is the vote rigger should rig the votes into 4 sections of roughly equal sizes. Try to spread out the people with the same numbers onto different lists.
Agreed, if we have the Mafia II detective (and we should) then it makes it really easy for him to use his role appropriately, it also keeps the rig from showing up as a nasty surprise later.
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On May 17 2011 00:33 Kavdragon wrote:
Also, while I disagree with lynching GMarshal today, on the basis that his true colors WILL show pretty obviously with time, and while I think his behavior is suspicious, he can be a valuable asset to the town.
I have held this opinion for a while now: I don't like lynching potentially valuable players day 1. Day 1 is easy to mess up, it's not worth the risk. I'm sure there are better targets out there, like, for instance, Node. I'll post more on that later though.
While I'm glad you don't want to lynch me, I have to ask, what part of my behavior is "suspicious"?
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On May 17 2011 01:09 Barundar wrote:@GM I can't talk for others, but I noticed that you suggested a plan that involves #6 to pick thief, but when you end up #6 yourself, and people assign you thief, you respond with: Show nested quote +My mayor issue with this "select roles for spots" deal now is the fact that the draft order is already out, meaning that the mafia is free to propose whatever they wish, and land whatever juicy roles they want. I find it curious that when your own proposition corresponds to the one you get offered, you shoot it down as mafia influenced.
Not at all, but I stated that a denial plan would only be useful if we all agreed to it, I was under the impression that the town decision was "If someone takes an anti-town role they will be lynched" so I followed the plan that it seemed we had agreed on. Had we all agreed to follow my denial plan I would have gone with it.
@Kav and me laying low, the thing is the moment I busted out a plan I thought was decent I got put on the "Ignore this player" list by one person and called bad by another three, there are a lot of vet players here and I'm out of my usual turf, as asking questions to generate town activity clearly isn't going to be an important part of getting the town to work together, and prodding inactives is not going to be that important either with all the experienced players in this game.
@Kav on the vote rigger, I still think it helps the Mafia II detective a lot if we split the town into four camps, as it means he dosn't have to worry about lists that overlap and such, it also eliminates the "threat" of the vote rigger, so I think its a good idea to use him today.
I think thats everything I wanted to address, other than the fact that chaoser isn't being as active as I'm used to seeing him, which for now merits a FoS.
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On May 17 2011 03:53 tnkted wrote:
...Since GM isn't doing it...
Its time for some GM style pressure!
Chaoser, deconduo, and Caller: who do you think the 3 most suspicious players are, and why?
GM: you said that the reason you aren't acting like a townie (as you usually do) is because you're intimidated by the amount of experienced players that are playing. Why didn't you act intimidated in sleeper cell mafia, in which ace, bum, rean, and several other experienced players were playing?
Different levels, the only "vet" I was uncomfortable with/hadn't played with before was Ace, in this roster of players the majority are experienced people I haven't played with in the past. Incog, fw, dreamflower, etc, are all players I know to be excellent, and who I don't really have a meta read on because they haven't played in a while, so I really don't know how to handle them. Maybe intimidation is not the word, I just don't really have a handle on the situation yet. Also I'm terrified of running afoul of Ver's "don't spam" rule, so I'm trying to make each one of my posts at least somewhat substantial, rather than replying to every post I see/
Also because I'm in the mood, I'll answer your questions.
1.) Chaoser- this might seem OMGUS, but his vote on me is entirely out of character, chaoser never just goes for an "easy" vote, yet he jumped on me for what I see as poor reasoning, something is off
2.) Node- none of his posts stand out/are memorable to me, usually thats the sign of scum.
3.) Fishball- "I'll do as I please" is the perfect reasoning for mafia to do whatever they please without explanation, and is inherently anti-town, I know sometimes it can be a drag to explain to the town why whatever it is you are doing is obviously good, but refusal to do so is also the sign of scum who don't want to justify their actions.
Let me turn the question around on you though tnkted, who are your top two town reads and why? Who in the top six picks do you think is most likely to be mafia and why?
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On May 17 2011 04:27 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Chaoser- this might seem OMGUS, but his vote on me is entirely out of character, chaoser never just goes for an "easy" vote, yet he jumped on me for what I see as poor reasoning, something is off I just did this in XXXIX on Irish lol...why all the sweating? People place votes on people all the time. Look at Incog's on Kurumi. I didn't even attach a reason behind my vote, a mere meme was written. How can you see poor reasoning when there is no real reasoning lol? Overreaction much?
Not at all, I don't mind being voted on, I just don't remember you doing this kind of stuff ^_^
What bothered me was that, the lack of reasoning, if it was just a pressure vote then I understand perfectly, I thought you had an actual grievance with my categorization of the jack 
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On May 17 2011 04:34 chaoser wrote:
you even hosted XXXIX...you said before that it was due to poor reasoning, but now you've changed it to lack of reasoning, which one is it? You've played with me before to know when I actually vote someone I try and make a case against them, not just "Y U SAY CHUIU JACK IS PROMAFIA?"
Kinda weird that you would think it's anything but pressure
Which is why I was weirded out, I was like "Is he really voting for me because I said that the jack is a good pick for the mafia? wtf is he smoking?" Chalk it up to whatever you wish, at this point there's not much to discuss here other than I though that you were reading much more into one of my post than you should, not realizing it wasn't a serious accusations. I felt it was kind of like when sand decided in Experimental Mafia II that me asking questions was 100% scummy, no matter what I said. Either way I feel like this discussion is derailing us from actual scum hunting.
I'd like it if you answered the questions that tnkted asked earlier.
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On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote:
Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"?
I notice you voted incognito, is there a reason behind that?
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On May 17 2011 05:27 Kavdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:05 Radfield wrote:
It's possible that the reason Incognito is proposing his vote rigging plan is because he took the M2DT role and wants the vote rigger to follow his plan. Either way, that's for the vote rigger to decide, so there's no point in discussing it.
As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense.
Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. In addition we need to worry about the VI. That would be a popular role as I see it, and If someone up high didn't pick it. In general I think we need to be careful about lynching the higher ups if not altogether avoiding it for at least the first day.
We don't need to worry about the VI in the sense that its irrelevant if we lynch him as we don't lose, its obviously better that we lynch mafia, but if someone is acting scummy we should not refrain from lynching them out of fear that they are the VI, in my opinion at least. On lynching the higher ups, again I think its a matter of how sure we are, if we are pretty sure someone is scum then I don't think we need to worry about them being a "power role" as long as we believe them them to be mafia. At the very least we can start to build cases against them for tomorrow, even if we decide to avoid lynching them for today.
@Radfeild and clashing, I think it best if we assume that the mafia would not *intentionally* clash, thus if we find a mafia in a group of numbers its less than likely that they have another team member in the same number cluster. I like Kav's current idea, while he looks into wiggles I'll look into KillerSOS
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KillerSOS
So, I did a search of all his posts in order to find any posts that were relevant to analyze, looking for something juicy. There is exactly nothing, he has posted nothing but one liners. I'll pull out the ones that seem relevant, but theres *nothing* there.
Here are some examples of his great contributions
+ Show Spoiler [great contributions!] +On May 14 2011 10:28 KillerSOS wrote:
Well I'm going with two mid range numbers.
Dare you to guess them. Completely irrelevant post, also not true he picked [5] IIRC, which is not really midrange, usless post On May 15 2011 17:03 KillerSOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 16:57 Barundar wrote:
[13] [1]
I'm in the line of fire again... god dammit. I like how 13 was near the top. Interesting. Contribution = 0 On May 16 2011 16:15 KillerSOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 16:12 Ace wrote:
Both of them have [9][x] so the only thing to notice is that they both picked the same number or unique numbers. Since I'm right above both of them with [9][11] it would be in his best interest to ask Chezinu what numbers he picked. That way he'd know if that him and Kurumi picked the same number (if Chezinu picked [9][11] also) or just won't know if it's unique (if Chezinu picked [9][x] or [4][x]).
Either way it wouldn't matter because nothing about number picks could tell you about alignment yet. I don't think FW noticed anything and instead was just asking what the second number pick is like all of us have been. I also believe that clashes in numbers won't be that useful this early in the game. I'm sure that the mafia are smart enough to grab some top slots, while at the same time randomizing the other half of their members. First game relevant post, and all it does is shoot down a decent idea, without actually contributing anything, bravo, so far my "lurker" radar is going nuts. On May 17 2011 03:10 KillerSOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 17:50 Scamp wrote:On May 16 2011 17:12 Node wrote:On May 16 2011 16:17 Scamp wrote:
Also are you suggesting we should be looking at at least one person who picked a low first number? This looked like a more general question. Yes, I realize there's a "you" there, but a) it's relevant to how we collectively proceed and b) I don't see what you have to gain by having a specific person answer it. I think it's fairly obvious that I have suspicions of KillerSOS so I wanted him to explain himself, is all. I think it's fairly obvious that you are just spitting out nonsense. Would you like to explain yourself? People are accusing me, quickly demand an explanation of why they think that my 8 posts are all contentless one liners!
KillerSOS is lurking, and I've made my stance on lurkers clear in the past, hang them all!
##Vote KillerSOS
Get in here and contribute or hang by the neck till dead, I'd rather you did the former, but if you refuse I have no issue hanging you for it.
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Dreamflower
I would like to point out a lurker who should be doing better, a supposedly great player who is simply lurking and not contributing. Dreamflower has a grand total of five posts in this thread, none of which contain original ideas or any content worth analzying, since its only 5 posts I decided I'd include them all here
On May 14 2011 10:49 dreamflower wrote:
Just checking in to say that I have sent in my numbers and at the moment, I have no idea which role(s) I'd pick.
A standard "don't modkill me" post, along with a demonstration of indecisiveness, +1 scumpoint
On May 14 2011 11:35 dreamflower wrote:
Isn't it a little early to be arguing over role distribution? Right now, everyone is just picking numbers and reading over the role descriptions. If anything, we shouldn't be sharing too much information over roles or numbers, so that the Mafia has as little information as possible and can't manipulate the draft order to get (or worse, get assigned) a specific position/role.
This post has a positive and a negative, on the positive side, its all good stuff, I disagree with her about discussing role distribution, but it looks like a solid post. Until you realize someone else posted this first and this is a rewording of it... scummy in my eyes at least.
On May 15 2011 13:37 dreamflower wrote:
I picked [4][1], and now I can see why I ended up at #16. I'm sorry if you guys were hoping to be higher up on the draft order, though I must say I'm kind of glad that I ended up in the middle. I don't mind getting a slightly-less-controversial blue role, hopefully.
"don't mind me guys, I just want to skirt under the radar, avoiding attention if at all possible"
On May 16 2011 14:20 dreamflower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 13:45 infinitestory wrote:Just a random thought: Should people claim if they asked for a role and didn't get it? (Have people done this in past PYPs?) Hmmm. I think that depends on the role that you were trying to get and missed on, especially if they're really anti-town. If you requested the traitor role or the Caller godfather role and didn't get it, then you should definitely say so. Then we know those roles are in the game and have some sense of where they may be. On the other hand, if you missed out on a role that the Mafia would love to snipe, such as one of the detective or medic roles, then your claim would hurt the town more than it would help.
"Let me state the obvious some more" its not a bad point, but it seems kind of evident, to me at least, not scummy per-se but when taken in context with the other posts it raises my eyebrows even more.
On May 17 2011 00:27 dreamflower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 17:36 bumatlarge wrote:
Well, also I believe we can rely heavily that a lot of mafia in the beginning will be rather quiet unless they are superactive, because you will want to spend every moment you get discussing exactly what you are doing with your team. Therefore I'm going to scope out suspects based on small posting with a clear sign of having interests elsewhere during the drafting and role picking stages. The offenders of this I find to be: I do apologize for not having posted a great deal since the game started. It's been a while since my last game of Mafia, and I feel extremely rusty and deeply unwilling to just post for the sake of posting when I really don't know what I'm talking about. (Admittedly, Ver's crazy setup hasn't helped either. Plan-concocting has never been my strength, and I can't get my head around the long list of possible and possibly imbalanced roles.) Thus, I've started reading over PYP 3 to see what did and didn't work in a previous PYP game. Hopefully that'll acclimate me more toward playing PYP Mafia games and help me contribute better. More of this "ignore me, I'm confused" and "its been so long since I played mafia" its making excuses to justify lurking, and it sets off every alarm in my head. If figuring out the setup is not your strong point, you should then be concentrating on scumhunting, not everyone can figure out the magical combination of roles to win the game, but everyone can catch scum In the meantime, I will respond to this: Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:43 Ace wrote:
Anyone else that didn't claim numbers should soon. I'm surprised no one has made a big deal about number clashing yet like in PYP 1. With so many unique numbers at the top and a bunch of clashes from 16 on down I think focusing our investigations into the clashing sets is a good start.
We somewhat have an idea of what should be in the top slots so if any bad actions that were already discussed happen we know where to look. There are a lot of numbers clashing, for sure. Considering the Mafia can coordinate with each other to avoid their numbers clashing and being bumped down to the bottom, where they're less likely to grab the most valuable roles, I think at least half the people who chose 4 and 9 (the numbers that clashed the most often) are probably town. In a setup like this, I doubt the Mafia would want to be pushed toward the bottom by picking the same numbers as each other. Again, this has been said, and its kind of obvious, the mafia will not intentionally clash, this is a subtle attempt to clear herself, after all if she were mafia she wouldn't clash with her buddies... Still its a true statement, but its trying to *look* like a contribution without contributing
(long post so comments in bold)
Veredict: Lurking Scum dreamflower needs to step up her game, as she has yet to add anything to the town.
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