EPTThe correct response to tunneling, and somebody more experienced can correct me if I'm wrong, is to respond once and then ignore it. Not get into a "yes you are" "No i'm not" argument.
TL Mafia XXXIX - Page 31
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Varpulis
United States2517 Posts
The correct response to tunneling, and somebody more experienced can correct me if I'm wrong, is to respond once and then ignore it. Not get into a "yes you are" "No i'm not" argument. | ||
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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:04 VarpuliS wrote: Look at this post. Cthsazsa quotes you, responds to your post by saying: Your response is in the third person, even though he was asking about you. lol. Oh, I interpreted his post as referring to and defending his responses to jackal, so in my posts "he" was referring to jackal. | ||
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:08 Cthsazsa wrote: I'm still confused as to how I'm scum. This is only making it worse. You've addressed the accusations. If there was no weight behind them, then just move on until they accuse you with something new. Try to scumhunt instead of defending yourself. Only scum worry about defending themselves. Town worry about finding scum. | ||
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PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
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PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
But if the argument is dropped, doesn't that make you look more suspicious? | ||
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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:13 Cthsazsa wrote: elmizzt you didn't answer my questions. varpulis answered your question. I think it was fairly well stated. | ||
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PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
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Varpulis
United States2517 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:12 elmizzt wrote: Oh, I interpreted his post as referring to and defending his responses to jackal, so in my posts "he" was referring to jackal. Ah, I see. nvm then, I get what you were talking about. It's past midnight, and I have classes tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now, I'll see you all tomorrow. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
Irish_punk13 On May 05 2011 12:19 kitaman27 wrote: I just finished skimming through Irish's game as mafia. Mainly I just read his posts, rather than the entire game, but the first thing that stood out was he clearly wasn't a noob. He seemed to have a pretty good idea of what he was doing. The main difference between that game and this one so far is his thread presence. On UG, he was one of the more active posters and played a pro-town game (enough so to draw a day one medic save). When pushing a lynch, he got pretty aggressive. As for how he responded to pressure, it probably wasn't the best game to gauge. The scum team had a flawless victory so there really wasn't much for him to worry about. He did do a decent job of blending in though, as this was posted in post-game: Looking back, I think his overreaction was probably overstated. He came off worried, but that alone isn't really enough to make him guilty. Of his posts so far, this one feels the most off. I must have missed all the great posts by Kurumi. Most of them were either spam or left me pretty confused. Not sure how he gets a town read off that. Jumping on AO seems pretty convenient, but at the same time, he was apparently "joking" about a policy lynch. I would like to hear more from him in the next 24 hours. If he doesn't handle pressure well, then it would be beneficial to try to force a slip out of him. The other person who I would like to here more from is chaos13. After his weird guilty post about defending irish, he has posted mostly questions and one-liners. I'm not gonna take my vote off of irish_punk until he responds to the pressure on him right now. Maybe he didn't do a conclusive slip, or maybe he did actually overreact and realized it (or his buddies told him) and tried to compensate with later posts ignoring the issue. What is more interesting at this point is that after this post On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you. which a LOT of people have pointed out is weird, he has only bothered to make this one post On May 05 2011 06:30 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, I saw that Amber quoted Chaoser asking why I acted the way I did when I posted the link to UG. I didn't mean to come off as being really defensive or anything, I was just trying to give you evidence that I do play with those guys on UG and make it clear that I didn't want to waste any more time on it. I'm keeping my vote as is for now because I haven't found anything that sounds more suspicious than AirbladeOrange. I'm going to go focus on my other game for now, and I'll get back to this in a bit. Ignoring pressure and staying away from the thread when your name comes up is optimal scum play in my experience. I don't want to reward his inactivity by changing my vote at this point. In any case, thanks for doing some extra leg-work on this one kita  Lyter In other news, this guy is doing the modkill-avoidance-threshold posting. Plus downplaying himself/newb card. Another decent lynch in case I change my mind about irish. On May 04 2011 23:54 Lyter wrote: This is my first game of Mafia on a forum, I've played quite a lot of the Mafia custom on SC2 so I know how it works but I'd consider myself a newbie in a big forum game like this. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:44 Beneather wrote: Really looking forward to playing this game :D lol. Going to be extremely active (: *Cough Cough* You have three times as many posts pre-game then you do once the game has actually started >.< | ||
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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On May 05 2011 13:22 VarpuliS wrote: Ah, I see. nvm then, I get what you were talking about. It's past midnight, and I have classes tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now, I'll see you all tomorrow. nighty varp | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
: @ Chaoser – I just read through it again and it has sort of a sharp tone. It’s really late so I can’t be bothered to go back and make it nicer. Just know that it isn’t meant to be a personal attack on your character. Honestly I would have liked to stay quiet a little bit longer to see how it progressed but since you guys are demanding it, here goes. This essay brought to you by Redtooth, the person who got attacked the last time he made a longpost. Warning, very long: FoS: Chaoser Reason 1: The Irish Lynch Push Honestly, let’s be serious: the Irish argument is a joke. There really isn’t enough of a basis to keep pushing it and it has only wasted massive amounts of time that could have been spent doing other stuff. Obviously not many people have been convinced, even though the reasoning behind this is pretty depressing in and of itself. Back to his strategy. I initially thought that it was just a prolonged Minimalist Approach, something I assumed he was doing ever since he hopped onto my RVS vote. He seemed to have dropped it after a certain point (which was fine with me since it was getting nowhere) but Irish suddenly appeared again as top suspect in a later post making it very clear that Chaoser is still actively pursuing a lynch on Irish. Since Irish can’t be bothered to defend himself (more on that later), let’s examine Chaoser’s main arguments point-by-point on his behalf (I will paraphrase for the sake of brevity). Point 1: Irish had an odd reaction to our combined presses. First off, that’s not a scumtell. When two people with Ghost icons start attacking you while acting like they know what they’re doing, you pay attention. As a matter of fact, would it not have been more odd if he didn’t react the way he did? I mean who is comfortable with two “vets” pressing you off the bat, regardless of how much support there is to those presses? I’m curious as to what a normal, expected reaction would have been.Points 2 and 3: Irish creates empty content then chainsaw defends Kurumi by attacking AO. I’ll admit, I was pretty surprised at how much traction Irish’s argument got. However, I wouldn’t call it a “chainsaw defense” as much as it is a desperate attempt to look like you’re scumhunting. Irish didn’t have many choices in this position as he was expected to “hunt scum” and produce new and interesting content. He couldn’t accuse himself (duh). On the other hand, you would have spun an accusation if he jumped on the Kurumi wagon. Besides those two, there literally is nothing to go off of up to that point. This scenario is somewhat less likely so I won’t hold Chaoser as accountable for these 2 points.Point 4: “He is wishy-washy” See above. There is a sudden expectation on him to create novel contributions to the thread and this honestly seems like a very half-hearted attempt to fulfill those expectations. And you’re right it wasn’t an EBWODP. It was an EBWOP. It’s a picky counterargument to a nitpicky argument. What difference does it make? If anything, it perfectly fits his character of noobtown.Redtooth’s Defense, Point 5: He is very uninterested in the game right now You’ve made it very clear that he’s not going to slip your grasp without a serious defense. So why hasn’t he posted one? Because he’s uninterested. Scum is way more likely to fight back til the bitter end (see KillerSOS below) rather than just semi-abandoning a game. It’s not like he’s trying to lurk through it either since his bandwagon seemed to be the biggest at one point.Now you may be saying, “Hey redtooth! This looks more like a defense of Irish than a FoS on Chaoser.” Well the problem is that either Chaoser should have recognized these or he did recognize but chose to ignore them. Since he seems to be a solid player so far, I’m leaning towards the latter and that is the scummiest action exhibited by anybody in this game so far (essentially actively and knowingly promoting a lynch on obvtown). Everyone, consider the following questions as objectively as possible: Is it very possible that Irish is simply a noobtown? Yes Is it very possible that Irish’s “chainsaw defense” was actually just a noobtown analysis? Yes Is it very possible that Irish’s lack of defense is in his lack of interest in staying alive? Yes Is it very possible that Chaoser is tunneling, intentional or otherwise? Yes Reason 2: Active Lurking Town has been giving Chaoser a LOT of credit for “contributing so much”. However, upon closer examination a lot of them are either logistical posts (request to focus, poke on lurkers, answer to questions, etc), offtopic, or pushing one of his four FoS. They all look good but break them down and there is very little to be had. As shown by one of the posts quoted above, his attention seems to be spread over four people atm: Irish (primary), Kurumi, KillerSOS, Sinani. I’ve already stated why I think Irish isn’t realscum but let’s address the others as well. Kurumi is that guy. He is the prototypical hyperactive townie who expended all that energy and lost interest midway through game after being pressured. Honestly, when was the last time someone so blatantly scum actually flipped scum? It’s pretty shocking and discouraging to see Kurumi leading in votes. However, it’s a super easy bandwagon to contribute to since there is a wealth of incriminating behavior and an easy target for active lurking. The FoS on Sinani is based off of one sentence that could easily have been due to him simply not reading the thread with much detail (very much within the realm of possibility since there’s so much clutter). Another easy-to-press person that was pressed. Relatively recent development so we’ll see how it goes. KillerSOS is actually a great lead (he’s near the top of my list). However, it’s odd that both KillerSOS and Irish are on the list since they are handling the pressure in totally opposite manners (one totally passive, one full aggressive). Odd behavior isn’t always scum behavior, something he should know very well. ANOTHER easy-to-press person to press, regardless of the merit in the argument. I won’t FoS Killer for now since it wouldn’t make sense for one to be on both him and Chaoser at this point. And by having 4 people FoS’d this early, Chaoser’s also implying that he’s found over half the scum team 36 hours into the game. I don’t know if it is part of his gamestyle to just mass accuse but all it does is create unfocused chatter as attention is split between 10 suspects and lines of arguments get muddled or skimmed over. You’re a liar if you can say that it is easy to focus on what’s happening in the thread right now. Ultimately, Chaoser’s actions haven’t been enough to place a vote on him yet. But since he seems to be steadily increasing his voice in town, I suggest you guys definitely approach his statements more warily then has happened thus far. From what’s been said in the thread, it seems like he played pretty well as town the previous game but that trust shouldn’t necessarily be carried into this game. He may be a great town member but it is just as likely that he is scum. I mean it’s gotten so ridiculous that players are now making blanket threats against those who dare even challenge the great Chaoser. What’s even more surprising is nobody has even said anything about that challenge. That isn’t to say I FoS’d him just to get you guys to pay attention. I genuinely do think it is suspicious that a “vet” would pursue these weird lynches and FoS. Logistical posts are neutraltells (WHY WONT YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS?) as are offtopic stuff. That leaves just what I perceive to be a real subtle case of active lurking. I’ll watch how it continues to play out and I suggest the rest of town do the same. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
Is there a possiblilty that the US didn't actually go to the Moon? Yes While those are extreme analogies to your questions, the logical fallacy behind them are the same. While there is a CHANCE that it is possible, there is a BIGGER and more well supported CHANCE that Irish's scummy actions are just that...scummy actions. Your defense is essentially a roundabout stretch. Instead of thinking about it in a straight forward manner (Scummy actions=scummy player), you put forward this more complicated explanation: "It's not that he's acting scummy cause he's scummy. It's cause he's inactive and disinterested in the game." Aren't you basically making excuses for players acting scummy? You say we should not waste time on this. So how would we go about catching scum and not "wasting massive amounts of time"? You've yet to put forward anything to focus on (Saying you FoS me but that we shouldn't vote me just yet) Let's be truthful here, this post was motivated by a desire to discredit me and paint me in a negative light, not because you ACTUALLY think the case against Irish is weak. You first thought, hmm, I don't like Chaoser's posting and then added on this weak argument on Irish to try to give it legitimacy. If we were to use your logic, we could hand wave anyone's actions as "not interested so he made a shitty argument that was not only based upon false premises, but then immediately started a bandwagon." and no mafia would ever be caught. In regards to active lurking, do you understand what the concept of lurking even means? It means giving useless information and not actually taking a stance on anything. I've taken multiple stances, called people out, tried to promote inactivity amongst the vets, and put pressure on many people. I've helped create a pro-town environment. What have you done? Nothing. Sinani's "analysis" post is the most contradictory post I've ever seen. He says he's suspicious of AO but gives no reasons why and then votes Kurumi. When I catch him on it, he says that he forgot and then says Kurumi has been analytical and doesn't give up. I've been analytical and aggressive (both, by the way, which are generally POSITIVE), why didn't he vote me? Even if he's not reading the thread with much detail, to say he's voting for someone due to them CONTRIBUTING TO THE CONVERSATION WITH ANALYSIS is ridiculous. To try to say a complete logically fallicy is due to inactivity is just WRONG in so many ways. Either way, I neither said I was definitely sure sinani was mafia nor did I say that I had found half of the mafia team. I made a LIST of those that I found suspicious. The people on that list will continue to be evaluated and either be kept on or taken off as events arise. My attention has been very focused (Irish) and the rest are me responding to things people say, as they say them. Should I only respond to issues regarding Irish and after that's resolved, to start noticing other things? No. Your argument to try to defend Irish is weak and your true motive to discredit me is seen. I completely support your stance that people should approach me more warily though but I disagree with the way you have gone about doing it (weak argument, convoluted logic). I still support the Irish lynch though I see a lot of people are for the Kurumi lynch. Either way, they are tied to each other via the chainsaw defense into vote switch of support that if one flips red, the other is sure to flip red. At this point I am 70% sure Irish is red. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
Chaoser has seemed pretty damned protown to me so far. By that I mean, pushing inactives, challenging people, poking for reactions, in general fostering discussion in a pro-town manner. Sure, he could be doing an awesome scum performance. But keep in mind a few things: 1) it's tricky to get a good day 1 lynch. I think amber is scum, but there's nowhere near enough evidence yet. 2) Irish is not 'obvtown' in my book. His initial reaction may be understandable, but completely avoiding the thread since then is, as I mentioned before, optimal scum play and in my opinion not likely a new-ish town play. Once upon a time (experimental mini mafia), RoL caught me early with a 'scumtell' that was weak (except he actually got me -_-), but I just disappeared from the thread on the advice of my scum buddies and dodged the lynch. 3) day isn't over, we have yet to see what the final vote is and how the lynch flips. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot or even most of the current votes change, including those on irish right now. Also, kinda weird that you would write an essay on day 1 FOS'ing one of the better players in this game when, as you admit, your case doesn't warrant a vote. In my experience, TL towns do not need any help mistrusting leader figures... so yeah, don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. last thing: On May 05 2011 02:14 redtooth wrote: @Rising_Phoenix, Kitmanan - While you may not need the advice given from the guide, it's pretty apparent that some players are newer than others. Just because you personally don't find it helpful doesn't mean it may not benefit the remainder of the town to some extent. Once again, I made the post after I saw people stumbling over themselves reacting to the RVS vote. It's not an attempt to impose my will on the town but rather a reminder of what we should be keeping in mind as we continue playing. Yes taking into account experience does help to a certain degree. There are plenty of scumtells that look very similar to noobtells. Why would it hurt to have a reference in place, especially since not much other discussion is happening? If you need another explanation, I also didn't like the way the RVS was going so I went to RQS and both have generated decent discussion and activity. I didn't take a look at the last game but if you guys lynched Kavdragon solely because he was trying to be helpful then... yeah. You can disagree with strategies and call people out for them but try not to discourage helping attitudes. wtf is RQS/RVS? | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
-Takuna still hasn't posted. There is still most of a day left, so we're actually doing pretty damn good on activity. Gratz everyone. | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:29 Lyter wrote: I'm not really buying all these random accusations flying around on day 1, maybe its just me, but I'd much rather see a night through so we actually have something to work with, at this point it is just pure guesswork imo. Guesswork backed up by pretty solid analysis. (like I said, up all night writing a paper  ) | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:29 Lyter wrote: I'm not really buying all these random accusations flying around on day 1, maybe its just me, but I'd much rather see a night through so we actually have something to work with, at this point it is just pure guesswork imo. It might be guesswork but we still get information out of it, information that will be important once the first lynch flips. Also we don´t have a "no lynch" option, someone HAS to die during day 1. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On May 05 2011 16:54 aidnai wrote: offtopic: -Takuna still hasn't posted. There is still most of a day left, so we're actually doing pretty damn good on activity. Gratz everyone. Is Takuna the only one who hasn´t posted yet since the first day-post, or just one of them? | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
On May 05 2011 18:02 Forumite wrote: It might be guesswork but we still get information out of it, information that will be important once the first lynch flips. Also we don´t have a "no lynch" option, someone HAS to die during day 1. Ah didn't realise someone had to die, time to do some thinking  | ||
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