Oh my, what do we have here
My first post of the game. My intro into the wonderful world of MafiaActually I don't get the DT role that often. I don't really like the role that much because most people are terrible when they get it.
Me telling Yellow Ink that he was wrong and I don't roll DT that much. I even tell him most people are terrible at it.
I think you guys are makign a mistake. Just because a team has two people doesn't mean they will generate more or less content, or that sharing a role means they will act a certain way. I think almost everyone is going to play standard because sharing a role doesn't imply a change in posting behavior.
Me discussing the effects of Team play vs individual play.
I don't even mind seeing bandwagons this early since if YellowInk gets lynched and flips town the DT know exactly where to look.
However I do have a problem with bandwagons formed off of stupid logic. Looking at Bill's arguments against YI they are pretty terrible. Saying that since we are out of the RVS (blatantly false), him voting for bumatlarge makes no sense. Doesn't help that him and Chezinu are typing in morse code in the thread when there isn't anything to breadcrumb on Day 1 of this setup. To kick things off I'm voting for them. I want everyone's opinion on this: - Are we voting on the most useless people? Imo we should because inactivity should not be a problem. With the 2 worst players on the same team I view it as getting rid of distractions early.
My first instance of pointing out Bill's logic was faulty against YI. He falsely claimed we were out of the RVS and voted for BAL. Him and Chez were typing in morse code when they can just simply PM each other. Of course you think it's their style when it was clearly spam which multiple players commented on. I even said they can't breadcrumb anything when there is nothing to breadcrumb on Day 1. Notice I even ask are we voting on the most useless people because inactivity should not be problem - throwing away the typical lets lynch inactives idea. Of course you'll say this isn't much of a plan.
How so. Please give us an actual logical breakdown of how you arrived at this conclusion. Every game you and your ally post nonsense and get away with it because everyone thinks you are useless, ignoring the fact you may be scum.
My response to Chezinu when he made the ridiculous claim that T1 has to be DT or Mafia. This was one of my earliest flags on calling them for faulty logic.
I've said that you were useless for like what, the past 8 months now? This isn't a new opinion at all.
Chezinu asked me why my opinion of him changed and I answered his question by letting him know I thought he sucked for a while now.
That doesn't mean it's them telling on themselves that they are blue. Both of them aren't typical dumb players that ask questions leading to them being outted. Besides just because someone talks about a power role is not a good basis on putting them in the Mafia or Blue camp. Otherwise for all the games you've played you would have a better scum hunting rank don't you think?
Chezinu claimed that players discussing blue roles tend to be blue and I said that's not typically true. I also point out that T1 wasn't a team of players unwise enough to do that.
Agreed. I also think the way it works is that Teams check Teams, not players checking players. So checking 1 person out a 3 person team isn't really a significant advantage or disadvantage.
Me agreeing with DCLXVI about how DT checks possibly work.
L and BM: an OMGUS vote doesn't mean someone is scum. Newbie townies do it a lot.
Me telling you and BM that you do not know what an OMGUS vote tells.
well yes if someone is always known for revenge voting it may be a null tell but it also means they should probably be at the top of the suspect list. Also it depends on the nature of the vote: If you're doing it while building a case then it's fine. If you do it just because you have nothing else to do and crap reasoning then you come off looking squirmish and guilty.
Also there isn't that much information flowing around. A lot of it is people poking holes around to see what people say. Like L claiming my team or Radfield's team must be Mafia because his top target sucks: thats ridiculous logic. I'm not sure if it's obnoxious L being sincere or he's faking it but either way it's dumb.
Discussing revenge voting with Bill Murray here based on the OMGUS quote. This is also my first response to Ls bad logic which I'll illustrate again in my next post.
No such thing. If X, then Y doesn't apply here unless we have process of elimination. There's also no such thing as a too risky play unless you have perfect information. You don't know their roles so you can't claim what they may possibly do is too risky. Both teams could be scum because no one has been cleared via DT or behavior at all.
My response to YI's idea of if one player being X then the other being Y. Once again I'm discussing game play ideas and why such and such won't work. Contrary to your idea earlier this is actually the second time I'm discussing Detectives in the game.
So you accuse people of possibly being scum, they address your argument so therefore something must be fishy?
Explain this more.
Also you can't assume the host balanced teams. If that's the case then you and Caller would just as likely be Scum if we're going by experience and some level of skill here. It also hinges on the fact that YI/Durak have to flip red. If they don't then your entire argument falls to shambles and we've seen that happen before.
My first time directly calling you on your bullshit. You never admitted to being wrong about the host balancing teams either. So this was your first try at lightweight tagging me that I shot down. I also point out that your premise fails if T5 flips scum. You never even explained it anymore after that.
We do not know you are green. Everyone is going to claim green. That's irrelevant.
I addressed your argument. I said you suspecting the host of balancing teams is a fallacy, especially when the host claimed to use a RNG. If you still do then your entire argument hinges on the host lying right?
Your argument was that Yi/Durak are a weak team. If they are red, then the other mafia team must be a strong team. You then say it's up to my team or Radfield's team. I told you that IF you argument was sound then you'd also have to include yourself. The rest of the town has no idea about your alignment and saying "my PM says I'm green" doesn't make it any clearer. This is what I keep bringing up : the LOGIC in your arguments don't add up.
Also what does Radfield/Korynne being silent have to do with my stance on them? Them not responding to you doesn't make them scummy. Once again your saying I'm taking an odd defensive stance when all I've done is address why your logic doesn't add up. Seems more to me that you are trying to forcefully characterize my stance on your argument into a position which doesn't exist.
Once again I point out your logical fallacies here. This is pretty much a rehash of the previous post where I tell you your logic doesn't add up and I call you on making stuff up.
Your argument with YI? I viewed it as you (my strongest scum read so far) arguing with someone I don't have a read on. Only thing I could say about YI was he was trying to start discussion.
BM asked me a question and I answered him here: It was about his argument with YI.
I can't believe you of all people are accusing someone of circular logic. I'm trying to illustrate to you that saying "I'm green" doesn't remove you from the pool of "strong teams" in your own argument. I know you'll claim green, no shit. I'm telling you it isn't convincing anyone that you aren't scum and repeating it doesn't help either.
More of me disdaining L for his mini tantrums and calling other's logic absurd when he makes the most ridiculous stories up.
no problem. I was planning on talking a lot anyway this game so you don't lead the town to depths of hell like you normally do.
Guess who this is in reply to? L. Look at the quote here:
In general, however, this has been a fantastic way to make you talk more than you would have otherwise, so thank you for taking part on that fishing expedition.
So how can you say I'm talking more than I would have otherwise but accuse me of laying low? Blatant contradiction here.
Hey I can't stop people from doing what they want. But if you want to argue about who's a better player we both know that won't last long ^_^
My retort to L in which he tried to say something about another game to mock me.
I'm scumhunting. I already said I don't believe BM/Chez to be townies. If that's not a blatant accusation along with my matching vote in the thread I don't know what game you're reading.
My reply to L in which he accuses me of not scumhunting. Notice right now that both of us have 2 different ideas on what entails finding scum: L uses various pokes and prods and mass accusations to get "results" where as I have multitudes of techniques such as laying traps, lead questioning, heavy behavior analysis and deadly game theory. One of us has an excellent reputation while the other doesn't.
why do I even bother
This is me just about ignoring Ls nonsense that has nothing to do with the current game. I'm not going to discuss what he thinks is or is not scumhunting because I already know he is very bad at it while I'm just that good.
I think the reason you two aren't getting a lot of flak is because a couple of players are setting off everyone's radar.
Korynne asks why her team isn't getting burned by inactivity and I just tell her a few players are acting so scummy everyone is ignoring them.
no its not. It's pretty bad theory and only pans in the most simple of newbie games. The "third" vote idea doesn't even make sense because BM doesn't understand what it meant. It had nothing to do with the 3rd player voting - it had everything to do with trying to catch where a scum would vote without drawing attention aka getting on the wagon but without being blamed for tipping it.
Being that scum will vote wherever they think will allow them to escape scrutiny that statement is nonsense.
This was an instance of the "3rd vote = scum" theory that I shut down. Notice I explain the basis of the theory and why it was an arbitrary number like 3. By this point I'm pretty annoyed with BM's scummy behavior: That's 2 terms from MS that he has misused in attempt to build arguments against players. Right about now if I was scum why the hell would I want to stop that? As scum I'd be fucking proud that BM is a townie spreading misinformation in his arguments to lynch other players.
Don't worry, I think L is just as scummy as you are.
BM says my scumdar is off and I assure him I think L is just as fishy.
calm down. Like I said I think L is just as scummy as you are. I just refuse to vote for Team 7 because I don't think them being inactive = them being scum. Your team and Ls team just come off as better candidates for a lynch so far.
Bill Murray urges me to reconsider my stance on him and I tell him to calm down because I think once again L is just as scummy. I also tell him I don't believe in voting off T7 on the basis of inactivity being a scum tell.
Oh trust me I've considered it. While I pegged you as scummy, and chezinu as doing his brain dead act - L has been causing confusion, pointing tons of fingers while Caller has been pretty much lurking. I'm really close to switching my vote trust me.
More discussion with BM on my stance with him. Notice at this point I admit I'm very close to switching my vote to L/Caller.
I think you're the only one that read bum/lax as scummy. What did they do that was so bad anyway? They aren't inactive and they haven't really thrown around many FOSs.
Also hanging BM/Chez and them not flipping red gives you more information how? Be specific because everyone uses that line. Killing people for the sake of information is one of the scummiest arguments we've seen on this forum (looking at you L).
This was me asking T5 what was so bad about T3. They were the only ones who read them as scummy. YI also made a logic error in saying BM/Chez flipping red gives him more information. I correctly point out that a lot of people say this as the basis for lynching when it's not always true. L does this lots of times and I point that out.
Radfield I don't know how you can go after team 9 when BM/Chez have played more scummy than they have. Yea they aren't posting a lot but the BM/Chez are posting garbage. Lack of effort doesn't mean someone is scummy. Playing like scum usually means the person really is scum.
I question RFs decision to go after T9 over T2. I explicitly state that a lack of effort doesn't mean someone is scum.At this point I'm pretty convinced T2 is scum.
@YI: No it doesn't. That logic does not hold up. Bm/Chez flipping red/green don't have any basis on bum/laxer flipping red/green. There is nothing to compare between the 2 teams.
More talk to YI about the problem with his idea that one team flipping red/green implies what the other team will flip.
I actually get clueless newbie vibes from Team 9. In fact they are like a clone of Team 7 just less aggressive when confronted so far. I think they really are just not going to post a lot until at he point of damn near inevitable lynch.
Discussion with Radfield on T7 and T9.So no one else has a problem with blatant vote manipulation plans?
It's empty statements like that that make me keep my vote on you.
BM stop using terms you do not understand. Seriously, just stop.
These were statements in response to BM switching his vote around a lot. I thought he was scum trying to push any bandwagon that he could find.
Ok if anyone has any fucking sense about what RVS is, and the dumb "3rd voter on a wagon is scum" theory then read Bill Murray's latest posts. Forget bum/laxer - we've got some straight up ridiculous logic right in front of us.
Right here I crash the logic party of BM. I sense things may get out of hand and T2 may get off the hook and urge the town to go after them. I've already nailed BM for 3 things by this point: bad theory, blatantly lying about what RVS means and vote manipulation. By this point in the day I'm 100% committed to them.
I haven't even pushed a single policy lynch this game. Why are you making stuff up? Find an instance of me calling for a policy lynch. I dare you.
BM blatantly lying about me going off on policy lynches. You can read all the previous posts of mines and notice I never even debated policy. If anything a policy lynch would involve me wanting to lynch inactives. Also notice not once have I debated about BM/Chez's playstyle. All my reasoning has been based on what has happened in the thread.
I haven't demanded anyone to play a certain way. Once again you are lying about my play this game. My vote on you stays.
BM says I'm demanding him of playing a certain way when I've never even tried to. More lying. My vote stays.
this much vote switching = an innocent is getting killed. No way actual townies have any reason to switch around votes if their minds are already made up.
Right here I point out that the multiple vote swings is going to get an innocent killed. There's no reason for townies to be changing their votes a lot when nothing major has happened yet. Only scum would have incentive to hop on and off bandwagons.
I don't see what the big deal is. She explicitly stated she was going to vote for Chez/BM so they couldn't save themselves - obviously at that point she made up her mind.
Secondly the wagon on T9 never really got going. If you subscribe to the idea that they must be scum because of the vote switch then you should ask yourself why didn't they vote for the other teams that were also in hot water. I think the only reason this is a big deal is because BM/Chez flipped town even though lots of people thought they were scum. I said it like 4 times but the only person even close to their scum level is L.
Also saying Chez had the chance to save himself is ludicrous. If he did then he should have voted/persuaded others ages before the deadline. I don't know what he was waiting for but it's just as ridiculous to blame someone for another person's death while said person has the chance to save themselves.
Me pointing out that Korynne is not scummy for closing the vote on T2. This goes on for a while.On June 25 2010 04:26 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 03:48 L wrote:Ace even said how could you not see that BM/Chez are more scummy than T9 in response to Radfield.
Uh, BM/Chez were never scummy. They spammed a lot but it was pretty obvious they were town. In hindsight do you think that a group would have fake claimed medic as mafia on day 1 under the conditions they did? No.
Yes they were. BM spent the entire time of Day 1 pointing multiple fingers at a ton of players. He also elected to talk in code with his partner who was being equally silly. Seriously if those don't scream scum to you it's no wonder why you have a reputation as a terrible player. Then again since you like to accuse multiple people every day I guess you would consider that decent play.
Show nested quote +Secondly the wagon on T9 never really got going.
Uh, the 'wagon' on both teams was 15 votes. Chez had another 3 votes he could have used to save himself. How is this even relevant? If the wagon wasn't 100% tied, the change of vote would have been irrelevant.
The wagon on T9 was never going to tip. Look at how it formed: We went through 3 teams being on the hot box to toward the end of the Day people voting on T9 because they were quiet - not because they were scum. It was a pressure vote. If you honestly think they were going to be killed then I have no idea what thread you are reading.
Show nested quote +Also saying Chez had the chance to save himself is ludicrous.
Votes were 15/15 with chez on a third party. Ludicrous? rofl. Its not like BM and Chez weren't active in the thread arguing against their scuminess (like you're pretending they weren't), either.
If telling everyone "I'm town because I said so" counts as arguing (it doesn't) then sure. They had no shot at convincing anyone they weren't scummy as you clearly see they got lynched.
Show nested quote +I think the only reason this is a big deal is because BM/Chez flipped town even though lots of people thought they were scum.
That's the problem. No one really thought they were scum. Look at the post lynch discussion "oh i got a bad vibe from them, was wrong lol sorry". No one had a strong conviction about it.
Teams 7 8 and 9 voted together against chez bm + you. Then Korynne popped in and prevented 9 from reacting.
Teams 7 and 9 were targeted BY team 2 for lynch. That leaves team 8, you and Korynne as the sore thumbs.
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I thought they were scum. "No one really thought they were scum" is a weak premise. If it were true then obviously BM/Chez would still be alive. Do you really think all those people voted them off just because?
Then you even say teams 7,8,9,myself and Korynne all had a hand in the lynch. If thats the case then surely some of us really thought they were scum.
Also I had to bold the last part to show people how your poor logic works.
Team 2 flips innocent. So therefore the people Team 2 "targeted" (which was almost everyone) 7 and 9 somehow get thrown out of the equation and now it's Team 1, myself and 8 sticking out?
Do better. Seriously in your conspiracy theories you implicate multiple players without anything to stand on. You pop up after everything goes down to lay the blame on teams while also saying no one really thought they were scum - ignoring how badly BM/Chez played. Like I said you are just as scummy as they were.
A long summary of basically Day 1 with Korynne's vote. I call L out for at this point accusing multiple teams and making up theories.
Don't worry that's Ls terrible style of play. If someone that everyone but himself thinks is scummy and playing badly when they flip innocent L will come in turning a blind eye to why the players were lynched and start pointing fingers at everyone. Like I said there's a reason he has a reputation of being a bad player.
I've already made my mind L is Scum at this point. Korynne notes that we all agreed T2 was spamming up the thread and that since they died we've been having real discussion. L is trying to play the blame game.On June 25 2010 04:52 Ace wrote:1.) I don't care if their standard play when they are town is to play like idiots. If you play badly and play scummy you get lynched - this is not a hard concept to understand.
2.) It wasn't going to tip. If it was going to tip then surely SOMEBODY would have voted to tip them right? You're trying to create a scenario that wasn't there. If you want to speak for Chez saying he could have saved himself then speak for him and explain to us why he didn't. You can't. Thanks.
3.)
Show nested quote +
oh, because a tied vote comprising less than 3 normal F11 players apiece means that they weren't convinced? The vast majority of players didn't vote for them and a number of people who voted admitted they did it for reasons other than believing T2 was mafia. QED again.
What? This doesn't even make sense. Who are these people that voted for other reasons than believe that T2 were mafia. If you truly believe those people then I'm asking you again what game are you playing. You also forget a vast majority doesn't decide the vote here. So that point is null. Once again you are spouting nonsense to make it seem as if T2 deserved to live despite their scummy play.
4.) Korynne's vote wasn't random - she explained what she was going to do WELL in advance of the deadline. Stop falsifying people's actions. It's not worth looking at because it didn't change anything. T2 had more than enough time - hours - to convince people they weren't scum. They failed. Chez also had a chance to use his vote right? He failed. Don't blame someone else for their death when they had all time in the world to save themselves.
Emotional reaction? where are you pulling this shit from? I never even implied that you said teams 7 and 9 are innocent. I specifically said you threw them out of the equation and pointed at the rest of us. How does that even compute?
I said I had a pre-game grudge against them? Did I use that as the basis for my vote or did I say BM was throwing around terms he saw on mafiascum.net incorrectly to justify his vote, threw around several accusations wily nilly, spammed the thread, switched votes several times in the day and had no clear idea on who he thought was guilty? Or how about when I said BM and Chez were playing badly by talking nonsense. Oh how about when I called him out for his "theory" on the 3rd voter on a wagon being scum and showed how it was wrong?
See once again you are blatantly lying about what's going on in the game. Now you even try to play the "your bad" card that no one will believe. So far I've caught you making shit up, misrepresenting myself and other players' positions on day 1 and trying to stave off T2s bad play as everyone else's fault.
Yup, my scumdar is beeping again.
Me slamming L for his multiple lies. This was addressed earlier and I'm going to bring this back up in a later post.
Bill your dead. Delete your posts and move on.
Bill Murray had posted something and I told him to stop posting after death.
I don't want to call him scummy yet because right now L is definitely #1 in my book. DCLXVI is along the same veins of making up conspiracy theories and motives that don't support what actually happened. Really he could just be confused.
The problem here is players don't look at the game as a whole and just isolate events. So they don't understand why certain things have played out the way they did so far. The result? Said players end up jumping into specific points of the game ignoring everything and getting into arguments because they just don't want to understand what has happened so far.
Discussion with Korynne about L and DCLXVI. At this point I'm already sure L is scum. I just don't want to reveal it as me being 100% sure yet because I'm not too sure about T1 either. I also don't want to force my hand to early - I sometimes like to let scum dig their own graves. Last time L and Dr.H were scum I caught both of them at the same time because they made some pretty bad logical arguments and tried to force them through.Not surprisingly this is happening again.
I've illustrated my case on L the past few pages. If you need it to be more clear let me know.
Korynne asks me to make a convincing case about L and I point out I have one on the previous page.
I wasn't surprised at all. I think you are making a big mistake about my play here: I don't care what a player's supposed normal behavior is. If you play scummy and do ridiculous things I will vote for you. There is no excuse such as "I always play bad when I'm town" and thats how I made my decision.
Of course if L flips green/blue you can do whatever you please.
I correct Radfield because he thought I was surprised about T2's play. I point out I definitely was not. I just nailed them for playing scummy.
Not at all. Players that always play scummy usually always end up getting killed. Remember the goal of the game is to find scum: In the absence of overwhelming evidence against another team the scummiest players get lynched.
But don't think I ignored every other player in the game so far. Just because I don't say anything about other players doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Better to solve 1 piece of the puzzle at a time.
More discussion with Radield on it. On June 26 2010 09:01 Ace wrote:I don't think it's fair to claim that my team being alive means were scum. There's a lot of WIFOM in that assumption and no one knows for sure why T1 was popped except scum. Instead of trying to attribute the possibility or us being scum to our survival maybe you should realize if we're that good there's a chance the people doing the hits were scared of medic prots.
Lastly bumatlarge I don't know where this came from:
Show nested quote +
I've got a strong feeling that either team 4 or L are mafia. It might not seem like team 4 has done much to warrant it, but I know first hand darth can act completely pro-town, especially in a game with no clues. I'm sure Ace has the ability to play right along side that style of play. Id think L only because hes been so negative in this thread and has acted generally underwhelmed by most everyone's play. But Im not too scared of the prospect of L being mafia. I'm afraid we will definitely lose if team 4 is mafia and not lynched today.
I'm going to put my vote on them, as it seems alot of people are in agreement with this line of thought. I'm willing to put the vote on first, as I think this will be a decent time for newer townies to risk themselves against more experienced players. I was fairly cautious as a mafia, but now that we don't have much of an alternative, I'm willing to stay true to the amateur townie habits I've developed.
Who are these people? So far the only person who has made more than a passing remark that we may be scum is L. No one else has so how did you even come to that conclusion?
Discussion and response to BAL saying because we're good we must be scum.