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Rofl - let's go. #1 draft pick baby, pew pew laser.
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Thursday's fine. My goal will be to post at most 1/2 the usual amount in this game. Just so there's no confusion later on.
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On April 28 2010 09:25 flamewheel91 wrote: QATOL IS PLAYING!? Yeah man, you better sign up too!
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On April 30 2010 00:03 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: When do we send you our numbers? You can send yours to me anytime really.
Edit: Please stop sending me numbers. I am playing, not hosting. LoL!
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That was an awesome 3rd quarter /2nd half. One of the best bits of basketball in a while!
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Most times nobody goes 1/1, so yeah, sure.
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ROFL - we already lost one?
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I bid [12][3] thinking most people would pick in the top 10. Apparently a bad idea.
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Preliminary impressions:
Zona is town aligned; Quatol seems town aligned but less sure of it (scary if he isn't).
Foolishness is extremely shady - his first post is this ad-hominem attack:
On May 02 2010 03:04 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 14:09 Qatol wrote:Okay, fun time. I've been doing some thinking about the game setup and have some thoughts for the town going forward:
The first major item of note is this: + Show Spoiler [Vanilla Scum] +
You are Vanilla Scum!
The ability to kill 1 player per night belongs to you. One of you must PM me a kill for the night even though all 4 of you participate in the kill.
Remember you can coordinate your # picks during the draft phase. The Mafia team this round consists of: Jack, Jill, this bottle and my ecstasy pills!
You win when you outnumber the town, or there is no way for them to stop you from outnumbering them.
This tells us 2 things: 1. The mafia only have 1 KP in a game with 19 players. They also only have 4 members. Why is this important? With all the rolecheck abilities out there, the mafia are unlikely to stand much of a chance unless they get some very powerful roles. 2. The mafia team knew who each other were during the draft phase and were allowed to communicate with each other during said phase. Assuming they talked to each other at all, they did not overlap with each other. These 2 points lead us to a pretty simple conclusion: The mafia made sure they have very low numbers and their numbers were probably consecutive in order to guarantee that they would wind up with powerful role choices. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like: [3] [1] [4] [1] [5] [1] [6] [1] in order to avoid overlapping with the town as much as possible while still keeping near the top. I think it is unlikely that they bid a [1] [1] or even a [2] [1] just because they were worried the town would also bid those numbers. Bill Murray already claimed he bid [1] [1]. I wouldn't be surprised if this was actually the case. I think L probably bid [2] [1] hoping that people would stack on 1. The people I'm looking at right now are these people in particular: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn I strongly believe that 1 or 2 of them are mafia. They are also likely to go for the roles the mafia will rely upon for the game. Remember that aside from the Copy Cat (which would be a risky role for the mafia to take), if the mafia want a role that gives them additional KP, they are likely to take it with these picks. I'm specifically thinking that the mafia here will be targeting Jack of All Trades, Day Vigilante, and Vengeful Player. Keep these 3 players in mind for later. I also propose that people announce something: whether or not you moved down and what you bid. Why would you do that and why would it matter? Because it gives us an idea of what range people bid in. Remember, we want to piece together who bid what because the mafia did not stack numbers on top of each other. I realize that the mafia can lie about this, but it really doesn't matter. If they lie about their bidding numbers, then the town has an opportunity to catch them in a lie based on who else bid that number. If someone moved down, they are placed in a group with the people around them. When you find a mafia in that group, it increases the level of trust with the people around you. With this in mind, I would like to announce that I moved down. I bid [6] [1] thinking that the mafia might try for consecutive numbers starting between 2 and 4. That would mean that they would end between 6 and 8. I'm almost positive I overlapped with one of the mafia. This means that we should also be looking very hard at: 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee I confirmed with Ace that this situation: A - [3] [1] B - [3] [1] C - [5] [1] D - [5] [2] will result in: A and B are ordered randomly, C, D. The second tie does not move you down a second time. This means that anyone who moved down yet is still above me bid at least a 6. Everyone below me moved down AND bid at most a 6. If you bid between 3 and 5 and moved down, it is especially important that you speak up.
Why am I coming forward with this information right now and not after roles are selected? Because I want the town to deny the mafia the most powerful roles or at the very least control their use. We can't stop the mafia from taking roles to increase their KP, but we can still control who gets what role and try to keep the mafia away from the 3 most important ones: Inventor, Compulsive Vigilante, and Role Blocker. Why are these roles especially important? The first 2 provide the mafia with kill power EVERY NIGHT. The third one allows the mafia flexibility to get around this plan. Therefore, I want Bill Murray to take Inventor and L's replacement to take Compulsive Vigilante. Foolishness will take Roleblocker.Bill Murray, you will be making meth bombs (if Ace allows it) or at least bulletproof vests for people every night. The day post will confirm that you followed these directions. This way you cannot give the mafia additional kill power. L's replacement, the town will be directing your shots. We will vote during the day on your hit. Foolishness, you will not be roleblocking anyone. If anyone claims to be roleblocked, we will immediately lynch you. Roleblocks are much stronger for the mafia than they are for the town. I would just as soon nobody get them. tl;dr:Look hard at these 5:3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee Claim your numbers. Revealing this information does not hurt the town but does hurt the mafia.Bill Murray, L's replacement, Foolishness: you have additional instructions. Read them. Did anyone else interpret this post as "waaa I'm upset that I was outsmarted by all these people and ended up low on the draft list waaa"? I indeed picked 1,1, meaning L picked 1,1 assuming BM isn't lying. ...followed a bit later by another post that does not sit well with me:
On May 02 2010 04:55 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 04:25 Qatol wrote:Lots of stuff to comment about: On May 02 2010 03:04 Foolishness wrote: Did anyone else interpret this post as "waaa I'm upset that I was outsmarted by all these people and ended up low on the draft list waaa"? Thanks for the vote of confidence. You had better pick roleblocker. On May 02 2010 03:50 DarthThienAn wrote: On another note, are we following Qatol's plan for the first 3? Is there a good argument why we shouldn't? I haven't seen one so far. Let me just say, that I highly doubt you would have posted all this stuff if you had wound up 1-5 on the list. Why do you fail to incriminate yourself in your analysis of what the town should do? Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 14:09 Qatol wrote:
tl;dr: Look hard at these 5: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee
And it's funny that you're number 11 on the list. According to your analysis, you are just as suspicious as anyone on that list, yet you fail to say so. And can you remind me why you picked 10-12 to "look hard at"? It seems arbitrary and a way to deflect attention off yourself (I may have missed it in your post if you already said so). And why do you neglect BM and L in this list? As far as we know, they both picked 1,1 with me. My guess is you're trying to butter them up so they listen to your plan. We all know how sensitive BM and L are; if you incriminated them they probably wouldn't listen to you at all (and it's kinda funny how BM doesn't want to listen to you anyways). Korynne also seems off to me. He is clearly thinking about the roles a lot, yet makes repeated mistakes in his proposed "pro-town" plans. This could be a new player thing, or someone who is trying to seem active but not paying enough attention to "the other side's view".
Together with their number picks (which Foolishness describes as having "outsmarted" others - which implies strategy, not luck) I view them as very fishy.
These are first impressions. I am not going to pretend they are strong and will not argue with anyone just yet - don't bother. Onwards and upwards.
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mod killing spree?!? ride the lightning baby!
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Scaramanga was just temp banned for 2 weeks by pachi.
That account was created on 2008-03-06 20:21:26 and had 5317 posts.
Reason: By Request
Riiight.
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Never mind - Scaramanga is not playing in this one, irrelevant ban.
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Bill, you won the draft. Use it.
Save the dissmissive tone, it does not become you. Even as a perceptions management tool. It' not earned and transparent.
Looking forward to your invention.
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2. Someone who claimed Vanilla is lying: Korynne, Opz or Falcynn This possibility is pretty bothersome - we may learn less than advertised by lynching Sidersprang. That said, I would like to hear more from Qatol, he's sort of gone dormant after being very active early on.
I really wish Bill would have just made detective kits or something to that effect. Remember Zona's observation about town win rates when the DT is dead/alive. In this case the role-picked DT may not be sane... so a plain vanilla Dt would be hugely helpful. Nothing will give us clearer information right now.
Town circles CAN be effective IF there is decent information to provide some minimum amount of trust/information (ie - a detective). Also, town circles can easily be infiltrated with this set of rules and, in this case, they will take way too long to set-up. How exactly was the cell phone supposed to work anyway? Does the "other" person need one too or can you PM anyone? Some other way?
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Oh, also - the DT kit can be made to only reveal alignment, not role, so it could not possibly harm the town if it fell into mafia hands. maybe there are better ideas out there, but as of now that's what I would do as an inventor.
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On May 04 2010 22:48 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 22:33 citi.zen wrote:2. Someone who claimed Vanilla is lying: Korynne, Opz or Falcynn This possibility is pretty bothersome - we may learn less than advertised by lynching Sidersprang. That said, I would like to hear more from Qatol, he's sort of gone dormant after being very active early on. More importantly Citizen, Are you going to vote Sidesprang? We learn a lot more with him than anyone else at the moment. If he flips green, we KNOW someone has lied and we have the likely candidates of ~opz~, Qatol and Falcynn. Think about it though, Sidesprang is the perfect distance down to pick CopyCat. Not high enough to get a great role, and just high enough to beat out Qatol. The perfect spot to take that pick if you're mafia and have 4 slots. Yup, at the end of the day some information is better than no information, so lynching him helps more than some other shot in the dark. Too early to have very strong red candidates anyway. Let's do it.
##Vote Sidesprang ##
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On May 04 2010 23:19 Scamp wrote: Personally, I'm wondering if there's a good reason not to lynch Foolishness right now. Not a bad question - even if he is willing to play along I don't think we will be able to use his kills properly just yet, so he is probably helping the mafia. It would be a great defensive play, but in the end I'd rather try to get some extra info by lynching sidersprang I guess.
I would NOT use the day vigilante of sidersprang though. Lynch him and save the day vig hit. No need to rush into this and start killing people left and right on very little information.
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On May 04 2010 23:30 JeeJee wrote:now that we know this.. # Bill Murray inventor # Foolishness comp vig # Korynne VANILLA # Falcynn VANILLA # [NyC]HoBbes ROLE # ~Opz~ VANILLA # d3_crescentia MEDIC # Caller VANILLA # sidesprang ? # Qatol VANILLA
let me add a piece of it as well # JeeJee VANILLA i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in hereeither that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here so foolishness, who are you gonna hit tonight? OK, so someone who declared vanilla lied and took the role you had chosen. I continue to like Korynne as a red, but Could be anyone really. Caller is not offering anything, as usual - I would be comfortable asking Foolishness to hit him.
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On May 04 2010 23:40 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 23:30 JeeJee wrote:now that we know this.. # Bill Murray inventor # Foolishness comp vig # Korynne VANILLA # Falcynn VANILLA # [NyC]HoBbes ROLE # ~Opz~ VANILLA # d3_crescentia MEDIC # Caller VANILLA # sidesprang ? # Qatol VANILLA
let me add a piece of it as well # JeeJee VANILLA i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here so foolishness, who are you gonna hit tonight? Hold on Jeejee, you're claiming VANILLA?? If so, what did you try to pick? Because if you didn't pick copycat, and it would be strange for you to go for CompVig or Inventor, then you must have picked Hobbes' role. Despite my previous posts, I'm not in favor of outing all the roles. But this is too juicy because we can catch one of Jeejee or Hobbes in a lie possibly. If Jeejee claims what he picked, and Hobbes reveals that he doesn't have that role, then one of them is lying, and we just found another mafia(or SK perhaps, either is good). And Jeejee if you claim to have picked Inventor or Compvig, I would find it highly suspicious, given all our plans of taking those two roles first, and you picking 11th. So Jeejee, WHAT ROLE DID YOU TRY FOR??? and Hobbes, IS HE TELLING THE TRUTH??? We can find out some info here folks. Or sidersprang took it and Qatol lied. Or another vanilla role claimant lied.
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Ok, we have 4 vanilla role claimants + Hobbes + sidersprang, one of which lied if JeeJee is telling the truth.
We should lynch sidersprang, as discussed. I'd like to keep Qatol around. Hitting Hobbes is risky if he has a good role and is pro-town. Leaving us with Korynne, Falcynn and ~Opz~ to use the compulsive vigilante hit on.
I will vote to compulsive vig hit Korynne out of that group.
And no, I still don't like using he day vig. No reason to speed up the killing on poor information. Let's wait for the lynch flop and save the day vig hit for a time we have more info.
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You are right. Back to the drawing board.
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On May 05 2010 01:01 Radfield wrote: Wow Opz, I thought I was being clear in my posts, but obviously not. Did you skim read? Also, yes I try hard. I'm not sure why people sign-up if they're going to half-ass it.
You keep stating things as if I haven't given a clear reason for each of the things I put forward. I explained why I left Korynne off the list, I specifically said we should NOT use our CV hit on Qatol, I made a good case for Sidesprang which you casually brushed aside because..... well, no reason.
Don't get all defensive about me putting your name out there, try to see why I put it out there. If Sidesprang flops green SOMEONE IS LYING. Surely you agree that we should try to figure out who?
The issue JeeJee brought up should be addressed: what if we lynch sidersprang and he turns out pro-town and copycat? Then we have... no leads and a dead medic. Everyone else could be telling the truth, no?
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On May 05 2010 01:42 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: If someone was stupid enough to grab the copycat while being town-aligned, completely ignoring the town plan they'll probably be no help as whatever role they pick up. Therefore, im down with lynching sidesprang So you are saying you didn't take it either. Cool, more info.
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On May 05 2010 01:30 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 01:20 citi.zen wrote:On May 05 2010 01:01 Radfield wrote: Wow Opz, I thought I was being clear in my posts, but obviously not. Did you skim read? Also, yes I try hard. I'm not sure why people sign-up if they're going to half-ass it.
You keep stating things as if I haven't given a clear reason for each of the things I put forward. I explained why I left Korynne off the list, I specifically said we should NOT use our CV hit on Qatol, I made a good case for Sidesprang which you casually brushed aside because..... well, no reason.
Don't get all defensive about me putting your name out there, try to see why I put it out there. If Sidesprang flops green SOMEONE IS LYING. Surely you agree that we should try to figure out who? The issue JeeJee brought up should be addressed: what if we lynch sidersprang and he turns out pro-town and copycat? Then we have... no leads and a dead medic. Everyone else could be telling the truth, no? If he did that then it was awfully anti-town. Qatol stated he was going for the copy-cat, why would another town player swipe it right before him instead of grabbing another useful role? It doesn't make any sense. But yeah, if he flops town aligned copy-cat that sucks, but he deserves it for screwing over the town plan. I don't care if "deserves it". Every single game there are bad town-aligned players who screw their team over, and it's too many of them to lynch the lot of them. That's just a sad fact.
What matters is what are our best options going forward. I like your reasoning a lot, which is why I voted for him. But can we do better?
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LOL @ bill. This ain't the single player campaign where you only wory about yourself. If you are red or continue to play iffy, we all lose. You already had a night to create an unaccounted for invention. Now you talk about guns... cool shit but if you've really learned anything from the past few games is that people with nukes or guns do NOT on the balance fare well. Everyone wants to be a hero (low cost but BIG bragging rights if your brilliance lands a red on day one, plus some people are just annoying and "deserve it" so some amount of satisfaction is guaranteed). DTs, on the other hand... always help. Especially here, where our default one may not be sane.
@Zona: good points on the role claims.
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On May 05 2010 05:33 Bill Murray wrote: @citi.zen: I wanted to set up a PM network giving 1 person the ability to PM everyone, and we could coordinate through triangulation Not guaranteed to help, and likely easy to infiltrate. How do you know you aren't giving it to the wrong person, who can then try to get roleclaims from other players in PMs? Or, if nobody trusts them, how can they be effective? How can this person be effective if they don't have access to DTs? Who will protect them, when you need protection too.
Look, I'm all for town circles, but they are not THAT strong either. There may be better inventions I have not thought of, I just don't this one is it.
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On May 05 2010 05:41 Korynne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote:On May 04 2010 14:13 Korynne wrote: Hmmm, this further increases my suspicion of BM/Foolishness. I'm assuming d3 could've died trying to protect one of them.
Well now that mafia copy cat has a nub weak doctor role...
Can someone claim alignment on BM/Foolishness? I guess it's a bad idea to reveal your role so soon though. =\
FoS on BM/Foolishness, but certainly don't want to lynch the wrong one here. =\ [...] You don't think BM had protection if he wasn't mafia? Seriously, mafia hitting BM would of been....Not the smartest idea if he's town. So forget your FoS. It's weak. Extremely shakey. Okay seriously OpZ you need to read, or be more clear. A weak doctor died, which means that he could've tried to protect a mafia and got killed. Seeing as how we're all like PROTECT BM AND FOOLISHNESS, d3 could've died protecting one of them. I'm not implying BM or Foolishness should've died, I'm saying d3 could've died trying to protect one of them if they are mafia. Granted, SK probably killed someone and mafia killed someone but then again one of their kills could've been blocked so who knows... Also citi.zen, why do you vote for killing me out of me OpZ and Falcynn, I have no opposition to you killing me for information (finding out that BM/Foolishness is mafia/compvig) but you didn't state a reasoning.
I only have a very weak preference for you. Perhaps we can compvig hit sidersprang and not lynch? Not sure, but I don't want to take too many random shots before the dt(s) if bill agrees to make more kits) have time to perform checks. Before then it's more likely we will kill townies and help the mafia.
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On May 05 2010 05:46 Zona wrote: The copycat possibly getting weak doctor is important - it's not something that doesn't matter.
If we go with the prevailing assumption that the copy cat is mafia, the mafia now have a weak doctor. But a weak doctor for the mafia is as good as any other (non-paranoid) doctor for the mafia since they already know who not to target! In fact, it seems like it would be pretty damn useful for the mafia to have a doctor as the doctor can protect against night kills against mafia members - kills from the compulsive vig, the joat's shot, and the serial killer as well.
Now of course if the compulsive vig is mafia, then it's probably not as big of a deal, since the vig won't shoot his or her own team anyways. But what if the compulsive vig is town? Actually, I don't like where this leads...
If we have a town compulsive vig and the town votes on who the vig should shoot (making the target public) then it becomes simple for the mafia copy cat weak doctor to prevent the hit. And better yet (for the mafia), in this situation the compulsive vig gets put in a bad light after this happens because people might suspect the vig didn't follow the town's will when the town's target didn't die. Hold on a second, how does the weak doctor work? Do they die if protected person is hit? This is all wrong then?
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That is an accurate description. Lots of other commitments atm.
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Sidersprang wasn't lynched because he was terribly suspect, but because he didn't really reply + we thought we might get more info on other people from lynching him. We got lucky with our lynch, which is great, but remember the mafia KP is the same whatever happens.
For tonight, I still like alignment kits as our invention - the chance of hitting a red by shooting into the crowd are now even lower. Alternatively - what do we think of making some meth-bomb-like item which would not kill all visitors, only the shooter? If enough townies have those the reds eventually kill themselves.
I need to review people's posts relative to Sidersprang.
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On May 05 2010 19:18 Bill Murray wrote: scum will probably kill me tonight sadly foolishness and the mafia will stack which will overpower our 1 (at most) remaining medic if i do not die tonight, foolishness is probably not mafia, it's that simple (or you could believe we're both mafia, i guess, which would be dumb of you) anyways, on the off-chance that foolishness is town-aligned, our medic should protect me. This is silly, I don't see any scenario in which Foolishness would hit you tonight. And if he doesn't it proves nothing about his alignment.
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On May 05 2010 23:32 johnnyspazz wrote: if you guys feel like i'm the best target for compvig, then i'll just take one for the town. i know i haven't really been doing much for the town, sorry. maybe someone should go check the list of people who didn't vote for sidesprang for the next lynch target. Bill Murray JeeJee DarthThienAn Scamp citi.zen You are pretty awesome at this. Oh wait:
On May 04 2010 23:08 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 22:48 Radfield wrote:On May 04 2010 22:33 citi.zen wrote:2. Someone who claimed Vanilla is lying: Korynne, Opz or Falcynn This possibility is pretty bothersome - we may learn less than advertised by lynching Sidersprang. That said, I would like to hear more from Qatol, he's sort of gone dormant after being very active early on. More importantly Citizen, Are you going to vote Sidesprang? We learn a lot more with him than anyone else at the moment. If he flips green, we KNOW someone has lied and we have the likely candidates of ~opz~, Qatol and Falcynn. Think about it though, Sidesprang is the perfect distance down to pick CopyCat. Not high enough to get a great role, and just high enough to beat out Qatol. The perfect spot to take that pick if you're mafia and have 4 slots. Yup, at the end of the day some information is better than no information, so lynching him helps more than some other shot in the dark. Too early to have very strong red candidates anyway. Let's do it. ##Vote Sidesprang ##
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On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0.
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On May 06 2010 04:15 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. Easy. Do you trust Bill not to make a regular gun but have the same name? How about he makes another one after that? And then the mafia all fire their guns the same night. This is your strangest comment yet Qatol. If you do not trust Bill this entire discussion is worthless. It makes no difference if you ask him to make invention X or Y - if he works for the mafia he will make what he wants or change the properties of the invention how he wants. I don't get it.
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On May 06 2010 04:53 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 04:47 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 04:15 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. Easy. Do you trust Bill not to make a regular gun but have the same name? How about he makes another one after that? And then the mafia all fire their guns the same night. This is your strangest comment yet Qatol. If you do not trust Bill this entire discussion is worthless. It makes no difference if you ask him to make invention X or Y - if he works for the mafia he will make what he wants or change the properties of the invention how he wants. I don't get it. Actually, it makes perfect sense. The thing is, if Bill is working for the mafia, he will want to give out as many inventions as he possibly can before we catch him. To do that, he has to give out inventions which seem to be helping the town when they will actually help the mafia in the long run. If we are asking him to give out guns, what is to stop him from giving out his "guns" to mafia members and either claim that they went to people who just died or just say they went to the mafia members? Then the mafia can just go on a shooting spree in a few nights and close out the game. This is silly - ANYTHING can be used to kill someone - the key is in the description, not the name. Us giving Bill ideas does not help or stop him from changing the attributes we cannot observe.
Am I the only one who does not get this or is this plainly obvious?
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I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it.
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On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit?
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On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. Cool. So semantics aside, we agree we have something better than the dt kit. Bill please take note.
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Just invent the rd-only killing machine man. It's a kit + gun in one and cannot easily hurt the town. Could confuse us at most if given to a red, but I like the odds.
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FYYI: useless or confusing invention = I will vote for Bill next.
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On May 06 2010 11:52 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 11:49 Zona wrote: Bill - if you're town, you need to work with us, your fellow town members in order to get rid of scum. Even if you identify scum, you cannot lynch anyone on your own, and since you can't use your own inventions, you aren't able to kill on your own either.
You've been examining other people's arguments for holes - for example, saying Qatol's number grouping argument wasn't a strong sign that he was town. Have you considered examining the arguments you make on your own behalf that way? After all, the rest of us should be reading what you say the way you are reading other players' posts, if we are to be careful town members.
You need to invent something that is clearly pro-town and useful only to town members. Why is this? Like others have said, you need to clear suspicion around yourself. You clearly know if you're town, but you need to convince us, and so far your arguments and actions do not confirm you, and you should realize this if you examine what we can see of what you've done the way you are examining other players.
The thing is - a mafia inventor would clearly bring benefit to his or her team by turning out guns and other destructive inventions. But if that inventor did that it would clearly draw the attention of the town to get rid of this inventor as soon as possible. However, if a mafia inventor didn't want the town to immediately aim for his or her death, the inventor could turn out ambiguous inventions or tools that benefit the mafia in smaller ways, but aren't as obvious when publicized. It's up to you to prove to us that this situation is not the case.
I really hope that you don't instantly react to any criticism of you and your actions by thinking or saying that the person doing the criticizing is scummy, but instead take steps to address the criticism. If you act in an obviously pro-town way that OTHERS CAN UNDERSTAND, then you could be one of the town leaders, given your powerful role. And if your goal is a "town circle" (I really don't prefer this term), it doesn't necessarily have to rely only on PMs. A "town circle" is simply a group of players who know that each of the other players in the group are pro-town and work together to find and lynch scum. The reason they usually need to communicate in secret is that they're vulnerable if revealed to the public - but in this game, you as an inventor can take steps to counter that. Hey BM, invent a: Detective_Kit_to_Confirm_Bill_Murray's_Innocence. Waste of time.
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On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY.
This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol.
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I actually like JeeJee's pay in this game. First time for everything I guess. Good suggestions on invention, calling BS when he sees it, not bad. Here's a good example on the ongoing invention fiasco, where Qatol seems to keep raising half-baked objections:
On May 06 2010 05:42 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 04:53 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 04:47 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 04:15 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. Easy. Do you trust Bill not to make a regular gun but have the same name? How about he makes another one after that? And then the mafia all fire their guns the same night. This is your strangest comment yet Qatol. If you do not trust Bill this entire discussion is worthless. It makes no difference if you ask him to make invention X or Y - if he works for the mafia he will make what he wants or change the properties of the invention how he wants. I don't get it. Actually, it makes perfect sense. The thing is, if Bill is working for the mafia, he will want to give out as many inventions as he possibly can before we catch him. To do that, he has to give out inventions which seem to be helping the town when they will actually help the mafia in the long run. If we are asking him to give out guns, what is to stop him from giving out his "guns" to mafia members and either claim that they went to people who just died or just say they went to the mafia members? Then the mafia can just go on a shooting spree in a few nights and close out the game. this doesn't make sense if he claims the gun went to a mafia and thats why it hasn't been used, then he should call out said mafia and we lynch him, lol Well said, no idea how Qatol missed that one too.
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Right: Ace, would we be allowed to invent a "device_that_only_kills_when_pointed_at_reds"? Is this game breaking or not?
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On May 06 2010 12:51 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:34 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. The original gun we were talking about could kill innocents. I hadn't thought of a gun that cannot kill innocents until someone else had brought it up. I'm okay with a gun that can't kill townies. Bill still has to give the gun to someone else to use. While it can't shoot him, he is giving it to someone we basically know has KP (though he hasn't acknowledged it). Thus he wants it to be able to detonate if that player shoots him even through other means. This idea also protects him in the future if he happened to give a gun to the mafia because if the mafia hit him, the gun blows up one of their members. If we're going to randomly add arbitrary functionality to the invention - why not just make the bullets automatically home in on scum? Then we don't even have to worry about picking the good target. And let's not stop there. How about allowing it to penetrate bodies and continue onwards - so it'll hit more than one target! And the bullets might as well roleblock them at the same time, since that would kind of nice? We might want to run a lot of these complicated devices through Ace before we dream up of more broken inventions that he'll never approve. If he's not even going to give us a +1 life invention that lasts more than one night, are we really expecting these to be approved? A detective kit is probably the best viable idea so far. I'd hope for one that could find the serial killer as well as mafia but given that the specific serial killer advantage is that he or she appears innocent to cops, I don't think it's hopeful. Maybe a gunpowder detection kit instead. This would have the advantage of finding the serial killer as well as mafia, but would have the disadvantage of including town-aligned vigs in the results. But after the kit is used, the town can use supplementary evidence to differentiate between the two types. By the way - Qatol's objections were never that it would not be allowed. Instead, he repeatedly tried to say such an invention would not help the town, even if allowed.
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On May 06 2010 13:07 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:56 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 12:51 Zona wrote:On May 06 2010 12:34 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. The original gun we were talking about could kill innocents. I hadn't thought of a gun that cannot kill innocents until someone else had brought it up. I'm okay with a gun that can't kill townies. Bill still has to give the gun to someone else to use. While it can't shoot him, he is giving it to someone we basically know has KP (though he hasn't acknowledged it). Thus he wants it to be able to detonate if that player shoots him even through other means. This idea also protects him in the future if he happened to give a gun to the mafia because if the mafia hit him, the gun blows up one of their members. If we're going to randomly add arbitrary functionality to the invention - why not just make the bullets automatically home in on scum? Then we don't even have to worry about picking the good target. And let's not stop there. How about allowing it to penetrate bodies and continue onwards - so it'll hit more than one target! And the bullets might as well roleblock them at the same time, since that would kind of nice? We might want to run a lot of these complicated devices through Ace before we dream up of more broken inventions that he'll never approve. If he's not even going to give us a +1 life invention that lasts more than one night, are we really expecting these to be approved? A detective kit is probably the best viable idea so far. I'd hope for one that could find the serial killer as well as mafia but given that the specific serial killer advantage is that he or she appears innocent to cops, I don't think it's hopeful. Maybe a gunpowder detection kit instead. This would have the advantage of finding the serial killer as well as mafia, but would have the disadvantage of including town-aligned vigs in the results. But after the kit is used, the town can use supplementary evidence to differentiate between the two types. By the way - Qatol's objections were never that it would not be allowed. Instead, he repeatedly tried to say such an invention would not help the town, even if allowed. I said the detective kit wasn't as good as the extra night life when I thought it was permanent. Detective kit is fine if conditional bullets are not allowed. And what "half-baked objections" are you worried about? I don't like bombs. I agree the mafia gun thing JeeJee caught was a bit of a slipup. Is there anything else? You're pushing pretty hard and I'm starting to wonder why. Because these are very simple mistakes and I'd expect better. Pointing out that Bill is not making sense is useless. Having that happen with you, Ace, Zona, etc - is a whole different animal.
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Which words did I put in your mouth?
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On May 06 2010 13:58 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:56 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 12:51 Zona wrote:On May 06 2010 12:34 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. The original gun we were talking about could kill innocents. I hadn't thought of a gun that cannot kill innocents until someone else had brought it up. I'm okay with a gun that can't kill townies. Bill still has to give the gun to someone else to use. While it can't shoot him, he is giving it to someone we basically know has KP (though he hasn't acknowledged it). Thus he wants it to be able to detonate if that player shoots him even through other means. This idea also protects him in the future if he happened to give a gun to the mafia because if the mafia hit him, the gun blows up one of their members. If we're going to randomly add arbitrary functionality to the invention - why not just make the bullets automatically home in on scum? Then we don't even have to worry about picking the good target. And let's not stop there. How about allowing it to penetrate bodies and continue onwards - so it'll hit more than one target! And the bullets might as well roleblock them at the same time, since that would kind of nice? We might want to run a lot of these complicated devices through Ace before we dream up of more broken inventions that he'll never approve. If he's not even going to give us a +1 life invention that lasts more than one night, are we really expecting these to be approved? A detective kit is probably the best viable idea so far. I'd hope for one that could find the serial killer as well as mafia but given that the specific serial killer advantage is that he or she appears innocent to cops, I don't think it's hopeful. Maybe a gunpowder detection kit instead. This would have the advantage of finding the serial killer as well as mafia, but would have the disadvantage of including town-aligned vigs in the results. But after the kit is used, the town can use supplementary evidence to differentiate between the two types. By the way - Qatol's objections were never that it would not be allowed. Instead, he repeatedly tried to say such an invention would not help the town, even if allowed. Don't speak for me. I can do that myself thank you. Good one. So, in your own words - did you ever raise the objection that JeeJee's suggested invention was not permitted?
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On May 06 2010 19:09 Radfield wrote: I have been shot at and saved by the medic. Good work medic.
Likely scenario:Foolishness kills Jspazz, Mafia shoot at me, SK kills Bill Murray.
If you think about it, BM was a bigger threat to the SK then anyone else in the game. Considering that the only way the SK can get found is either the tracker or BM's inventions.
Interesting claim that you got hit and were protected. There is only one medic in the game (at most). They could be red I suppose, but if they aren't, this would be a very hard claim to fake since someone would know you are lying. So this moves the needle a bit more towards your innocence in my mind. And it certainly means you are NOT the SK - which is nice to know.
As far as BM - yes, I think he was a threat to the SK, in particular if he made some invention along the lines of what we suggested. It would provide a 3rd person with a way to find the SK and also kill them (assuming Ace allowed it to work like that).
Speaking of finding people - would a townie ever take the godfather role? That and the role-blocker are much stronger in mafia hands.
Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 15:50 Bill Murray wrote: good game guys. i was going to not invent anything as if i was a mafia i'd obviously invent something and give it to the mafia. by way of not inventing anything, i was proving to you all i was innocent.
i hope you all win. Wow, the likelihood of us lynching you for this move was decently high... oh well Yup, Bill changed his style, but isn't a better player unfortunately. In particular, when he is town he continues to be a big time liability. If he made no invention, I was going to vote for him 100%, which would be a wasted day. Given he was going to not make anything, it's actually a good thing the reds chose to kill him instead of someone else.
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For some reason I don't have the "show all posts" option anymore in the thread - does anyone know how I can get it back?
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Citizen style this game also just seems so obviously scummy, (right down to the pointless arguing with you, when you are very obviously in my eyes non-mafia) that I'm inclined to think him a townie. If pressed I would take him off the non-mafia list, but I don't think him all that likely to be scummy. Pretty convoluted statement, even if I like the conclusion. Anyway, two comments:
1. I did not argue pointlessly - I tried to clarify why Qatol wanted an invention over another. In the end he agreed a machine that could only kill reds and the SK would be the better option. That sort of consensus was worthwhile fighting for, if we had any half-reasonable person as inventor.
2. Calling out people I think are making statements which are contradictory with their stated role is what I always do. It bothers me when a pro town person does not accept a simple argument to help the town. Every single game pointing out these inconsistencies leads to reds - even if it takes a while to get to the truth, and even when the player making the mistake is good (for balancing purposes SOME good player(s) are always red). If you think this is not how I play, read any of my past games, from Micro-Mafia 1 to Mafia XVI.
I am OK with Darth as a lynch target, but like Korynne more. I can't get over how all over the place her original plans were. Long and seemingly trying to help, yet nonsensical at the same time. Effort went in to write them, but not really to think them through very well. Example under the spoiler. I will vote with whoever gets a majority of those two. + Show Spoiler + On May 02 2010 04:40 Korynne wrote: I don't know. But if any of the first two are mafia we're pretty screwed with this plan. If I was mafia I'd rather let BM or L die, and then have double kill power for the rest of the nights. BM can only hide for 1 night if he isn't the inventor. L can hide for 2 since vigi can't kill first night. Then next night we go oh shi--- mafia killed two people at night. And we can't even prove anything for sure, like if L takes Jack of all Trades, he can hide for 3 nights, or if town votes for the vigi hit to be on a townie during the night there's no reason not to just go ahead and do it.
And then if we get paranoid of his role, he might've picked meth man instead and we all go omg we gotta check him and boom, all our investigators are dead (so let's please at least coordinate the rolechecking guys).
So I'd say BM's role is pretty safe, in terms of he's outed the second day if he's not inventor. L's is the one I'm worried about, if he is mafia then he can pick meth man or jack of all trades and then when he finally gets outed like 3rd or 4th day then they have already easily secured the double lynch. Foolishness' role is pretty safe for town too, in terms of well if he tries to roleblock he gets killed.
Why did you choose to place the compulsive vigilante role as second, Qatol?
Also what are your thoughts on having somebody closer to the back of the draft claim copy cat? This way we know if mafia decides to steal it, and if they do we offer them up some "useless" role. I would suggest someone taking the Floridian at the end, just so we can lynch that person if copy cat is taken. Floridian being useless This way if copy cat is not mafia, then mafia will have to kill someone less significant the first night. If copy cat was mafia, it would still be pretty hard for them to do anything since town is watching them. So if compulsive vigilante dies first night, then we just treat copy cat as him instead. So really I see no drawbacks to this idea.
Now to pick a copy cat, and to pick the Floridian. I suggest the following format: We want them to be closer to the back of the line, since we're wasting ability to get good KP/investigative roles if we put them in the front. So I suggest picking from 16 onwards.
So I select: 18. Zona to be the Floridian. 17. Scamp to be the copy cat.
Since both these roles are heavily controlled by town (and the Floridian is pretty much "useless") it wouldn't make sense for me to give these roles to my partners if I was scum, since Floridian pretty much kills one of 4 mafia roles, and the copy cat is controlled by town like the first couple roles.
Any issues with this?
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On May 07 2010 05:13 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 04:55 Qatol wrote:On May 07 2010 03:46 Scamp wrote: The only problem with Korynne being mafia is that Foolishness would have to be mafia too. Remember that compvig was never actually confirmed, though if Radfield is telling the truth then there is one in the game (or we have a very sly mafia Joat).
Now that BM is confirmed inventor, for Korynne to lie about not getting compvig that means that Foolishness did not pick it. If Foolishness did not pick compvig then he would have no reason to lie to us at this point except if he's mafia. What? Why can't we have a mafia Korynne and an innocent Foolishness? Foolishness could have just been innocent and gone against his assignment. He does do somewhat paranoid things from time to time. Like in the speed game, he told me he was in contact with a nonexistent vigilante because he was suspicious of me. Late game, when we needed that vigi to take a shot, it didn't happen and we lost. On May 07 2010 04:24 DarthThienAn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Qatol's post] +On May 07 2010 01:09 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 01:01 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 06 2010 22:35 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 19:09 Radfield wrote: I have been shot at and saved by the medic. Good work medic.
Likely scenario:Foolishness kills Jspazz, Mafia shoot at me, SK kills Bill Murray.
If you think about it, BM was a bigger threat to the SK then anyone else in the game. Considering that the only way the SK can get found is either the tracker or BM's inventions.
Interesting claim that you got hit and were protected. There is only one medic in the game (at most). They could be red I suppose, but if they aren't, this would be a very hard claim to fake since someone would know you are lying. So this moves the needle a bit more towards your innocence in my mind. And it certainly means you are NOT the SK - which is nice to know. As far as BM - yes, I think he was a threat to the SK, in particular if he made some invention along the lines of what we suggested. It would provide a 3rd person with a way to find the SK and also kill them (assuming Ace allowed it to work like that). Speaking of finding people - would a townie ever take the godfather role? That and the role-blocker are much stronger in mafia hands. On May 06 2010 15:50 Bill Murray wrote: good game guys. i was going to not invent anything as if i was a mafia i'd obviously invent something and give it to the mafia. by way of not inventing anything, i was proving to you all i was innocent.
i hope you all win. Wow, the likelihood of us lynching you for this move was decently high... oh well Yup, Bill changed his style, but isn't a better player unfortunately. In particular, when he is town he continues to be a big time liability. If he made no invention, I was going to vote for him 100%, which would be a wasted day. Given he was going to not make anything, it's actually a good thing the reds chose to kill him instead of someone else. Well... it doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't the SK. All it means that the medic actually DID protect him, or else he's taking a risk in assuming that there are no medics left in the game so that he won't get called out. However, to me, he's 99% pro-town. Hobbes and JeeJee seem to know something that no one else knows - either both of them are town, or both of them are mafia? Well... that's not necessarily true, but both of them think the other is of the same alignment at least. 1 could be mafia tricking the other into believe he is innocent using the role that they picked. As for my "fading out", I've been reading pretty relatively regularly... well not "regularly" but frequently I think. I post when I have something to contribute, or have an idea. Plus, stuff happens. We all have lives =p. On May 06 2010 19:25 Radfield wrote: OK, lets look at some potential suspects. Foolishness certainly gets a pass for now, no reason to worry about him as long as he keeps shooting properly. But, I think it likely the mafia would have had someone put down 1 as there number, so....
Korynne: A lot of theorycrafting early on, but posting less and less as time goes on, barely contributing at all as far as our lynch suspect or compvig hit. She has continually mentioned that killing her off for info is a good idea. She voted 6th on the Sidesprang lynch with very little analysis. We would gain a bit of info from her death(if she's red then foolishness and citizen are almost certainly green) but not much
Korynne, I'm pointing the FoS at you. I don't have a great case, but I'd like to hear you on the record with who you find scummy and why, and who you think we should lynch/compvig today.
Also, I think it very unlikely that Qatol is mafia. Serial Killer maybe, but that goes for anyone at his point, no matter how pro-town they've been. Qatol basically got sidesprang killed by revealing that he went for copycat and missed. I can't think of any good reason for sidesprang's or qatol's actions if they were mafia buddies. I'm not sure the mafia would've put someone down as 1. I mean, we basically had two or three people claiming they were going 1, 1 early right? I know L said that. It seems silly for them to waste their time doesn't it? The only reason I see them doing it, is they are assuming that only one person would pick 1,1, so they want to deny that person getting first pick. Okay without Hobbes/JeeJee as mafia and without anyone who picked 1 as mafia, and I'll take out yourself and radfield you are basically saying the mafia are 3 of these 4: Opz, scamp, zona/citizen, and myself. Is that an accurate assessment of the situation to you? + Show Spoiler [Radfield's post] +On May 07 2010 01:23 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 00:12 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: JeeJee, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. It would be nice if I could PM you to be sure, but I think we're on the same page here. In that case, I'm pretty sure you're also town-aligned Well, as far as I'm concerned this takes both Hobbes and JeeJee off the short list. They might both be mafia together, but in that case one will lead us to the other. Qatol, I was re-reading those posts I put up this morning, and I was a little bit confused as to why I put Citizen on that non-mafia list as well. The reason is this though, pretty much everyone on my suspicious list has called out citizen as potential mafia. Citizen style this game also just seems so obviously scummy, (right down to the pointless arguing with you, when you are very obviously in my eyes non-mafia) that I'm inclined to think him a townie. If pressed I would take him off the non-mafia list, but I don't think him all that likely to be scummy. As far as Falcynn, my sole reasoning is that he immediately agreed with my origional post about sidesprang, and the way he worded everything strikes me as town. No one else had agreed with me about Sidesprang yet, and yet he was still the first one aboard. I think a mafia would have been slightly less ok with it. The post I'm referring to: Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 22:52 Falcynn wrote: Show nested quote On May 04 2010 21:08 Radfield wrote: + Show Spoiler +2b Falcynn wishy washily claimed VANILLA without actually doing it Alright, I guess I should clearly state, I'm a vanilla townie. I decided not to make mention of it since . Was preparing for/doing this on Friday/Saturday http://www.filmracing.com/Cities/sanfrancisco.htm and missed the role claims because of it. I'll make a blog of it Thursday night/Friday since we're not allowed to upload our video until after the screening (yeah, this is really more to just get attention for my future blog post then to actually explain myself ) Anyways, as for lynching sidesprang, you're logic seems pretty sound, I guess at this point with all the information that's been gathered, it'd be nice to make sure whether or not everyone at the top of the list has been telling the truth about their roles. If we can get a day vig hit then that might help, although I'm not sure if we'd be able to figure out another lynch target and pile the votes on them in time. It'd suck to essentially waste a day vig hit by not getting the lynch to add to it =/ On May 04 2010 22:52 Falcynn wrote: oh right ##vote sidesprang ## Korynne: I completely understand what you're saying about possibly being burnt out etc. However, I think you're a very clever player. You played your first game as a very active townie, you played your second game as a very active mafia, and being very convincing at that. I'm inclined to think that if you got mafia again in this game, you might play it exactly the way you are. Fake being tired of Mafia as an excuse to post less. Unfortunately for all of us, there's little you can do at this point to remove suspicion from yourself. Anyways, I'm genuinely hoping you're mafia, and that you're burnt out routine is an act, because you seem like a good player to have around. Show nested quote +Who do you think is the strongest candidate for mafia on that list? Cases have been made against JeeJee and Scamp so far. Out of the other players, both Darth and Korynne started out strong, but have really faded due to recent inactivity (which is actually a pretty strong scum tell usually). I don't believe Hobbes was super active at any point in the game? What do you think about OpZ? Korynne is a good target, because I think despite her alignment, she told the truth about being Vanilla. So worst case scenario we kill a vanilla townie who isn't that upset about being killed anyways, but gives us a lead to Foolishness maybe. Best case we get a vanilla mafia. JeeJee and Hobbes should get a pass for today, but if a bunch of other targets turn up innocent, we might have to hit them both. At some point the information they are sharing needs to be made public. If we don't hit a mafia with our lynch or comphit hit today, and the SK hits another townie, we'll need as much info as we can get. If we had to lynch one of them, I'd go with JeeJee I stand by what I said earlier about Scamp, but if we decide to lynch him and he is the medic, then he needs to roleclaim. If no one contradicts him, then we call off the lynch. Keep in mind, the medic is basically a confirmed townie, and pretty much a confirmed non-SK. I can't see why the SK would take medic as a role, though perhaps to deny it from the town, perhaps because it gives him/her a convenient cover. ~opz~: I think Opz threw me off his trail by his vehement defense when I called him out. He just seemed outraged that I was wasting time by putting him on any suspect lists. What made me suspect him was how he tried to sidetrack my Sidesprang argument, but looking at it now makes me think it was just a knee-jerk reaction of seeing his name on a suspect list. I also buy his story of trying for CompVig and failing. Likely Vanilla either way. Personally his posting makes me think he's town. I put him as a second string lynch target for now. DarthTheinAn seems suspect. He made a case against ~opz~ early on. Votes for Jspazz over JeeJee for the CV hit. Try's to give Scamp a pass for being TOO mafia. None of these things necessarily make him a mafia. But his posting in general smacks of mafia to me, I recommend everyone look through his posting. Points out lots of obvious stuff, steers the convo away from certain people, lots of theorycrafting early on, not much talk about voting later on. Darth seems mafia, and seems like he might lead us to other mafia. I vote we lynch DarthTheinAn, If he flops red, then I propose we Compvig Scamp, and ask the SK to hit JeeJee ##Vote DarthTheinAn##I haven't really talked about Zona, but I really don't have much to say about him. He seems fairly legit and is likely working hard on the zbot.... I didn't proofread as I've run out of time and steam. If there's anything I said that doesn't make sense please point it out. Alright. Let me explain myself, hopefully in full. I personally don't buy that something like a third of the players in the game are Vanilla because they "forgot" to PM Ace with their picks or they picked something already picked. THREE people picked Comp Vig, Opz being the lowest one down - he claimed he didn't read the thread before picking which is just dumb to me, and is one of the things that made me suspicious. Well, let's first rewind - the first thing that made me notice him was the fact that picked [4][14], which was coincidentally d3's number. But no one else seemed to care and we were steering away from the draft analysis, so I didn't bring it up again and distract the thread. That's because nobody really had anything to gain by claiming that little quirk. opz had to have picked [4][?]. The second number really isn't that important. Back to his role. Foolishness and Korynne (I'm assuming Foolishness is the CV and Korynne also picked it) I sort of understand picking CV because Foolishness... might have wanted CV (? Don't really know why he went for it) and Korynne picked it as per what the town was discussing iirc. But Opz, I don't really understand at all. There's no reason why you would do that, the same as if there's no reason why anyone would have picked copycat, except for mafia. What's more, as I said when I called him out, is that he claimed going for Comp Vig after Korynne had long been talking about it, which makes it really easy for him to lie, similar to the way some of the numbers people claimed could be lies. He also said this early on: + Show Spoiler [Opz's post] +On May 03 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote: It also gives the perfect opportunity for meds to just protect a smaller list of people. Inventor could claim, give someone from the top a veteran kit/bulletproof kit/nightlight to keep away the evil mafia away. Medicas can protect the other ones. We don't know who claimed Role Cop/ Alignment cop/meds...
We don't need the role I tried to pick, so me claiming shouldn't matter. Compulsive vig isn't really an epic role unless you are insanely lucky, or the town is insanely coordinated and good. So we should be good.
Alignment should check near top/Role cop should check near top. perhaps RC number 2, and alignment #1/3
Inventor could likely safely claim and coordinate atleast two protections. Seriously, hand out a vetkit/nightlight, and have a med protect him....If mafia hit a vet/bulletproof/protected target, they lose their nightkill...
Inventor shouldn't hide, and meds should protect him if mafia are likely to hit the top of the list.
Why claim later then? He says he's not going to claim, and later claims CompVigDenied-Vanilla. And, like I said, there was no need for him to roleclaim - there was no possible way it could help the town. We already knew that the CompVig was above Korynne. Unless she was lying, but his word was as good as hers. So claiming only helps the mafia really (unless you are lying to trick the mafia), because town can't really confirm that whether or not you're vanilla, but you're giving the mafia less targets to hit first. So a lot of unprovable "I'm Vanilla townie" things = I read possible scum. + Show Spoiler [His reply to me] +On May 05 2010 08:23 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 06:54 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 05 2010 06:30 Radfield wrote:Korynne is a girl folks, or at the very least, has roleclaimed girl lol. Korynne, that doesn't tell us anything, why'd you roleclaim? On May 05 2010 06:46 Radfield wrote: In my eyes, it would be very strange for picks 1-5 to take copy cat. They can already take a good role, the only reason to take copy cat would be to deny Qatol a role.
7 and 8 are dead.
Qatol has cleared up his position in his recent novel, I'm inclined to believe him.
For now this leaves Sidesprang(9) and Opz(6). Opz at 6 is on that bubble of not making much sense to pick CC, but he might have. He also claims he went for CompVig, but of course his claim doesn't mean much for now.
Sidesprang, you happen to be at the perfect spot for taking CopyCat.
On another note. I hadn't realized we can vote on the CV hits at night. But of course this makes perfect sense and is what we should be doing.
Opz is also suspicious to me though. He claims he went for CompVig AFTER Korynne already stated that she went for it and failed - not only is that a useless roleclaim, but it's completely un-confirmable, which makes me think he might be lying. Well, you can confirm with a Role Check but that requires the Role Cop to claim, which obviously is not a good idea. His pointing out that going CC is retarded makes that just a little bit more suspicious, trying to cover his tracks and whatnot. He's also been (in general) against most of what the town has been saying, and without much justification, which is scummy to me. Definitely agree with the CV at night deal. I have a question though (read Qatol's post), who are we lynching? He/Rad I think suggested Day Vig'ing sidesprang and then lynching someone else? And what do we do in the case that no one picked Day Vig? Back to reading that essay -_- And when I die, I hope they read your name as the perpetrator who hath slain me. Just because I refuse to led around like a sheep? You go be sheep. I've also defended killing Qatol, which quite a few people jumped on that to say he should die, just based on role claims alone. Eh? Please appear less scummy to the green towny plz Darth. Thank you. Oh, and seriously, go look me up. I've been mafia once? I was silent the entire game. And every game I'm townie, I always say F the towns sheepness. I didn't bother replying with this because, we were moving on to move important things first of all, and his response didn't say anything except "this is how I play, Darth be less scummy plz." He sorta dodged the things I pointed out against him, but, once again, I didn't point this out because by the time I rechecked the thread, it would have been a waste of all of our times to reply. He's still suspicious to me, but you apparently have other concerns, so... No this is a decent argument other than the numbers thing. You really should have brought this up sooner. Next. My thoughts about Scamp were this: as someone pointed out (Radfield maybe?), Scamp was a bit sporadic in his finger pointing. My argument was that a normal mafia wouldn't do this, imo. Mafia want to throw attention onto other people/things, not attract attention by calling out several people without justification. That's why I said that Scamp might be more town to me. It was just a personal hunch though. If you guys feel strongly about Scamp, go with it.
Those alive:
2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3]
I think Rad is innocent. I think Qatol is most likely town as well. Zona/citi.zen I haven't really looked at. Scamp I kinda thought was innocent because of his finger pointing. I'm not sure about the [1]'s, but, looking at who we have left, one of the mafia might be among them. If I was mafia, I personally wouldn't have picked [1] except to deny L first pick, but they very well could've. So what I said earlier was just a possibility - the same way that Qatol's groups, though it's very likely that they work out, are not for certain.
I actually have to go now, so I'll post this now and finish up later >_>. Class ~
Out of your statements, you said earlier you are inclined to believe that hobbes and jeejee are the same alignment. Now you just eliminated myself and radfield. I'm just wondering who that leaves. Foolishness/Korynne/Falcynn, opz, scamp, and zona/citi.zen unless hobbes and jeejee are both mafia. And one of the situations which you say is unlikely to be true pretty much must be true. I've been thinking about the medic thing a bit more. You are obviously a decently smart player (protecting Radfield over Bill Murray), so I think we should leave claiming up to you. However, you need to decide whether you want to claim right now. This is because if we put a mafia up on the chopping block, they can just claim medic to out you anyways. Serial Killer may try to do it to save their skin as well. If you do it, the mafia may just crossclaim in order to make us waste a lynch on you anyways (less likely than the other two, but possible, considering the state the game is in). The only way a player does not claim medic when they are on the chopping block is if they are an innocent non-medic. So I propose this idea: we believe a roleclaim of medic for the next 10 hours. This allows the medic to separate himself or herself from those we are actively talking about on the chopping block if necessary. If no roleclaim is forthcoming, we do not believe any future roleclaims of medic. Do not roleclaim unless you deem it absolutely necessary. We don't want to lose you tonight if we can help it. Anyone disagree with this idea? I'm confused. Won't day be well over in 10 hours? If the medic is to claim they should do it before day ends so we have ample time to move votes around. After missing a lynch on the first day I don't think we can afford to do the same thing. I'm also against the idea of the medic claiming in general because they will just die next night. The other medic is already dead (copycat is dead too, although he was mafia), BM is gone so he can't invent anything for protection. Doesn't seem like there's any way for the medic to survive the night if the mafia figure out who it is. Just because Radfield took a hit doesn't mean there's a medic. He could be SK. In fact, I think it's more likely he's SK than there was a medic protection. If he really did take a hit, it makes more sense for him to just say "I took a hit last night" as opposed to "I took a hit, thanks medic". First, he's revealed to the mafia that there is a medic (assuming he's innocent), and second, given the diverse roles available, if he just says "I took a hit" then that still leaves ambiguity in what his role could be. It's possible he was saved by a medic, he could be a veteran, he could be bulletproof, BM could have invented something (although Ace didn't say anything). Also, what's to say there's a medic protecting him and not a Jack? After writing that last paragraph, this is actually quite fishy. Nobody else claimed to take a hit. Maybe he's the SK and chose NOT to hit someone to get credibility. Agreed - the medic claim plan does not make any sense to me.
On the Radfield issue - he would be taking a HUGE risk if he were the SK. There would likely be a medic out there knowing he lied. I don't see it.
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There's no way he could know there was a medic No, but he would have to think it possible and thus a risk - it does not seem worthwhile. Especially given how little doubt there was about him at the time - seems like overkill, draws a lot of attention, and requires missing out on killing someone. I highly doubt it would make sense.
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Yay, other people find korynne fishy too.
##vote korynne##korynne##
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On May 07 2010 07:57 Ace wrote: By the way, Bill Murray you'll be banned from future games for posting game relevant information after death. You should have known to keep your mouth shut. ROFL - Bill would NEVER do such a thang...
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Don't have a tone of time, but I think Radfield is right actually.
##vote DarthThienAn##
Qatol, thanks. You are making me feel better about arguing against you. I never wanted an invention that would keep the SK safe. I wanted something better than the DT kit. I liked JeeJee's proposal of a gun that would not kill townies. You know this. Keep it up though.
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On May 07 2010 09:03 Korynne wrote: I mean considering BM is pretty vet, he should know better I guess? xD And this is just funny. FYI - in Bill's first game he was a DT and posted after death the results of his check. He's not a vet and has never been well regarded by anyone. On the contrary, Ace previously vouched he'd ban him from all his future games.
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On May 07 2010 10:41 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 10:02 citi.zen wrote: Don't have a tone of time, but I think Radfield is right actually.
##vote DarthThienAn##
Qatol, thanks. You are making me feel better about arguing against you. I never wanted an invention that would keep the SK safe. I wanted something better than the DT kit. I liked JeeJee's proposal of a gun that would not kill townies. You know this. Keep it up though. Then why didn't you advocate making one even once? Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? (I assume rd=red here) Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 08:53 citi.zen wrote: Just invent the rd-only killing machine man. It's a kit + gun in one and cannot easily hurt the town. Could confuse us at most if given to a red, but I like the odds. Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:55 citi.zen wrote: Right: Ace, would we be allowed to invent a "device_that_only_kills_when_pointed_at_reds"? Is this game breaking or not? Anyways, I'll leave this alone until the lynch. We have other priorities. Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 10:05 Radfield wrote:On May 07 2010 10:02 ~OpZ~ wrote:On May 07 2010 08:22 Radfield wrote: The thing with Foolishness is, it doesn't really matter if he's town or mafia aligned. At some point his CV hits will become a dangerous detriment to the town and we'll have to lynch him just to stay alive. We also have to lynch him before it becomes possible for him and the mafia to make a double hit and gain a huge advantage.
Other than that we keep him alive for the extra kills until we're down to one mafia, then we lynch him. There's just no reason to have a CV with only one mafia around. or let him be mod killed for not killing...(Is that a bannable mod kill?!) We could just use that to our benefit....Ya dig? That's actually not a bad idea, although it really depends on the situation. There may be a time when we simply can't risk him being mafia and getting off a double kill. Umm Strategic modkill = nono unless Ace is moderating this WAY differently from every other host (which I highly doubt). Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 10:38 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 07 2010 09:50 Radfield wrote:Does foolishness always have this kind of attitude? (it doesn't sit well with me, not saying it's scummy. feels like ace, caller, bm, etc.) I agree, the cast majority of Foolishness' posts come across with a very aggressive tone. That's more metagame than anything pertinent though. @Darth Darth, let me be clear, I don't have a solid case against you like I did against Sidesprang. Here is why you strike me as scummy. If you're town you'll hopefully understand my reasoning, if you're mafia you'll know where you went wrong. Some of these points are stronger than others, none of them make any kind of case against you on their own. You missed the first vote, so did many people, but either way this is not a good sign. You contributed a lot early on when we weren't discussing mafia at all, and then your activity level plummeted once we got around to lynching and CVing. You point out a lot of obvious stuff in your early posts. You also do a lot of agreeing without a lot of adding your own suggestions. Lots of 'so what do we do next team', 'lets get a plan' You call out amnesia and Jspazz as scummy, both flip town.(again, none of these on their own are indicative of mafia on their own) You did NOT vote for Sidesprang. you're "inclined to think Scamp is town". And then THREE minutes later you waffle on it after a nothing comment by JSpazz On May 06 2010 11:53 DarthThienAn wrote: But Radfield brings up a really good point - multiple accusations and trying to stir up a kill seems a little scummy. BUT. If what BM says is true about last game, then that clears Scamp. Not to mention that the mass finger pointing seems a little TOO much for mafia. Mafia would try to lay low right? That or try to be all goodie goodie town town. I'm inclined to think Scamp is town.
On May 06 2010 11:53 johnnyspazz wrote: see, that's what scamp wants you to think so he can skate by
On May 06 2010 11:50 DarthThienAn wrote: O_o. That simple sentence makes me really confused about Scamp T_T... You're more recent posts are not in the Zbot and I don't feel like searching for more. These in a nutshell are why I think you're scum. Because you've talked so much, we would gain a lot of info from you flipping red. Also, the more I look through you're posts the scummier you look... I missed the first vote because time went fast and I was busy casting for CSL and forgot =[. It happens I guess. I'll admit that my activity level plummeted quite a bit. Part of the reason is that the weekend ended, so I spent less time on mafia than on the weekend obviously. Once we got down to concrete analysis, I had less to say, and only posted when I DID have something to say. Theorycrafting is easy for me, especially with numbers >_>. Analyzing posting behavior is hard, since I don't know any of you. I didn't realize that I pointed out obvious stuff and didn't contribute much =[. Guess I'll have to work on that. I called Amnesia out for being scummy on the fact that he was completely inactive and getting away with it. I called it scummy not necessarily because I thought he was mafia, but because I didn't want people to let him get away if he WAS mafia. I felt that my accusation on jspazz was merited - I mean, Qatol basically said: "let's pick between jspazz and JeeJee" and no one picked between them, so I did. sidesprang, I've been through several times. I think even those who voted for him could be suspicious. Whether or not you vote on a mafia is not an indication on your alignment, unless you are the one who starts it. Even the second or third person could be mafia. Again, my position on Scamp is really shaky. There's a fine line between mafia and TOO mafia. I was hoping that someone would analyze what I had said / agree with it, but jspazz throws out a nothing comment that accents my concerns instead - multiple reverse psychologies is possible, after all. Anyway, lynching me, town'll lose something. But I'll try to help out before my corpse offers you guys information. Any suggestions before I go? If you can't figure out what that means, please don't post, your thoughts aren't worth listening to at this point. Yes, please give us your honest impressions of as many people as you can before you die. I will make sure they are discussed after you die. Opz I know you had a longer post, but I wanted to take care of the quick stuff right now. You are intent on using semantics to distract from substantive issues.
Semantics: for most townies the SK is no different than a red, in that killing them is good. So whenever I say "reds" I include the SK.
The real issue: JeeJee made the suggestion we create something that was a DT kit + killing weapon that could not hurt the town. I immediately loved it - what townies wouldn't? It's so good, Zona even argued it would not be allowed, that it's game breaking like mafia-finding-bulltets. Yet you argued against it!
Most importantly - you know all this. This is a clear attempt on your part to distort the truth and fool other people in town into looking at me as a suspect. Maybe it will work, but even if it does, you will not look good if something were to happen to me. At any rate, I will now consider you most likely red. Yes, I include the SK under that heading.
##Vote compvig hit Qatol##
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On May 07 2010 12:30 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 11:40 citi.zen wrote:On May 07 2010 10:41 Qatol wrote:On May 07 2010 10:02 citi.zen wrote: Don't have a tone of time, but I think Radfield is right actually.
##vote DarthThienAn##
Qatol, thanks. You are making me feel better about arguing against you. I never wanted an invention that would keep the SK safe. I wanted something better than the DT kit. I liked JeeJee's proposal of a gun that would not kill townies. You know this. Keep it up though. Then why didn't you advocate making one even once? On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? (I assume rd=red here) On May 06 2010 08:53 citi.zen wrote: Just invent the rd-only killing machine man. It's a kit + gun in one and cannot easily hurt the town. Could confuse us at most if given to a red, but I like the odds. On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. On May 06 2010 12:55 citi.zen wrote: Right: Ace, would we be allowed to invent a "device_that_only_kills_when_pointed_at_reds"? Is this game breaking or not? Anyways, I'll leave this alone until the lynch. We have other priorities. On May 07 2010 10:05 Radfield wrote:On May 07 2010 10:02 ~OpZ~ wrote:On May 07 2010 08:22 Radfield wrote: The thing with Foolishness is, it doesn't really matter if he's town or mafia aligned. At some point his CV hits will become a dangerous detriment to the town and we'll have to lynch him just to stay alive. We also have to lynch him before it becomes possible for him and the mafia to make a double hit and gain a huge advantage.
Other than that we keep him alive for the extra kills until we're down to one mafia, then we lynch him. There's just no reason to have a CV with only one mafia around. or let him be mod killed for not killing...(Is that a bannable mod kill?!) We could just use that to our benefit....Ya dig? That's actually not a bad idea, although it really depends on the situation. There may be a time when we simply can't risk him being mafia and getting off a double kill. Umm Strategic modkill = nono unless Ace is moderating this WAY differently from every other host (which I highly doubt). On May 07 2010 10:38 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 07 2010 09:50 Radfield wrote:Does foolishness always have this kind of attitude? (it doesn't sit well with me, not saying it's scummy. feels like ace, caller, bm, etc.) I agree, the cast majority of Foolishness' posts come across with a very aggressive tone. That's more metagame than anything pertinent though. @Darth Darth, let me be clear, I don't have a solid case against you like I did against Sidesprang. Here is why you strike me as scummy. If you're town you'll hopefully understand my reasoning, if you're mafia you'll know where you went wrong. Some of these points are stronger than others, none of them make any kind of case against you on their own. You missed the first vote, so did many people, but either way this is not a good sign. You contributed a lot early on when we weren't discussing mafia at all, and then your activity level plummeted once we got around to lynching and CVing. You point out a lot of obvious stuff in your early posts. You also do a lot of agreeing without a lot of adding your own suggestions. Lots of 'so what do we do next team', 'lets get a plan' You call out amnesia and Jspazz as scummy, both flip town.(again, none of these on their own are indicative of mafia on their own) You did NOT vote for Sidesprang. you're "inclined to think Scamp is town". And then THREE minutes later you waffle on it after a nothing comment by JSpazz On May 06 2010 11:53 DarthThienAn wrote: But Radfield brings up a really good point - multiple accusations and trying to stir up a kill seems a little scummy. BUT. If what BM says is true about last game, then that clears Scamp. Not to mention that the mass finger pointing seems a little TOO much for mafia. Mafia would try to lay low right? That or try to be all goodie goodie town town. I'm inclined to think Scamp is town.
On May 06 2010 11:53 johnnyspazz wrote: see, that's what scamp wants you to think so he can skate by
On May 06 2010 11:50 DarthThienAn wrote: O_o. That simple sentence makes me really confused about Scamp T_T... You're more recent posts are not in the Zbot and I don't feel like searching for more. These in a nutshell are why I think you're scum. Because you've talked so much, we would gain a lot of info from you flipping red. Also, the more I look through you're posts the scummier you look... I missed the first vote because time went fast and I was busy casting for CSL and forgot =[. It happens I guess. I'll admit that my activity level plummeted quite a bit. Part of the reason is that the weekend ended, so I spent less time on mafia than on the weekend obviously. Once we got down to concrete analysis, I had less to say, and only posted when I DID have something to say. Theorycrafting is easy for me, especially with numbers >_>. Analyzing posting behavior is hard, since I don't know any of you. I didn't realize that I pointed out obvious stuff and didn't contribute much =[. Guess I'll have to work on that. I called Amnesia out for being scummy on the fact that he was completely inactive and getting away with it. I called it scummy not necessarily because I thought he was mafia, but because I didn't want people to let him get away if he WAS mafia. I felt that my accusation on jspazz was merited - I mean, Qatol basically said: "let's pick between jspazz and JeeJee" and no one picked between them, so I did. sidesprang, I've been through several times. I think even those who voted for him could be suspicious. Whether or not you vote on a mafia is not an indication on your alignment, unless you are the one who starts it. Even the second or third person could be mafia. Again, my position on Scamp is really shaky. There's a fine line between mafia and TOO mafia. I was hoping that someone would analyze what I had said / agree with it, but jspazz throws out a nothing comment that accents my concerns instead - multiple reverse psychologies is possible, after all. Anyway, lynching me, town'll lose something. But I'll try to help out before my corpse offers you guys information. Any suggestions before I go? If you can't figure out what that means, please don't post, your thoughts aren't worth listening to at this point. Yes, please give us your honest impressions of as many people as you can before you die. I will make sure they are discussed after you die. Opz I know you had a longer post, but I wanted to take care of the quick stuff right now. You are intent on using semantics to distract from substantive issues. Semantics: for most townies the SK is no different than a red, in that killing them is good. So whenever I say "reds" I include the SK. The real issue: JeeJee made the suggestion we create something that was a DT kit + killing weapon that could not hurt the town. I immediately loved it - what townies wouldn't? It's so good, Zona even argued it would not be allowed, that it's game breaking like mafia-finding-bulltets. Yet you argued against it! Most importantly - you know all this. This is a clear attempt on your part to distort the truth and fool other people in town into looking at me as a suspect. Maybe it will work, but even if it does, you will not look good if something were to happen to me. At any rate, I will now consider you most likely red. Yes, I include the SK under that heading. ##Vote compvig hit Qatol## And how do you think you're going to look if something happens to me? You have provided a nice diversion for the last day or so, but seriously. You have done nothing productive so far this game. Nothing at all. Hell, your argument doesn't even make sense. Come back when you can actually make a real argument that doesn't have a simple explanation. Okay, the serial killer is gone. Does that make you feel better about me yet? I'm the only living player that has led us to ANY dead mafia. Now let's just find out what Darth flips so we can make our next move. Ouch. More fine word-smithing.
For clarity, this is the post where I started the "diversion":
On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. That was the full initial post I made. Then you started to argue with me. You know this. The more you try to pretend this isn't what happened, the worse it looks. This just isn't Qatol-like.
Also, way to take credit for sidersprang's lynching now that Radfield is dead. In contrast to me, who has done absolutely nothing in this game, you actually tried to tell people what roles to pick; and tell medics to role-claim; and Bill to make weaker inventions than the ones other players thought were obviously so strong they could be game-breaking; and you led the charge to compvig johnnyspazz - thanks.
Enough "distractions", as you say.
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On May 07 2010 13:43 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 13:22 citi.zen wrote:On May 07 2010 12:30 Qatol wrote:On May 07 2010 11:40 citi.zen wrote:On May 07 2010 10:41 Qatol wrote:On May 07 2010 10:02 citi.zen wrote: Don't have a tone of time, but I think Radfield is right actually.
##vote DarthThienAn##
Qatol, thanks. You are making me feel better about arguing against you. I never wanted an invention that would keep the SK safe. I wanted something better than the DT kit. I liked JeeJee's proposal of a gun that would not kill townies. You know this. Keep it up though. Then why didn't you advocate making one even once? On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? (I assume rd=red here) On May 06 2010 08:53 citi.zen wrote: Just invent the rd-only killing machine man. It's a kit + gun in one and cannot easily hurt the town. Could confuse us at most if given to a red, but I like the odds. On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 08:22 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 07:50 Qatol wrote:On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. On May 06 2010 12:55 citi.zen wrote: Right: Ace, would we be allowed to invent a "device_that_only_kills_when_pointed_at_reds"? Is this game breaking or not? Anyways, I'll leave this alone until the lynch. We have other priorities. On May 07 2010 10:05 Radfield wrote:On May 07 2010 10:02 ~OpZ~ wrote:On May 07 2010 08:22 Radfield wrote: The thing with Foolishness is, it doesn't really matter if he's town or mafia aligned. At some point his CV hits will become a dangerous detriment to the town and we'll have to lynch him just to stay alive. We also have to lynch him before it becomes possible for him and the mafia to make a double hit and gain a huge advantage.
Other than that we keep him alive for the extra kills until we're down to one mafia, then we lynch him. There's just no reason to have a CV with only one mafia around. or let him be mod killed for not killing...(Is that a bannable mod kill?!) We could just use that to our benefit....Ya dig? That's actually not a bad idea, although it really depends on the situation. There may be a time when we simply can't risk him being mafia and getting off a double kill. Umm Strategic modkill = nono unless Ace is moderating this WAY differently from every other host (which I highly doubt). On May 07 2010 10:38 DarthThienAn wrote:On May 07 2010 09:50 Radfield wrote:Does foolishness always have this kind of attitude? (it doesn't sit well with me, not saying it's scummy. feels like ace, caller, bm, etc.) I agree, the cast majority of Foolishness' posts come across with a very aggressive tone. That's more metagame than anything pertinent though. @Darth Darth, let me be clear, I don't have a solid case against you like I did against Sidesprang. Here is why you strike me as scummy. If you're town you'll hopefully understand my reasoning, if you're mafia you'll know where you went wrong. Some of these points are stronger than others, none of them make any kind of case against you on their own. You missed the first vote, so did many people, but either way this is not a good sign. You contributed a lot early on when we weren't discussing mafia at all, and then your activity level plummeted once we got around to lynching and CVing. You point out a lot of obvious stuff in your early posts. You also do a lot of agreeing without a lot of adding your own suggestions. Lots of 'so what do we do next team', 'lets get a plan' You call out amnesia and Jspazz as scummy, both flip town.(again, none of these on their own are indicative of mafia on their own) You did NOT vote for Sidesprang. you're "inclined to think Scamp is town". And then THREE minutes later you waffle on it after a nothing comment by JSpazz On May 06 2010 11:53 DarthThienAn wrote: But Radfield brings up a really good point - multiple accusations and trying to stir up a kill seems a little scummy. BUT. If what BM says is true about last game, then that clears Scamp. Not to mention that the mass finger pointing seems a little TOO much for mafia. Mafia would try to lay low right? That or try to be all goodie goodie town town. I'm inclined to think Scamp is town.
On May 06 2010 11:53 johnnyspazz wrote: see, that's what scamp wants you to think so he can skate by
On May 06 2010 11:50 DarthThienAn wrote: O_o. That simple sentence makes me really confused about Scamp T_T... You're more recent posts are not in the Zbot and I don't feel like searching for more. These in a nutshell are why I think you're scum. Because you've talked so much, we would gain a lot of info from you flipping red. Also, the more I look through you're posts the scummier you look... I missed the first vote because time went fast and I was busy casting for CSL and forgot =[. It happens I guess. I'll admit that my activity level plummeted quite a bit. Part of the reason is that the weekend ended, so I spent less time on mafia than on the weekend obviously. Once we got down to concrete analysis, I had less to say, and only posted when I DID have something to say. Theorycrafting is easy for me, especially with numbers >_>. Analyzing posting behavior is hard, since I don't know any of you. I didn't realize that I pointed out obvious stuff and didn't contribute much =[. Guess I'll have to work on that. I called Amnesia out for being scummy on the fact that he was completely inactive and getting away with it. I called it scummy not necessarily because I thought he was mafia, but because I didn't want people to let him get away if he WAS mafia. I felt that my accusation on jspazz was merited - I mean, Qatol basically said: "let's pick between jspazz and JeeJee" and no one picked between them, so I did. sidesprang, I've been through several times. I think even those who voted for him could be suspicious. Whether or not you vote on a mafia is not an indication on your alignment, unless you are the one who starts it. Even the second or third person could be mafia. Again, my position on Scamp is really shaky. There's a fine line between mafia and TOO mafia. I was hoping that someone would analyze what I had said / agree with it, but jspazz throws out a nothing comment that accents my concerns instead - multiple reverse psychologies is possible, after all. Anyway, lynching me, town'll lose something. But I'll try to help out before my corpse offers you guys information. Any suggestions before I go? If you can't figure out what that means, please don't post, your thoughts aren't worth listening to at this point. Yes, please give us your honest impressions of as many people as you can before you die. I will make sure they are discussed after you die. Opz I know you had a longer post, but I wanted to take care of the quick stuff right now. You are intent on using semantics to distract from substantive issues. Semantics: for most townies the SK is no different than a red, in that killing them is good. So whenever I say "reds" I include the SK. The real issue: JeeJee made the suggestion we create something that was a DT kit + killing weapon that could not hurt the town. I immediately loved it - what townies wouldn't? It's so good, Zona even argued it would not be allowed, that it's game breaking like mafia-finding-bulltets. Yet you argued against it! Most importantly - you know all this. This is a clear attempt on your part to distort the truth and fool other people in town into looking at me as a suspect. Maybe it will work, but even if it does, you will not look good if something were to happen to me. At any rate, I will now consider you most likely red. Yes, I include the SK under that heading. ##Vote compvig hit Qatol## And how do you think you're going to look if something happens to me? You have provided a nice diversion for the last day or so, but seriously. You have done nothing productive so far this game. Nothing at all. Hell, your argument doesn't even make sense. Come back when you can actually make a real argument that doesn't have a simple explanation. Okay, the serial killer is gone. Does that make you feel better about me yet? I'm the only living player that has led us to ANY dead mafia. Now let's just find out what Darth flips so we can make our next move. Ouch. More fine word-smithing. For clarity, this is the post where I started the "diversion": On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote:On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote:On May 05 2010 23:34 Radfield wrote:I have to disagree with you Citizen, sidesprang was lynched because several things pointed to him being the mafia copycat. The only other real option was him being a very bad townie. But moving on. JeeJee has information right now that pretty much no one else does. i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here Now that sidesprang is gone, JeeJee is claiming that he tried for a role and failed to get it. Which means that someone above him has his role. He also is claiming that whoever that person is, is failing to use it in a pro-town manner. I've looked through the roles, and I really can't figure out which role he could be talking about though. DayVig is the only one that seems likely. As far as who might have the role? In my mind the options are Opz, Falcynn or Hobbes. Bm and Foolishness have inventor and CV, if Korynne was lying about her pick then Foolishness would have outted her, Qatol is almost certainly telling the truth about trying for CopyCat, and everyone else is dead. Another possibility is that Foolishness and Korynne are both mafia, but I think this unlikely. So JeeJee, if you truly think that whoever took your role is anti-town, then you should role claim, because you will likely lead us to a mafia. However, I leave the final judgement up to you, no point in outing a pro-town player's role. you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. That was the full initial post I made. Then you started to argue with me. You know this. The more you try to pretend this isn't what happened, the worse it looks. This just isn't Qatol-like. Also, way to take credit for sidersprang's lynching now that Radfield is dead. In contrast to me, who has done absolutely nothing in this game, you actually tried to tell people what roles to pick; and tell medics to role-claim; and Bill to make weaker inventions than the ones other players thought were obviously so strong they could be game-breaking; and you led the charge to compvig johnnyspazz - thanks. Enough "distractions", as you say. I still have a problem with a gun called a "silver bullet gun." Don't you? It doesn't have an obvious use that can be determined from its name. How the hell do you know what is Qatol-like? You have never played a game with me. You don't know anything about my play style. And don't try to tell me you have read previous games. They mean nothing when looking at my play style. I probably played the PM game more than just about any player. No more than a third of the posts I was making were actually said by me in the thread. Feel free to ask BC or Ver about it after the game. Yes, I told people what roles to pick so we can hold them responsible for their roles. I've done my part. Have you? I'm not taking full credit for sidesprang's lynch, but go check Radfield's posts. He was crediting me with a big part of the lynch as well. Do you know why? It's because without my copycat stuff, that lynch would not have been possible, at least not by that logic. As for the medic roleclaim, I was worried about lynching a medic. I even backed up on that stance ON MY OWN because I thought it through more carefully and realized we didn't have the time to make it work. And what "weaker" inventions are you talking about? Are you talking about the extra night lives when I wasn't clear on the role? Please do tell. You sure talk a lot of shit and you sure as hell aren't backing it up with any solid comments that haven't been explained already. I'm sick of this. Until you back up your comments with quotes and facts (which have not already been explained), I'm just not going to reply to your posts. You do not have anything relevant left to say. If you are scum, good job pissing me off. However, I think it is a lot more likely that you are just an idiot townie barking up the wrong tree. I don't know why you think that tone designed to make new players quiver would work, but hey, you probably thought it's worth a shot. In the interest of letting other conversations develop I will stop this.
You know my vote.
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I want to hear Zona's thoughts too.
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After Radfield claimed to be medic protected, the mafia knew for sure he was SK, correct? Is there any scenario under which they would not?
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Well if we have a mafia medic and a mafia jack on our hands, then I guess the mafia would know for sure that he was SK, bulletproof, or vet. What I think is more likely is that the mafia didn't know what was protecting Radfield from night hits. What they knew is that they took a shot at him and it was blocked. Then he turned around and found another one of their members. I'm not sure they shot him because they knew he was SK at all, they just didn't want him doing any more mafia hunting. I wasn't suggesting the mafia hit him because they knew he was SK - in fact they would not have done so, because of the bullet proof ability. I was wondering about Radfield's reaction afterwards - ie choosing to claim he was medic protected.
At first I wasn't even sure he even got hit (someone had suggested maybe he held off on a hit and claimed the hit just to get more credibility) - but that seems wrong. Double stacking on Bill by chance could have happened too, but again, then there was little reason to claim.
So Radfiled really did get hit by the mafia, and he killed Bill. Now, a pro-town player that gets hit would presumably announce it, so he had to say something if he wanted to try to remain undiscovered by the mafia. He could claim medic protection, veteran, or bullet-proof. All risky claims if there is someone else with that role around - and bullet proof makes people think of the SK anyway. So he went with the medic claim.
As Foolishness said before, the "right call" would have been to state ambiguously that he "took a hit".
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I will vote for Scamp. While I don't care too much for the numbers theory stuff, he was consistently, if somewhat softly defended by Darth. It seems in many posts he was trying to see "fair" but always though in the end Scamp was innocent. So why not.
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LOL @ foolish(ness).
So... with Zona red I am more inclined to think Qatol is town. Not sure who I like as red and on weekends I always have less time. Opz seems like a good candidate, and am OK lynching foolishness too.
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On May 09 2010 06:29 Qatol wrote:Could you contribute more on secondary suspects at some point please? It doesn't have to be now, but it has to be before the next day post. Oh, and ##vote OpZ## Yup, after the lynching.
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I don't know Qatol - if you were really the great town scum-hunter you would have been hit instead of JeeJee last night. After all, JeeJee had gone after Scamp and seemed pretty harmless. Now you are suggesting the mafia will hit me next, because of the all powerful "numbers theory". Then you want to kill Foolishness. So you'd be left with people who don't question you, in a nice end game you can control.
Maybe you are town aligned, and you really think the mafia would never think their number selection would be analyzed. Maybe your plan is good. Maybe we should follow it. I am ok with that - right after you flip green.
##Vote Qatol##
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On May 09 2010 11:50 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 11:33 citi.zen wrote: I don't know Qatol - if you were really the great town scum-hunter you would have been hit instead of JeeJee last night. After all, JeeJee had gone after Scamp and seemed pretty harmless. Now you are suggesting the mafia will hit me next, because of the all powerful "numbers theory". Then you want to kill Foolishness. So you'd be left with people who don't question you, in a nice end game you can control.
Maybe you are town aligned, and you really think the mafia would never think their number selection would be analyzed. Maybe your plan is good. Maybe we should follow it. I am ok with that - right after you flip green.
##Vote Qatol## I'm sorry you feel that way. Why would I have been hit last night? JeeJee was basically confirmed innocent already. You have been trying to get me lynched for 2 game days now. Why should the mafia hit someone when the town will waste a lynch on them on the next day anyways? If it had really been my plan to get rid of people who question me, don't you think I would have offed you sooner? I don't understand how you think I'm playing such a deep game; I guess I am the most amazing player to ever play this game for me to have had the foresight to see this endgame coming. I'll just take your attitude as a compliment. Whatever. I don't believe this change in voting matters anyways. We already reached majority. Unless Ace has changed his voting policy from WAW, your change in vote doesn't change anything. You can try to get me CompVigi'd at night if you wish, but I guarantee to you that it will be a waste. It really is a compliment. There are few people I would be this paranoid over.
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On May 09 2010 13:55 ~OpZ~ wrote: I dunno....
Check the citizenvsqatol mafia support....In the archive... Well, I was so wrong in this game, it's not even funny. Real life meant I haven't had the time to dedicate to the game so I tried to play based no partial information and "instinct". Turns out I can't do that.
I thought Radfield was town, and that there was no way he could be SK. Score!
I kept acting like a basket-case on Qatol: I hated his "numbers theory" arguments (which fared pretty damn well thus far), as well as the regimented suggestion of who should pick what roles. When I saw this post it fit so well with my views I was pretty sure Zona was town:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2010 05:08 Zona wrote:I'm glad someone's stepping up with the first proposals for the town. Yet once again, in yet another game, I have to take issues with the blind spots in the plan, as well as the "I declare it, thus it must be so" tone and mindset. Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 14:09 Qatol wrote: I want the town to deny the mafia the most powerful roles or at the very least control their use. We can't stop the mafia from taking roles to increase their KP, but we can still control who gets what role and try to keep the mafia away from the 3 most important ones: Inventor, Compulsive Vigilante, and Role Blocker. Why are these roles especially important? The first 2 provide the mafia with kill power EVERY NIGHT. The third one allows the mafia flexibility to get around this plan. I think it's clear to everyone that Inventor and Compulsive Vigilante are by far the most powerful and influential roles in the game, so it's no surprise when you mention them, but I find it curious you lump the roleblocker with them. The roleblocker is a very weak role for town, and while it can be useful for mafia, there are far better picks for them. The only critical situation where I see mafia really wanting the roleblocker is to counter a vocal pro-town bulletproof player, as they will have no other way to get rid of them. It's true that the roleblocker can shut down a town power role, even perhaps the compulsive vig or inventor, but don't overestimate the importance of having such roles active for the town. A compulsive town vig will likely hit a lot of town anyways, and depending on which plan the town inventor follows (night-protect vests, investigate kits, etc), it's similar to a medic, or a cop. To be honest a town inventor might get more mileage out of more wild ideas than the ones presented so far. Still, this is just a relatively minor issue I have with your plan. Show nested quote +On May 01 2010 15:19 Qatol wrote: There are several roles which are very important for someone to pick up this game. These roles are (in no particular order): The information roles - Tracker, Alignment Cop, Role Cop The hit-related roles - Medic, Meth Dealer, Veteran, Bulletproof Other - Copy Cat It is very important that we have at least the threat of these roles out there. With this in mind, I'm arguing that if you are near the bottom of the list, you should think very hard about selecting one of these roles. More importantly is the lack of focus on town grabbing powers that are important to town success. Particularly, investigative roles (tracker, alignment cop) that are very important for town. Now you mention that these are "very important" in your post but then ask that those near the bottom try to get them? Shouldn't players in the middle or even higher up aim to snag these? Your proposal seems focused on denying powers to mafia, which is a good thing. But that's only HALF the story, and missing the important other half: grabbing essential powers for the town. Without investigative roles on the town's side, the town's chances of winning are very low. When I was digging through statistics of played games when trying to ensure that the balance in Micro-MAFIA was as best as it could be - I found something very striking. In the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was shown to be mafia favored. And it's striking how many games are lost for town when the cop dies early on. This showed me that investigative powers are core to a town's success. In fact, given the unknown sanity on the alignment cop - the tracker is likely the most powerful investigative role in the game. This is really why I don't like how you list roleblocker as the third thing for town to grab - when tracker and alignment cop are far more important for town members high up in the draft order to choose. It's all good to deny the mafia strong powers - I agree this is important. But if town gets denied the investigative powers, it will be very difficult to identify the right targets to lynch, unless you are banking on scum making mistakes. But I'll reiterate - in the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was found to be mafia favored. Town needs the investigative powers. Getting investigative powers is as important, if not moreso, than denying mafia killing powers. So focusing on the latter misses at least half of the picture. Finally, I really dislike how you make a declaration as if your proposal is the only one to be followed, and make statements as extreme as "we will immediately lynch you" if someone steps out of line - especially when your plan is flawed. As well, if the top draft order people actually do listen to you, then they've basically claimed their role day 1, making it a lot easier for the mafia to take steps to mitigate their power. A major part of the mafia's game plan is to identify which players have the power roles which are a threat to them - your plan does that for them. I'd rather players make their picks in secret, and only claim when necessary. This keeps the mafia guessing as to who has what power, and who is really a threat to them. Summary and a proposed alternative:Qatol's plan focuses mainly on denying mafia powers (the good part) and misses the boat on grabbing essential town powers, such as investigative roles (the bad part). While he does mention the "importance" of various roles to the town, the way he asks players to pick does not put any real emphasis on getting such roles. Also, he wants certain players to pick certain roles - so if his plan is followed, it's clear to the mafia who owns what powers. Alternative, better proposal: Follow Qatol's emphasis on the compulsive vig and inventor roles, but not the roleblocker. Include the tracker and alignment cop in the "group of important roles". Do not follow Qatol's plan of person x in the draft order picks role y. Instead, if you are a town player high in the draft order, go for one of these, but don't make it obvious which one you have, so it's harder for mafia to arrange their plans on how to deal with these powers. While it's a risk that certain players in the draft order won't get their pick if not all the picks are laid out beforehand, that risk applies to mafia too. If town members DID in fact follow the plan and picked the role that they were told to, mafia can also pick roles without fear of being bumped into vanilla. Given this horrid track record it's clear that my instincts suck. I need to play with my head or not play at all.
Now we have: myself, Foolishness, Falcynn, Korynne, Qatol and soon to be dead OpZ. I would like to believe Qatol is the red so I can somehow be vindicated, but rationally I don't see it given his exchanges with Darth, Zona and others early on. Don't lynch Qatol.
This leaves three people: Falcynn, Foolishness and Korynne. Foolishness can't shoot himself, so killing Falcynn should be fine.
Very slowly, but I guess I finally got to where Qatol / Korynne were two pages ago. Sorry for playing so badly.
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On May 10 2010 02:16 Qatol wrote: Okay I reread the archives 1 more time quickly. I still think Foolishness is the last mafia, but because I have to pick between Korynne and Falcynn, I think I'm going to have to go with Falcynn. Why? Because there is a risk that he has Jack of All Trades and wins tonight if we do not hit him. While I actually think Korynne is the slightly more suspicious player, I just can't take that risk right now. So ## CompVig Falcynn## If citi.zen has a compelling reason to vote for Korynne instead, I'm okay with going for that. Sorry, I'm just running out of time today. I MIGHT be back in time for the day post (I should be back sometime between midnight and 1am EST) but I don't want to gamble with it. I do not. I am OK hitting Falcynn.
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It figures. I hate you for making me read through this thread tomorrow. And good job.
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Waw, good posts Foolishness.
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If you are red korynne you are incredibly awesome. I mean... from the post about the roleblocker to the choice of 5 as your second number when all reds thus far chose 1 - it would all have to be an amazingly deep game. And if I go there I can persuade myself of anything ( hello Qatol).
Foolishness on the other hand I can easily see as red. From the first post about qatol crying after he got outsmarted to the last two posts, leaving himself room to vote for me if korynne will - it's all pretty scummy.
I'll take the simple explanation for once.
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Oh, I didn't mention foolishness ' defense. Qatol asked for zonal and Hobbes to be killed. In red letters. I have no idea how you can ever try to take credit again and again. You merely went along with what seemed inevitable.
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On May 10 2010 22:40 Korynne wrote: Well I'm confirmed green since I didn't vote for Foolishness. So Foolishness, do you have any argument for citizen or should I hammer you now? Of course, this means nothing.
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On May 08 2010 18:18 Korynne wrote: Also, Bill posting that would be pertinent to whether there was a roleblocker no?
We could all be sitting around saying omg did he get roleblocked for half a day... And probably came to the conclusion that there must be a roleblocker because why would BM not invent something? So then something regarding me or Foolishness being lynched probably because of that. Or at least some kind of using the fact that roleblocker was taken into consideration for lynching. Yes, it's out of thread. But it did happen. What do you two think about it?
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When I saw that roleblocker passage I actually thought a red would never mention the possibility openly. Making Korynne rather unlikely to be red.
Not going to change my vote. Looking forward to seeing the flip tonight!
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You are far from confirmed, but I do think Foolishness is more likely to be red. We will soon see.
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You are right - I had forgotten about the "day ends when majority is reached" rule. Good. I made the right choice.
GG Foolishness and well done Korynne.
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On May 11 2010 04:59 Korynne wrote: You're the one that hastily correctly voted for Foolishness xD. There. My work here is done.
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In retrospect, Ace should have waited until after the game to add Bill to the ban list. He sort of compounded the problem by immediately drawing attention to it.
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Korynne, there is no case he can make.
He let me live because Qatol was about to vote for him anyway, as he states above. I was finally comfortable trusting Qatol, after going through 100x complicated scenarios where he was red. In the end it just didn't make sense to think his early game conversations with Zona and Darth were staged - they were too long and detailed. There was no reason for the mafia to go through that trouble and risk making mistakes - it never happens like that. So me + Qatol alive = Foolishness dead. He also knew in my first post, and a few times afterwards I picked on you, so he figured he'd have a good chance convincing me.
I also think you are right about the day ending when it does - look at the dialog between me and Qatol before we lynched Scamp (I think) - I tried to change my vote but it was too late.
I am not in a hurry to lynch Foolishness. Just make the right call in the end though.
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On May 11 2010 10:22 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 10:10 Korynne wrote: You make a huge post on why you think I'm definitely mafia and then say, well... maybe citizen can be mafia. >_>
I mean sure mafia could pick 1,5 but that's pretty lame since it pushes you farther down the line (haha I have no idea why any of the rest of us picked non-1s for the first digit xD, maybe I would've gotten compvig if I picked 1,1 xD). All mafia picked [1] so it seems reasonable for you to be [1][1].
You keep stating compvig is so easy to keep track of but then refuse to let me have it...
It just all seems so inconsistent Foolishness... I think I have to agree with citi.zen, you're done. I just don't know anymore. You brought up points against citizen. I'm just trying to consider everything here. You make more sense to be mafia than citizen, but after pouring out reason after reason why I'm innocent I'm pretty much demoralized over here. I'm still keeping my vote on you. I still don't see what the second number has to do with this. Given that L and BM both claimed to pick 1,1 ahead of time, I think it makes sense to pick 1,5, since it will shoot you ahead if multiple people took 1,1. I said compvig was easy to keep track of after the roles went out, not before. I only half expected it to get it since BM said he didn't want Inventor. I'm just trying to figure everything out. One of you is mafia, and based on just today's posts, citizen looks much more guilty than you. Nice try, but 1/1 makes perfect sense for one of the reds: it's a portfolio approach, where some people will be more aggressive and others less so. You don't care which as long as in the end you get SOME high picks. What does not make sense if for me and Zona to pick 12 as the first number. You both know this.
Look, I can't blame you for trying Foolishness. You might as well. But I honestly don't see how this desperate flopping can help. A+ for effort though.
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On May 11 2010 10:10 Korynne wrote: You make a huge post on why you think I'm definitely mafia and then say, well... maybe citizen can be mafia. >_>
I mean sure mafia could pick 1,5 but that's pretty lame since it pushes you farther down the line (haha I have no idea why any of the rest of us picked non-1s for the first digit xD, maybe I would've gotten compvig if I picked 1,1 xD). All mafia picked [1] so it seems reasonable for you to be [1][1].
You keep stating compvig is so easy to keep track of but then refuse to let me have it...
It just all seems so inconsistent Foolishness... I think I have to agree with citi.zen, you're done. I don't know why you are trying to persuade him you are not red. You know you aren't - it's all that matters.
As for him... he is red. It's obvious he's desperate. Look at his posts today vs. the rest of the game. Do YOU remember when I accused you Korynne? I bet you do, since you replied in detail. He supposedly didn't notice - so it couldn't have had anything to with keeping me alive. Right.
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What I want to know is how it happened that nobody picked tracker/alignment cop/DT in this game.
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On May 11 2010 10:35 Korynne wrote: Actually no, if people pick [1][1], [1][1], [1][5] they all go to the back of the line. And the [1][5] is behind the [1][1]s. I feel like you keep bringing up points that are wrong in hopes that I don't know they are wrong...
Well this is all very frustrating... if citi.zen turns out mafia I will be very pissed. >_>
But like Foolishness first you accuse me like crazy, and then now it's like when you realize it doesn't work to convince citi.zen, you're going to attack me instead. And you're playing the like, frustrated townie role... =\ Rigt: 1/5 does not make sense. The reds knew this and all picked x/1s. Both Zona and Foolishness are pretty awesome at this game. In fact, were it not for Zona's mod-kill, they would have most likely won.
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On May 11 2010 10:40 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 10:30 citi.zen wrote:On May 11 2010 10:22 Foolishness wrote:On May 11 2010 10:10 Korynne wrote: You make a huge post on why you think I'm definitely mafia and then say, well... maybe citizen can be mafia. >_>
I mean sure mafia could pick 1,5 but that's pretty lame since it pushes you farther down the line (haha I have no idea why any of the rest of us picked non-1s for the first digit xD, maybe I would've gotten compvig if I picked 1,1 xD). All mafia picked [1] so it seems reasonable for you to be [1][1].
You keep stating compvig is so easy to keep track of but then refuse to let me have it...
It just all seems so inconsistent Foolishness... I think I have to agree with citi.zen, you're done. I just don't know anymore. You brought up points against citizen. I'm just trying to consider everything here. You make more sense to be mafia than citizen, but after pouring out reason after reason why I'm innocent I'm pretty much demoralized over here. I'm still keeping my vote on you. I still don't see what the second number has to do with this. Given that L and BM both claimed to pick 1,1 ahead of time, I think it makes sense to pick 1,5, since it will shoot you ahead if multiple people took 1,1. I said compvig was easy to keep track of after the roles went out, not before. I only half expected it to get it since BM said he didn't want Inventor. I'm just trying to figure everything out. One of you is mafia, and based on just today's posts, citizen looks much more guilty than you. Nice try, but 1/1 makes perfect sense for one of the reds: it's a portfolio approach, where some people will be more aggressive and others less so. You don't care which as long as in the end you get SOME high picks. What does not make sense if for me and Zona to pick 12 as the first number. You both know this. Look, I can't blame you for trying Foolishness. You might as well. But I honestly don't see how this desperate flopping can help. A+ for effort though. I don't see how it's much different from picking 1,1. Either way you're going to be up high. And you and Zona both picking 12 is very unlikely, that's why I originally said you were not mafia. I'm leaving my vote on Korynne. Although imagining what your face is going to be like when I turn up innocent makes me smile. If you turn up innocent I will smile too: Korynne will officially be my new favorite mafia player. Ever. MVP in perpetuity.
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On May 11 2010 10:43 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 10:35 Korynne wrote: Actually no, if people pick [1][1], [1][1], [1][5] they all go to the back of the line. And the [1][5] is behind the [1][1]s. I feel like you keep bringing up points that are wrong in hopes that I don't know they are wrong...
Well this is all very frustrating... if citi.zen turns out mafia I will be very pissed. >_>
But like Foolishness first you accuse me like crazy, and then now it's like when you realize it doesn't work to convince citi.zen, you're going to attack me instead. And you're playing the like, frustrated townie role... =\ Actually you have it wrong, I asked Ace on the first or second page go look. In that scenario, the 1,5 goes first, then the 1,1's after. How would me bringing up points that are wrong possibly help me here? I guess I am in a desperate situation here, but I'm not one to fabricate information in the hopes of tricking someone. Yeah, I feel for you too. I'm only desperate because I feel like I've proven my innocence, but I clearly haven't, and I don't know what else I can say. I'm still saying you are mafia because the numbers thing doesn't make sense with citizen. But I'll give you that your attitude is much more towny than citizens. Nice ambivalent statement to saw more doubt about me in Korynne's mind about me: I don't think he's red, but he's acting pretty red! Duh.
Look, it's obvious Foolishness would vote for either me or Korynne if one of us switched. He doesn't care which one, he just needs one of us to budge. I can tell you I will not. You should have killed me last night.
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On May 11 2010 12:07 Korynne wrote: Hah, I knew it (Foolishness stealing CompVig from me). Yay town wins! =D
*dancedance*
Sorry I couldn't live up to your expectations citi.zen. =( You did well and voted correctly in the end. Great job!
On May 11 2010 12:31 Ace wrote: Well look at it like this:
Read over the Game on Day 1 and 2. Qatol was ASSIGNING roles - that's like blatant anti-town activity. You guys know nothing of his alignment, and then you willingly followed it? Nevermind that it's possible 3 people are going to be picking ahead of you. Scum also had the chance to say they know nothing of you or Qatol's alignment and you're buddying up to put a powerful role in someone's hands. Even if Qatol is scum and you were Mafia he'd have the perfect chance to call shots on who the CV hits as long as it isn't a scumbuddy. So many ways to just cause a big ruckus on Day 1 but Scum didn't pick up on it.
Then it happened AGAIN with the CC situation. Sidesprang didn't even claim which sucked for scum but oh well. There were like 5 people before SS on the list, all claimed Vanilla. That means they all are telling the truth and ALL of them missed investigation roles or they are lying. Either way both of these scenarios don't mean SS = scum. Even if they are true SS can just say he didn't trust Qatol with the role and took it. Doesn't mean he is scum.
Basically instead of trying to punish the town for tying picking order and role picks to alignment, the scum just sat back and let it ride. Town has no information roles and are making logical correct arguments that have tons of loopholes. If Zona would have pardoned SS(he didn't because SS didn't show up) or Darth then he also had a great argument to back him up. Likewise Foolishness could have told the town to shove it, and he'd kill whoever he wanted to after it was obvious he was CV. Town kept outting their own power roles (why?) so then he could have slammed you even further for trying to force him to RC when he didn't have to.
So many ways to destroy the town but they seemed to be thinking like Scum and not thinking like Town. Yes, there were many confusing plays, which is partly why I acted so skizoid on Qatol all game. Zona correctly called him on his role assignment/number claim ideas (Zona could have had me vote his way at any time based on those early days - what he said made a lot more sense than Qatol's plans to me). At the same time, Qatol's number analysis was brilliant. The effect was a mix of respect and paranoia towards Qatol. To try to dig out more I purposely argued with him on anything for a while... but still couldn't make up my mind for good until Zona turned up red. Sorry Qatol!
On May 11 2010 12:42 Korynne wrote: Hmmm... good points Ace.
I definitely agree that Zona's modkill lost mafia the game. I don't buy Foolishness' argument for himself based on the fact that he brought up the inactivity (I didn't even notice people's inactivity really, seems like mafia would notice it more).
Also like wtf no information roles. xD My issue with that claim was that it was Qatol who brought it up. Foolishness merely tried to take credit for it.
On May 11 2010 12:45 Ace wrote: Yea Foolishness I have a question...why didn't you vote for citizen? Soon as he voted for you and Korynne DIDN'T vote but posted you should have tried to sympathize. She said "this obviously makes me innocent because I could hammer and end the game now". If you took that point seriously and voted on citizen you might have had a shot.
He figured I had already changed my mind 100x times this game, so I'd be the easier person to sway to his cause. Too bad I was actually pretty sure about this one.
Believe it or not, Bill's slip-up and Ace's ban follow-up played a big role for me, as stated before. I just could not see a mafia with the 3rd draft pick bring up the roleblocker story - it's SO much safer to just stay quiet.
Anyway, GG everyone, I will take a break from mafia since the next few weeks will be crazy for me. It's been fun, thanks Ace.
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On May 11 2010 13:02 flamewheel91 wrote:Nooo don't leave citi.zen Cough cough he's going to be playing SCII Beta... Also I'm watching your gameplay Qatol :3 It's not SC2, it's wrapping things up on a few projects at work + baby being born any day now, so I'd get mod killed or not have time anyway. No worries, I shall return.
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As I mentioned in the actual game, I spent a great deal of time deciding between who to kill at night. citizen hadn't claimed a role so I was paranoid he might be a veteran/bulletproof, so I decided against hitting him. Even if I had hit him, Qatol said he had a nice analysis of me, and I figure I'd have a better shot with citizen who wasn't about to post some big analysis of me. Yup, I did not roleclaim precisely because I though ambiguity would keep the mafia guessing a bit longer.
In truth, I was an idiot and never submitted any picks to Ace. I didn't read the rules, instead assuming everyone got a role and I'd just get what's left from the role list.
On May 11 2010 13:47 Qatol wrote: Either way, it was fun. I probably won't play again for a while (defending myself for that long was just exhausting and totally sapped my will to play - that post to citi.zen about being pissed off was 100% serious) but it will fun to see a few of the players from this game develop. There were a few players who played very well. Interesting things happen when you put pressure on people: some make mistakes, others are very eager to take sides, etc. In general lively conversation is good, and I've never been afraid to stir things up a bit. Your plans always seemed like a mix of genius with something evil, so figured I'd start with you!
And Radfield - good job man. Up to that medic protection claim you did better than anyone.
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On May 11 2010 14:52 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 14:44 citi.zen wrote:As I mentioned in the actual game, I spent a great deal of time deciding between who to kill at night. citizen hadn't claimed a role so I was paranoid he might be a veteran/bulletproof, so I decided against hitting him. Even if I had hit him, Qatol said he had a nice analysis of me, and I figure I'd have a better shot with citizen who wasn't about to post some big analysis of me. Yup, I did not roleclaim precisely because I though ambiguity would keep the mafia guessing a bit longer. In truth, I was an idiot and never submitted any picks to Ace. I didn't read the rules, instead assuming everyone got a role and I'd just get what's left from the role list. On May 11 2010 13:47 Qatol wrote: Either way, it was fun. I probably won't play again for a while (defending myself for that long was just exhausting and totally sapped my will to play - that post to citi.zen about being pissed off was 100% serious) but it will fun to see a few of the players from this game develop. There were a few players who played very well. Interesting things happen when you put pressure on people: some make mistakes, others are very eager to take sides, etc. In general lively conversation is good, and I've never been afraid to stir things up a bit. Your plans always seemed like a mix of genius with something evil, so figured I'd start with you! And Radfield - good job man. Up to that medic protection claim you did better than anyone. Yeah but there is a point where pretty much anyone will slip up at least a little. You were nitpicking pretty small stuff for literally days on end. I was playing as much pro-town as I possibly could and you were still finding little things to yell at me about. I agree that conversations are a good thing, but I didn't like your method for provoking it very much. I agree that there were totally loopholes in my plans that I could have been exploiting (like if I were mafia, the numbers theory could have been used to help the mafia instead of hurting them), but I put myself into the spotlight far too readily and I'd like to think I didn't really break down too much. After a while, you are just derailing the thread. Agreed - when you are offering a lot it's impossible not to slip here and there. Then again, with good players, these are exactly the sort of things you need to watch out for. You, Ace, Incognito, must always seem pro-town, even if you are red - you chose the way of the Jedi. Someone like L or Caller use the dark side of the force and play a different style altogether - a dose of nonsense is par for the course.
On my side though, a big problem this time around was that I did not have enough time to carefully build my arguments / think the big picture through, so I can see how it was frustrating arguing with me. Sorry for that.
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On May 11 2010 16:09 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 15:02 citi.zen wrote:On May 11 2010 14:52 Qatol wrote:On May 11 2010 14:44 citi.zen wrote:As I mentioned in the actual game, I spent a great deal of time deciding between who to kill at night. citizen hadn't claimed a role so I was paranoid he might be a veteran/bulletproof, so I decided against hitting him. Even if I had hit him, Qatol said he had a nice analysis of me, and I figure I'd have a better shot with citizen who wasn't about to post some big analysis of me. Yup, I did not roleclaim precisely because I though ambiguity would keep the mafia guessing a bit longer. In truth, I was an idiot and never submitted any picks to Ace. I didn't read the rules, instead assuming everyone got a role and I'd just get what's left from the role list. On May 11 2010 13:47 Qatol wrote: Either way, it was fun. I probably won't play again for a while (defending myself for that long was just exhausting and totally sapped my will to play - that post to citi.zen about being pissed off was 100% serious) but it will fun to see a few of the players from this game develop. There were a few players who played very well. Interesting things happen when you put pressure on people: some make mistakes, others are very eager to take sides, etc. In general lively conversation is good, and I've never been afraid to stir things up a bit. Your plans always seemed like a mix of genius with something evil, so figured I'd start with you! And Radfield - good job man. Up to that medic protection claim you did better than anyone. Yeah but there is a point where pretty much anyone will slip up at least a little. You were nitpicking pretty small stuff for literally days on end. I was playing as much pro-town as I possibly could and you were still finding little things to yell at me about. I agree that conversations are a good thing, but I didn't like your method for provoking it very much. I agree that there were totally loopholes in my plans that I could have been exploiting (like if I were mafia, the numbers theory could have been used to help the mafia instead of hurting them), but I put myself into the spotlight far too readily and I'd like to think I didn't really break down too much. After a while, you are just derailing the thread. Agreed - when you are offering a lot it's impossible not to slip here and there. Then again, with good players, these are exactly the sort of things you need to watch out for. You, Ace, Incognito, must always seem pro-town, even if you are red - you chose the way of the Jedi. Someone like L or Caller use the dark side of the force and play a different style altogether - a dose of nonsense is par for the course. On my side though, a big problem this time around was that I did not have enough time to carefully build my arguments / think the big picture through, so I can see how it was frustrating arguing with me. Sorry for that. Oh speaking of which, what style exactly did you think was Qatol-like? You kept accusing me of not acting like myself. (Btw, that is the hardest accusation in the WORLD to refute. How do you prove that you are playing like yourself?) I just meant that I did not expect you to make what I thought were a good deal of mistakes. Starting with openly telling people what roles to choose. Perhaps these were not mistakes in your view, but to me they were not exactly pro-town moves either. Ace, L and others seem to agree. The invention conversations were another issue. It just seemed like you were trying to control the flow of the game but doing so in a way which could be consistent with what the mafia wanted. So the "style" comment was mostly about consistency and what I thought were mistakes.
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On May 11 2010 20:24 Ace wrote: I'll host this setup after all other games are concluded. Also next time I will give Mafia 2KP. ~1 week was around the time I wanted this game to last and with 18 players + modkills on 1 KP it happened. So next time I'll give scum 2KP.
Any other comments and suggestions about this setup are welcome.
So far Qatol advocates Mad Hatters which means Meth Man has to be taken out.
Inventor is right now looking like it will be scrapped.
Don't ask for Bus Drivers because I won't put those in ^_^ Adding a traitor might be good fun.
I usually like hatters better than the meth-man, but in this set-up I am bit concerned that if the mafia got that role + have 2KP + some other KP role, the combination would be extremely imbalanced. Maybe the hatter could have a single bomb - but that is awful close to the vengeful player.
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On May 12 2010 01:40 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 20:21 citi.zen wrote: On May 11 2010 16:09 Qatol wrote:On May 11 2010 15:02 citi.zen wrote:On May 11 2010 14:52 Qatol wrote:On May 11 2010 14:44 citi.zen wrote:As I mentioned in the actual game, I spent a great deal of time deciding between who to kill at night. citizen hadn't claimed a role so I was paranoid he might be a veteran/bulletproof, so I decided against hitting him. Even if I had hit him, Qatol said he had a nice analysis of me, and I figure I'd have a better shot with citizen who wasn't about to post some big analysis of me. Yup, I did not roleclaim precisely because I though ambiguity would keep the mafia guessing a bit longer. In truth, I was an idiot and never submitted any picks to Ace. I didn't read the rules, instead assuming everyone got a role and I'd just get what's left from the role list. On May 11 2010 13:47 Qatol wrote: Either way, it was fun. I probably won't play again for a while (defending myself for that long was just exhausting and totally sapped my will to play - that post to citi.zen about being pissed off was 100% serious) but it will fun to see a few of the players from this game develop. There were a few players who played very well. Interesting things happen when you put pressure on people: some make mistakes, others are very eager to take sides, etc. In general lively conversation is good, and I've never been afraid to stir things up a bit. Your plans always seemed like a mix of genius with something evil, so figured I'd start with you! And Radfield - good job man. Up to that medic protection claim you did better than anyone. Yeah but there is a point where pretty much anyone will slip up at least a little. You were nitpicking pretty small stuff for literally days on end. I was playing as much pro-town as I possibly could and you were still finding little things to yell at me about. I agree that conversations are a good thing, but I didn't like your method for provoking it very much. I agree that there were totally loopholes in my plans that I could have been exploiting (like if I were mafia, the numbers theory could have been used to help the mafia instead of hurting them), but I put myself into the spotlight far too readily and I'd like to think I didn't really break down too much. After a while, you are just derailing the thread. Agreed - when you are offering a lot it's impossible not to slip here and there. Then again, with good players, these are exactly the sort of things you need to watch out for. You, Ace, Incognito, must always seem pro-town, even if you are red - you chose the way of the Jedi. Someone like L or Caller use the dark side of the force and play a different style altogether - a dose of nonsense is par for the course. On my side though, a big problem this time around was that I did not have enough time to carefully build my arguments / think the big picture through, so I can see how it was frustrating arguing with me. Sorry for that. Oh speaking of which, what style exactly did you think was Qatol-like? You kept accusing me of not acting like myself. (Btw, that is the hardest accusation in the WORLD to refute. How do you prove that you are playing like yourself?) I just meant that I did not expect you to make what I thought were a good deal of mistakes. Starting with openly telling people what roles to choose. Perhaps these were not mistakes in your view, but to me they were not exactly pro-town moves either. Ace, L and others seem to agree. The invention conversations were another issue. It just seemed like you were trying to control the flow of the game but doing so in a way which could be consistent with what the mafia wanted. So the "style" comment was mostly about consistency and what I thought were mistakes. I see. Btw people are a bit more split on the controlling the first few roles than you might think. Incognito is telling me that he would have done what I did too. The only role I definitely shouldn't have done anything about was telling Scamp to take medic. That was a mistake. I still think that if we hadn't controlled CompVig the way we did, it would have come back to bite us, especially since the mafia got it. Regardless, I guess I can see what you were trying to say. Yes, I can see view as well.
As mentioned before, a big part of it is not just how you played but what I expected. It's the reputation burden of being a good, rational player - any slip-up will be analyzed much more closely. A good example of is micro mafia 1 - where I was convinced Ace was red for a relatively small divergence of opinion. Had that been Bill Murray I would not have thought twice about it. It's certainly a double standard - fairly or not.
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Err... why does this keep happening when I try to edit my posts..
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I thought Foolishness had the attitude too - e.g. the whaa outsmarted post.
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A quick answer from me: zona and foolish were reds knowing you were pro-town and... doing what reds do; bill doesn't count - he was just trying to act all "vet" and forgetting we all know him. The first issue is common (and sometimes compounded by over-zelous townies - hai!). Look at me playing in Ace's world war game - where all the reds tried to do was annoy me and make me look crazy, while caller somehow got everyone to believe literally ANYTHING. Same scenario in micro mafia 1. Personally I know I still have to improve in this area. It's... soft skills, if you will.
In this game you did quite well dealing with this I thought. Patience is the key.
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