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yeah, we have iirc 5.5hr til i have to nuke? roughly. 10min less or so
actually lmnop does bring up an interesting point that not all masons need be townie aligned. i haven't considered this possibility at all based on behavior but will still see for completeness' sake how it affects the math, if at all (although tbh i don't think it will)
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to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible.
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On April 10 2010 00:03 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 23:40 JeeJee wrote:
yeah, we have iirc 5.5hr til i have to nuke? roughly. 10min less or so
actually lmnop does bring up an interesting point that not all masons need be townie aligned. i haven't considered this possibility at all based on behavior but will still see for completeness' sake how it affects the math, if at all (although tbh i don't think it will) That's it? No opinion? No response to haster's post? Nothing?! Abenson has a mind of his own. Hence mine and his different votes. He followed my against JohnnySpazz, but every point he made was his own. Completely and totally. Are you honestly suggesting I am the mafia in the group or Abenson is? Let me remind you, I was about to die. I breadcrumbed HIS name. So if there is a mafia between me and him, it is HIM. But I don't feel that is the case. He saved Zona. I didn't urge this. I suggested to him Zona might be DT and he agreed. He even messaged it to Ace early, and said he tried to "un-antinuke" at one point because he wanted to save it. I just told him, Zona and Haster27 were the first to defend us when we claimed Mason. I figured we owed Zona one for this, but I didn't say that to him. I'm glad he did anti-nuke it though. And we both were betting he was the cop. Oops, he was Vigi...Guess we were wrong there... We also haven't been very far from each others opinions. We just haven't voted for the same targets. I'm against bandwagoning for the most part. So. Basically. If one of us is an EVIL MASON, it is him. But I don't feel that is the case. I feel we only were granted a tracker. No DT. No Bus Driver has stepped forward. So please. Please gosh jolly green fucking giant, PLEASE explain how Caller makes sense?
i don't understand the hostile tone here, i have been polite.
what haster's post? his explanation for the last minute nuke switch and extension? this is irrelevant to me, my position is clear and was explained well in advance of any of this.
opinion of what?
how does the bus driver fill into this? if i am right, bus driver is mafia, hence why would s/he step forward?
I am really confused by this post here. . .
I have explained my position as clearly as I can. ANY queries on my position that you have, I have answered. If anything else is unclear, feel free to ask. Unless someone wants to give me a rational townie explanation for why citizen lied about his roleclaim, I feel he is the better target here.
Again, i'm quite confused.. I just stated I hadn't considered the possibility that a mason pair could have a mafia that's all, why did you get so hostile and defensive? I wasn't even accusing you of anything
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wait what the fuck?
i am still extending the day
and if you dont trust me you said you still have a retal on abenson i thought?
i'm not letting this end in a nolynch you fucking cunts.
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On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target?
to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz
or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"?
like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here
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yeah i'm ignoring it on purpose. what value would it have here? pretty sure the only reason i'm alive is because I hinted I am triggerhappy or hatter type role. whether I am that role or plain jane or even something random like a medic, doesn't affect my logic and shouldn't affect your decision making with respect to said logic. remember, if we are in 5-4, we will be in lylo for the next four days, not just today assuming no extra kp. if mafia want me to shut up, i'd rather have them debate about it.
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On April 10 2010 00:50 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:47 JeeJee wrote:
yeah i'm ignoring it on purpose. what value would it have here? pretty sure the only reason i'm alive is because I hinted I am triggerhappy or hatter type role. whether I am that role or plain jane or even something random like a medic, doesn't affect my logic and shouldn't affect your decision making with respect to said logic. remember, if we are in 5-4, we will be in lylo for the next four days, not just today assuming no extra kp. if mafia want me to shut up, i'd rather have them debate about it.
Is this in relation to Caller's cop claim? What are you replying to?
apologies, should have quoted the post
it was from opz, his last line:Do you also keep ignoring my calls for your role claim on purpose?
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On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible.
this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about.
it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered.
please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing
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hold on let me get this straight
if we're in lylo, lmnop has to be mafia, and if we're not, it's okay if we fuck up since it's not lylo?
my question is, why do you ignore a lying roleclaimer in favor of someone who may not be mafia at all, just because if he isn't, we can make a mistake? do you realize this means this time next day will be the same except we will have one less townie arguing? and instead of 1/3 town being mafia, it will be almost half?
@citizen i have all the answers to that post; i am surprised you misinterpretted my position yet again, but i have to run to a meeting. i will be back in 1hr10min +/-10min, well before any nuke deadline. so BE HERE
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ok im back meeting overran by 15min or so
writing up a post..
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On April 10 2010 03:36 haster27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 02:51 JeeJee wrote:
hold on let me get this straight
if we're in lylo, lmnop has to be mafia, and if we're not, it's okay if we fuck up since it's not lylo?
my question is, why do you ignore a lying roleclaimer in favor of someone who may not be mafia at all, just because if he isn't, we can make a mistake? do you realize this means this time next day will be the same except we will have one less townie arguing? and instead of 1/3 town being mafia, it will be almost half?
@citizen i have all the answers to that post; i am surprised you misinterpretted my position yet again, but i have to run to a meeting. i will be back in 1hr10min +/-10min, well before any nuke deadline. so BE HERE Where did lylo come from? I thought ~OpZ~ said LMNOP was Mafia no matter either citizen or Caller was lying, which makes him a perfect compromise. Hell, you even agreed he has to be Mafia if Caller is correct: Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 23:45 JeeJee wrote:
let me rip the mafia to shreds
iaaan
haster
citi.zen
lmnop
Currently there are 4 Mafia 5 Townie. (44.4%) Next day there will be 3 Mafia 4 Townie. (42.9%) Where did 1/3 and half the Town argument come from? (unless I am failing at numbers again.) Moreover, the fact that Town has to vote together does not change, and getting four Townies to agree with each other will definitely be easier than getting five Townies to agree with each other. However, I agree with your statement that it is beneficial to get Caller/citizen issue resolved now- and I am eagerly waiting how laaan and d3_cresentia will place his vote. Hopefully it will be enough to break this stalemate.
ok, again, you are not reading within the context. it is a useful skill to have, but not when you're trying to ensure nobody is misinfored, especially not in this situation.
Read that whole post again. You will notice that those 4 have to be mafia under TWO conditions:
1) caller is telling the truth
2) we're in lylo
if we are in 5-4 split, we have those 4 mafia, and we are in lylo
if we are in 6-3 split, we are not in lylo, and two of iaaan/lmnop/haster is mafia
the argument that opz put forward is regardless of the situation (and regardless of whether caller is a liar or not), lmnop has to be mafia and if he's not, we are not in lylo so we can afford to make a mistake. that means if we can afford to make a mistake we are in 6-3 situation, (here is where the 1/3 town comes from) and after that we would be in 4-3 lylo.
make sense?
i say the argument is silly because we have a lying claimer staring us straight in the face and you seem to be ignoring it! in favor of what? someone who may be mafia or may not (however if not, we can presumably afford to make the mistake)
note: well, the above you is a you as in a general you, not a specific you. I'm expecting you (a specific you) to ignore it because you are on his team if my jugment is correct. the general 'you' refers to our shield
re next: i believe d3 is the last non-voter
writing up a post to address your original queries now..
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On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO.
now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact.
now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now.
his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role!
god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this.
and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer.
again i re-state:
##vote:citizen
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FUCK INTERNET LAGGINGP OST ALRDY
On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO.
now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact.
now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now.
his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role!
god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this.
and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer.
again i re-state:
##vote:citizen
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jesus christ i hope this goes thru
##nuke:opz
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jesus christ i hope this goes thru
##nuke:opz
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my internet is really screwing up @work here idk wtf is up
im going home at 5:00est (about 40 min from now) i will post more when i get home
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rofl TL is plaintxt for me looks weird..>.<
@citizen that doesnt make sense, whats stopping you from having nukes even if you're PGO?
the only way we can prove that part of your ability is if you launch a nuke at someone, it turns out to be fake, then u retaliate vs someone and it turns out to be real
either way opz asked me to target him so he has 2 retals to play with (vs me and vs abenson)
its a real pain to post right now, pages take forever to load.. ima be back in ~2hr or so and address everything on non shitty internet.
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i'm back and.. lol?
On April 10 2010 06:33 citi.zen wrote:
This is just to call you bull-shit. Since you are certain I am lying, you should have no fear to retaliate.
Are we finally on the same page JeeJee?
you seem so blind-sided by trying to prove me wrong, you have officially stopped making sense. first tell me what your nuking abilities have to do with your PGO role?
second, what are you trying to do here?
sure, ##nuke:citizen
what do you think this is going to prove?
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it's funny to see you squirm actually. i called it earlier and it's too obvious now to any rational observer
squirm away, scum. let's see you work your magic
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On April 10 2010 09:12 haster27 wrote:
Oh shit. JeeJee, why in the world did you nuke citizen? Now he can throw another - but very real - retaliation nuke against you. I am not impressed at how nukes are suddenly messing up the entire discussion.
no he can't, he's full of shit.
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EPT
