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[edit] Updated to reflect my changing views on Cho--W max, CDR builds, RoA first if you're going AP. [/edit]
And now, what you've all been waiting for...
5HITCOMBO's guide to Chogath
Hi everyone, I'm 5HITCOMBO, and I'm the #1 Chogath. You may hear otherwise from some people but those guys all suck so just disregard their opinion. Anyway, on to the guide.
Skills
Cho is a beast of a champion when it comes to CC. He has an AoE silence and an AoE knockup slow and both of them nuke pretty hard. His first point in Vorpal Spikes adds 20 damage to his auto-attack. Feast nukes for 800 true damage at level 3 and it has an AP ratio. His passive allows you to ignore harass as you last hit and regenerates your mana/hp to full from a large creep wave lategame. Your model size is like a free Banshee's Veil for your squishies, just stand on top of them and make it hard to target them while tanking skillshots.
If you are taking a lane, grab ghost and flash. If you are jungling, take smite and ghost.
Runes
On lane Cho, I run mpen reds, mp5/lv yellows, rising AP/lv blues and flat AP quints. On jungle Cho, I run MS Quints, armor yellows and attackspeed blues and reds. Do what you want. People tell you it's bad, but fuck those guys, they don't know shit.
Masteries
Lane Cho--0/9/21. Take SoS, good hands, improved ghost, awareness, meditation, greed, buff mastery, movespeed, cooldown and capstone. Defensive tree can be substituted as well--0/21/9 or 0/22/8 isn't terrible and it lets you tank the hell out of your lane.
Jungle Cho--1/8/21. Same but with one point from armor in smite.
Builds
Decide whether you're going AP or tanking and carrying auras. Either way, you want a solo lane. I prefer to be the nuker on the team early and tank out later, but I also see the merit in carrying an aegis early.
You can do basically anything on Cho. If I'm going AP, I open RoA and Zhonyas then build tank. I want to end up with 1-2 big AP items like Rod/Zhonya's and then a bunch of tank items like GA/FoN/Banshee's depending on the situation. Merc Treads are non-negotiable for their CC redux and MR, but if you're raping you can try out sorc boots for the lulz. A lot of the time against lanes that I can win with straight mobility because they're squishy (MF comes to mind) I go Ring-Ring-Sorc for the win.
If I'm in the jungle, I like to tank out to be useful for my team later. I open cloth + 2-5 potions depending on how aggressive I'm planning on being in the jungle. If I open more potions, I won't bluepill until after my first gank, and if I open 2 potions, I might buy a ward to place at their wraiths after I jack it, so I can catch where they're at and if I can jack a second time/gank them there.
My first buy is almost always another ring and boots, then I usually finish merc. Depending on what you want to do you can build either RoA AP or Randuins/spirit visage/frozen heart CDR. If they have a burst nuker that's threatening your team, get double negatron and make a veil and FoN instead. Don't forget to do things like buy Oracles, wards and blue elixir if you need to stack feast or hit harder during teamfights.
Lane Strategy
If you are in a lane, you are hopefully in a solo. A 2v2 is fine because Cho is a beast but I feel like you really want him to be 6-stacked as soon as possible and the faster your true damage nuke hits level 2 and 3 the faster you can feast someone for 3/4 their hp. Basically, you want to open Doran's Ring and HP pot. Anyway, take mid or top and get out there and last hit everything. If you go below 50% hp, step back and regen for a bit, using your SoS and your passive with rupture to last hit from afar. Go QWWQWR then R>W>Q>E.
Your strategy is to use rupture at first but then save it for when you either know you can hit it or to cover as you run/hit as they run. Otherwise, zone them with W, which does a ton of damage and is pretty easy to hit.
When you hit 6, you should be trying to get your flash feast kill. People completely freak out when they're hit by a rupture and you walk towards them because they know you might have feast up and they might get instagibbed, so they blow flash and ghost and cleanse and exhaust like there's no tomorrow. Usually you're just going to hit rupture, scream, and maybe whack them twice before turning around to last hit all the minions, but even this will do a huge chunk of damage to most characters, and you can sometimes drop a rupture-scream-flash-feast combo if they are careless. Even if you don't kill them, they will guaranteed bluepill and you can regenerate everything by last hitting while pushing the lane straight to the tower.
Sometimes the enemy will be playing very safe or harassing you very hard, and in cases like that, you should just take advantage of your great zoning with scream and strong passive to farm while stacking feast to 6. Being 6-stacked is pretty crucial to playing Cho well. If you die and lose stacks, buy a blue elixir and grab blue buff to help get it back up asap.
Watch out for ganks and ults like Mordekaiser's and Malzahar's and you should be fine.
Items to work towards: NLR, boots, lots of hp pots, wards for your lane, RoA, etc. Decide whether you want to go AP or Huge Tank Cho. Huge Tank Cho builds CDR so you want stuff like spirit visage, randuins, and frozen heart.
Jungle Strategy
Jungle Cho is all about keeping their jungler completely denied. Wraith jack, ward buffs, set ambushes when you know they'll be somewhere, hit and run. You are one of the fastest junglers in the game if you do it right, and your red buff gank with ghost is really strong because if you hit an auto attack it's really easy to hit rupture and vice versa so get in there and gank with red/ghost. If you manage to kill one and make the other bluepill just take that tower asap. Cover lanes when you're needed and spend the rest of the time trying to counter-jungle. Stack feast asap and work towards boots and Randuins, going HoG first. Grab merc treads, then go whatever you want, really. Other times I'll grab stuff like Frozen Heart or Banshee's/FoN. If you're up against a heavy magic team just grab a negatron or two after spirit visage.
Midgame
Teamfight push time. Ward all over and force a fight at a low tower. Sit back and poke at them with rupture and scream, usually holding blue buff for the regen and tanking a bit to let your ranged dps whack the tower a couple of times per wave. Don't engage unless you can kill someone pretty easily without anyone dying. Throw down ruptures and save silence for champs like Amumu, Nunu, Akali, Vlad, and Mordekaiser. Burst down anyone low, but make sure your team can finish them--if they can't, save feast for the kill. Someone will get low enough. You're still not uber tanky at this point so be careful not to die, although it's not a huge deal because you can stack out feast pretty fast by chugging a blue elixir. Try to convince your team not to fight until you've stacked out feast again unless they're just absolutely crushing or the other team forces it at baron or dragon.
Lategame
Hopefully at this point you're 6-stacked with a bunch of defensive items and maybe some AP. If you were jungling you should be one of the main tanks for your team, and if you were in lane you can either be a huge tank or a huge tank that has like 250 AP. If you went AP you'll have Zhonya's, but always remember that your role is to use your huge character model to tank hits for your carry, so usually you won't be activating it unless you just charge them and have them blow a ton of cc on you. Feast anyone you can kill and any carry that gets close. If they lifesteal, try to save it for the instagib. Lay ruptures and screams to disable and set up kills and generally be really aggressive. You want to be one of the first ones in and the last one out. People will follow you wherever you go so make sure you know what is going on at all times--you don't want to lead your team into that galio-amumu-kennen-morg-nunu in the bush. Make sure you have an oracles at this point even if the other team doesn't have stealth--ward detection is really important and it gives them more incentive to focus you, which is exactly what you want. You should have like Randuin's Merc Visage Frozen Heart Banshee's and maybe FoN depending on the game, and if you went AP you'll have RoA and Zhonyas and MAAAYBE sorc boots with a bunch of tank items. It's easy to farm a ton as Cho so at around 40 minutes you should be pushing 200 creeps, which is an easy 8k gold for items, plus any champ kills, dragons, towers, minions, barons, assists and your passive gold gain from HoG/gold/base.
Be aggressive, but pull out so your regen can make itself worthwhile. Kill minions for a bit if you're low on mana or hp--one wave can replenish quite a bit of hp/mp and it can mean the difference between having mana for that last feast or getting run over by Yi. I pretty much always feast anyone that I can instantly kill because feast has a short cooldown compared to death time late game and just the fact that they're out of the fight and you're still there, even if just to soak damage and auto-attack, is huge.
Anyway, I'll keep updating this to polish it as time goes on. I eventually want to get a section on matchups and a bit about rupture prediction in there because that's the most important part about playing Cho well. I hope you enjoyed this guide. Please discuss in a civil manner.
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I think from the good cho'gaths that I've seen, cho is one of the best solo top champs. I can see MF giving him a lot of trouble but she's probably mid anyways. Also, cho/mundo and cho/swain is an absolute pain in the ass to lane against. If you eat one cleaver/laserbird you're gonna take a full cho combo and they can all towerdive you on virtue of being tanky as shit. I'm glad you mentioned the aggression as well. Nothing is more frustrating than playing a caster/dps and our teams cho is pussyfooting around the edge of the battle trying to finesse a scream onto everyone instead of just rushing in and being a fucking beast. With the Rylai change affecting vorpal, do you like it over abyssal now?
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I don't really feel comfortable late game as cho'gath. I just try to be a big scary presence but I feel like I could be using my skills a bit better. I'm getting better at hitting my ruptures.
I always do really well late game. Feast + Flash = easy gank on any squishy
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I like both Abyssal and Rylai now but I usually take Rylai's because banshee's or FoN is generally more useful to build from a negatron and the slow on vorpal/rupture/scream is pretty huge. Feast doesn't benefit at all from the -20 MR because it's already true damage. If you're building mass auras go for it, though.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
From my limited low ELO experience, against most champion, I had more success with leveling WQEWWR and R>W>Q>E if I am in a solo top lane. It makes it much easier to zone people out, as if you do not level your W your only zoning tool is your autoattack, which while good, is just not enough.
It is also unnoticed that you can turn your E off when last hitting and you do not want to push the lane.
My setup is also different, I run ghost/flash with almost no exceptions, as it allows me to be more aggresive in a lane than cleanse and in teamfight it seems about same in usefulness. I start with doran's ring, for the mana I all burn on zoning with W ^^. Any thoughts about my "way"?
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Like I said, do what works for you. I know many good players that level W first, I just prefer Q max because it's got a much longer range and it sets up the feast combo without having to scream for damage. Using W to zone is great, though, I usually just use my huge frame to do it. W does almost the same amount of damage as Q for about the same price with a slightly longer cooldown and it trades the knockup slow for a silence. Luckily rupture only really gains damage from leveling it. I like to make every single rupture count though. I do suggest rupture as your first skill, going something like QWEWER then R>W>Q>E.
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United States37500 Posts
My best experience with Cho'gath.
My team lost a team fight in our jungle. An 400 hp Ezreal was baiting at our Golem, hoping for a 300 hp Annie and a 200 hp tank to chase him. I revived, Teleported to a ward at our Golem and Feast'ed on that Ez for an easy double buff.
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To be honest the only real reason to play cho is to 2-shot teemo with rupture-feast from the bush lol.
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On November 09 2010 02:46 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
To be honest the only real reason to play cho is to 2-shot teemo with rupture-feast from the bush lol.
Nah, the best reason to play Cho is because you are GIGANTIC with 6 Feast stacks and you tower over every other champion like the puny weaklings they are.
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United States37500 Posts
Until you realize that you, with your 6 Feast stacks, makes all enemy skills shots like aiming at a wide side of a barn.
huk.
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for serious, the best use of Cho IMO is as a janky carry babysitter. You just stand your fat, 6 feast stack ass on your carry and then the opposing team has an impossible time actually clicking on the carry to kill them, LOL. It's so gay, hahaha.
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United States37500 Posts
+1 to Mogwai
They get close to your carry? UP YOU GO
Still chasing your nice carry? Growl at them.
So much CC, it's a wonder how Cho's carry can die.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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United States37500 Posts
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wtf happened to wra anyway
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/lmeY5.jpg)
I've been trying max scream first and it's not bad, I feel like I'm not harassing as much anymore but I'm not getting harassed at all as I farm because they don't want to eat a scream for 1/4 their hp. If you do this you have to be comfortable pushing lanes (not really a big deal with Cho) and I've been going shield->ring->ring->rod->defensive item depending on the game. Usually it's GA because rod + GA is just really effective against everything but i might consider Banshees/FoN depending on the game. Maaaaaybe a sunfire but I think I'd rather have a GA if I need armor.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
ya thats how I play cho. solo top max scream first just ward ur brush and it doesnt matter if you push lane.
was a lot more effective when he had his good silence, so dont really play him much anymore
doran's shield + SoS + cho'gath passive = lol hope ur not planning on going back anytime soon
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So i figured id bump this thread, and ive been wondering.
Obv Cho has a shitload of hp with just feast+ his base hp growth(which is quite a bit when all added up)
so is it viable to get like straight armor/magicrez items on him?things like thornmail and negatrons/fon etc
or is it better to get hp/armor etc?(sunfires aegis randuins banshees etc)?
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iirc 5HIT at least went through a phase of stacking chain vest/negatron after 1 RoA for that reason.
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United States37500 Posts
Cho's naturally high base hp, hp gained per level, and +hp from feast is the main reason why you see Glacial and Frozen Heart very often on him. If you need to dull the physical attacks coming in, FH provides a much better set of bonuses for Cho, than does other mainstream armor items like Sunfires, Thornmail or even Atma's.
MR, you'd still get Banshee's and/or FoN.
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does magic resist reduce spell damage by 1 point per resist or is it more? thats something ive alwayswondered atleast
and when y home internet is up ill probably end up giving just armor/magic rez chogath a test
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Mres = 2 per 1% until 100%, then whatever makes it 75% at 300
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Damage Mitigation is calculated by the following formula:
Damage reduction = X / (100 + X) and whatever that percentage comes out to is the reduction you get. X is your armor or magic resist.
Reworded: Damage taken from any source will be: (Damage * 100) / (100 + X) where X is the appropriate mitigation value, modified by penetration.
Using Niton's numbers, 100 and 300, fit into the formula this way:
Damage Reduction: 100 / (100 + 100) = 100 / 200 = 50%
Damage Taken: 100 / (100 + 100) = 100 / 200 = 50%
Damage Reduction: 300 / (100 + 300) = 300 / 400 = 75%
Damage Taken: 100 / (100 + 300) = 100 / 400 = 25%
Again, if penetration exists (it usually does) then modify X before plugging it in here.
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Glacial/Frozen is boss as fk on cho because of the CDR, also Randuins if you're going tank/cdr. Depending on where I am I go either straight AP into GA to preserve both my "I'm a huge nuker" and "we probably shouldn't focus cho but I can't help it" status or mass tank cdr "HE FEASTED TWICE IN THE SAME FIGHT?"
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On November 19 2010 20:31 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Glacial/Frozen is boss as fk on cho because of the CDR, also Randuins if you're going tank/cdr. Depending on where I am I go either straight AP into GA to preserve both my "I'm a huge nuker" and "we probably shouldn't focus cho but I can't help it" status or mass tank cdr "HE FEASTED TWICE IN THE SAME FIGHT?"
I frickin' hate that two feast thing. I see Cho feast someone and I'm like "ok, can boss Cho around now" -- finally chase him down to like 400 HP, and he eats me -- "wtf?"
What's the base CD on Feast?
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Base CD on Feast is a minute, so at max CDR it's 36 seconds.
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I've been doing more and more of the feast mode cho in the jungle, it's pretty boss. 1/8/21 + spirit visage/randuins/frozen heart and you're at max cdr and tanky as fk to boot.
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Okay, Cho guide updated, it's closer to what I do now.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I think lane cho should always level E once against melee champion at lvl 2/3, and sometimes against ranged champs. It allows you to autoattack enemy and profit from it more often, which is IMO worth 1 lvl in Q.
I also experiment with Rylai's Sceptre and in my opinion it is very powerful; 15% AoE slow on your autoattack really makes everything easier, and slow on your W and Q are just a bonus. Especially nice on tank Cho, as you will want as much CC as you can get.
Anyway GJ on the guide, I like it ^^
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Kosiv.jpg)
I just do whatever now but I max W and tailor my build to what the team needs. We needed a tank this game so I went mass CDR tank items with rylais for AP/more cc and then banshees/GA cuz i had a shit ton of money from all the kills.
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CDR boots + randuin's = CDR cap. Too gimmicky?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 11 2011 09:53 oberon wrote:
CDR boots + randuin's = CDR cap. Too gimmicky?
Er, that's only 23% CDR. Even if you're running a full set of CDR glyphs, and 9/0/21 masteries, you're still going to be ~2% CDR short of the cap. And if you're using the rune/masteries setup from the OP, that's not even close to cap.
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So the build I'm working on atm is like dorans -> boots -> HoG -> Catalyst -> merc -> Rylais -> Spirit Visage/finish Randuins/finish Banshees depending -> GA/Frozen Heart with my AP page.
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On January 11 2011 10:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 09:53 oberon wrote:
CDR boots + randuin's = CDR cap. Too gimmicky? Er, that's only 23% CDR. Even if you're running a full set of CDR glyphs, and 9/0/21 masteries, you're still going to be ~2% CDR short of the cap. And if you're using the rune/masteries setup from the OP, that's not even close to cap.
I ? don't glyphs give 8.1 at 18 and then masteries give 9 flat, so that makes 40?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2011 12:54 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 10:03 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2011 09:53 oberon wrote:
CDR boots + randuin's = CDR cap. Too gimmicky? Er, that's only 23% CDR. Even if you're running a full set of CDR glyphs, and 9/0/21 masteries, you're still going to be ~2% CDR short of the cap. And if you're using the rune/masteries setup from the OP, that's not even close to cap. I ? don't glyphs give 8.1 at 18 and then masteries give 9 flat, so that makes 40?
Scaling glyphs give 8.1, flat only give just shy of 6. I was going off the assumption of flat glyphs, because scaling CDR glyphs really aren't that good (flat CDR glyphs are already overrated, and in most cases, the scaling glyphs are worse--the breakeven point is really late).
Plus, the point is still moot, because if you're going 0/8/22 or 0/9/21 (which are probably both better than 9/0/21 on Cho), you only get 6% CDR from masteries--and CDR glyphs, flat or scaling, are both probably not optimal choices on Cho'gath.
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Yeah ever since the randuins nerf it's been pretty hard to hit the cap reliably with cho but usually you can convince your team to give you blue buff unless it's more useful on someone else and a blue elixir still caps you out with SV/randuins/utility tree.
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And don't forget about glacial shroud/frozen heart vs those auto-attacker teams!
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Was wondering about when jungling with Cho, what's your follow-up build after cloth armor + pots? Just follow what your lane build gets after starting items?
Edit: nevermind. Read too fast. found it later in jungle strategy section.
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I've been told that a good Chogath build is Abyssal Scepter/Banshees Veil/Frozen Heart (in whatever order you need them). It seems to work for me, I'm just curious about how it compares overall to the build in the op.
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It's such a situational thing that it really depends who's on each team and what items they have and what scores they have and what your role on your team is so it's hard to say. Try to think it through for yourself and see if you can come up with something.
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treds/sunfire/FoN + blue pot. (core items)
glacial/nlr (vs teams you feel safe against)
frozen heart/randuins (vs AD heavy teams)
abyss/rylais (vs AP heavy teams)
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wat
don't do that ^
[edit]
Okay, I should say more than that. Your item choices are okay but the reasoning behind them is straight retarded. Why should you get a rylais instead of a banshees vs heavy ap teams? Why is sunfire/FoN core? I don't even get sunfire on Cho and I RARELY get FoN anymore. Why is glacial vs teams you feel safe against but frozen heart vs "heavy ad teams"? Your thought process behind item choices doesn't make any sense.
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Like for real there are three distinct styles of Chogath that I play and depending on what I'm doing I get different things for different reasons and sometimes I blend a bit of both to fit the situation. Don't be so cookie-cutter and definitely don't just buy random shit because you "feel safe" against a team.
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I get FoN because movespeed is amazing for cho and the passive along with cho's passive lets you recover from fights fast.
I get Sunfire because its high armor high health and the passive doesn't hurt and allows you to last hit by just sitting near creeps.
Glacial is for the CDR and Mana, frozen heart is 1400g mostly into physical mitigation.Therefore if you feel safe you can cut out defense and get some AP.
I never said get rylais over banshee's, its just in most situations fon/merc/abyss is more than enough MR, and rylais helps you catch ranged carries easier. Yes if its a nuke/cc team you get a banshee's but otherwise you really don't need 3 negaton items.
Sometimes I have to get frozen heart and abyss, sometimes I don't get either. I just posted the most generic principles i follow.
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i mean really i should just say get the items to deal with whats giving you trouble.
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On January 19 2011 11:03 DM20 wrote:
I get Sunfire because its high armor high health and the passive doesn't hurt and allows you to last hit by just sitting near creeps.
Cho can annihilate a creep wave very easily without Sunfire just by using his abilities, armor items that give CDR (Randuin's, Glacial) are much better on him if you're building armor.
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I mean like you could get a sheen on him because it wouldn't hurt, the fact that he has the highest attack damage scaling in the game works well with it and it allows you to do a ton of dama...
No but seriously those are bad reasons.
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Ok fine, i get what i do because it makes me durable and mobile, It allows me to be a shit disturber who you dont want to focus or chase.
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United States47024 Posts
In terms of the items you've laid out, I don't see why you'd get FoN+Glacial+Sunfire when Visage+Randuin+Banshee's gives comparable stats for similar cost while also giving you a bunch of kickass utility like the Randuin slow and the BVeil shield.
FoN+Glacial+Sunfire, 6895 gold - 450 HP, 425 Mana, 90 Armor, 76 MR, 40 HP5, 20% CDR, 7% Movespeed, associated passives
Visage+Randuin+Banshee, 7190 gold - 925 HP, 375 Mana, 80 Armor, 80 MR, 25 HP5, 20% CDR, associated passives and actives
Personally, I think the Visage+Randuin+Banshee passives/actives blow the FoN+Sunfire passives out of the water. And that's not even considering the fact that HoG and Catalyst as components have additional utility through early-midgame while FoN/Glacial/Sunfire build from a bunch of base items.
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On January 19 2011 12:33 TheYango wrote:
In terms of the items you've laid out, I don't see why you'd get FoN+Glacial+Sunfire when Visage+Randuin+Banshee's gives comparable stats for similar cost while also giving you a bunch of kickass utility like the Randuin slow and the BVeil shield.
FoN+Glacial+Sunfire, 6895 gold - 450 HP, 425 Mana, 90 Armor, 76 MR, 40 HP5, 20% CDR, 7% Movespeed, associated passives
Visage+Randuin+Banshee, 7190 gold - 925 HP, 375 Mana, 80 Armor, 80 MR, 25 HP5, 20% CDR, associated passives and actives
Personally, I think the Visage+Randuin+Banshee passives/actives blow the FoN+Sunfire passives out of the water. And that's not even considering the fact that HoG and Catalyst as components have additional utility through early-midgame while FoN/Glacial/Sunfire build from a bunch of base items.
Holy Fuck. That was such a solid argument. Props. Detailed theorycrafting.
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On January 19 2011 12:33 TheYango wrote:
In terms of the items you've laid out, I don't see why you'd get FoN+Glacial+Sunfire when Visage+Randuin+Banshee's gives comparable stats for similar cost while also giving you a bunch of kickass utility like the Randuin slow and the BVeil shield.
FoN+Glacial+Sunfire, 6895 gold - 450 HP, 425 Mana, 90 Armor, 76 MR, 40 HP5, 20% CDR, 7% Movespeed, associated passives
Visage+Randuin+Banshee, 7190 gold - 925 HP, 375 Mana, 80 Armor, 80 MR, 25 HP5, 20% CDR, associated passives and actives
Personally, I think the Visage+Randuin+Banshee passives/actives blow the FoN+Sunfire passives out of the water. And that's not even considering the fact that HoG and Catalyst as components have additional utility through early-midgame while FoN/Glacial/Sunfire build from a bunch of base items.
thank you for this rational arguement. I'll have to try out Visage/randuins over glacial/sunfire, but I'm always going to get FoN because the movespeed is really fucking game changing on cho.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 19 2011 17:27 DM20 wrote:
thank you for this rational arguement. I'll have to try out Visage/randuins over glacial/sunfire, but I'm always going to get FoN because the movespeed is really fucking game changing on cho.
Say there's a Rammus powerballing into your team. You eat the powerball because you don't want that Rammus taunting/sitting on your carry. Now which would you rather have--a measly 7% movespeed, or to not be slowed by 60%?
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On January 19 2011 17:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 17:27 DM20 wrote:
thank you for this rational arguement. I'll have to try out Visage/randuins over glacial/sunfire, but I'm always going to get FoN because the movespeed is really fucking game changing on cho. Say there's a Rammus powerballing into your team. You eat the powerball because you don't want that Rammus taunting/sitting on your carry. Now which would you rather have--a measly 7% movespeed, or to not be slowed by 60%?
the problem with banshee's is its easy to poke off and its not always up, the 7% movepseed will help me land more feasts and screams more reliably and easily.
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yango so gud theorycraft
heroes that make better use of itemizing movement speed are generally kiting/pokey heroes. with the exception of fleeing/chasing (neither of which are optimal for champions who want to be in the nitty-gritty like cho), itemized movement speed generally does nothing for you in big teamfights. you will hardly notice that movespeed if your team engages properly; they should have enough cc to make that movespeed unnecessary (and the enemy team should have the cc to make it negligible as well, in most escaping + chasing situations etc.).
and ya, as yango said, catalyst is such a flexible option (especially for cho) in that you will almost never be wrong in getting it early. getting it makes cho nigh impossible to harass in lane and gives him ultimate staying power, and can be built into RoA, banshees, etc. It is much more effective than two regen pendants in that it helps your mana pool + flat regen per level as well, giving you the option of a more harass oriented playstyle without having to worry about mana / timing your skills to hit minions when harassing (for ur passive).
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On January 19 2011 17:42 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 17:33 TheYango wrote:On January 19 2011 17:27 DM20 wrote:
thank you for this rational arguement. I'll have to try out Visage/randuins over glacial/sunfire, but I'm always going to get FoN because the movespeed is really fucking game changing on cho. Say there's a Rammus powerballing into your team. You eat the powerball because you don't want that Rammus taunting/sitting on your carry. Now which would you rather have--a measly 7% movespeed, or to not be slowed by 60%? the problem with banshee's is its easy to poke off and its not always up, the 7% movepseed will help me land more feasts and screams more reliably and easily.
saying that banshee has a "problem" because it is easy to poke off is kinda dumb. why would anybody ever get banshee, because you could just "poke it off"?
of course, this argument is more valid when the enemy team is running a poke/kite comp, but those are fairly rare these days. the thing is, every banshee poked off is an extra source of damage/cc that you have mitigated and the enemy team has lost. starting a teamfight while the enemy anivia's q is on cd is much more advantageous than if not, and even if she does start the teamfight with it off cd and your banshee up, that banshee will give you the time to start a q yourself so that their team cannot take advantage of anivia's stun, etc.
in any teamfight where your team has any organization at all, landing feasts and screams should be a matter of landing your q and following up (or using your teammates cc to your advantage). 7% movespeed won't offset almost all slows in the game (ashe volley/q, anivia, singed, w/e u name it), and vice versa if those heroes are on your team.
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in any teamfight where your team has any organization at all, landing feasts and screams should be a matter of landing your q and following up (or using your teammates cc to your advantage). 7% movespeed won't offset almost all slows in the game (ashe volley/q, anivia, singed, w/e u name it), and vice versa if those heroes are on your team.
I must be playing a different game than you, because unless I'm playing with people i know my teammates are either greedy bastards or drooling retards with no sense of team play at all.
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On January 19 2011 17:50 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2011 17:42 DM20 wrote:On January 19 2011 17:33 TheYango wrote:On January 19 2011 17:27 DM20 wrote:
thank you for this rational arguement. I'll have to try out Visage/randuins over glacial/sunfire, but I'm always going to get FoN because the movespeed is really fucking game changing on cho. Say there's a Rammus powerballing into your team. You eat the powerball because you don't want that Rammus taunting/sitting on your carry. Now which would you rather have--a measly 7% movespeed, or to not be slowed by 60%? the problem with banshee's is its easy to poke off and its not always up, the 7% movepseed will help me land more feasts and screams more reliably and easily. saying that banshee has a "problem" because it is easy to poke off is kinda dumb. why would anybody ever get banshee, because you could just "poke it off"? of course, this argument is more valid when the enemy team is running a poke/kite comp, but those are fairly rare these days. the thing is, every banshee poked off is an extra source of damage/cc that you have mitigated and the enemy team has lost. starting a teamfight while the enemy anivia's q is on cd is much more advantageous than if not, and even if she does start the teamfight with it off cd and your banshee up, that banshee will give you the time to start a q yourself so that their team cannot take advantage of anivia's stun, etc. in any teamfight where your team has any organization at all, landing feasts and screams should be a matter of landing your q and following up (or using your teammates cc to your advantage). 7% movespeed won't offset almost all slows in the game (ashe volley/q, anivia, singed, w/e u name it), and vice versa if those heroes are on your team.
dm20 is saying some pretty silly stuff in this thread, but I want to note that I value banshee's very differently on tanks than on carries. It's a much much less powerful item on a tank because they're actually built to withstand some degree of cc, whereas if a carry gets hit by one disable it can often mean instant death. Tanks are also a lot more likely to get their shield popped by something that doesn't matter simply because they're in front - if somebody makes it through your whole team to throw a spell at the carry it's probably got a hell of a punch, whereas people feel free to spam at the tank taking point. Still a reasonable item on either type of course.
uh, I don't play cho, that's just a sidenote.
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when i say any organization at all, i mean that they use their skills in a fight.
that's all, really.
regardless of how retarded your teammates are, they generally keep up that standard of play.
as for tanks with banshee, the point is still valid. every spell that they use is a disable/damage that they can't use for its cd after the battle has started. so some tanks, like amumu, benefit from this as it allows them to pull of their initiation without a hitch. others, like cho, are given the option of being able to continue using his disables / soak up damage for their carry with the bveil. the effect of "i've already blown an aoe stun on these mofos but this cho can still disable us so that we can't follow up" is still very valuable. you just have to use it right and not get it stupidly wasted by a underlevelled ezreal mystic or something lol
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I guess I just dont play high enough level games because most of the time I've got to chase someone down for the kill or catch up to my overextended carry or just be at an undefended lane faster.
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Ya I agree you're playing with scrubs, RARELY get FoN on Cho.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 19 2011 18:47 DM20 wrote:
I guess I just dont play high enough level games because most of the time I've got to chase someone down for the kill or catch up to my overextended carry or just be at an undefended lane faster.
At the point where you need to be running around to undefended lanes, you probably haven't finished FoN yet (getting HoG/Cata/Visage/Mercs and possibly Randuin's first), and chasing is very often not the right thing to do anyway.
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On January 19 2011 18:30 Navi wrote:
when i say any organization at all, i mean that they use their skills in a fight.
that's all, really.
regardless of how retarded your teammates are, they generally keep up that standard of play.
as for tanks with banshee, the point is still valid. every spell that they use is a disable/damage that they can't use for its cd after the battle has started. so some tanks, like amumu, benefit from this as it allows them to pull of their initiation without a hitch. others, like cho, are given the option of being able to continue using his disables / soak up damage for their carry with the bveil. the effect of "i've already blown an aoe stun on these mofos but this cho can still disable us so that we can't follow up" is still very valuable. you just have to use it right and not get it stupidly wasted by a underlevelled ezreal mystic or something lol
of course I'm not arguing against you/with dm20 on this or that banshee's isn't a legit pickup on tanks, just noting it's got a different and not as valuable purpose on tanks. it's not even related to the thread, really
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I understand my build isn't optimal in teamfights, but in solo queue more often then not there are small skirmishes that sometimes lead to teamfights. My build excels in smaller skirmishes. The increased mobility makes landing ruptures so much easier, honestly think how many times on cho you've been chasing some low squishy and hes in rupture range but he'll make it off the spikes before they activate closing that distance will make you land those ruptures. Once the rupture lands they are in your cho vortex of death and soon to be digested.
My entire playstyle is centered around being able to eliminate someone quickly and avoiding full on teamfights. Get in kill someone quick and retreat, FoN + Carnivore makes healing back up easy, take advantage of your number advantage and push.
And my reason for still using sunfire is because once you've blown your load as cho you kinda just sit there being big.
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demonstrates the big problem with discussing strategy alot in forums. LoL just becomes a different game as you get to higher skill levels. so people argue so much when really they are playing different games.
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This isn't even a matter of levels. Banshees is straight up better than FoN if you play Cho right. I guarantee you if I played in your games I'd still be CRUSHING with my builds because they are optimized so much better.
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And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil
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On January 21 2011 06:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil
You keep looking at this on an item vs item basis when its the entire package. I'm able to sit on guys and grind them down with sunfire/auto attack. I dont need a banshee's to block a few spells I'm fucking Cho I got 6 stacks for that shit.
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well fon is better with 4 warmogs
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United States47024 Posts
On January 21 2011 07:35 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil You keep looking at this on an item vs item basis when its the entire package. I'm able to sit on guys and grind them down with sunfire/auto attack. I dont need a banshee's to block a few spells I'm fucking Cho I got 6 stacks for that shit.
You're not a physical carry. Your goal isn't "grind them down". If you're playing tank, you need to keep their asses off your team, and that requires not getting stuck in stuns. If you're playing AP, your goal is to instagib one of their team members, and blocking 1 CC is going to help you more in that than persistent movespeed.
If you want to play a tanky champ that chases people down, and autoattacks them to death, well, that's not exactly Cho's kit.
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United States37500 Posts
Only time I get FoN over Banshee is when the champion I play doesn't have a mana pool and I need MR. Otherwise, spell block every minute is too good. Not sure how anyone can try to justify what FoN has that makes it better than Banshee.
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On January 21 2011 07:35 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil You keep looking at this on an item vs item basis when its the entire package. I'm able to sit on guys and grind them down with sunfire/auto attack. I dont need a banshee's to block a few spells I'm fucking Cho I got 6 stacks for that shit.
I don't keep looking down on this on an item-vs-item basis, your entire package SUCKS and I'm telling you why. You're playing Cho wrong but that's okay. I see a lot of top players play Cho wrong too. I'm just telling you how to get better. I've been maining Chogath since beta and he's got me to 1850 in ranked, he's been my best friend for over a year in this game and I have learned a LOT about him in that time. I used to think like you and I'm just saying that now I think completely differently because I really thought about and tested it.
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Like for real when ranked started I had about 600 wins with Cho and that was half a year ago, before my 150~ ranked wins with him and the COUNTLESS wins in normal since then. That isn't counting the losses, either. I've probably won more games with Cho than you've played total. Trust me on this, I'm giving you some insight into him that has come from a year and a half of grinding.
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On January 21 2011 07:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 07:35 DM20 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil You keep looking at this on an item vs item basis when its the entire package. I'm able to sit on guys and grind them down with sunfire/auto attack. I dont need a banshee's to block a few spells I'm fucking Cho I got 6 stacks for that shit. You're not a physical carry. Your goal isn't "grind them down". If you're playing tank, you need to keep their asses off your team, and that requires not getting stuck in stuns. If you're playing AP, your goal is to instagib one of their team members, and blocking 1 CC is going to help you more in that than persistent movespeed. If you want to play a tanky champ that chases people down, and autoattacks them to death, well, that's not exactly Cho's kit.
but cho can't really tank like that, you're ability to take more damage isn't going to keep people off your allies they'll just ignore you.Your presence has to have a noticeable effect besides ulting a guy. Cho isn't a strong teamfight character so I don't understand the need to try and make him one.
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On January 21 2011 08:08 NeoIllusions wrote:
Only time I get FoN over Banshee is when the champion I play doesn't have a mana pool and I need MR. Otherwise, spell block every minute is too good. Not sure how anyone can try to justify what FoN has that makes it better than Banshee.
really? recent nerfs on banshee make it a lot harder to insta-pick over FoN imo. hp nerf, mana nerf, MR nerf... i don't think FoN is the end-all be-all MR item and i still prioritize banshee 55-60% of the time but it's definitely not leagues better than FoN imo. but then i play more tanks than carries so i guess i don't need the spell block as direly
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United States37500 Posts
On January 21 2011 08:35 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 08:08 NeoIllusions wrote:
Only time I get FoN over Banshee is when the champion I play doesn't have a mana pool and I need MR. Otherwise, spell block every minute is too good. Not sure how anyone can try to justify what FoN has that makes it better than Banshee. really? recent nerfs on banshee make it a lot harder to insta-pick over FoN imo. hp nerf, mana nerf, MR nerf... i don't think FoN is the end-all be-all MR item and i still prioritize banshee 55-60% of the time but it's definitely not leagues better than FoN imo. but then i play more tanks than carries so i guess i don't need the spell block as direly
Yes, even with nerfs. Spell block is that strong. Not to mention Banshee is a great way for carries and tanks to expand their mana pool. It's very obvious for carries but even for tanks, what other options do you have for mana pool expansion? Glacial? It's not always cost effective.
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United States37500 Posts
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On January 21 2011 08:43 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 08:35 gtrsrs wrote:On January 21 2011 08:08 NeoIllusions wrote:
Only time I get FoN over Banshee is when the champion I play doesn't have a mana pool and I need MR. Otherwise, spell block every minute is too good. Not sure how anyone can try to justify what FoN has that makes it better than Banshee. really? recent nerfs on banshee make it a lot harder to insta-pick over FoN imo. hp nerf, mana nerf, MR nerf... i don't think FoN is the end-all be-all MR item and i still prioritize banshee 55-60% of the time but it's definitely not leagues better than FoN imo. but then i play more tanks than carries so i guess i don't need the spell block as direly Yes, even with nerfs. Spell block is that strong. Not to mention Banshee is a great way for carries and tanks to expand their mana pool. It's very obvious for carries but even for tanks, what other options do you have for mana pool expansion? Glacial? It's not always cost effective.
if i'm playing a tank that needs mana pool expansion then i'm playing malphite, and so yeah i'll go frozen heart on him because it synergizes so well with his E and randuins. but i also get banshee on him so i can transition to manamune later.
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On January 21 2011 08:34 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 07:55 TheYango wrote:On January 21 2011 07:35 DM20 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
And LOL @ FoN "excels in small skirmishes" more than Banshees Veil You keep looking at this on an item vs item basis when its the entire package. I'm able to sit on guys and grind them down with sunfire/auto attack. I dont need a banshee's to block a few spells I'm fucking Cho I got 6 stacks for that shit. You're not a physical carry. Your goal isn't "grind them down". If you're playing tank, you need to keep their asses off your team, and that requires not getting stuck in stuns. If you're playing AP, your goal is to instagib one of their team members, and blocking 1 CC is going to help you more in that than persistent movespeed. If you want to play a tanky champ that chases people down, and autoattacks them to death, well, that's not exactly Cho's kit. but cho can't really tank like that, you're ability to take more damage isn't going to keep people off your allies they'll just ignore you.Your presence has to have a noticeable effect besides ulting a guy. Cho isn't a strong teamfight character so I don't understand the need to try and make him one.
Like I was saying, you really need to learn how to play Chogath, he's a HUGE TEAMFIGHT WRECKER. 3 second AoE silence? AoE knockup slow? 800 true damage nuke? Blocks spells and clicks with his body? Best AD scaling in the game PLUS a skill that gives +60 AoE damage?
There are three ways to play Cho:
Tank CDR (7-8 second scream that keeps them silenced in AoE for 3 seconds, 5-6 second rupture that knocks up as part of a chain CC AND slows in AoE, a 36 second feast, and on top of that you never die)
Straight AP nuker (2-shot squishies. 3-shot mundo.)
Hybrid AP/Tank (Do a lot of damage and provide a lot of CC but still tank for the team. Very balanced and useful against comps that you need both the CC and the burst for like Akali, Vlad, Eve or Trundle.)
It depends what you want to do but you seem to have no real idea what you're doing and you're not fitting into any of those categories. Note that "straight tank Cho" isn't on there because he's fucking terrible.
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Regarding CDR Cho, I hope that will remain viable after the nerfs to CDR tank items.
Also, I have a few jungle Cho related questions.
First, what is more important to his succes, Aspd red or Armor yellow? Don't have the IP for both yet.
And do you get a level in Vorpal early when jungling? It sounds great for jungling, but is it worth sacrificing a level in Rupture or Scream for?
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wtf lol cd boots are so good on cho, he got a huge buff
sometimes i still go merc/sorc tho, depends on comp
Aspd reds much more important and they're more useful overall
when you jungle e is your first point because you smite big wraith and hit each one twice and the last one three times and it kills them all in the least amount of attacks
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Cho REALLY like early CDR because you want 6 stacks ASAP and the CDs on his aoe CCs is (justified) high. MPen is... nice but for Cho you really want to abuse the only activly scaling (truedamage always deals "more" damage the more migitation a target buys) truedamagenuke in the game.
It also helps that Cho has among the best base damage values.
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Thanks for the quick response 
A question about lane Cho came to mind: while harassing the enemy with Scream and Rupture is great, if they stand amidst their creeps, Cho's spells will push the lane, against opponents who only last hit anyway (which are rare at my elo, everyone pushes like their life depends on it it seems). I was wondering whether you guys have any thoughts on this.
Also, you mention you'll write something about Rupture prediction at the end of your guide. Any idea when you will, I'd be very interested in reading that .
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It depends, if you're top or mid (and you should be if you're in a lane, probably) then it doesn't really matter, as long as you have ghost and flash and good map awareness + wards. Push it to their tower if you can hit them with a scream or a rupture, otherwise just last hit. Scream does so much damage early that it's ridiculous, so trading a wave pushing to tower for a scream/rupture/auto combo is pretty legit.
Rupture prediction is a bit hard to write about but it's like place it in a spot where if they run to the place they want to get to they'll guarantee get hit and if they run the opposite direction they'll eat a feast. If someone is dodging your ruptures when you put them on top of them, try placing it a little to the left or right, sandwiching them to the wall or creep wave. Disguising it under creeps between auto attacks is good, too, and if they're chasing, well, you just have to hit it in the right spot. There is a lot to talk about as far as rupture placement goes, but it's something you can only really learn through practice.
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On January 21 2011 09:30 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
There are three ways to play Cho:
Tank CDR (7-8 second scream that keeps them silenced in AoE for 3 seconds, 5-6 second rupture that knocks up as part of a chain CC AND slows in AoE, a 36 second feast, and on top of that you never die)
Straight AP nuker (2-shot squishies. 3-shot mundo.)
Hybrid AP/Tank (Do a lot of damage and provide a lot of CC but still tank for the team. Very balanced and useful against comps that you need both the CC and the burst for like Akali, Vlad, Eve or Trundle.)
Hey 5hit, could you expand upon this a bit. What makes you choose one style over another? Does it heavily depend on your team comp? Are there hero match-ups that you know won't allow you to run style? Does jungleing or laning affect which styles are viable?
Sorry if you already covered this but after a quick read it didn't stand out. I always enjoyed Cho, I just don't seem to play him much for some reason. It always seemed like if I need a beefy AP character I would just run AP Sion. Maybe it due to the fact I haven't played Cho enough and am not confident in playing him consistently.
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AP Sion is much stronger than AP Cho, but it depends how much cc you need and what your matchup is. If you're looking for a strict AP nuker I'd probably stick with Sion, but assuming you just happen to be in a game with Cho and for some reason need burst, go AP.
Usually I tend to build tanky in all cases but against certain champs that die to scream in lane (most casters, most melee except Xin, Panth and Sion, most ranged champs) I'll get more AP than usual. It depends if they can kill me or not. It depends if we have a true tank (Alistar, Malphite, Amumu, Singed, etc.) who can soak damage for me. It depends if I need to be hitting people with cc to let my team win fights or if I need to instagib someone to win fights. There's a lot to think about and you should pretty much always default to AP Tank hybrid if you're not sure.
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I have a few questions, or really just guidelines/tips since so much is situational.
With the Doran's change patch or so ago, what should Chogath's starting items be? Normally I would go with a Dshield or Dring+health pot, but starting out with Dorans seems alot weaker now that I can't get a Pot as well. Should I just suck it up and get a Doran's Shield because its the best option, or should I start getting something else?
Second question is how am I supposed to lane against Xin? I used to play LoL alot before SC2 beta, but after I got into the Beta, I quit LoL. So I start back recently, and there are a ton of new heroes, and I have no idea what they do. Xin included. So lets say I go solo top, and their Xin is also solo top. Its like he can just charge me, beat the crap out of me, and regen his HP. How am I supposed to deal with him? The only other hero who has ever given me so much trouble in lane was Kennen (who I find equally wtf, since he didn't exist back when I played either), and Xin is melee!
Last question is are those cooldown boots worth it, if I already get Frozen Heart/have Cooldown Masteries, with this recent Frozen Heart CDR nerf? Normally I go Merc Treads and Frozen Heart, and with my masteries/runes, will have a 36 second feast or something. With the Frozen Heart and Randuin's CDR nerf, I'm wondering if those boots might be worth it to make up for the lost CDR. I just don't like the idea of not getting Merc Treads lol
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Honestly? With my runes and masteries top lane I've been trying out rejuv bead + faerie charm + hp pot. I make the faerie charm into a philo stone and get a HoG after. Kinda depends on what's going on, but it's working pretty well. Obviously sell it later, but I've really been appreciating how good regen is in lane lately, and it's a decently solid opening for Cho. If I were to open anything else it would be rejuv + 3/3 pots or cloth + 5 pots.
Xin fucking rapes Cho. Not much you can really do about it. Try to keep up with him in farm and maybe make a tactical sacrifice to lose your lane if he's farming too hard.
CD boots are AWESOME on Cho. Obviously against certain teams you can't sacrifice merc treads but against any team that doesn't have 4+ forms of CC (or a really important CC), you can probably get away with cd boots. They're more expensive now so I have to test, though.
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this thread has helped me so much. up until now i though cho was just a tank with some cc
RoA on cho is amazing. HP/AP boost is so good early/mid game. the catalyst that builds into RoA is very useful early/mid game as well
but what i hate are cho's that build pure tank. Cho's feasts kinda guarentee that he'll have 3K + health :/
I love going zhonyas and Rylai's. zhonyas give him the 50 armor and rylai gives him the 500 HP with the massive AP boosts
my build on cho:
RoA
CDR boots
GA
Zhonyas
Rylais Crystal Scepter
Deathcap
this build almost guarentee's 500+ AP for cho while giving him a 1200+ HP and 100+ armor.
combine that with his feast stacks you're looking at a massive 4K health cho gath who nukes like a boss (knockup/scream will easily cut down any squishy health down to half) and will never fucking die (GA armor + zhonya's/rylais) and with your massive size you act as a free banshee's to your allies. ever try aiming for a squishy under cho? hard when he's knockup+screaming you :/
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I'm a bit of a newbie with Cho, but this is the build I've been using on Cho and it's been working pretty well.
Dorans Ring
Dorans Ring
Merc Treads
RoA
Rylais
Banshees/Frozen Heart
Frozen Heart/Banshees
Open with AP + Health, then build tank after Rylai's. The last two items tend to change alot depending on the other teams comp.
I'm a newbie so I'm open to suggestions/improvements.
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Don't make RoA or rylais tbh. >_< You need tank items first like banshee, fon, sunfire, frozen heart.
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Roa isn't bad on Cho, depending on situation. I build Cho just like i would Singed - if you are having a good game go for Roa and some more offensive stuff ("semi-tank items" like i call them).
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On March 09 2011 08:50 Goshawk. wrote:
Don't make RoA or rylais tbh. >_< You need tank items first like banshee, fon, sunfire, frozen heart.
I agree and disagree with this depending on what style you're playing. Rod is amazing if it's the AP in your tank build or the tank in your AP build. Rylais is good if you're turning catalyst into Banshees first, especially now that it procs on vorpals.
That build is pretty solid, unkillable cho is pretty hard to deal with and I know it's similar to how hotshot builds. I'm pretty sure I'd go dorans dorans boots cata merc if I was doing that build though, but it's up to you. The catalyst ensures that you're basically never going to back from standard harass.
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United States47024 Posts
Is there a point in getting two Dorans and Cata that early? I feel like Cata gives you infinite mana/staying power already so the 2nd Doran's Ring seems somewhat superfluous.
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HP + Mp5/lv + AP is pretty solid for one item, you just want a bit more of all 3 early and it's a really, really good way to get a bit of extra scream damage in.
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How exactly do you transition into tanky cdr or AP from the jungle without clearing jungle too slowly/ running out of mana?
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off topic, but I see you play on KaraFace stream from time to time 
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On July 16 2011 13:53 Odds wrote:
How exactly do you transition into tanky cdr or AP from the jungle without clearing jungle too slowly/ running out of mana?
My jungle cho is like 1/8/21, aspd marks, aspd quints, flat armor seals, cdr blues.
Cloth armor+5 hpots (save the cloth armor for GA)
Start enemy wraith camp -> your own wraith camp -> wolves -> golems -> bluepill -> blue -> whatever. Grab an early philo stone, it will help you. Then adjust accordingly with tanky items and/or cdr/ap items.
I go something like EWEQW, R > W > E > Q
Dunno if it's the best though, it works for me.
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I do something very similar to you except I always start at my wraiths and go wraiths -> wolves -> wraith jack (works vs any blue start, they're never fast enough to catch you if they started there) -> your smalls -> wraiths -> wolves -> wraithjack again depending on what's going on. Bluepill, evaluate game, get either madred's or boots + other stuff, go blue and continue on normal routes.
1/8/21 allows you to run a lot of really solid counterjungle routes because you have smite up in time to go wraith -> wolf -> wraith and smite both bigs. Alternatively you can jack his smalls, but it kinda forces you to bluepill after the jack so it's a bit interesting.
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I've been playing Cho'Gath the past few days, really like him, seems very strong.
Been building him like this:
Solo top or mid
9/21/0
regrowth pendant+health potion
boots (can grab philo stone+regrowth pendant if need more regen lane)
mejai's
If heavy AD:
ninja tabi+chainmail --> negatron --> frozen heart --> FoN --> GA
If heavy AP:
merc treads+negatron --> chainmail --> FoN --> frozen heart --> GA
Whenever I feel sufficiently tanky, I grab Deathcap. Usually this happens after the first Frozen Heart/FoN.
Why do I see high elo Cho'Gath players getting an RoA on him? Frozen Heart is beastly on him, and Glacial Shroud solves any mana problems he might have. For AP, Deathcap is better, and for health, well, fuck health, you don't need any more. Armor/MR are much better than stacking health. If you're having lane trouble and want catalyst, get philo stone+regrowth pendant instead.
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Catalyst is a great item for laning so RoA (or Banshee) is convenient
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On July 28 2011 10:47 R04R wrote:
Catalyst is a great item for laning so RoA (or Banshee) is convenient
Right, which is why I said you could just get a philo+regrowth instead, then not have to buy nooby RoA.
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whats ur opinion on abyssal / frozen heart as tanky items that 'do stuff'
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United States37500 Posts
On July 28 2011 13:18 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
whats ur opinion on abyssal / frozen heart as tanky items that 'do stuff'
FH is a must get for me. All that Armor, Mana, and CDR is king for Cho, especially at full 6 Feast stacks.
Abyssal is good alternative to Banshee's. Definitely underrated.
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So are we still of the opinion that Banshees is grossly better than FoN on Cho?
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you mean fon grossly better than banshees? if so then yes.
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Holy shit I need to update this, really badly. I'll do it tomorrow.
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You also need to not get out Master Yi'd. Think you can do that tomorrow as well?
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Funny thing is that I actually agree with FoN over banshees now, as hard as I argued against it before, and I love me RoA, never go Rylai's, almost never GA, rarely go deathcap and cdr builds are dead so throw that out too. Cho has changed so much in recent nerfs + metas that he's overshadowed by a lot of champs and extremely vulnerable to certain matchups top, and now he's sometimes bot lane (!). It's a crazy world we are living in.
And that's not fair, it was smite/tp yi vs smite/flash yi and my team had no escape summoners or cv lul  . Backdoor comps 4 lyfe.
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uhhh, what? Frozen Heart is still really good on Cho. Not that you'd get any other CDR, but Frozen Heart is still really good on Cho. Did I mention Frozen Heart?
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No, you still get FH, but FH is the only cdr item you'll have, so it's not exactly a cdr build.
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it's like, a lot of CDR to just have a Frozen Heart.
EDIT: out of curiousity, have you ever tried visage on Cho? I've always been a lousy Cho, but it seems like it makes sense with his passive, but maybe it sucks, idk.
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Used to run it core, now I think flat negatron is better, kinda weird because the components to build it have changed and they nerfed it into the ground, so it's a little harder to justify than it was ~7 months ago.
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Yea, I know the stat efficiency numbers are somewhat poor on it, but he gets some mileage out of the passive and SV + FH is just a really convenient CDR Tank core so I dunno. Hell, maybe even Reverie would be good on him, new skool mumu style.
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During the qualifiers for dreamhack Hotshot actually ran Reverie on him, it was pretty epic. The stats aren't huge but teamghost is bigger than people give it credit for. Then again, it was hotshot, he does what he wants and wins vs basically anyone that's not top pros.
My big thing against SV is that your lane sustain is already good enough to win almost all magic damage lanes and catalyst->fast rod is a pretty solid way to show up midgame and have the enemy team be like "oh shi--". You want the cdr as the lategame approaches more than early, and cho's limiting factor is almost always his mana, and delaying rod for too long gimps him a bit. Don't get me wrong, it's still useful in certain comps and matchups, but I think as an early item it's outclassed by catalyst and as a late game item it's not as strong as FoN/Banshee's. The cdr cap really is nice, though, I'll need to run more tests to see how I like it now that feast's damage is a lot lower, especially because the theorycraft still makes sense.
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might be smart to run a Philo -> Kindlegem then just forget about it until you want your reverie to keep the steady income and then get reverie late game to cap CDR post-FH when it actually matters the most. I think reverie is like, really really good on tanks that aren't too item dependent, team ghost is crazy good because on top of making your initiation easier, it also lets your team get in position to follow up faster (aside from the obvious chase-em-down or get-the-hell-outa-here uses).
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United States37500 Posts
Smash trying to theorycraft a tanky DPS that isn't Demacian. How cute.
XD
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I think Reverie just works with everything, kind of like Triforce and the Guile theme. And speed boost into feast is hilarious and makes it worth it just for that.
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I've seen people go Wit's End for damage instead of Deathcap, it seems interesting.
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Vorpal spikes damage is nothing to scoff at. It also gives MR which you always want on Cho'gath. Deathcap takes a lot longer to get but its obviously better.
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On July 29 2011 06:28 Slayer91 wrote:
Vorpal spikes damage is nothing to scoff at. It also gives MR which you always want on Cho'gath. Deathcap takes a lot longer to get but its obviously better.
its good damage to help you kill minions, but surely theres almost no situation where it pays to run in to melee range, with.... anything?
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On August 29 2011 08:51 Holykitty wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 06:28 Slayer91 wrote:
Vorpal spikes damage is nothing to scoff at. It also gives MR which you always want on Cho'gath. Deathcap takes a lot longer to get but its obviously better. its good damage to help you kill minions, but surely theres almost no situation where it pays to run in to melee range, with.... anything?
Well with Cho, at full feast stacks you're pretty much always in melee range of everything. You should be sitting on top of the enemy carries, soaking up skill shots and munching on their meager hides anyway.
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United States4053 Posts
On August 29 2011 12:01 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 08:51 Holykitty wrote:On July 29 2011 06:28 Slayer91 wrote:
Vorpal spikes damage is nothing to scoff at. It also gives MR which you always want on Cho'gath. Deathcap takes a lot longer to get but its obviously better. its good damage to help you kill minions, but surely theres almost no situation where it pays to run in to melee range, with.... anything? Well with Cho, at full feast stacks you're pretty much always in melee range of everything. You should be sitting on top of the enemy carries, soaking up skill shots and munching on their meager hides anyway.
Pretty much this. If there's any one champ you want to run headlong into the enemy team with, it's probably Cho. Annoying as fuck to kill if he's stacked and somewhat farmed, and even more annoying if you don't kill him thanks to his wealth of CC and decent damage. Plus, if Cho is standing there, it's actually physically tough to NOT hit him.
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i had a cho on my team with the legendary skin
his build before we lost: warmogs, phage
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Is Sunfire cape good on Chogath? Is it better because of his large size or does that not matter?
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On October 23 2011 06:09 BlackMagister wrote:
Is Sunfire cape good on Chogath? Is it better because of his large size or does that not matter?
nope, sunfire is pretty terrible on cho
if you want to get armor, you're better off choosing a choice that also gives a secondary stat. frozen heart gives massive amounts of CDR which is fantastic on cho'gath. randuin's gives some CDR and a nifty active.
he doesn't really need a load of HP thanks to his brokenly strong ult.
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Okay, so I just decided to play chogath after ages, (one of my first heroes about 5-6 months ago), since I was so tired of losing games because of playing characters where, even if i can carry my team is too stupid to protect me. Basically I wanted to take CONTROL over my game.
Anyways I decided to read up on the chogath thread and current builds and playstyles before getting back into it, and I must say, I never knew wits end was so good on him. :D Anyways, this is the best fun I've had in AGES and I've carried the past 7 games either by protecting the carry or actually just getting so stupid fed that I can build some ap for nuking.
TL;DR Chogath is AWESOME
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Has anyone in this thread discussed atmas/wits end ad cho? It is pretty sweet from what I have found. Wits end provides really great early game damage with vorpal spikes and atmas gives you some damage + armor. You should go straight tank after that and get red buff late game for you to be freaking sweet in team fights.
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On November 09 2010 05:31 Mogwai wrote:
for serious, the best use of Cho IMO is as a janky carry babysitter. You just stand your fat, 6 feast stack ass on your carry and then the opposing team has an impossible time actually clicking on the carry to kill them, LOL. It's so gay, hahaha.
Cho's hitbox OP!
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On November 14 2011 09:47 Reuental wrote:
Has anyone in this thread discussed atmas/wits end ad cho? It is pretty sweet from what I have found. Wits end provides really great early game damage with vorpal spikes and atmas gives you some damage + armor. You should go straight tank after that and get red buff late game for you to be freaking sweet in team fights.
Frozen heart -> Banshee/fon -> Wit's end opopopop
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Banshee real bad on Cho gath IMO. He's like a fucking skillshot magnet why would you ever get banshees over health regen on him. I almost prefer leaving catalyst or building ROA on him, I dunno. I guess getting banshee after fon isn't the worst thing against heavy AP damage. I feel like banshee is ONLY ever build because people like catalyst, which on cho, really isn't all that much better than getting more resists because you heal so much off creeps that having more resists, say replacing catalyst with chain mail+negatron is almost as good.
Fon vastly increases your ability to be a beast and hunt down AD carries as well. Chogath can't really carry his team like 1v5 status unless you make like hotshto and focus down their AD and then go kill everyone because you're too tanky for them.
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I've been messing around with my runepages on cho lately, and I've come to two conclusions:
A) aspd/ms page OP vs nasus, QWEEER R>E>W>Q and rush wriggles
B) Caster Cho OP solo mid QWWEWR R>W>Q>E
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On November 15 2011 05:39 Slayer91 wrote:
Banshee real bad on Cho gath IMO. He's like a fucking skillshot magnet why would you ever get banshees over health regen on him.
Because it's big and obnoxious
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On November 15 2011 06:54 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 05:39 Slayer91 wrote:
Banshee real bad on Cho gath IMO. He's like a fucking skillshot magnet why would you ever get banshees over health regen on him. Because it's big and obnoxious
thats actually the reason i get ga on him ^^
its a fringe benefit that it ends up being pretty good on him, i just like the huge ring
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I think Max-E on Cho is really underrated in a lot of matchups. Even though it has a lower burst potential, a lot of champions simply can't deal with Mr. Fatass clearing a wave in 3 seconds without spending hundreds of mana. If you can't clear as efficiently as Vorpal Spikes, you'll find yourself competing with your tower for last hits pretty damn quick.
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it works really well vs nid/nas~
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and actually i think the burst power on max e is ridiculously high, if you hit one rupture it's a guaranteed 2 autos with a TON of damage on it. lots of champs at lv 2-11 will straight up die if they get hit by rupture.
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hmnmnm thats something. get one level in q and then max e in lane. I need to try that.
maxing q is better against people who like range but theres a lot of people who like to stay close that its a lot better to max e first. this is a good thought guys congrads.
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actually you should max w vs most players, i think i put one point in q until everything else is maxed in most matchups unless I'm mid
IN OTHER NEWS
HOW TO BEAT SWAIN:
mpen red, mp5/lv yellow, scaling ap blue, flat ap quint
9/0/21
qwwewr R>W>Q>E
start dorans ring and it's 100% auto-win unless he's running flat MRs
I'll post vid
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United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:54 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 05:39 Slayer91 wrote:
Banshee real bad on Cho gath IMO. He's like a fucking skillshot magnet why would you ever get banshees over health regen on him. Because it's big and obnoxious
The best is running Ori with Cho, and seeing the ball rotating around Cho's head that's bigger than a normal champion.
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Idk the q does more dammage and has a better range. if I can't land the first couple q's I go for the w abuse but otherwise I think that q is just better in all ways.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 16:05 sermokala wrote:
Idk the q does more dammage and has a better range. if I can't land the first couple q's I go for the w abuse but otherwise I think that q is just better in all ways.
You're guaranteed a W off of every Q and can often W without a Q. The damage scaling is similar, but the big deal-breaker is the fact that W's silence duration scales. A 3 second silence is noticeably stronger than a 2 second silence, particularly in team-fights where you're locking 2-3 people out of their abilities.
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On November 15 2011 16:05 sermokala wrote:
Idk the q does more dammage and has a better range. if I can't land the first couple q's I go for the w abuse but otherwise I think that q is just better in all ways.
I used to think the same way. When you start playing against good players you'll realize how much stronger w is than q in lane.
My position:
Q has the same ap ratio regardless of how you level it.
Q doesn't gain anything but damage from leveling it, and damage isn't the main point of rupture.
Q is really hard to hit against good players and certain champs.
W gains silence duration.
W is pretty much always gonna hit, even against good players.
Also, can we move this over to the new Cho thread? This one.
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maxing Q over W is just silly.
W super easy to land
W gains silence duration
ok actually 5hit just said the same things so yes W please
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I've been playing Caster Cho mid and it's complete rape against certain champs and extremely hard against only one or two. You wreck almost anyone but Brand. Start W or Q, then go the other followed by R>W>Q>E with one point in E at 4.
Flat AP quints, mpen reds, mp5/lv yellows or flat ap yellows, ap/lv blues, something casterish like 22/0/8.
You completely dominate champs that don't open boots and don't have MR runes. It's silly. I've played games where I screamed Swains at level 3 for over 1/3 their HP, and there's nothing they can do about it besides eat a pot and play way back.
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Is Chogath a good counter to Olaf? Whenever people list counters to Olaf it's usually people who can kite him, but Cho is tanky with high health so true damage doesn't really matter to him even though he is technically melee. He has some spells to harass and his vorpal spikes do give him some range. His feast also seems to counter Olaf's ultimate, but before that I suppose it's just how well you use rupture like a lot of Cho's matchups.
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If you play it right you can win the matchup. I tend to crush olafs just because of the mindgames I play, but honestly I don't think a good olaf should ever lose to cho. At some point they should just be too tanky for you to kill unless you're going max e, which I sometimes do.
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are there any plans to update the OP? It seems somewhat outdated
also, do you have vods of your cho play 5hit?
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EPT
