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Roaches have been the standard mid-game unit for zerg players at the highest levels in HOTS for a long time. This is not just a meta-game trend. There are some common variations, such as roach + speed banes, roach + a splash of infestor or hydra, or muta into a roach transition, but roaches still form the base of the mid-game army. There is a good reason why roaches are the primary unit in the ZvZ midgame - they are the most cost efficient due to a “broken” critical upgrade. I will explain why below. The result of this “roach dominance,” is that Zerg players of all levels have less strategic options.
Viewers are also affected. I think most players and casters would agree that ZvZ is one of the least interesting mirror match-ups to watch from a strategic point-of view, because the games all look similar. Pro-gamers in TVT frequently utilize bio and mech mid-game compositions. Pro-gamers in PVP mid-games similarly see unit and tech diversity in the mid-game, with gateway and robotics units playing a role (though High Templar/Zealot Charge builds are shunned.) Pro-gamers in ZVZ who do not all-in in the early game will opt for a Roach base composition or one of the variations listed above in almost all cases.
The new Lotv beta units are a step in the right direction for ZvZ, as they provide viable midgame options to the roach. Unfortunately, the Ravager and Lurker only add ranged attacking options, without fixing the meelee line.
So why have high-level players historically opted for roaches other units in the mid-game? My subjective answer, is because roaches can cost effectively deal with ling-based compositions due to a well-know but potentially broken “critical upgrade.”
A critical upgrade is one which can dramatically affect how quickly one type of unit can kill another. For example, a zealot with + 1 melee weapons upgrade can kill a Zergling with 0 Carapace upgrades in two hits instead of 3. High level players need to know the critical upgrades that affect their units. Otherwise they may lose an engagement, and often the game. There are several appropriate counters a player can take when they scout or anticipate that their opponent is researching a critical upgrade:
1) Research the corresponding upgrade that would nullify the opponent's critical upgrade. In this example, the Zerg player could invest in +1 Carapace so their lings would take three attacks to die
2) Invest in units that are unaffected by the critical upgrade
3) Invest in an earlier expansion to produce many additional units to compensate for the critical upgrade.
The potentially broken critical upgrade that forces Zerg players to always go roach in ZVZ is ranged attack, specifically +2, and +3 ranged attack. The problem is that unlike other critical upgrades, the opponent cannot nullify it by researching the corresponding upgrade. Take a look at the analysis below. Remember that roaches have a single attack, get a +2 bonus for every ranged upgrade, and that zerglings have 35 health and 0 base armor.
Roaches with + 0 ranged attack kill zerglings with +0 carapace in 3 hits.
16 x 2 attacks = 32 damage = zergling lives
16 x 3 attacks = 48 damage = zergling dies
Roaches with + 1 ranged attack kill zerglings with +0 carapace in 2 hits.
18 x 2 attacks = 36 damage = zergling dies
Roaches with +1 ranged attack kill zerglings with +1 carapace in 3 hits
18 x 2 attacks = 36 – 2 for carapace (2 attacks negated by 1 point each) = 34 damage = zergling lives
18 x 3 attacks = 48 – 3 for carapace (3 attacks negated by 1 point each) = 45 damage = zergling dies
Roaches with +2 ranged attack kill zerglings with +1 carapace in 2 hits
20 x 2 attacks = 40 – 2 for carapace (2 attacks negated by 1 point each) = 38 damage= zergling dies
Roaches with +2 ranged attack kill zerglings with +2 Carapace in 2 hits
20 x 2 attacks = 40 - 4 for carapace (2 attacks negated by 2 points each) = 36 damage= zergling dies
Roaches with +3 ranged attack kill zerglings with +2 Carapace in 2 hits
22 x 2 attacks = 44 – 4 for carapace (2 attacks negated by 2 points each) = 40 damage = zergling dies
Roaches with +3 ranged attach kill zerglings with + 3 Carapace in 2 hits
22 x 2 attacks = 44 – 6 for carapace (2 attacks negated by 2 points each) = 39 damage = zergling dies
What this means is that a player wanted to use a ling based composition could research +1 Carapace to counter the inevitable +1 ranged roach upgrade. However, they could not repeat that strategy to deal with + 2 ranged. A player with + 2 ranged roaches would still kill lings in 2 hits even if the opponent researched + 2 Carapace. Similarly, +3 Carapace will not deal with +3 ranged.
This upgrade problem is fatal to Zerg players who wants to use a meelee composition. As mentioned above, there are alternate methods to deal with your opponent researching a critical upgrade, unfortunately neither of two remaining options can salvage a zergling-based composition.
One alternate solution is to invest in a quicker expansion and produce more units. If a ling-based player did this, they could produce more lings. However, large number of roaches scale up more cost effectively then lings with an upgrade disadvantage. Since lings need more surface area to attack, a clumped ball of roaches, can deal more damage then they absorb, especially in choke points or when up against a wall. Lings also have to close the distance to roaches to hit them, which is much more difficult when they die in two hits. This means that unless a Zerg player gets a perfect engagement with a full surround, they will not be able to trade cost efficiently.
A second alternate solution is to produce a different type of unit. This is the most typical answer to an critical upgrade problem in other match-ups. For example, in ZvP Zerg pro-gamers standard response to the Protoss going for a +1 zealot timing is to thrown down a Roach warren. There is no other viable alternate unit or composition in the Zerg midgame, assuming zerglings are out because of the upgrade problem, and the player wants to avoid pure roaches. Ling/roach, ling/bane, Hydra/ling, Muta/ling/bane and infestor/ling, (and now ravager/ling or lurker/ling) are all made inefficient because of the ling upgrade problem.
Ultralisks are never seen in ZvZ. In a match-up were lings will not help you, resources cannot be invested in the meelee attack upgrade, and the roach ranged attack will always be upgraded before carapace. A transition to ultra/ling would not be viable even if a player could survive the midgame, as the ultras would be minimally upgraded, and the lings would still be at a disadvantage because of the upgrade problem.
What is the solution? The roach's single ranged attack of 16 could be separated into two attacks of 8. The roach would just shoot two projectiles at once instead of one, like the current marauder change in the Lotv beta. Each + ranged attack upgrade should then be adjusted to only give roaches +1 damage per strike. This would mean that the carapace upgrade would also absorb 1 point per attack, and it would properly counter the ranged attack upgrade. Players who want to use a ling based composition would just have to keep on top of their carapace upgrade.
There are some side effects of this type of change. Since armor will have more of an effect against roaches, their attack will be less effective overall then they are now. Units with a base armor of 1 or more, such as stalkers immortals and Thors, will be slightly harder to take down with roaches, Ultras with bonus armor will be stronger against roaches, though I don't think that is necessarily a problem given the dearth of ultras in ZvZ and their higher tech. I think these side effects could be counter-acted with a minimal weapons speed buff for the roach, but would probably need some balance testing.
The developers have made it know they are trying to diversify ZvZ. Ravagers and lurkers add ranged-based options, but the upgrade problem discussed above still will hamper Zerg from using melee-based compositions.
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Well, I can't really say whether or not that would do anything, since I know very little about modern zvz, but...
maybe the solution would be to re-think the roach? Having a short-ranged, no air-attack ground unit at hatch tech partly caused the issues with banshee/hellion and forcefield dominance. I like the idea of a sc1-style hydra with a weak attack vs smaller, lighter targets, with a lair-tech ravagers and roaches to shield them from a roving pack of ling/bane.
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I actually do not think your belief about Roaches being the only viable option in ZvZ to be true at all, even more so in LOTV than HOTS. I literally never play Roach in ZvZ unless I transition out of mutalisks into Roaches, I always play Mutalisk style in ZvZ and I think the Mutalisk style of ZvZ will be even more prominent in LOTV than HOTS to be honest.
You can absolutely still open with Mutalisks first in every single ZvZ game that you play.
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On June 08 2015 16:58 PineapplePizza wrote:
Well, I can't really say whether or not that would do anything, since I know very little about modern zvz, but...
maybe the solution would be to re-think the roach? Having a short-ranged, no air-attack ground unit at hatch tech partly caused the issues with banshee/hellion and forcefield dominance. I like the idea of a sc1-style hydra with a weak attack vs smaller, lighter targets, with a lair-tech ravagers and roaches to shield them from a roving pack of ling/bane.
that would have been the sensible way to go ever since sc2 came out, but blizz is too stubborn to do the obvious and switch hyd/roach tech req
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On June 08 2015 18:15 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 16:58 PineapplePizza wrote:
Well, I can't really say whether or not that would do anything, since I know very little about modern zvz, but...
maybe the solution would be to re-think the roach? Having a short-ranged, no air-attack ground unit at hatch tech partly caused the issues with banshee/hellion and forcefield dominance. I like the idea of a sc1-style hydra with a weak attack vs smaller, lighter targets, with a lair-tech ravagers and roaches to shield them from a roving pack of ling/bane. that would have been the sensible way to go ever since sc2 came out, but blizz is too stubborn to do the obvious and switch hyd/roach tech req
Maybe because even T2 hydralisks are fragile and get trashed out easily, so moving them to T1 with damage nerfs, specially vs light, would make them very very weak, even for cost. Consider that Hellions, Banshees, Oracles, Phoenixes, Adepts, Zealots and Zerglings are all light units, and so are Marines. Roach Hydra would be weaker tan now. I don't really mind and I think it is worth a try, but consider:
Hellions >T1 Hydra with notably reduced damage vs light
Banshee > T1 Hydra with notably reduced daamge vs light
Oracles > T1 Hydra with reduced damage vs light (Pulsar Beam has amazing DPS)
Zealots`+FF > T1 Hydra with reduced damage vs light
LingBane > T1 Hydra with reduced damage vs light.
Also, since Hydras are light, ZvZ would be a banefest turning into Roach rush since Roaches would be the only midgame unit that is resistent to banelings and efficient vs lingbane on ground. It's not like a T1 Hydralisk is going to solve the problems Zerg has early game in ZvT or ZvZ. ZvT would probably be Terran favored since early game Hellions would be even more powerful and ZvZ will switch to mass ling-bane. They were testing Roach/Hydra for almost 2 years, and probably they found that the early game units, specially light ones, were stronger vs Hydralisks than on BW. Hellions with AoE and bonus vs light, buffed Marines, Banelings, FF, Phoenix openings and now Adepts... these SC2 things indirectly make BW Hydralisks indirectly weaker than they were.
Imao the problem is that they never took the time to fix Hydralisks at T2 as a strong DPS unit. Roaches are quite like a copy of a WC3 unit (I don't remember the name now) and they have worked fairly well as early/midgame game units in SC2. The problem is that transitioning out of Roaches to Hydras has not been really worth it, since Hydralisks in SC2 have suffered from very poor design. They copypasted the BW Hydralisk with almost same upgrades and simply buffed the damage until it felt useful. Hydralisks are very very fragile, lack of HP and armor and complementary mechanics, and don't move really fast to be microable. Being at 2 supply and 50 gas, they should be a bit stronger without being so heavy and reliant on DPS, because if they land some good AoE hits on Hydras, gg. With Disruptors and Adepts being added to the game and the actual unit set from Z and T, actual Hydras will feel weak again.
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On June 08 2015 19:03 JCoto wrote:
Roaches are a copy of a WC3 unit (I don't remember the name now).
I had to force myself to keep reading after I read this, I cannot for the life of me think of which unit you are referring to...Grunt?
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On June 08 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 19:03 JCoto wrote:
Roaches are a copy of a WC3 unit (I don't remember the name now). I had to force myself to keep reading after I read this, I cannot for the life of me think of which unit you are referring to...Grunt?
Not, some kind of reworked Crypt Fiend with some wierd stats. Burrow + burrow health regen micro. Arachnoid creatures, kinda like Roaches too.
You can't negate that Zerg and Undead have some heavy echoes. Blight/Creep, Ghoul/Zergling, Crypt Fiend/Roach.
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On June 08 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 19:03 JCoto wrote:
Roaches are a copy of a WC3 unit (I don't remember the name now). I had to force myself to keep reading after I read this, I cannot for the life of me think of which unit you are referring to...Grunt?
Grunts aren't ranged...
Huntress?
Crypt fiends?
Riflemen?
Headhunter?
And I don't even know how such a comparison makes sense aside from the fact that they would both be a basic, tier 1 ranged unit..
On June 08 2015 19:41 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote:On June 08 2015 19:03 JCoto wrote:
Roaches are a copy of a WC3 unit (I don't remember the name now). I had to force myself to keep reading after I read this, I cannot for the life of me think of which unit you are referring to...Grunt? Not, some kind of reworked Crypt Fiend. Burrow + burrow health regen. Arachnoid creatures, kinda like Roaches too. You can't negate that Zerg and Undead have some heavy echoes. Blight/Creep, Ghoul/Zergling, Crypt Fiend/Roach.
Any zerg unit can burrow... Aside from that... yes blight and creep could be considered similar and ghouls and zerglings could be considered similar (adrenal glands <-> ghoul frenzy).
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On June 08 2015 17:23 GGzerG wrote:
I actually do not think your belief about Roaches being the only viable option in ZvZ to be true at all, even more so in LOTV than HOTS. I literally never play Roach in ZvZ unless I transition out of mutalisks into Roaches, I always play Mutalisk style in ZvZ and I think the Mutalisk style of ZvZ will be even more prominent in LOTV than HOTS to be honest.
You can absolutely still open with Mutalisks first in every single ZvZ game that you play.
I agree completely with this, the current meta is much more muta in zvz when i play too.
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On June 08 2015 17:23 GGzerG wrote:
I actually do not think your belief about Roaches being the only viable option in ZvZ to be true at all, even more so in LOTV than HOTS. I literally never play Roach in ZvZ unless I transition out of mutalisks into Roaches, I always play Mutalisk style in ZvZ and I think the Mutalisk style of ZvZ will be even more prominent in LOTV than HOTS to be honest.
You can absolutely still open with Mutalisks first in every single ZvZ game that you play.
@ GGzerg - As I discussed above, Muta to roach transitions are still occasionally seen at the highest levels. Players who opt for muta in the early mid-game will almost always revert to roaches in the late mid-game, including yourself. This is because the upgrade problem makes muta/ling/bane cost inefficient. An opponent going roach/hydra/infestor vs muta/ling/bane or muta/ling will not win at the highest levels. From diamond to masters, some players still get away with this. They use waves of banes from different directions to target the hydras. Sometimes they get lucky and their mutas can clean up the roaches . This is rarely seen at the highest levels, as pro-gamer will briefly borrow their hydras or use fungal to deal with the banes, and then the muta player has to deal cost- inefficiently with the roach-based composition
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EPT
