Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
wow 9 hours and not 1 comment. ded gaem/site. overall i think most of the changes are for the better. some obvious nerfs and various adc feel good buffs that probably stabilise the clown meta. only change i think is stupid is the death timer change. the entire point of killing a guy is to make them fall behind...why would you try and reduce that. wtf? also it just makes assassins even more worthless to play than they already are and teamfight/waveclear champs more attractive.
Redemption is new Banner, only so bad nobody would buy it?
I do not quite understand how J4 buffs are supposed to be helpful, 20 damage minimum seems super niche, and his E doesn't need a CD decrease. He's not a bad pick, but isn't played for other reasons.
Jinx has become king of AD scaling, and Twitch looks to have a pretty scary lv 2 all in if he gets those stacks. But that doesn't matter because they won't get picked.
The twitch change is bonus AD so his level 2 should be relatively unchanged
base+12 before base +16 now if you start Dblade and the difference is smaller at anything less than max stacks. As long as his ult is considered bonus it will be a pretty good buff to his level 6.
I wanted to see them nerf Irelia damage reduction, but they only touched her damage, which might be a better way to make her playable but balanced, where a big nerf to the damage reduction coould (maybe) kill her, it still triggers me that knock ups don't cancel the reduction, it's a channeled ability.
Zoe W nerfed, but I don't think enough to be honest, Zoe and Singed nerfs both feel like they are aimed at making the people complaining shut up and not actually changing anything. The tipping point for me, that took me from liking to play Zoe to just wanting her hard nerfed was when I realized maxing W 2nd and rushing lich bane just lets you kill people without ever hitting anything. The theoretical counter of just get on top of her is completely reversed by spell thief and passive.
to be honest I don't really think Lucian needed to be nerfed, I mean he's good but he has his flaws, idk I don't really mind playing against him.
Rageblade nerf is probably reasonable, as evidenced by Aatrox being able to abuse it straight up takes a champ from the dumpster to top tier, but I can't tell if this is a champion outlier problem more than an item problem or vice versa, for now I think, reasonable choice.
It's so fucking funny how they are reverting the entire philosophy of "kills/towers should give gold to everyone not just 1 person".
Also hilarious how they just left crit items as is.... I have always hated RNG but it is really stupid that you have to pick a champion that can build rageblade/nashors if you wanna right click people.
Honestly I just think crit adc being viable in a 1 item meta is more balanced than them being viable. If the game slows down and they still suck then we have a problem.
I actually came to the conclusion that Ashe is really strong in solo q right now after I got over the fact she isn’t as strong as before the adc nerf. She’s really punishing vs. 4-5 melee teams without windwall, she spikes on 1 item (Bork), she’s one of the better tower protectors on 2 items (hurricane) and she does a ton of damage on 3 (IE). It sucks that reaver sucks but I definitely recommend trying out Ashe.
The problem isn't that the game is too fast. The problem is they are bad even after they buy the items. You should be stronger than the other champions to compensate for the fact that you don't have a first item to build and you need to save up 1300 gold 2 times. Compare this to kaisa or varus who not only have a decent 1 item spike but they keep doing more damage at any point of the game.
I was thinking of marksman vs other classes, but yea within the class there is def an issue, but nerfing the scaling on rageblade (partally) adresses this
On June 28 2018 16:23 Fildun wrote: I feel like there was too little early game snowballing already and now they reduced it even further.
yeah i dont think snowballing was the problem. the problem was bot lane being too strong, which they completely dumpstered with 8.11 anyway. bot lane snowballing out of control was a thing, but it wasnt relevant to 1v1 lanes so seems the current change is off the mark.
the new 1-5 death timer is awful, if you get a kill with ignite in an ignite vs. tp lane and spend any hp to get the kill at all it's lane losing.
I laned vs. Aatrox for the first time, got killed level 3 with pool up because I had no idea what his box with a chain thing did. TP'd back losing one minion and bullied him off the wave just in time to set up a perfect freeze
Aegis of the Legion Aura removed. Health removed. MR increased. Armor added.
There’s just no way around it: Aegis of the Legion is too strong. No amount of magic resist would feel impactful on one champion without being overpowered on five, so we’re removing the aura. With that out of the way, we need to give supports other ways to accomplish what Aegis of the Legion did: protect their team. To do that, we’re introducing a few new items and bolstering a few old friends. More on that in a bit.
But what does Aegis look like without its aura? The Aegis line is for low-level champions who are at risk of deletion, yet are expected to roam and ward alone (supports and utility junglers, that’s you). With assassins running around, Aegis is the perfect buy to feel a bit safer straying into the Fog of War.
On July 04 2018 10:42 Jek wrote: I just discovered the Predator+Ghostblade Garen build. I dont think I'll ever play anything else.
Having two movement items feels really nice. My jungle Cho build runs predator and I build cinderhulk shurelias Warmog with the item CDR rune. Once you’ve got two speed items and a few stacks you really just zoom all over the map. Fun stuff.
Try Olaf with celerity/nimbus cloak; I also opt for ghost in favor of flash even though it's technically worse. shiv/deadman's/RG/stormrazor as items; this combo of secondary runes and items will make the first hit count, as well as the true damage! I use press the attack in primary rune slot but you could make a case for predator. It can be hilarious at times how fast you delete a carry.
On July 05 2018 04:37 Slayer91 wrote: yea which is actually good
my point exactly
I dont really think you can compare the two styles. Once you have Cleaver and Ghostblade the Predator build is a legitimate melee carry while the more traditional build is a juggernaut, if you team needs a frontline the more tanky approach is certainly better no doubt.
his ad ratios and mobility aren't that good that building squishy makes a lot of sense because you're the natural target to focus assuming they are in any way grouped and have cc
i'm not sure how much actual garen you've played I don't think you'll find ghostblade adds all that much damage
I mean grasp isn't that great on garen you could realistically go predator instead of that and skip ghostblade which seems like a meh investment compared to either steraks or deadmans
lethality is quite nice on garen the problem is by the time you get your stacks of cleaver and E up typically most of your physical damage is already done and you still have your R for the rest of your damage.
honestly its not bad but you might as well just build trinity it'll probably work out better
the real reason not to go predator is it makes your lane phase weaker but if you don't have to worry about that it's good for flanking enemies in teamfights
Trinity is pretty interesting because it's not THAT easy to proc on him but it adds a ton of damage more than building AD probably would anyway especially if you are attacking during your E downtime. The extra move speed is nice too.
I've honestly never really tried it, no idea how strong it is in comparison to building BC.
I think predator is actually a decent idea, similar to vlad, allows you to get into the enemy team for free which can be very good for garen because he's so tanky with his W and doesn't need to constantly auto to do damage.
I think we won a lot of tournament games with me coming in from behind on garen and scip initiating from the front and the enemies kind of have to focus the frontline but can't really stop us getting on the squishies. Problem is some of the better teams would just ward really well and avoid it, but with predator its harder to avoid those kind of flanks.
Please do not nerf TP into non-viability, remove it or rework it. Making it into an item like Stopwatch is imo the way to go, that way late game becomes very interesting when a champion has to reconsider if they want to keep it over another item, and we can still get a BD.
Yes, and making that an option is fine if it gets balanced. 500g for example would discourage people from just buying it for no reason, and also prevents the boring 'get whacked in top, recall and TP back to win lane' when your opponent runs ignite, since you trade gold for experience. It might lead to some crazy abuse early on, but it's Riots job to find a good balance between up and downsides.
It's either that, or remove it from the game. I'd be really interested in a season without TP. Summoner spells in general could do with some more variability, one of the few game mechanics that hasn't seen a full rework in years.
I really like the direction they are taking with Ghost Poro. The buff of being able to move through bushes as normal without messing up your existing poro is huge. The extra stats to reduce what you give up compared to eyeballs is nice too.
I think if this change goes through this would probably be my default rune for this slot. Being able to ward two gank paths at level 2-4 instead of just one is a big deal. Late game being able to have 5 wards on the map instead of 4 is a big increase in vision.
So basically strong duelist junglers that can invade early are going to start with half a longsword? Udyr and Shaco are going to be soloQ terrors. Lane bullies get half a longsword too? Free stats while diving? As much as I like Riot encouraging aggressive play, I'm not too sure of this one.
On July 10 2018 03:16 Jek wrote: So basically strong duelist junglers that can invade early are going to start with half a longsword? Udyr and Shaco are going to be soloQ terrors. Lane bullies get half a longsword too? Free stats while diving? As much as I like Riot encouraging aggressive play, I'm not too sure of this one.
The 5-20 adaptive stats seems to be for AP (see picture), so it would less for AD. It's less stats than absolute focus which is not easy to maintain if you have a healthy clear.
I really hope Riot doesn’t bend and just make adc the strongest by a lot again in the face of fanboys asking for it. The fact that they outright refuse to address support strength means that if crit adc becomes viable it will crowd out bot lane diversity instantly.
Also tanks struggling at the moment has the possibility of double dipping with tanks and crit getting buffed in the same patch.
I agree, maybe my wording was bad but what you are saying is exactly what I’m saying, only with I can see crit adc buffs happening in the same patch causing a very large swing in the usefulness of crit adc.
I mean I don't think buffing crit adcs will nerf tanks as I was saying things like ap kaisa varus and conqueror bruisers who do a ton of true or magic damage (jax darius fiora camile) are the real things killing tanks not crit adcs who can get cc'd or itemized against (randuins/fh/armour/hp)
if tanks are struggling and people are picking 3 bruiser 1 tank support and 1 mage it doesnt matter how strong crit adcs are you can just get hard dived on
The problem with tanks is they can't kill towers. It isn't that difficult to lane vs conqueror in soloq.
Also this whole meme of "ads were the strongest role" is just so funny. I must be playing a different game cuz that has never been a thing. ADs are ONLY good if you pick a team that peels and builds items to give you damage. Otherwise most other champs are significantly easier to be useful with.
yea but that was the case for ages with pre nerf censer
you just pick janna/ADC + rush censer and if the enemy did something else you win easy
also i never said tanks can't lane
i mean tanks could never kill towers so I don't see how that's a valid argument for them suddenly being weak after like 8 years of them being always picked in pro play
On July 15 2018 09:00 nafta wrote: Also this whole meme of "ads were the strongest role" is just so funny. I must be playing a different game cuz that has never been a thing. ADs are ONLY good if you pick a team that peels and builds items to give you damage. Otherwise most other champs are significantly easier to be useful with.
You mean like.... How the game was played for roughly 9 years?
On July 15 2018 10:02 Slayer91 wrote: yea but that was the case for ages with pre nerf censer
you just pick janna/ADC + rush censer and if the enemy did something else you win easy
also i never said tanks can't lane
i mean tanks could never kill towers so I don't see how that's a valid argument for them suddenly being weak after like 8 years of them being always picked in pro play
On July 15 2018 09:00 nafta wrote: Also this whole meme of "ads were the strongest role" is just so funny. I must be playing a different game cuz that has never been a thing. ADs are ONLY good if you pick a team that peels and builds items to give you damage. Otherwise most other champs are significantly easier to be useful with.
You mean like.... How the game was played for roughly 9 years?
I want some of your games if this is the main way your league of legends games have been going these last 9 years.
On July 15 2018 09:00 nafta wrote: Also this whole meme of "ads were the strongest role" is just so funny. I must be playing a different game cuz that has never been a thing. ADs are ONLY good if you pick a team that peels and builds items to give you damage. Otherwise most other champs are significantly easier to be useful with.
You mean like.... How the game was played for roughly 9 years?
I want some of your games if this is the main way your league of legends games have been going these last 9 years.
I dont know about you but in most of my games the ADC have had at least 25% of their team members playing specifically picked champions to help and enable them since before minions have even spawned. They have usually also been the primary focus to kill, protect and peel for.
ADCs have had VIP treatment since people realized having them in botlane was pretty smart (tm). The funnel strategy have essentially existed since day 1 it was just in botlane rather than mid and then as in now the champion being funneled is usually an ADC.
The only period they were not always expected to be a hard carry on the team was during the lethality period and now.
ADC are the most important champion in the game besides this meta, but that doesn't mean carrying with them was easy. You're squishy and have a big target on your head. Every season, Riot introduced more champions and mechanics in the game that allow you to reach the ADC and kill them in 100 different ways, to the point where the only way an ADC is going to live in competitive is if he positions well AND he has a supportive team who do the right thing. Even Uzi couldn't overcome that barrier.
I've come to the general conclusion in soloQ that having an OK ADC with a great support is far more desirable than a great ADC with an OK support, because the support makes plays, the ADC is just there to deal damage. Only way to have a real impact as ADC is to be significantly better than your opponent. And if you misposition as an ADC you lose entire games because their support/jungler/top/mid makes 'big' plays.
The funnel strategy have essentially existed since day 1 it was just in botlane rather than mid and then as in now the champion being funneled is usually an ADC.
ADC farming is not the same as a funnel strat, otherwise we'd be calling Syndra with 11 cs/min a funnel strat as well. ADC get farm priority after laning phase, funneling occurs during laning phase itself primarily. And ADC never came to fights 2-5 levels over their opponents, when you're so ahead you can literally just A-move as Yi or outDPS carries with E as Karthus. Allocating farm is not funneling.
On July 15 2018 09:00 nafta wrote: Also this whole meme of "ads were the strongest role" is just so funny. I must be playing a different game cuz that has never been a thing. ADs are ONLY good if you pick a team that peels and builds items to give you damage. Otherwise most other champs are significantly easier to be useful with.
You mean like.... How the game was played for roughly 9 years?
I want some of your games if this is the main way your league of legends games have been going these last 9 years.
I dont know about you but in most of my games the ADC have had at least 25% of their team members playing specifically picked champions to help and enable them since before minions have even spawned. They have usually also been the primary focus to kill, protect and peel for.
ADCs have had VIP treatment since people realized having them in botlane was pretty smart (tm). The funnel strategy have essentially existed since day 1 it was just in botlane rather than mid and then as in now the champion being funneled is usually an ADC.
The only period they were not always expected to be a hard carry on the team was during the lethality period and now.
The reason ADCs got "VIP" treatment was due to destroying 2v2 with a support and being good at killing towers in an era before herald and the nash that buffs minions. The new runes giving everyone tons of damage and the base stats nerf just makes them so weak. This is even ignoring the whole crit items being dogshit.
Just think back to how much damage your flair did last season to now.
I wouldn't say the VIP treatment is because of them being good at killing towers or 2v2. The VIP treatment came from the way scaling works in League. A single ranged carry going full damage was order of magnitudes stronger than a ranged carry going mixed. Ranged full damage carries also out damage any other kind of carry in the game. This causes an arms race of trying to get your ranged carry to peak power faster than the opponent because it nets you the biggest advantage. Now a full damage carry is obviously going to be susceptible to the enemy which pushes them out of solo lanes and instead into protected position. This creates an solution of just putting the carry in a bot lane with support.
Now you aren't incentivized to run melee carries and your opponent has a ranged carry duo in bot lane, what do you stick against that? A throw away initiator that can clear waves and doesn't need gold! That's how you get the lane swap meta. The funnel composition we see these days is really just the core of the lane swap idea make even more hyper focused by sacrificing the jungle movement for an even more accelerated carry.
What Riot is doing with ADC isn't inherently wrong, the issue is more timing of the changes than anything else. They have spent years creating heroes with very minute differences in kit all to feed a hyper specialized role that shouldn't necessarily be mandatory. They normalized power curves across heroes creating this "race to the bottom" and removing individuality. Would ADC be in this poor position if heroes had less homogenized curves? It's tough to say. I think what they trying has some merit and definitely speaks to better design than previously but they doing it at a terrible time and should really be iterating more. I'd love to see the day where teams can pick early, mid, late or hyper late scaling compositions and all have their merits. Let's get to those Anti-mage vs Spectre slugfests or Alchemist craziness!
edit: Hell one of their newest heroes has designers essentially saying "here's a better vayne!". That's just real shoddy work man.
On July 17 2018 07:00 Numy wrote: I wouldn't say the VIP treatment is because of them being good at killing towers or 2v2. The VIP treatment came from the way scaling works in League. A single ranged carry going full damage was order of magnitudes stronger than a ranged carry going mixed. Ranged full damage carries also out damage any other kind of carry in the game. This causes an arms race of trying to get your ranged carry to peak power faster than the opponent because it nets you the biggest advantage. Now a full damage carry is obviously going to be susceptible to the enemy which pushes them out of solo lanes and instead into protected position. This creates an solution of just putting the carry in a bot lane with support.
Now you aren't incentivized to run melee carries and your opponent has a ranged carry duo in bot lane, what do you stick against that? A throw away initiator that can clear waves and doesn't need gold! That's how you get the lane swap meta. The funnel composition we see these days is really just the core of the lane swap idea make even more hyper focused by sacrificing the jungle movement for an even more accelerated carry.
What Riot is doing with ADC isn't inherently wrong, the issue is more timing of the changes than anything else. They have spent years creating heroes with very minute differences in kit all to feed a hyper specialized role that shouldn't necessarily be mandatory. They normalized power curves across heroes creating this "race to the bottom" and removing individuality. Would ADC be in this poor position if heroes had less homogenized curves? It's tough to say. I think what they trying has some merit and definitely speaks to better design than previously but they doing it at a terrible time and should really be iterating more. I'd love to see the day where teams can pick early, mid, late or hyper late scaling compositions and all have their merits. Let's get to those Anti-mage vs Spectre slugfests or Alchemist craziness!
edit: Hell one of their newest heroes has designers essentially saying "here's a better vayne!". That's just real shoddy work man.
I can't say that in my experience ADCs are the highest damage output. Unless we are talking about kog/lulu or twitch when enemy has shit engage mages are generally better since they don't need to live long.
I was under the impression people are talking about soloq not pro games when it comes to balance up until you mentioned lane swaps. In pro games when people actually try to pick comps and there are games where not everyone is retarded things work very differently.
From what I read they just realized they messed up super hard doing such drastic changes mid season and just trying a small temp fix that is rather inelegant but shouldn't cause any random cascade effect. Think it's fine for now as long as they do go after the real issues later instead of focusing down this path.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/47c50f260dbe775d3aa49d2a6f059277.png)
