EPTand before anyone thinks I'm hating, I think jack is definitely overreacting. I just also think ads left himself way too open with the tone and content of the article.
NA LCS Players' Assoc. Silent in C9/Selfie Drama - Page 3
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
and before anyone thinks I'm hating, I think jack is definitely overreacting. I just also think ads left himself way too open with the tone and content of the article. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On January 08 2018 17:52 DarkCore wrote: It's pretty sad that we have to defend Ads from the tweets of a team owner. I don't understand why he didn't just contact TL quietly, sounds like an impulsive reaction on his part. The same result would've been achieved. not like the guy mad he wasnt contacted about publically stated nonsense would ever get the idea to not contact anyone before publically stating nonsense that would just be hypocritical | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 09 2018 03:39 Dandel Ion wrote: not like the guy mad he wasnt contacted about publically stated nonsense would ever get the idea to not contact anyone before publically stating nonsense that would just be hypocritical Isn't this exactly backwards? He got shit on publicly, so it's natural that he would respond publicly. Why would we expect him to defend himself in private against extremely public and unflattering allegations? It's rather rich to be now talking about professionalism and the proper way to do things after we fucked up first. He's fighting a reputational battle here. The more publicly and loudly he expresses his view, the less likely it is that 6 months from now people are like "oh yeah didn't C9 fuck over Selfie that one time". | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing? | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
sure and no, it's not. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 09 2018 07:08 Yorbon wrote: If I understand it correctly Ads published an article one or two days before C9 released a statement on the same issue. After the c9 statement apparently a lot of concerns raised in the article seem unfounded. Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing? I feel like you answered your own question. If you post things that are later shown to be unfounded, that's about as good evidence as you can get that you were in the wrong. Maybe you can't be held criminally liable for libel without reckless disregard for truth (though some would say not contacting C9 for comment would count), but people are certainly entitled to be pissed at you. Like if LS told me that you cheated on your wife, and without asking you for confirmation, I just go ahead and post on Facebook telling all our friends that you cheated on your wife, and you hadn't actually, wouldn't you be pissed at me? Would it really make things better if I was like "OK well I didn't KNOW it was false, I just didn't bother to check if it was false or not"? And then when you got mad at me and defended yourself publicly, imagine that I had the gall to tell you "Pretty sad you didn't come talk to me privately about this. That would imply you were a professional. I still think it's funny how I"m so much more professional than you about this." | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
Also, "we" lol. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I feel like you answered your own question. If you post things that are later shown to be unfounded, that's about as good evidence as you can get that you were in the wrong. Maybe you can't be held criminally liable for libel without reckless disregard for truth (though some would say not contacting C9 for comment would count), but people are certainly entitled to be pissed at you. You are taking this way too far, calling libel lol. The article wrote pretty clearly that most of it was speculation, and that's the nature of early reporting. Are you supposed to report on news only when all the facts have come to light? In terms of actually content quality, it's quite low, and a bit sensationalist, but no way as bad as actual tabloid trash. Libel is a pretty loose term, but in most cases you only really bring it up when the purpose of the text was to damage the party in question. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
Good to see Nazgul sticking up for Ads (and the broader community). I sincerely hope future content doesn't make any concessions to team owners in response to the absurd reaction to this article. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On January 06 2018 15:30 AdsMoFro wrote: Hey, Thanks for the feedback. I will try to ensure my next article of this tone does reach out to those in question, even tangentially as such. On the C9 being put in a negative light, I feel like most of the negative light is being shed on the players association but regardless I can understand your point. Just a question. Should the Player's Association not be involved in dozens of players being transferred across teams due to franchising? Is it not something they should be a part of to ensure that players aren't locked into what could essentially be ghost contracts due to basically no fault of their own? As far as we can tell, over three weeks transpired between his contract being transferred to C9 and his offer to be the substitute for the academy roster being denied. By then, most teams would have had their eye on rosters or even signed contracts. Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong. This could just be an unfortunate situation where "shit happens" and Selfie has to wait out a split. I'm saying that the players association should be there to help these unfortunate situations from happening and as such have failed in their role which means that the tone of the article changes from silence to ineffectiveness but the tone stays relatively the same. Now whether I made that clear enough in the article is debatable. With this many people getting it wrong, I guess I didn't. I'll try and ensure my next pieces are more accurate in their message. Wew, I'm super late with a response. Sorry Ads. To start, I think Kaneh's post earlier covers the part about the player's association involvement. It was Selfie's responsibility to request guidance if he felt he needed it. Unlike the player associations of traditional sports (which are unions), the NALCS PA is essentially an open resource for the players to help them make their own career decisions. I think it's pretty clear now that Selfie's ability to make sound career decisions is... less than stellar. As for this bit: Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong. The entire article was written from the skewed perspective of Selfie's Reddit post. Even parts of the article like this: He declined the offer, however, due to the aforementioned pay issues, he was unable to secure a release from his contract. ...ended up being extremely misleading, as Selfie could, in fact, have secured a release from his contract. He opted not to. Nevertheless, it was reported as a fact that he was stuck in the contract with no options. Bits like that are scattered across the article, which is what primarily casts C9 in a negative light (just as Selfie's Reddit post did). The icing on the cake is then the declaration that the PA should have been involved, as if there was something that Selfie needed protection from (other than himself). The article was written under the assumption that the PA is a union (even though it's not), and unions only need to intervene when members are being mistreated. The great irony is that a PA representative could have been involved, if only Selfie had requested it. That is, again, Selfie's own failure. Nevertheless, all of this could have been avoided entirely with only a request for comment by C9. Jack's frustration on the matter is a result of the Liquid brand holding more weight than the average Joe's speculation blog. You claim innocence when it comes to explicitly saying the words "C9 did something wrong", but the sentiment is threaded throughout the article. Just read the subtitle: In its first big test, the NA LCS players association has failed to even register on the radar, as the furor over Cloud9’s treatment of Marcin “Selfie” Wolski rages on. Bold emphasis mine. It doesn't get much more bandwagon than that short of an explicit condemnation. Why was this a big test for the association? The very same sentence specifies: C9's treatment of Selfie. Oh, and the community is outraged about it -- but no, the article doesn't imply C9 did anything wrong, not at all.  I feel like a few mental hoops had to be jumped through to make the case that the article attempted to be neutral to C9. You can't be critical of the PA for failing to act on something C9 did, but then also claim that what C9 did was perfectly fine. What point is there to being critical of the PA then? Exactly what should they have been expected to do for Selfie, especially given the full facts that came out with C9's statement (which again, a failure to even request comment from the org)? What exactly was the purpose of this article? The article only holds relevance under the presumption that C9 was in the wrong over Selfie's treatment, which is exactly why it has aged poorly. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On January 09 2018 07:08 Yorbon wrote: If I understand it correctly Ads published an article one or two days before C9 released a statement on the same issue. After the c9 statement apparently a lot of concerns raised in the article seem unfounded. Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing? In the wrong in three ways: 1. Taking a Reddit self post at face value 2. Making assumptions regarding the effectiveness of the NA LCS player's association based on said Reddit post 3. Failing to even attempt at getting a response from C9 before publishing | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 08 2018 19:51 Fildun wrote: Well that would imply that he is a professional, which given how many people in the esports industry get their job is very unlikely. I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined. Why is it funny? Naz was doing BW and managing before most people posting here were even born. In fact, there are a number of us with wives and kids now so a lot of experience goes a long way. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 27 2018 23:09 StarStruck wrote: Why is it funny? Naz was doing BW and managing before most people posting here were even born. In fact, there are a number of us with wives and kids now so a lot of experience goes a long way. Probably because its funny (insane) that people give $20 million investments to guys who make Trump look like a responsible twitterer. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On January 28 2018 04:30 cLutZ wrote: Probably because its funny (insane) that people give $20 million investments to guys who make Trump look like a responsible twitterer. There wasn't anything Jack tweeted that wasn't justified. While this article was written in the same way -- and with the same standards -- that all previous TL community features were subject to, it's precisely because e-sports is now an industry pulling $20 million investments that this standard now sits well below what should be acceptable. Jack absolutely needed to publicly defend his org's reputation and discourage inaccurate, sub-par content from a trusted source like TL. Either TL, as an active e-sports organization, needs to better scrutinize what goes into a featured piece (proper journalism) or it needs to distance itself from community contributions (properly separate TL from the community sites). Naz and Steve have indicated they're intending to do the latter, but it's 100% on TL for not keeping up with industry expectations on this front. The Liquid brand holds a lot of weight these days and just as Jack couldn't determine the difference between the org and the community, neither can the average Joe who reads this article and thinks it's sanctioned by the org (which is, ultimately, what justifies Jack's tweets). | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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