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Pretty sure the Tribunal works, and works far better than it used to two years ago.
That being said, I believe the best product for the consumer (be it electronics, clothing, or the Tribunal) isn't entirely due its intricate engineering or quality; a lot of it has to do with how it is being sold and how it feels for the consumer (see that JC Penny video again). While I have never been punished by the Tribunal and probably never will, it is my opinion that the Tribunal possibly lacks "the human element" and human empathy. As a result, it feels bad (especially if you are the one being punished). The way some of the Rioters behave on their ask.fm and other social media doesn't help with this either - sometimes I feel that the way they act is a little obnoxious. I think the way people call out Lyte's PhD degree sarcastically reflects this.
I think what Riot's behaviour team needs (and maybe Riot as a whole) is better PR discipline as well as "selling" their product better. As someone with fairly heavy academic background, I think I can see how Lyte thinks about the Tribunal - it's about maximizing prediction accuracy while minimizing false positives. In fact I'd agree with him that this is the way to go. However, treating players as merely numbers and statistics is probably not the best way to sell the Tribunal to the players.
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I think I agree.
Riot for me has a fairly long history of doing the right / intelligent thing, and then submitting it to the public in a way that makes smart decisions look awful.
Might be because these academics making good systems are the same people trying to explain them.
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iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
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On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote:
iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
http://ask.fm/RiotLyte/answer/132562353346
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed.
2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you!
3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
I think that implementing an instant feedback that punishes players for bad behaviour right after the game + leaverbuster that just bans people that AFK/Leave the game is a very good way to deal with 4v5, as those situations are not likely to repeat in the future.
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On October 26 2015 13:34 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote:
iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation. Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now. Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment: http://ask.fm/RiotLyte/answer/132562353346Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago. Lyte basically said the following: 1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR. I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm. You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
if someone afk's at the 10 or 12 minute mark, I'd count that as a 4v5 too, and I've had that happen in definitely >2-3% of my games in the last month or two.
People getting mad because someone said something, or did something, or whatever then just abandoning an even/winning game.
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Yeah there are multiple scenarios that I'd call a 4v5 that aren't reflected in your analysis.
Instances where someone connects, stays an amount of time and then leaves.
Instances where someone stays connected but refuses to play / griefs the team / feeds etc.
Instances where somebody afks for a very long period of time (more than like 5 minutes)
All in all I'd say situations like that are as likely or even more likely than somebody never connecting.
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I think the 25+ min win percentage bump is pretty easy to figure out, obviously you surrender at 20 automatically in almost all 4v5 situations unless you are absolutely crushing them in the lanes you do have, so getting them to come back at that point is just an extra body for them to have to deal with before they can get to your fed people.
4v5 is quite possibly the worst feeling in this game for everyone involved, the winning team and the losing team, even the 5-10 min bracket you have listed is a game I just want to be able to leave, I don't even care if it's not loss forgiven it feels like a punishment, like the timeout when you dodge, feels less bad than min 10 to min 20 in this instance.
there's a reason the community brings it up a lot, when it happens it sticks with you for a couple of days.
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In the last month more than 10% of my games have been 4v5s. I've played a lot, so it's most likely not just variance. I personally think it's a pretty big issue.
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On October 26 2015 13:34 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote:
iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation. Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now. Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment: http://ask.fm/RiotLyte/answer/132562353346Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago. Lyte basically said the following: 1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR. I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm. You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
His answers there don't even make sense, because leaver buster should result in an mmr compensation so the system is more accurate. Then he just says that the LP part on the front end has been more challenging because its hard to balance not punishing losers with rewarding winners. Bing bang boom, any college grad in the room that doesn't drink the riot coolade says this and its fixed as a statement ( mostly). IMO you are being too charitable in not living the two.
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crushed garen in lane, late game he still kept ulting me for 1.6k true dmg with a full tank build, what a fun concept and great idea by riot hope we see more true dmg in the future ...
User was warned for this post
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So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
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On October 26 2015 22:18 AlterKot wrote:So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
How is playing in a window meant to help with tunnel vision?
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Everything is closer to my center of vision so even if I focus on one thing it's still significantly easier to notice some other random shit.
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iirc if you play on 4:3 you see less of the map. In that case, it won't be helping with tunnel vision and be putting you in forced tunnel vision.
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Personally I have been playing on 1366x768 for years but the main reason was so I could play on the same resolution everywhere. Don't think it helps much for that shit.
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On October 26 2015 22:18 AlterKot wrote:So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
It really doesn't matter I think.
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I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
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On October 26 2015 23:44 killerdog wrote:
I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
is this allowed in competitive or is this just like a soloq thing? Genuinely curious not trying to dispute you
I remember people saying that Madlife was able to time everyone's summoners and skill cooldowns and that was one of the big reasons he was considered a god, and I assumed Madlife did this without documentation in tournament games
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On October 26 2015 23:44 killerdog wrote:
I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
Not everyone does, Faker plays full screen I'm pretty sure.
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EPT
