[Patch 5.4] Wubwubwub General Discussion - Page 6

On February 25 2015 21:22 739 wrote:
Secret Agent Xin Zhao skin looks stylish as fck, I'd buy if I played Xin.

On February 25 2015 22:01 Purge wrote:
Hmm. Id argue that the truth is that they dont have the experience of Icefrog et al in balancing a MOBA and they have been slowly figuring it out as they go. I think you are pretty clearly glossing over everything that they do right and screaming out their failures.

The easiest one is champion design - season 2 was pretty fucking bad. Its to the point that honestly if i was going to make a League version of Captains Draft i would exclude the vast majority of the untouched heroes from S1+2. Poppy, Warwick, Varus, Taric, Diana for example just based on design they're subpar. Most of the champions released after that have been venturing deeper and deeper into new niches. Look at Bard for example, just fantastic design. If you want a melee carry you grab Yasuo, he has a ton of meaningful tradeoffs that make him exciting. That right there is a major redeeming factor to me. They are constantly improving and with the amount of reworks that are coming through, Im feeling more and more that the game is coming to a point where all champs are unique and equal.

Also you bitch about jungle diversity (and rightfully so), but I think that competitive jungle diversity is really not a simple issue. Problem is that in Nash Equilib you want a champion that affects the game early, and your tank to have enough gold to hard carry (ala Mao and Alistar S4 top meta) so they dont get put in the jungle. Making that not the optimal choice isnt easy, because as is demonstrated just buffing them doesnt work or they just get sent to top lane to get more gold. The truth of the matter is that sure Lee and company are kind of boring to watch, but they really arent the only things available in soloq for play like everyone seems to think. The jungle metas are completely different with soloq meta being nowhere near as strict or somewhat binary. So I'm wiling to watch Riot come up with something. I can wait on that because:

Riot has been getting much better with champion diversity in every other lane. Mid has opened up, bot is opening up to some degree and top is like a whole different world from even 2 patches ago. Gnar is falling through draft with his rage nerfs, Kennen is really strong, Sion is good, Trist has yet to see real play but shes fine, Kog is good, control mages are becoming meta with assassins not being irrelevant. Honestly now they just need to tone down Liss and open up carry potential with some picks like Jax or something and we have a nice healthy balance of different drafts available for teams. Do you remember when Double AP stopped being a thing for like 3 seasons? Good stuff imo so far all in all. Again solid improvement.

And then we have all of the seasonal changes this season. Top quality systems changes imo - Dragon seems to flow now, Baron is pretty fun to use and has counterplay, all the Elixirs are quite good (and I still think Ruin is going to fuck up the meta, its really good), ADC build paths are much more diverse and situational and Mages should be getting some real love in the next few patches.

I mean they're not perfect, they have this absurd lag in their balance changes (like it took them 2months to nerf Gnar's reliability to where it needed to be) and still feel like they have a solid 20 champions to go through for reworks but they demonstrate at least to me a general good understanding of where the game should be going and I can follow them. They do tend to sit in their ivory tower.


All that being said, I think its hubris to sit here on our armchairs talking about how shit a job they do and how every decision they make is wrong. It comes off as obnoxious. We dont have any of the actual oppurtunity costs to weigh and for all the uproar we make of their decisions, Im not seeing anything that is a "This will kill this game for everyone" atm.

On February 26 2015 01:14 kongoline wrote:
first game today vs zilean mid and not gonna lie he seemed pretty bonkers

On February 26 2015 02:02 Slayer91 wrote:

how is that a nash equilibrium and not just a dilemma
nash equilibrium is when both opposing sides choose a mutually sub optimal choice because choosing the mutually optimal choice is only good when the other guy isn't trying to screw you over

On February 25 2015 22:21 nafta wrote:
How are adc build paths diverse wtf?Don't get me wrong I don't think it is possible to be diverse unless they add 5/6 new items but still.Also especially the ad role is just so fucking unstable because of crits and it doesn't look like they intend to change that any time soon.The pick diversity is a myth too.Yeah you can play a lot of champs but it doesn't make it good.In solo you can do w/e.

However I have enjoyed every new season more than the last so can't really complain too much.

On February 26 2015 02:13 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:


No that's not what a Nash equilibrium is. Nash equilibrium does not necessitate sub-optimal choices, it's simply the best choice taking into consideration the opponent's choice. The classic prisoner's dilemma case is but an example of a Nash equilibrium, which could be both players choosing the most globally optimal choice as well if the payoffs were different.

But yes you are correct in that what Purge said is not a Nash equilibrium either.

On February 25 2015 21:22 739 wrote:
Secret Agent Xin Zhao skin looks stylish as fck, I'd buy if I played Xin.

Also is it me or this Mandrake Ward or however is it called is a stupid idea? I mean, automatically pinging when enemy appears in 1000 range? Map awareness pls.

On February 26 2015 02:57 Purge wrote:
The way I was looking at it was that in the case of junglers, in the current metagame at a competitive level noone has has a superior alternative to having their jungler able to execute high impact plays early game, so all teams do it. No team also will,have a tank that does not have solo lane farm because that maximizes their utility with the least cost so if both teams want to run a tank they run them top lane. I suppose thats really 2 different NE for 2 different situations, the combination of which imo prevents tanks from being played in the jungle. The exception of course is Nunu, who is unique.

Maybe i shouldnt write long, rambling posts at the tail end of allnighters. Oh well, apologies.

On February 26 2015 02:57 Purge wrote:
The way I was looking at it was that in the case of junglers, in the current metagame at a competitive level noone has has a superior alternative to having their jungler able to execute high impact plays early game, so all teams do it. No team also will,have a tank that does not have solo lane farm because that maximizes their utility with the least cost so if both teams want to run a tank they run them top lane. I suppose thats really 2 different NE for 2 different situations, the combination of which imo prevents tanks from being played in the jungle. The exception of course is Nunu, who is unique.

Maybe i shouldnt write long, rambling posts at the tail end of allnighters. Oh well, apologies.