EPTAgain though, having Mikaels, Locket, Randuins, etc is more useful than having Lich Bane or other damage items. Your job is not to one shot carries and few support heroes even possess a kit where it is possible to do so.
[Patch 5.4] Wubwubwub General Discussion - Page 14
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Again though, having Mikaels, Locket, Randuins, etc is more useful than having Lich Bane or other damage items. Your job is not to one shot carries and few support heroes even possess a kit where it is possible to do so. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:12 NeoIllusions wrote: You've made a number of incredulous claims today in GD, most of which is opinion/"solo queue playstyle" But plz stop talking out of your ass about stuff you don't know about. I know for a fact that all of Riot's QA positions pay a lot better than $20/hr. What is this "quick lookup" you're referring to? Entry level QA position for riot on glassdoor (I would presume this is an entry-level job, no?) And yeah obviously there's a whole balance team that already exists, but the general QA position has diamond people in there. Also I'm pretty sure Morello got paid more than $20 and he was silver. Also I'm not attacking people for working (any job is respectable), I'm attacking riot for hiring the wrong people for a position that seems shaky at best. Riot has a relatively high turnover rate, after all. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:34 101toss wrote: Entry level QA position for riot on glassdoor (I would presume this is an entry-level job, no?) And yeah obviously there's a whole balance team that already exists, but the general QA position has diamond people in there. Also I'm pretty sure Morello got paid more than $20 and he was silver. Also I'm not attacking people for working (any job is respectable), I'm attacking riot for hiring the wrong people for a position that seems shaky at best. Riot has a relatively high turnover rate, after all. Do they have a high turnover rate? That's something I've never heard. Who would you suggest they hire? Who are the "right" people for the job? Morello making X amount of money at Y elo means absolutely nothing. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
No thresh box/j4 ult both are different from Kinetic field. Kinetic field is a wall, like j4 ulti, but how veigar if you tried to dash ut of it (spirit rush, body slam, kalista passive ect) you would just keep ramming against the wall. but you could flash/arcane shift/rift walk it, because those are teleporting abilities rather than dashes. Video for those that don't play dota: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:41 jcarlsoniv wrote: Do they have a high turnover rate? That's something I've never heard. Who would you suggest they hire? Who are the "right" people for the job? Morello making X amount of money at Y elo means absolutely nothing. It's kinda dated, but http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/14/4522160/riot-games-scores-in-best-tech-employers-list "On a less positive note, one contributor warned that employee turnover is high. 'They have a culture of comradely, but also a culture of high standards,' wrote the anonymous employee. 'As a result, people will get let go that you might have had a personal connection with.'" Personally I would prefer riot to hire some pro-players, have a minimum cutoff at masters, and not have a silver player as the head (I'm not sure if morello is still in charge of balancing). Then again, if I ran riot myself, from a business standpoint it makes sense for bad players to balance the game since they make up most of the userbase. It's like the concept for planet fitness. Balance is in the eye of the beholder I guess. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:50 101toss wrote: It's kinda dated, but http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/14/4522160/riot-games-scores-in-best-tech-employers-list "On a less positive note, one contributor warned that employee turnover is high. 'They have a culture of comradely, but also a culture of high standards,' wrote the anonymous employee. 'As a result, people will get let go that you might have had a personal connection with.'" Personally I would prefer riot to hire some pro-players, have a minimum cutoff at masters, and not have a silver player as the head (I'm not sure if morello is still in charge of balancing). Then again, if I ran riot myself, from a business standpoint it makes sense for bad players to balance the game since they make up most of the userbase. It's like the concept for planet fitness. Balance is in the eye of the beholder I guess. That article does not at all suggest that there is a high turnover rate. It stresses that they hold a bar of high quality, which is in line with many anecdotes I've heard from there. "People were fired because they weren't good enough, and that might make you sad if they were your friends." | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:54 Ansibled wrote: While having feedback from high elo and professional players is obviously important, I don't think that qualifies you to be in charge of balance and nor do I think people who aren't high elo will be unable to balance the game well. While I agree having low-elo balance person can be good for game health (you don't want low-elo players to quit because they think akali is op), this last patch as well as several others illustrates how incompetent the balance team can be sometimes. Yes, veigar did need to be changed as archaic point-and-click champions (toxic gameplay) are being phased out. However, the way stuff is done is just so arbitrary and sometimes just flat out doesn't make sense. Stuff like the ahri q ms buff and this patch just seems like riot is throwing darts all over the place without actually thinking or testing (why is there a pbe) Also I know like 3 guys at riot who switched jobs within a year, idk if they were fired fwiw | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
Is a play tester that disagrees with a change like the veigar "rebalance" a bad tester because he went against THE VISION? I dont work there, so i dont know, but a corporate memo of "high standards" can lead to a high pressure enviroment which spawns all kinds of nonproductive behaviours. | ||
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lefty
United States1896 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
On February 27 2015 05:05 LaNague wrote: ah, and who decides if a playtester isnt good enough? Is a play tester that disagrees with a change like the veigar "rebalance" a bad tester because he went against THE VISION? I dont work there, so i dont know, but a corporate memo of "high standards" can lead to a high pressure enviroment which spawns all kinds of nonproductive behaviours. From what I've been told it's more like a start-up kind of gig. They probably have the high standards memo, though. I guess if you think about it, the veigar rebalance is good since it got rid of a toxic champion. Riot isn't there to cater to people who only play veigar, they cater to having people not quit league and not buy skins since they got killed by veigar's instant 2.5s stun. | ||
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IamPryda
United States1186 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:54 Ansibled wrote: While having feedback from high elo and professional players is obviously important, I don't think that qualifies you to be in charge of balance and nor do I think people who aren't high elo will be unable to balance the game well. Well the ideal situation for a game is that it's balenced at the highest level of play. League has shown that it wants the game to be balenced for both high level lcs play and solo q. This why champs like Kat see nerfs despite never making an impact on the pro scene. Yet riot can't balence the jungle/ junglers despite having an unhealthy amount of junglers viable right now across solo q and lcs | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:59 jcarlsoniv wrote: That article does not at all suggest that there is a high turnover rate. It stresses that they hold a bar of high quality, which is in line with many anecdotes I've heard from there. "People were fired because they weren't good enough, and that might make you sad if they were your friends." I don't agree with the guy, but high standards doesn't always mean high quality. it depends on what those standards are. an employee could be an excellent QA employee, but not make enough "team building" opportunities, (like the parties and drunk league mentioned in that inside view of riot a while bac), and be fired for not meeting that standard. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On February 27 2015 05:13 IamPryda wrote: Well the ideal situation for a game is that it's balenced at the highest level of play. League has shown that it wants the game to be balenced for both high level lcs play and solo q. This why champs like Kat see nerfs despite never making an impact on the pro scene. Yet riot can't balence the jungle/ junglers despite having an unhealthy amount of junglers viable right now across solo q and lcs It's the blizzard vs riot philosophy For sc2, blizz was balancing at the highest level of play. What ended up happening was that ladder players got fucked by this balancing and I dare say that sc2 is almost dead. For lol, they cater to the casuals (most players) while throwing in a nerf to X champion Faker played (because casuals think anything Faker picks is OP). Even though it's not good for higher level ladder player, it keeps most of the playerbase satisfied and buying skins. This itself isn't bad. The problem is when you have flat out dumb balance ideas. Ahri q, etc. where people actually defended her 58% winrate immediately after the patch shows the problem with balancing around the community. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
They then compounded the outrage by tackling "unhealthy game-play patterns". One of the hardest things you can do is remove a powerful but poorly designed skill from a champion that depends on it (Veigar/Kassadin). These changes have to happen but it is definitely a moment of "things are gonna get worse before they get better". | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5232 Posts
On February 27 2015 04:30 Ansibled wrote: Six items, at least three or four of which are support oriented unless you somehow got enough gold to sell everything else. Again though, having Mikaels, Locket, Randuins, etc is more useful than having Lich Bane or other damage items. Your job is not to one shot carries and few support heroes even possess a kit where it is possible to do so. Sorry, but please, you're wrong. Yes, in keeping an adc alive that can't peel for himself a Mikaels, Randunis -and if they have alot of aoe damage-, Locket is good. But if you have divers going for your adc who are kinda squishy or if your adc has a bunch of self peel or if you've picked a champ to set up engages, initial burst or flatout blowing someone up with your 'hypothetical 6 items' can be just as good if not better. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
Better to remove/rework (effective removal) these champions than to balance them. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On February 27 2015 05:40 Uldridge wrote: Sorry, but please, you're wrong. Yes, in keeping an adc alive that can't peel for himself a Mikaels, Randunis -and if they have alot of aoe damage-, Locket is good. But if you have divers going for your adc who are kinda squishy or if your adc has a bunch of self peel or if you've picked a champ to set up engages, initial burst or flatout blowing someone up with your 'hypothetical 6 items' can be just as good if not better. So the original conversation was talking about selling Sightstone for Lichbane as a sixth item. This isn't about some hypothetical magic land where supports get infinite amounts of gold. Items like Mikaels and Locket give you a lot more effectiveness in fights for how much you spend. Selling your sightstone for Lich Bane is stupid. Lich Bane has no place on support itemisation, including in the lategame. You will never be at a gold/experience threshold, again even in the lategame, to do enough damage and there are almost no supports that have an appropriate kit to do what you're suggesting. This kind of ability to blow people up is vision reliant too, and you're selling sightstone to make this happen. Even if you have itemised something like Deathcap/Lich/Void, you're still not going to be at a strong enough item threshold to kill an ADC with everything up at 60 minutes. You're never going to get to a point where you are at a comparable item level to your midlaner in a game that isn't troll and you sacrifice so much team utility and power to even try. What are you planning to do, Flash within 500 range to land a Sona powerchord? You will flash forward into their team and instantly die, support aren't assassins. The important targets will have some form of defense in Banshees/QSS and you won't do enough damage to kill anything with a Lich Bane. If the support could easily do what you're suggesting they would be played in lane that gets farm. | ||
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