On January 19 2015 04:07 Slusher wrote: if you are vs a lb(or any assasin), BT is the lesser evil of cowl 3rd item.
because of what clutz said
also Zed damage to shields does not count towards his ult 2nd proc, so shields are strictly better than armor early-mid game vs. him
It wasn't too long ago that BT didn't have a shield. There are ways to survive back then and it hasn't changed.
Just stay really far back and wait for her to use her spells on one of your allies. If she goes W+R just to reach you, then you should be able to 1v1 her. If she's so fed that she can kill you with just q and e then you should just surrender.
On January 18 2015 19:14 RaphaelSanzio wrote: If you were only allowed to play 5 champions for the rest of the season (no matter how many nerfs/buffs they get) and your goal was to climb as high up the ladder as you could, who would those champs be?
fun question.
Nami, Twitch, Fizz, Azir, J4
that said I'm way too ADHD to even play my mains half the time.
On January 19 2015 04:07 Slusher wrote: if you are vs a lb(or any assasin), BT is the lesser evil of cowl 3rd item.
because of what clutz said
also Zed damage to shields does not count towards his ult 2nd proc, so shields are strictly better than armor early-mid game vs. him
It wasn't too long ago that BT didn't have a shield. There are ways to survive back then and it hasn't changed.
Just stay really far back and wait for her to use her spells on one of your allies. If she goes W+R just to reach you, then you should be able to 1v1 her. If she's so fed that she can kill you with just q and e then you should just surrender.
there are also ways to farm mid that don't involve going a sustain item first (morello/Athene) like for instance you could go s2 double doran into dcap, it just turns out sustain first is the most consistent/foolproof way to get gold.
On January 19 2015 03:56 nafta wrote: Biggest problem of sejuani support is leona exists.
Sejuani roams better because she can avoid the intense amount of wards that exist in pro play, thats why wraith maxed Q, so he'd be able to move around the map better, but that game got crazy out of hand because of a few strategic mistakes.
Of course there has to be at least 1 upside for it to get picked.But if you look at everything else leona is just superior.Her ult and e can't get bodyblocked and she can actually not die in 1 hit from anyone.
When BT didn't have a shield, doran blades were 5 HP per hit and IE was more expensive than BT while providing up to 30 AD less. So dblades didn't scale as well in terms of sustain as soon as you got your BFS. BT was stronger on anything with AD ratios, and since IE would lose to BT 1v1 and only get stronger after the 2nd item is completed, it wasn't built early (hence why champs like Tristana weren't popular too).
During the few patches until BT gained its shield in exchange for lower AD and a higher price, tank itemisation in general, and armour in particular (FH, Randuin's, and their respective build paths) got nerfed over and over, meaning marksmen were more effective in the pre-LW phase of the game, and sustain during fights was not as important too (since enemies would die faster).
There's a mix of factors, and "lifesteal sucks lol you should never buy it ever" is not one of them. Lifesteal when you have a marksman's damage output is actually very strong in duels against anything but an assassin with his cooldowns up. When the goal of the AD carry is to stay alive, lifesteal ensures he's healthier than the remaining enemies when the clean-up phase occurs, and with their cooldowns down there's less burst, meaning he'll have more time to leverage his sustain. Every second his lifesteal buys him is one more second of dps to kill stuff. But that's only when fights become less front-loaded, which generally occurs around level 14 when most damaging skills stop scaling (and assassins/burst mage have 2 core items so they gain relatively less damage from the next ones).
On January 19 2015 03:56 nafta wrote: Biggest problem of sejuani support is leona exists.
Sejuani roams better because she can avoid the intense amount of wards that exist in pro play, thats why wraith maxed Q, so he'd be able to move around the map better, but that game got crazy out of hand because of a few strategic mistakes.
Of course there has to be at least 1 upside for it to get picked.But if you look at everything else leona is just superior.Her ult and e can't get bodyblocked and she can actually not die in 1 hit from anyone.
I mean, sejuani has one of the best stat growth and base stats for survivability in the game. and having an ability be able to be blocked isn't a reason to say a character is bad, leona's E can go awry if you make sure you are the last person hit rather than the person leona wants to jump onto, and jumping into a sej ult in competitive play is pretty much going to get your team killed either way. there are definitely reasons to pick her in a comp especially because she can actually disengage and escape unlike leona, but samsung wasn't winning that game with any support at the time. they rely on wraith making all the plays and he had an off-game period.
On January 19 2015 04:25 Alaric wrote: When BT didn't have a shield, doran blades were 5 HP per hit and IE was more expensive than BT while providing up to 30 AD less. So dblades didn't scale as well in terms of sustain as soon as you got your BFS. BT was stronger on anything with AD ratios, and since IE would lose to BT 1v1 and only get stronger after the 2nd item is completed, it wasn't built early (hence why champs like Tristana weren't popular too).
During the few patches until BT gained its shield in exchange for lower AD and a higher price, tank itemisation in general, and armour in particular (FH, Randuin's, and their respective build paths) got nerfed over and over, meaning marksmen were more effective in the pre-LW phase of the game, and sustain during fights was not as important too (since enemies would die faster).
There's a mix of factors, and "lifesteal sucks lol you should never buy it ever" is not one of them.
That's cool and I agree with all those points except none of them really goes against my argument. In fact, it only strengthen my argument since BT was actually more powerful and a more attractive buy back then. If you agree that IE is a core first buy now then it naturally follows that Ghostblade/Shiv/PD/TF are better options than BT in damage.
I understand that damage isn't the only factor considered when pros decide to buy BT and I'm fine with that. However, I'm seeing a lot of BTs and botrk even in games where there isn't a huge assassin threat. I don't think many of them actually thought it through before deciding on a build, and merely followed the most popular one. So before you dismiss my suggestion, just try it out. I've been seeing more success with it than with the conventional build so I want you to see for yourself.
well your original post didn't caveat that, yes, going lifesteal on non bork first adc is pretty worthless vs. mage mids. your original post just blanket statement called it bad, just like your "bad players" are blanket statement calling it good.
that said I think botrk adc are really good vs. mage mids so there is that to consider >.>
On January 19 2015 04:25 Alaric wrote: When BT didn't have a shield, doran blades were 5 HP per hit and IE was more expensive than BT while providing up to 30 AD less. So dblades didn't scale as well in terms of sustain as soon as you got your BFS. BT was stronger on anything with AD ratios, and since IE would lose to BT 1v1 and only get stronger after the 2nd item is completed, it wasn't built early (hence why champs like Tristana weren't popular too).
During the few patches until BT gained its shield in exchange for lower AD and a higher price, tank itemisation in general, and armour in particular (FH, Randuin's, and their respective build paths) got nerfed over and over, meaning marksmen were more effective in the pre-LW phase of the game, and sustain during fights was not as important too (since enemies would die faster).
There's a mix of factors, and "lifesteal sucks lol you should never buy it ever" is not one of them.
That's cool and I agree with all those points except none of them really goes against my argument. In fact, it only strengthen my argument since BT was actually more powerful and a more attractive buy back then. If you agree that IE is a core first buy now then it naturally follows that Ghostblade/Shiv/PD/TF are better options than BT in damage.
I understand that damage isn't the only factor considered when pros decide to buy BT and I'm fine with that. However, I'm seeing a lot of BTs and botrk even in games where there isn't a huge assassin threat. I don't think many of them actually thought it through before deciding on a build, and merely followed the most popular one. So before you dismiss my suggestion, just try it out. I've been seeing more success with it than with the conventional build so I want you to see for yourself.
What are you going to do with trinity force on champions who literally never use it. What is the reason to ignore last whisper in favour of ghostblade, especially on champions like Varus.
Like, for real, you're going to have 250 damage, useless trinity force proc on half of champions if not more and 100% crit chance with 6%+20 armor penetration. Cool. Also you spend 15503 gold, so it's not like you will get it earlier than 35-40 minutes into a game at least and you ignore qss and lifesteal except for 3% from dorans blade, so your 100% crit chance gives nothing against towers and tanks, who have 75% physical damage reduction at this point, so you're barely scratching them.
On January 19 2015 04:25 Alaric wrote: When BT didn't have a shield, doran blades were 5 HP per hit and IE was more expensive than BT while providing up to 30 AD less. So dblades didn't scale as well in terms of sustain as soon as you got your BFS. BT was stronger on anything with AD ratios, and since IE would lose to BT 1v1 and only get stronger after the 2nd item is completed, it wasn't built early (hence why champs like Tristana weren't popular too).
During the few patches until BT gained its shield in exchange for lower AD and a higher price, tank itemisation in general, and armour in particular (FH, Randuin's, and their respective build paths) got nerfed over and over, meaning marksmen were more effective in the pre-LW phase of the game, and sustain during fights was not as important too (since enemies would die faster).
There's a mix of factors, and "lifesteal sucks lol you should never buy it ever" is not one of them.
That's cool and I agree with all those points except none of them really goes against my argument. In fact, it only strengthen my argument since BT was actually more powerful and a more attractive buy back then. If you agree that IE is a core first buy now then it naturally follows that Ghostblade/Shiv/PD/TF are better options than BT in damage.
I understand that damage isn't the only factor considered when pros decide to buy BT and I'm fine with that. However, I'm seeing a lot of BTs and botrk even in games where there isn't a huge assassin threat. I don't think many of them actually thought it through before deciding on a build, and merely followed the most popular one. So before you dismiss my suggestion, just try it out. I've been seeing more success with it than with the conventional build so I want you to see for yourself.
What are you even suggesting? Almost no one is getting BT until after core 3 items. If you're talking about offensive 4th item, more AS becomes almost a waste. Unless you've got shields and heals for days where you can afford to stand still and just auto attack without moving, you're almost always going to be kiting back, by that time you want to maximize damage per shot, as opposed to just pure DPS, because you're not being efficient with your 2nd AS item.
Also on the BotRK front, who are you seeing build BotRK? The only person I see build it consistently is Vayne, and that's because that 1 item timing is super strong for her. Maybe Varus with E max? But, I don't ever seen Varus, so there's that... Maybe BotRK on Ez? Yeah, I dunno what ADC's you've been seeing that are getting BotRK, but it's a pretty rare occurrence now a days....
On January 19 2015 04:25 Alaric wrote: When BT didn't have a shield, doran blades were 5 HP per hit and IE was more expensive than BT while providing up to 30 AD less. So dblades didn't scale as well in terms of sustain as soon as you got your BFS. BT was stronger on anything with AD ratios, and since IE would lose to BT 1v1 and only get stronger after the 2nd item is completed, it wasn't built early (hence why champs like Tristana weren't popular too).
During the few patches until BT gained its shield in exchange for lower AD and a higher price, tank itemisation in general, and armour in particular (FH, Randuin's, and their respective build paths) got nerfed over and over, meaning marksmen were more effective in the pre-LW phase of the game, and sustain during fights was not as important too (since enemies would die faster).
There's a mix of factors, and "lifesteal sucks lol you should never buy it ever" is not one of them.
That's cool and I agree with all those points except none of them really goes against my argument. In fact, it only strengthen my argument since BT was actually more powerful and a more attractive buy back then. If you agree that IE is a core first buy now then it naturally follows that Ghostblade/Shiv/PD/TF are better options than BT in damage.
I understand that damage isn't the only factor considered when pros decide to buy BT and I'm fine with that. However, I'm seeing a lot of BTs and botrk even in games where there isn't a huge assassin threat. I don't think many of them actually thought it through before deciding on a build, and merely followed the most popular one. So before you dismiss my suggestion, just try it out. I've been seeing more success with it than with the conventional build so I want you to see for yourself.
What are you going to do with trinity force on champions who literally never use it. What is the reason to ignore last whisper in favour of ghostblade, especially on champions like Varus.
Like, for real, you're going to have 250 damage, useless trinity force proc on half of champions if not more and 100% crit chance with 6%+20 armor penetration. Cool. Also you spend 15503 gold, so it's not like you will get it earlier than 35-40 minutes into a game at least and you ignore qss and lifesteal except for 3% from dorans blade.
Amazing build for real.
I never said to build Trinity on champions who don't use it or ignore LW. You still build Trinity only on champs that build it but add a ghostblade on top of it.
Here's how I build my champs nowadays:
AD Scaling Champs (Graves, Lucian, Varus, MF) IE/PD/LW/GB/Boot/Defensive item. Switch 3 and 4 if enemy team doesn't stack armor.
The guy has no clue why are you bothering.If you don't have lifesteal and you get hit by 1/2 poke abilities you are out of a fight.And with how popular poke is it's pretty much impossible to dodge everything.Sustain lets you go in fights and ignore the support/tank damage which you can't do without lifesteal.Let's not forget about tanking turret shots so you can actually get damage on it.
Sure there are situations where not getting lifesteal until very late is fine but they are very rare.
I guess we are just saying that ADCs never get hit by poke or AOE? This argument is like the guy who says Tanks vs. Zerg are useless because you can just micro to nullify the banelings for cheaper.
On January 19 2015 04:51 nafta wrote: The guy has no clue why are you bothering.If you don't have lifesteal and you get hit by 1/2 poke abilities you are out of a fight.And with how popular poke is it's pretty much impossible to dodge everything.Sustain lets you go in fights and ignore the support/tank damage which you can't do without lifesteal.Let's not forget about tanking turret shots so you can actually get damage on it.
Not to mention you're always bound to get hit by some form of AOE, short of not being in the fight at all, you're almost never going to be able to dodge everything.
Also BT shield synergizes with whatever resist you end up building as your last defensive item as well. Not to mention lifesteal and sustain are super crucial on following up fight wins. It allows you to continue pressuring the map after winning a teamfight. Also damage pershot on turret is pretty key as well.
On January 19 2015 04:54 cLutZ wrote: I guess we are just saying that ADCs never get hit by poke or AOE? This argument is like the guy who says Tanks vs. Zerg are useless because you can just micro to nullify the banelings for cheaper.
I simply cannot comprehend not going assassin build on Twitch if your goal is to win solo Q games
also usually go GB 2nd on mf and don't bulid any additonal attack speed at all, although that isn't a common build by any means, I think it's really good.
(Bruta>IE>GB>LW>BT=DEF)
and yes I swap IE and BT vs. assasins because her mobility is ass, sue me.
I don't feel like doing the full maths on it, urgh. Basically when you have IE+PD, even with the Ghostblade's added crit chance you won't increase your damage by as much as BT. Ghostblade is good as an early item because once you get levels, zerks, PD/Shiv, and levels in your steroid (for most champs), the 40% AS is relatively worse (if you compare how much you get from runes/masteries/levels compared to items, AD is generally primarily comes from items). Same with the 20 flat ArPen since the more armour people get, the less damage it provides (relatively speaking). Since for BT you're looking at a 3rd item at best, Ghostblade as a 3rd item isn't that great.
For example, when Graves goes IE/Ghostblade (or Lucian before), what's important are the build paths: he gets an early brutaliser for the boost provided by the CDR+ArPen for his abilities, then IE (buying crit last) to get some more AD to keep trucking. Once he has both, he's generally maxed Q so he wants something else to do once his burst is gone, eg. crit and AS to go with the AD he already has. At that point completing ghostblade and timing its active right is the cheapest alternative he can find, since it's ~1400 gold and provides much more stats than Zeal. There isn't really a point for, say, Cait to build IE -> ghostblade for example since she doesn't have the brutaliser buy early on.
BT first is generally a bad idea. BotRK first is better on some champs (no-brainer on Vayne, arguable on Twitch, and it can be good on Kog although Triforce and IE are both usually better), but as a 3rd item, in general LW is better than both for damage, and at the 4th item you're lucky if you don't need to build a defensive item. At that stage however there are less skirmishes, more pushes and such, and without sustain it's harder for you to deal with poke (especially when Syndra, Xerath, Gnar, etc. are popular), sustain which a single dblade won't provide.
TL;DR: if it's purely about maximising damage without building it first you'd get Ghostblade as your 4th offensive item usually, and at this point in the game sustain is more likely needed and the stats provided by GB start to fall off.
You can actually kite better if you have a GB or an extra PD. The real deal killer for BT are all the times that you never even exhaust the shield when a fight ends. In those extremely one sided fights where either my team destroy the other team, or your frontline melts and you run all the way back to base to defend by yourself.
I didn't even say don't buy lifesteal. I just don't see the point now that elixir grants it.
This is my last post on this topic. If no one even wants to try it, I'm okay with it. I will continue using it and just wanted to share my success with the community.
On January 19 2015 05:05 AsianEcksDragon wrote: You can actually kite better if you have a GB or an extra PD. The real deal killer for BT are all the times that you never even exhaust the shield when a fight ends. In those extremely one sided fights where either my team destroy the other team, or your frontline melts and you run all the way back to base to defend by yourself.
I didn't even say don't buy lifesteal. I just don't see the point now that elixir grants it.
This is my last post on this topic. If no one even wants to try it, I'm okay with it. I will continue using it and just wanted to share my success with the community.
Kite what, flash-stuns or random Syndra ult in face? Or probably, Gnar?
Can get Runaan's Hurricane first item with same success.
Could at least show us some replays to share success.
On January 19 2015 05:05 wei2coolman wrote: I feel like before the IE nerf, there was an argument to be made for getting a 2nd IE instead of BT. However, that 5% nerf made that less appealing.
The IE nerf came with a PD buff of 5%. It's actually more cost efficient so I only started doing double PD because of it. Do I like having 80 fewer AD. Hell no. But an extra 35% crit and 50% attack speed is an insane amount of DPS at 6 item. I would build it even if I have to stay back a bit and wait for everyone to burn their cooldowns. Even in plat, I've seen so many teams get overconfident because they appear to be winning a fight early.
EPT
