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[Patch 1.0.0.145: Rengar] General Discussion - Page 150

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arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
August 26 2012 17:12 GMT
#2981
On August 26 2012 22:03 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 21:55 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
if wukong dealt magic damage he would be OP

he's held back because he deals only one type of damage -> physical

Make his ulti deal true damage. And refresh on kill.

That made me cringe irl at the thought
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 26 2012 17:18 GMT
#2982
Rengr pretty good in dominion. The fast pace and his super mobility through the jungle make him really strong.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
August 26 2012 17:21 GMT
#2983
On August 27 2012 02:01 phyvo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 01:56 Seuss wrote:
On August 26 2012 21:49 Alaric wrote:
His laning is good but he's a sustainless AD caster. He loses to pretty much any top laner with a combination of better sustained damage, sticking power, and sustain. Can't kill anybody who buys some armor and benefits from sustain. Also hard to use his best combo (aa->Q->aa->E->aa until the debuffs end) because it's very easy to disengage from it or deny Wu a lot of aa.
He trashes bads almost as efficiently as Pantheon and dunks on casters and other champs for whom it's awkward to itemize early armor though.


Technically Wukong should do fine against targets with armor if he uses APen Marks/Quints. The key thing to remember is that % Reduction is applied before Flat Penetration. If Wukong's opponent comes to lane with Cloth Armor, Armor Seals, and defensive masteries it's as if they only have 8-10 armor. The problem is this only applies if you can Q before E.

Wukong's other issue is that he lacks sustain while also having low base health regen and armor.

Mogwai's probably the best person to speak to why Wukong isn't popular/a good pick, but those are the things I've picked up on while trying to learn top lane.


I thought that we recently discovered that % reduction was actually applied after flat pen. When was the last time we tested this?


No, we discovered that % Reduction is applied after Flat Reduction. Both forms of reduction are applied before any type of penetration.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 17:24:34
August 26 2012 17:24 GMT
#2984
On August 27 2012 02:01 phyvo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 01:56 Seuss wrote:
On August 26 2012 21:49 Alaric wrote:
His laning is good but he's a sustainless AD caster. He loses to pretty much any top laner with a combination of better sustained damage, sticking power, and sustain. Can't kill anybody who buys some armor and benefits from sustain. Also hard to use his best combo (aa->Q->aa->E->aa until the debuffs end) because it's very easy to disengage from it or deny Wu a lot of aa.
He trashes bads almost as efficiently as Pantheon and dunks on casters and other champs for whom it's awkward to itemize early armor though.


Technically Wukong should do fine against targets with armor if he uses APen Marks/Quints. The key thing to remember is that % Reduction is applied before Flat Penetration. If Wukong's opponent comes to lane with Cloth Armor, Armor Seals, and defensive masteries it's as if they only have 8-10 armor. The problem is this only applies if you can Q before E.

Wukong's other issue is that he lacks sustain while also having low base health regen and armor.

Mogwai's probably the best person to speak to why Wukong isn't popular/a good pick, but those are the things I've picked up on while trying to learn top lane.


I thought that we recently discovered that % reduction was actually applied after flat pen. When was the last time we tested this?


We didn't recently discover this - we discovered it right after they changed it which is more than 1½ years ago if I'm not mistaken?

The thing is that Wukong's Q is reduction rather than penetration, so it will be applied before penetration no matter if it is % or flat.

Edit: Oh, it was already answered..
wat
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 17:41:35
August 26 2012 17:40 GMT
#2985
On August 27 2012 02:24 EquilasH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 02:01 phyvo wrote:
On August 27 2012 01:56 Seuss wrote:
On August 26 2012 21:49 Alaric wrote:
His laning is good but he's a sustainless AD caster. He loses to pretty much any top laner with a combination of better sustained damage, sticking power, and sustain. Can't kill anybody who buys some armor and benefits from sustain. Also hard to use his best combo (aa->Q->aa->E->aa until the debuffs end) because it's very easy to disengage from it or deny Wu a lot of aa.
He trashes bads almost as efficiently as Pantheon and dunks on casters and other champs for whom it's awkward to itemize early armor though.


Technically Wukong should do fine against targets with armor if he uses APen Marks/Quints. The key thing to remember is that % Reduction is applied before Flat Penetration. If Wukong's opponent comes to lane with Cloth Armor, Armor Seals, and defensive masteries it's as if they only have 8-10 armor. The problem is this only applies if you can Q before E.

Wukong's other issue is that he lacks sustain while also having low base health regen and armor.

Mogwai's probably the best person to speak to why Wukong isn't popular/a good pick, but those are the things I've picked up on while trying to learn top lane.


I thought that we recently discovered that % reduction was actually applied after flat pen. When was the last time we tested this?


We didn't recently discover this - we discovered it right after they changed it which is more than 1½ years ago if I'm not mistaken?

The thing is that Wukong's Q is reduction rather than penetration, so it will be applied before penetration no matter if it is % or flat.

Edit: Oh, it was already answered..


I am pretty sure you might as well play Wukong as jungle or mid at this point. His top is pretty bad while sustained based lanes and Darius run wild.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
August 26 2012 18:03 GMT
#2986
Except he needs the farm of a solo lane to do his job, so jungling him against anyone except baddies isn't going to work that well.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 18:08:12
August 26 2012 18:06 GMT
#2987
On August 27 2012 03:03 zer0das wrote:
Except he needs the farm of a solo lane to do his job, so jungling him against anyone except baddies isn't going to work that well.

Fiddles jungles just fine as long as he's not invaded. They're kinda similar in that they both have good AoE ults.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
August 26 2012 18:21 GMT
#2988
On August 27 2012 03:06 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 03:03 zer0das wrote:
Except he needs the farm of a solo lane to do his job, so jungling him against anyone except baddies isn't going to work that well.

Fiddles jungles just fine as long as he's not invaded. They're kinda similar in that they both have good AoE ults.


part of what makes fiddle jungle okay, even without high farm, is a 3s point-and-click fear and an aoe silence
wukong is not really suited to jungle play
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 26 2012 18:24 GMT
#2989
On August 27 2012 03:21 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 03:06 obesechicken13 wrote:
On August 27 2012 03:03 zer0das wrote:
Except he needs the farm of a solo lane to do his job, so jungling him against anyone except baddies isn't going to work that well.

Fiddles jungles just fine as long as he's not invaded. They're kinda similar in that they both have good AoE ults.


part of what makes fiddle jungle okay, even without high farm, is a 3s point-and-click fear and an aoe silence
wukong is not really suited to jungle play


True, but his top lane is pretty bad right now. Might as well play him mid.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
August 26 2012 18:38 GMT
#2990
i think wukong has a lot of strong matchups both top and mid
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 26 2012 18:44 GMT
#2991
He has strong match-ups top. Are they popular picks atm, though? I don't think so, except maybe Rumble.
And mid... well, mid, you could as well run Talon, Pantheon or Xin. They lack his decoy, but everything else they're simply better than him. They don't have his crazy-ass AoE tho so I guess you could pick him in some comps...
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 18:47:12
August 26 2012 18:46 GMT
#2992
On August 27 2012 03:44 Alaric wrote:
He has strong match-ups top. Are they popular picks atm, though? I don't think so, except maybe Rumble.
And mid... well, mid, you could as well run Talon, Pantheon or Xin. They lack his decoy, but everything else they're simply better than him. They don't have his crazy-ass AoE tho so I guess you could pick him in some comps...


I am pretty sure Rumble destroys Wukong on top.

For mid, Wukong feels pretty good (based on my very limited experience with him). He scales much stronger than Talon and Pantheon and he has an escape. His roam is pretty sad though.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 18:49:45
August 26 2012 18:48 GMT
#2993
But I don't think you send an AD lane bully/assassin mid to scale well, rather to destroy their opponent (and deny the opposing AP his power peak, which is usually midgame). And Panth/Talon are stronger in lane and when roaming.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 18:52:51
August 26 2012 18:52 GMT
#2994
On August 27 2012 03:48 Alaric wrote:
But I don't think you send an AD lane bully/assassin mid to scale well. And Panth/Talon are stronger in lane and when roaming.


Or you can bully the lane AND scale well. You don't have to roam that much if you scale well.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
EquilasH
Profile Joined April 2009
Denmark2142 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 18:58:21
August 26 2012 18:57 GMT
#2995
Have all you guys who are saying Wukong has too many bad matchups top actually played Wukong a decent amount?

His only 2 bad matchups against the popular picks are Irelia and Darius tbh (from my experience he lanes fine against Malphite, for example).

Edit: Also wtf @Sufficiency - is Wukong's roam bad all of a sudden? A stealth+ a crazy AoE ult....
wat
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 19:13:24
August 26 2012 19:10 GMT
#2996
On August 27 2012 03:44 Alaric wrote:
He has strong match-ups top. Are they popular picks atm, though? I don't think so, except maybe Rumble.
And mid... well, mid, you could as well run Talon, Pantheon or Xin. They lack his decoy, but everything else they're simply better than him. They don't have his crazy-ass AoE tho so I guess you could pick him in some comps...


warwick and irelia are both pretty good matchups for wu. kennen vlad are great matchups
i think he can beat jayce (lol)
less often picked that he can beat: trynd, gp, teemo

he does have pretty frequently picked bad matchups tho. the easiest remedy i've found is to not blind pick wukong or pick him into his bad matchups. don't pick against lee, riven, panth, nunu ever. don't blind pick if lee or riven or rumble are available

and darius obv
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 26 2012 19:18 GMT
#2997
From experience, Warwick beats Wukong (I explained the reasoning on that in the Wu thread), because you can't deal with him when both are oom because of his passive, and if he just stacks armor and buy pots you won't run him oom easily. As FH is core to WW starting chain vest and getting glacial doesn't impede him and he still gets mana out of it to even help his sustain.

Teemo is dunk material but really annoying because you can't EQ a good Teemo, who'll blind you before your Q can get used and then run away like the obnoxious midget that he is. Take him by surprise and you'll trash him no problem tho (and he doesn't deserve any better).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Celial
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
2602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 19:38:48
August 26 2012 19:37 GMT
#2998
Hm you notice that TSM is currently in super serious tryhard mode... TOO is taking soloqueue so fking serious lol, flaming every single misplay of his teammates etc. Before he was always laughing and cracking jokes when his team fucked up, but now he is pretty bitter and kinda raging about it =/

Edit: He is also using "tournament builds" now instead of his usual builds.
Do not regret. Always forward, never back.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 19:39:26
August 26 2012 19:38 GMT
#2999
On August 27 2012 04:10 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 03:44 Alaric wrote:
He has strong match-ups top. Are they popular picks atm, though? I don't think so, except maybe Rumble.
And mid... well, mid, you could as well run Talon, Pantheon or Xin. They lack his decoy, but everything else they're simply better than him. They don't have his crazy-ass AoE tho so I guess you could pick him in some comps...


warwick and irelia are both pretty good matchups for wu. kennen vlad are great matchups
i think he can beat jayce (lol)
less often picked that he can beat: trynd, gp, teemo

he does have pretty frequently picked bad matchups tho. the easiest remedy i've found is to not blind pick wukong or pick him into his bad matchups. don't pick against lee, riven, panth, nunu ever. don't blind pick if lee or riven or rumble are available

and darius obv

i doubt that wukong could beat jayce just because of how easy it is for jayce to disengage.

edit: and then switch to ranged and shoot him in the back.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17303 Posts
August 26 2012 19:47 GMT
#3000
On August 27 2012 04:37 Celial wrote:
Before he was always laughing and cracking jokes when his team fucked up, but now he is pretty bitter and kinda raging about it =/

No, he was a dick like this before, too. Just reverting to old habits.
twitch.tv/cratonz
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