On December 04 2024 06:41 crbox wrote:
I saw a youtube video about this so I thought I'd check on TL if anyone had any non-biased information.

Boy was I wrong!

What do you mean by that? I feel the discussion here is pretty decent.

mounteast02

10 Posts

13 hours ago

#42

It seems the president had used military forces to try to control the legislative branch, so it had to be a coup. I will try to find the reputable news source in english for it.

To be honest, I though he is going to declare war on north korea when I saw the news headline that the martial rule being enacted, relieved that is not the case.

Sermokala

United States13662 Posts

9 hours ago

#43

The military did enter parliament and the police surrounded the building. The reasons that make me pretty sure that they were not informed about what's going on/weren't supporting the coup attempt are in the videos, although I do encourage others to watch them. First they exist, the military was taping itself while doing things, second no one stopped lawmakers or their staff getting in. A guy livestreamed himself crawling over the barricade believing this was the moment he would become a martyr, everyone on that side recognized him and he just walked into the building. Third when they began moving further into the building they were stopped by staffers blowing a fire extinguisher at them. There is no universe where that stops a soilder hopped up on adrenaline with a gun who's there to save their country from the enemy within. Fourth after the vote everyone leaves. It's the most wild moment of "well I guess it's over" that everyone follows the law and exists. The protestors outside stayed longer than the military. Also the military wasn't fully kitted, you can see a lot of uniforms that don't have that parade style look to them that coup armies have for the media.

I think the military took the word of the president literally that there was a north Korean infiltration and then when confronted with easily verified lawmakers and their staff went "yeah those are the people who are suppose to be here". Then when martial law was lifted they all went home because that's how the law works and they were told this is the law because lawmakers did law thing.

The biggest thing about much more recent coups is the inherent deniability that the perpetrators can keep about the coup until it succeeds. We've got people here now trying to deny what is and isn't a coup because of how much a blender post jan6th has been in the US.

Simberto

Germany11234 Posts

7 hours ago

#44

Honestly, that is kind of a wild story.

It also weirdly enough gives you a lot of confidence in the resilience of the South Korean democracy and rule of law. It seems that most of the military people will, when in doubt, err in favor of following the law.

Belisarius

Australia6200 Posts

4 hours ago

#45

It shows you how crucial it is for the military to be apolitical, with control of its own personnel structure to maintain its own values. This is, imo, one of the most important pieces of a resilient democracy.

It's also why an authoritarian party attempting to root-and-branch the military is one of the scariest precursors. All you have left after that is the common-sense of the soldier on the ground, which isn't guaranteed if the proto-dictator has the forethought to station the loyal legions in Rome.

JimmyJRaynor

Canada16217 Posts

3 hours ago

#46

On December 04 2024 01:53 Salazarz wrote:
honestly, I think there's at least some truth to that. I don't think it's a coincide that our politics are steadily degenerating into stupid us vs them between the two major parties at a time when the US dems vs reps tensions are the highest they've ever been;

i'd say this is a prisoner of the moment kind of statement. The Dems and Republicans have been each claiming the other is destroying the country since my grandfather was 10 years old and probably before that. Reagan's belief in the Laffer Curve and his Voodoo economics was going to destroy the country. Carter rescinding punishment for deserters was going to destroy the country... Abolishing the draft was going to destroy the country... Having an actor as a President was going to destroy the country...etc etc etc.

The reality is, Reagan's fiscal policy mirrored the policy of left wing PM of Canada Pierre Trudeau. That whole " A Time For Choosing" speech Reagan gave was just BS. So were the speeches the left wing Trudeau gave on the same topics because both pursued nearly identical policies. Both were immensely popular in their respective countries and claimed to be beacons of hope for their respective left-wing and right-wing followers. Their alleged diametrically opposed philosophies resulted in the same policies on both sides. YAWN.

1964: A Time For Choosing
Yes , folks, it was 1964 and it was the end of the USA as we know it because the Democrats want out of Vietnam! By the end of that speech I was like "hand me a machine gun and point me at the commies!" LOL.

This messaging serves to keep people distracted from real issues. The real issue is, there is no 3rd party in the USA. The Dems and Republicans are like Coke and Pepsi. They pretend to be enemies. In reality, the Vice President of Coke will leave to work at Pepsi as the President in a nanosecond. Reagan is halted in his rise to the top.. what does he do? He becomes a Republican and becomes President.

And, I'll give the Dems and Republicans credit... their fake "Good Cop// Bad Cop routine" fools hundreds of millions of people.

oBlade

United States5096 Posts

2 hours ago

#47

The token actions yesterday looked basically like people on all sides doing the minimum they thought necessary not to get fired. Unfortunately for Yoon's case this will probably lead to his firing anyway. If it was an attempted power move to level the playing field, end reciprocal investigations, and get the split government working together again, it seems to have failed. The surprise factor is also gone so any outside chance of him actually having worked out specifics and understood loyalty and plans to execute the first time would not work on a second attempt (without jinxing I hope). His staff also want to resign and hang him out to dry so there's not many routes for the same coalition to win the next election, which could be sooner than 2027.

Biff The Understudy

France7775 Posts

1 hour ago

#48

On December 04 2024 22:03 Belisarius wrote:
It shows you how crucial it is for the military to be apolitical, with control of its own personnel structure to maintain its own values. This is, imo, one of the most important pieces of a resilient democracy.

It's also why an authoritarian party attempting to root-and-branch the military is one of the scariest precursors. All you have left after that is the common-sense of the soldier on the ground, which isn't guaranteed if the proto-dictator has the forethought to station the loyal legions in Rome.

User name checks out.

That being said I don’t really know how much common sense of the soldiers on the ground matters. They are trained all their life to obey orders. I think the integrity of their hierarchy, and the loyalty of the officers to the principles of democracy is much more important.

Salazarz

Korea (South)2562 Posts

1 hour ago

#49

On December 05 2024 00:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:

Show nested quote +

Every Korean male does the same mandatory service, the number of 'lifer' professional soldiers we have is quite low. Hierarchy and obeying orders are obviously important in the military, but there's also quite a big focus on how Korea was established as a modern state, the struggles with military dictatorships we've had, the purges and the repressions, and how loyalty to individual should never supersede loyalty to the country and its people.

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