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dyhb
United States829 Posts
On September 09 2026 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: I just listed some ways that I think it has been. Or that Israel deserves the presumption of such until such time as Netanyahu leaves and a different administration releases a report like the Agranat Commission.But do you even agree that Israel's behavior has in many ways been morally repugnant? | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1844 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/10/secret-systems-used-by-israel-in-mass-killings-of-gaza-civilians-revealed-in-new-film Quote addressing some interpretations that people who spend a lot of time justifying Israel's actions continuosly make in this thread: The directors stressed the film’s focus was not on “sporadic war crimes committed by rogue soldiers”. “It is on the orders themselves, the policies, the accepted practices, the language and logic that make those practices possible, and the people who operate within them,” they said. “The system and its cogs.” | ||
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aseq
Netherlands4024 Posts
What we really need to see from Israel is their higher orders, their structural plan for the future, and how they see their actions panning out over multiple years. Because terrible as it is, in genocideland 70k are rookie numbers. What do they have in mind for the other 1.93 million? How do they stabilize? Are 2 states w/ dmz ever on the table, etc. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14218 Posts
The real Genocide is the long term economic damage on a structural level that Isreal has decided to go with. The comprehensive leveling of cities, the destruction of farming infrastructure and the arms themselves, the ethnic cleansing of the west bank. Sherman marched to the sea and over half a year ended the ability of the American South to resist the northern armies. Isreal has done it over a much longer time, with specifically developed weapons, on a systemic level with organization intended to keep this up for years. There is no end goal for Isreal, they want to make the situation worse for palestinians and better for them. After all the decades they've come to the conclusion that there won't be a ends, that there are only the means left. | ||
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oBlade
United States6626 Posts
On September 03 2026 23:31 Ryzel wrote: To have a serious conversation with someone with an opposing viewpoint on this issue, you need to find common ground by answering one question: Does it bother you that Palestinians are dying and/or being forcefully relocated? No gotchas, “yes, but…” answers are fine, not a trick question. If the answer is no then that’s fine too; people don’t participate in this discussion to find people to morally judge and everyone will appreciate the lack of virtue signaling. There’s plenty of room for discussion branching from this question, but if two people don’t share the same (honest) answer to it then their arguments (and time) are wasted on each other. If you put an "only" in this it becomes a perfect basis. Does it only bother you that Palestinians are dying? Then you look and say, why are Palestinians dying. Then you can go okay, why did Hamas start a war? Because they have genocidal intentions towards Israel, is first. Next there is but wait, their war is legitimate because Israel are doing colonialism. The problem is Israel gave back Gaza, Israel had been giving permits more liberally even though they had no obligation to, Israel is 20% Arab, and Gaza is 0% Jewish. The only "settler colonialism" you can find, you have to look to the West Bank. And you can argue about the West Bank, but Hamas isn't there. It's the PA. The only connection is they're both Palestinian. So if Hamas starting a war with Israel is part of a response to that (Being at war with Palestine isn't a pass to kill all Palestinians any more than being at war with Germany is an excuse to kill all Germans, but there is still such a thing as being at war), that actually strengthens the notion that Israel should be at war with "Palestine" rather than just at war with Hamas, which Gazans voted into power in Gaza as their plurality choice. So I find one of the quotes that I had to look up to verify how criminal they were, to sound almost exactly like how we view the most morally prosecuted wars, like against the nation of Germany who still (right or wrong) bears an ethos of guilt. “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog stated, adding, “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat.” It's not impossible to start a war and then cry uncle when losing it but Hamas wouldn't even do that. The 10/7 attacks, in proportion, would be like if 30,000 people died on 9/11. (Which is coincidentally near how many would have died if the towers had given way instantly and there was no evacuation.) That is starting a war. That's not like Israel defied the fair play of some eye-for-an-eye tradition. That's the level of immediately neutralize the guy who is randomly poking eyes out. Hamas would have liked to do 10/7 attacks every day of the year but they were bested. So now we're in a situation where Israel has half the strip secured, and there's a general ceasefire but Hamas still won't surrender and won't disarm from the region Israel hasn't moved into, so Israel is slowly/surgically removing remaining Hamas elements. We think there might be war crimes and want something done, that's completely rational. It can't just be the winners write history and get away with anything. Should there be impartial international investigations during the resolution of this conflict? Yes. But just "Israel stop and leave now" is not practical or realistic. If someone wants some kind of international force to come in and disarm Hamas, and patrol/occupy the strip instead of Israel doing it, while the region/international community rebuilds Gaza, and also have the international community investigating both sides, that would make sense. That would be great. People who cared would have done that years ago but it's a hot potato problem and Israel has been left holding the potato. Then they get blamed by anti-semites who view Hamas or Palestine as the ideal/quintessential oppressed, and want to perpetuate that cause rather than ever solving it. Now if the objection to a comprehensive plan like that were the int'l community can't just come in and disarm Hamas because they're the legitimate government, well then, as a legitimate government, then they are losing a war they started in no uncertain terms by doing an act of war, and don't get special excuses when it goes against them. There's not one correct solution. But the truth is there are parties who have objected, and still object, to essentially correct solutions, and time is bearing out that ultimately the solution has to be forced by those with the power: that Gaza at least has to be an internationally recognized free state (the objection here is it's "only" Gaza so it means Palestine loses the resistance), that it can't BOTH be armed AND ruled by militant Islamists, and that it can't also be occupied/gatekept by Israel (this means region has to rebuild and Egypt has to let normal relations happen through Rafah). On September 09 2026 06:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Ghandour Hospital in Al-Nabatiyah Al-Fawqa in Lebanon was destroyed by Israel while dyhb and I were having that conversation. Another war crime to add to the incredibly long list. The hospital had been abandoned as a hospital, and was being used by Hezbollah. Wasn't it? | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2907 Posts
The Houthis now control the red sea. It's pretty big news for the region. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3410 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1844 Posts
The usual party line is "well USA was warned about 9/11" or "if all warnings are listened to everyone would be on high alert all the time". Well, motherfucker, if you have had 20 years of dealing with Hamas up until then, and they are your mortal enemy and "human animals" then maybe you should be on high alert ALL THE TIME. Plus, it's really funny because the same folks are perfectly willing to say "I'm not a fan of Nethyanahu" but are completely unwilling to blame him or IDF for any aspects of Oct 7th, probably because that goes against the "Hamas and Palestinians are responsible for everything and anything done to punish them is justifiable". | ||
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dyhb
United States829 Posts
This might be the start of something good from Mr "I found a Gazan that said they were just gathering firewood" as his basis of evidence, but we'll have to see if future conversations bear that out. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1844 Posts
These kinds were blown up, you said "let's wait for investigation", I said "IDF will never investigate, this is murder", the facts more then a year later are "IDF didn't investigate" so it's clearly murder and you have the audacity to bring up how you justified killing 2 kids, 8 and 11 old boys. I'd say I feel sorry for you but that's not true, I just feel contempt for a sociopath. | ||
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dyhb
United States829 Posts
On September 17 2026 04:52 Jankisa wrote: So you agree with me. A Gazan said that they were just gathering firewood, and that was enough for you to conclude that "it's clearly murder." The whole Hamas using child soldiers and Hamas hiding among the civilian population is a little too difficult for you, so you take the easy way out.Jesus, you are a fucked up person. These kinds were blown up, you said "let's wait for investigation", I said "IDF will never investigate, this is murder", the facts more then a year later are "IDF didn't investigate" so it's clearly murder and you have the audacity to bring up how you justified killing 2 kids, 8 and 11 old boys. I'd say I feel sorry for you but that's not true, I just feel contempt for a sociopath. Let's both agree that Hamas laying down its arms and letting international peacekeepers into Gaza will aid with locating and identifying people in connection with these claims. Imagine all the additional military and investigative personnel available when the ceasefire terms are enforced/concluded, as well as civilian pressure aided by a future non-Netanyahu-led government! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 17 2026 05:04 dyhb wrote: So you agree with me. A Gazan said that they were just gathering firewood, and that was enough for you to conclude that "it's clearly murder." The whole Hamas using child soldiers and Hamas hiding among the civilian population is a little too difficult for you, so you take the easy way out. Let's both agree that Hamas laying down its arms and letting international peacekeepers into Gaza will aid with locating and identifying people in connection with these claims. Imagine all the additional military and investigative personnel available when the ceasefire terms are enforced/concluded, as well as civilian pressure aided by a future non-Netanyahu-led government! How is that happening lol? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 17 2026 04:52 Jankisa wrote: Jesus, you are a fucked up person. These kinds were blown up, you said "let's wait for investigation", I said "IDF will never investigate, this is murder", the facts more then a year later are "IDF didn't investigate" so it's clearly murder and you have the audacity to bring up how you justified killing 2 kids, 8 and 11 old boys. I'd say I feel sorry for you but that's not true, I just feel contempt for a sociopath. It would be the biggest PR win for the IDF to showcase that this and similar incidents were justifiable That they consistently cannot, or will not show this tells something of its own tale | ||
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dyhb
United States829 Posts
On September 17 2026 05:22 WombaT wrote: Nothing is really basic when the witnesses and testimony are locked beyond a terrorist-controlled state that does not abide by the ceasefire terms. Israel and Hamas are basically still at war. Israeli strikes and Hamas infiltration beyond the yellow line are weekly stories. It's difficult to ask for independent, transparent, and civilian-led investigations when there isn't a post-war peacetime state. Kind of like asking Putin and Zelensky to send some soldiers and officials to the Netherlands to testify in an incident affecting civilians. There is a chance that post-Netanyahu post-war stability yields civilian pressure for non-military investigation of claims like "crossed the yellow line and approached the forces in a manner that posed an immediate threat." The Israeli people certainly want persistent good relations with the West, which are jeopardized by opaque internal investigations and statements.You don’t need any of that to do a basic investigation into shooting two kids dead | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3410 Posts
On September 17 2026 05:26 WombaT wrote: It would be the biggest PR win for the IDF to showcase that this and similar incidents were justifiable That they consistently cannot, or will not show this tells something of its own tale The burden of proof goalpost is conveniently always tantalizingly close but never crossed to satisfy IDF apologists. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3410 Posts
On September 17 2026 06:06 dyhb wrote: The Israeli people certainly want persistent good relations with the West, which are jeopardized by opaque internal investigations and statements. Remind me why Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are still in power crying for a river of blood weekly if Israel's so concerned about PR? | ||
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dyhb
United States829 Posts
On September 17 2026 06:13 LightSpectra wrote: Did you read "a future non-Netanyahu-led government!" or "post-Netanyahu post-war stability?" How did you interpret these statements given current government figures?Remind me why Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are still in power crying for a river of blood weekly if Israel's so concerned about PR? On September 17 2026 06:08 LightSpectra wrote: The burden of proof for Hamas fellow travelers and anti-Israel types is that Israel is guilty until proven innocent. Anybody with a brain should object to that framing.The burden of proof goalpost is conveniently always tantalizingly close but never crossed to satisfy IDF apologists. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3410 Posts
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dyhb
United States829 Posts
On September 17 2026 06:20 LightSpectra wrote: He's a callous political operator that prioritizes his continued tenure in the Prime Minister's office. He's betrayed so many other political parties that potential allies refuse to work with him in political coalition.Why didn't Netanyahu sack them the moment they said something dehumanizing about Palestinians, or even better, refuse to coalesce with their parties because it would jeopardize their relationship with the west? How do you interpret "a future non-Netanyahu-led government" or "post-Netanyahu post-war stability?" Just use the ordinary meaning of such phrases. | ||
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